Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2009-01-11

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 chromatic s1n, looks like you call the recursion_limit on a Parrot interpreter from PIR, passing in the new max depth.
00:00 chromatic Whiteknight, not all GCs might use arenas.
00:00 chromatic Oh, right.  Nevermind.  Read too fast, thought too slowly.
00:00 s1n chromatic: okay, but that kinda sounds tough if you aren't comfortable doing PIR
00:00 Whiteknight I can think of a bunch of functions off the top of my head that could be abstracted away like that:
00:01 gravity joined #parrot
00:01 chromatic s1n, if you aren't comfortable doing PIR, a lot of Parrot will be tough though....
00:01 chromatic Whiteknight, let's set a goal then of describing on the wiki a more idealized environment.
00:01 Whiteknight Okay, I like that
00:01 s1n chromatic: i would agree :) that's why i was looking for some documentation that shows how to do it
00:01 * Whiteknight definitely likes wikis
00:02 chromatic For example, what kind of API would you need to migrate to an incremental GC in pieces?
00:02 chromatic Or at least what kind of abstraction would you need to start managing PMCs in a different sort of structure than Arenas and Pools?
00:02 chromatic s1n, the best example I can show you right now is t/op/gc.t.  Search for recursion_limit in there.
00:02 s1n chromatic: thanks
00:03 chromatic Patches or suggested patches very welcome against docs or docs/book or Das Book.
00:04 Whiteknight chromatic, do trace_sys_mem and find_common_prefix really need to be in the API?
00:05 chromatic I don't think so.
00:05 Whiteknight I don't mean to nitpick, I'm just trying to get a sense about what is going to be going where
00:05 chromatic The API will likely be "get a chunk of memory", "free a chunk of memory", "run GC in whole or in part", "initialize the proper GC", and "uninitialize the current GC".
00:06 chromatic There are more functions than that, but most other things can be more private.
00:07 jonathan Don't forget the pile of fun that is timely destruction, which likely needs to figure into the API somewhere.
00:07 jonathan (If the GC is going to handle that and not block hooks.)
00:07 Whiteknight timely destruction is a nightmare
00:08 dalek r35367 | allison++ | trunk (5 files):
00:08 dalek : [pdd27mmd] Merging the calling conventions branch into trunk for r33976 to r35366.
00:08 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35367
00:08 Whiteknight hmmm... I wonder if allison meant "[calling_conventions]" instead of "[pdd27md]"
00:09 jonathan I suspect so.
00:09 AndyA joined #parrot
00:12 dalek r35368 | allison++ | branches:
00:12 dalek : Removing calling conventions development branch from the repository
00:12 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35368
00:12 dalek r35369 | allison++ | branches:
00:12 dalek : Removing calling conventions development branch from the repository
00:13 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35369
00:15 jonathan Hmm. Did that patch partly implement :lookahead?
00:15 Whiteknight that one from allison?
00:15 Whiteknight what does :lookahead do?
00:15 Whiteknight or, what will it do when it's implemented?
00:15 jonathan Help Rakudo get stuff right.
00:15 jonathan I don't actually know beyond that. ;-)
00:15 jonathan It *should* be in PDD03
00:16 * Whiteknight goes off to read yet another PDD
00:17 Whiteknight nope, no mention of :lookahead in any of the PDDs
00:18 jonathan Meh. Documentations FAIL.
00:22 Whiteknight who would know what :lookahead is supposed to do?
00:23 Whiteknight If it's something we're supposed to have, I'd like to be able to keep it in the back of my mind when I do other cc-related work
00:23 jonathan pmichaud and allison I would guess.
00:24 jonathan We should bully someone who does into documenting it. ;-)
00:31 Whiteknight i would document it if somebody explained it to me
00:43 davidfetter joined #parrot
00:53 * Whiteknight really needs to get the newest version of Padre
00:58 Whiteknight what I really need is good PIR syntax highlighting
01:24 Infinoid what I really need is apple pie.
01:24 Whiteknight pie qould be awesome
01:29 DietCoke anyone know what I can expect post-cc mergeback?
01:30 DietCoke cotto: for the find_global -> get_hll_global conversion.
01:31 DietCoke that find_g variant took strings. the get_hll takes a pmc
01:32 DietCoke I baked an apple in our fireplace this evening. that's as close as I'm getting to apple pie for a while.
01:32 dalek r35370 | allison++ | branches/pdd09gc_part2 (136 files):
01:32 dalek : [pdd09gc] Bringing the pdd09gc_part2 branch up-to-date with trunk r35369.
01:32 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35370
01:34 GeJ purl Synopses ?
01:34 purl Synopses is http://perlcabal.org/syn/
01:44 pmichaud :lookahead is described in the thread http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.​internals/browse_thread/thread/fce44e38aa8​56be9/96417ed37799cd37?#96417ed37799cd37
01:44 shorten pmichaud's url is at http://xrl.us/beb6vb
01:48 Whiteknight thanks pmichaud
01:48 Whiteknight I would like to at least be aware of it while I'm doing the cc work
01:49 pmichaud that's wise.
01:51 Whiteknight Actually, I think i can lay a lot of groundwork for :lookahead tonightish
01:52 DietCoke google svn down? bah.
01:53 dalek r35371 | coke++ | trunk/languages/APL/tools:
01:53 dalek : fix APL against removed opcodes
01:53 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35371
01:54 DietCoke (hurm, no, it's just the web.)
02:00 Whiteknight I used to have this terrible problem with Comcast, where their firewalls occasionally would block port 80
02:00 Whiteknight so I could be on IRC, AIM and even HTTPS, but not look at regular webpages
02:03 dalek r35372 | Whiteknight++ | trunk (2 files):
02:03 dalek : [Core] add some basic infrastructure for :lookahead parameters, although it's all commented-out now
02:03 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35372
02:32 dalek r35373 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/classes:
02:32 dalek : [rakudo]: add Positional/Associative checks for array/hash parameters.
02:32 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35373
02:34 dalek r35374 | allison++ | branches/pdd09gc_part2 (4 files):
02:34 dalek : [pdd09gc] Bringing the pdd09gc_part2 branch up-to-date with trunk r35373.
02:34 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35374
02:35 allison joined #parrot
02:35 Whiteknight hello allison
02:35 allison hi
02:35 Whiteknight I always feel bad about sending you so many emails
02:36 Whiteknight god knows I get enough email, I hate inflicting it on other people
02:36 allison I've got a pretty good process now that means I always get to every email in my inbox (just not necessarily the same day)
02:37 allison in general, I'd rather get email than have you stuck on something :)
02:49 Whiteknight I just sent you one about your cc work. Can we start converting Parrot_PCCINVOKE -> Parrot_pcc_invoke_method_from_c_args in trunk, or should we make abranch?
02:54 Whiteknight allison, I also have a question about :lookahead (which I'm idly fidgeting with). How is that supposed to work?
02:55 Whiteknight like, does it look for positional first, or named first? or, do we wait till the end of the list and just bind whatever is left over?
02:55 allison Whiteknight: let's do the pcc_invoke conversions in a short-lived branch
02:56 Whiteknight okay, branch is fine. I'm just worried that it's a job that could stretch on for a long time
02:57 Whiteknight because we're going to change afew over, build, test, repeat
02:57 Whiteknight I'll make the branch now and get crackin'
02:59 dalek r35375 | Whiteknight++ | branches:
02:59 dalek : Creating a branch to convert Parrot_PCCINVOKE to the new semantics
02:59 allison Whiteknight: well, how many instances of Parrot_PCCINVOKE are there? (quick grep or ack over trunk)
02:59 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35375
03:00 allison Whiteknight: I don't want this branch to last more than a couple days, so we'll merge in whatever is done and stable by then
03:00 allison it's okay if there are still remaining calls to Parrot_PCCINVOKE, that's why I created the new call path as a different function name
03:01 Whiteknight okay, that's fine with me
03:02 Whiteknight I'll get this merged in before the next #ps, and we can do a status update then
03:02 allison Whiteknight: and :lookahead should check to see if a named argument was passed for the parameter and use that instead of next positional argument
03:02 Whiteknight so the syntax will be :lookahead('name')? and it will take a named first if available and the next positional otherwise?
03:05 Whiteknight that actually doesn't sound too bad, i might be able to hack together a mockup of it quikc
03:09 Whiteknight allison: I already found an off-by-one error in testing this. I'm testing the fix in the new branch now and will merge it to trunk if it works
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03:20 dalek r35376 | Whiteknight++ | branches/pcc_invoke_convert/src:
03:20 dalek : [pcc_invoke_convert] fix an off-by-one issuewhen creating signature PMCs for methods
03:20 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35376
03:24 allison Whiteknight: that's not going to work, you'll have an empty space in your type_tuple
03:25 Whiteknight yeah, you're probably right
03:26 allison Whiteknight: the string index and the type_tuple index will have to be broken apart
03:26 japhb joined #parrot
03:26 allison incremented separately
03:36 Whiteknight yeah
03:43 Whiteknight okay, I think I've got it fixed. Testing now
03:50 dalek r35377 | Whiteknight++ | branches/pcc_invoke_convert/src:
03:50 dalek : [pcc_invoke_convert] fix my last fix by new screwing up the type_tuple
03:50 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35377
03:55 dalek r35378 | allison++ | trunk (36 files):
03:55 dalek : [pdd09gc] Merging the pdd09gc_part2 branch into trunk for r34686 to r35374.
03:55 dalek : GC refactor: reorganize code for sanity and maintainability.
03:55 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35378
03:55 dalek r35379 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/builtins:
03:55 dalek : [rakudo]: Adjust CALLMETHOD to work on Perl6Scalar.
03:55 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35379
04:00 Whiteknight urg, the first Parrot_PCCINVOKE I tried to convert caused a segfault in one of the tests
04:01 GeJ PIR question: is there an obvious way to convert "0666" to "666" ?
04:01 GeJ so far, I'm using a temporary int, but I was curious if there was another option.
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04:06 Whiteknight GeJ, I assume there is some kind of variant of substr that could do it
04:07 Whiteknight "substr $S0, 1" would be my guess
04:09 GeJ That would work for this case, but I'm working in a loop where I'm converting "0666" "0777" "0888" "6666" "7777" "8888"
04:10 Whiteknight so you only want to chop off the first character if it's a "0"?
04:10 GeJ yup
04:11 Whiteknight $S1 = substr $S0, 0, 1
04:11 Whiteknight if $S0 == "0" goto chop_it
04:11 Whiteknight ...
04:11 Whiteknight er, if $S1 == "0" goto chop_it
04:14 Whiteknight allison, I've tried converting a few separate instances of Parrot_PCCINVOKE so far, and every one causes segfaults in either the build or in tests
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04:14 Whiteknight We've got to be missing something critical in the implementation now
04:15 Whiteknight I haven't pulled out gdb on it yet, it's getting too late here for me to dig that deep
04:20 dalek r35380 | allison++ | branches:
04:20 dalek : Removing second GC development branch from the repository
04:20 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35380
04:21 Whiteknight every time I check out a new branch it gets deleted
04:29 dalek r35381 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src (2 files):
04:29 dalek : [rakudo]:  Final bits of array/hash parameter handling.
04:29 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35381
04:29 DietCoke what, the branch?
04:30 DietCoke (do you just have crappy timing?)
04:31 dalek r35382 | allison++ | trunk (10 files):
04:31 dalek : [cage] Fix some file naming problems that prevented Ubuntu packages from
04:31 dalek : building (it automatically strips files named .orig, assuming that they were
04:31 dalek : generated by patch).
04:31 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35382
04:38 Theory joined #parrot
04:44 DietCoke CD ruoso
04:45 DietCoke whoops.
04:52 pmichaud rt.perl.org slow. again.
04:54 pmichaud Internal Server Error
04:54 purl Internal Server Error is the catch-all the web server uses when it has no idea what's wrong or look in  the error_log for (hopefully) a better error message or 10 MONKEY CANNOT FIT INSIDE A 1.44MB FLOPPY!@#
04:54 * pmichaud once again considers moving rakudobug off of rt.perl.org .
05:04 DietCoke verrry slow.
05:05 DietCoke did you open a ticket ?
05:06 * DietCoke digs through his email to find some ticket history.
05:07 ChrisDavaz joined #parrot
05:16 GeJ is it possible to intercept STDOUT and put the content in a String PMC?
05:17 DietCoke jonathan: ping
05:17 Infinoid DietCoke: you asked for an example of git merging > svn merging, so I'm trying to recreate the bcanno branch merge (which had to be done by hand since svn choked on it), and having some trouble with the syntax.  is there some way to reference a branch that's since been removed?
05:18 DietCoke go back to the last revision in which it existed?
05:18 Infinoid -r doesn't seem to do quite what I wanted
05:18 DietCoke then I don't know what to tell ya.
05:18 Infinoid % svn ls -r35048 http://svn.perl.org/parrot/branches/bcanno
05:18 Infinoid svn: '/parrot/!svn/bc/35382/branches/bcanno' path not found
05:19 Infinoid ok, I'll see if I can find another way
05:19 DietCoke Infinoid: svn ls http://svn.perl.org/parrot/branches/bcanno@35000
05:20 Infinoid ah!  thanks
05:20 DietCoke no clue what the diff is between -rFoo and @foo
05:20 Infinoid apparently -r looks up the inode in the current revision first and then goes to the given point in history, whereas @ does things in the other order
05:21 Infinoid for ... a reason, I guess
05:22 pmichaud GeJ: I believe that intercepting STDOUT is/was a long-time feature request for Parrot that was supposed to be helped by the io refactor.  I don't know if anything has changed for that recently.
05:24 GeJ pmichaud: thanks for the info. I think I'll put the perl-to-pir conversion of library/dumper.t on the side until I can get a definitive answer.
05:25 pmichaud (and yes, capturing STDOUT was needed specifically to aid in testing.)
05:29 dalek r35383 | coke++ | trunk:
05:29 dalek : When adding items to the deprecation list, please create tickets to track them.
05:29 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35383
05:33 cotto There appears to be an unused Parrot_printf function.
05:36 cotto should it stay there?
05:41 dalek r35384 | coke++ | trunk/languages/BASIC/compiler (7 files):
05:41 dalek : [BASIC] - integer type ids are no longer available
05:41 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35384
05:53 dalek r35385 | coke++ | trunk/languages/BASIC/compiler (11 files):
05:53 dalek : [BASIC] avoid defunct find/store_global opcodes
05:53 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35385
06:00 dalek r35386 | coke++ | trunk/languages/BASIC/compiler (2 files):
06:00 dalek : [BASIC] integer type ids no longer user-facing
06:00 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35386
06:13 dalek r35387 | coke++ | trunk/languages/BASIC/compiler (5 files):
06:13 dalek : [BASIC] - can't use PASM-style registers in PIR anymore; pioctl opcode has been removed; must use .tailcall instead of .return
06:13 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35387
06:15 dalek r35388 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6 (2 files):
06:15 dalek : [rakudo]:  Fix variable typo in ObjectRef.  Partially fixes RT #61324.
06:15 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35388
06:20 dalek r35389 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/classes:
06:20 dalek : [rakudo]:  Handle .perl on Arrays with missing elements.
06:20 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35389
06:21 dalek r35390 | coke++ | trunk/languages/BASIC/compiler:
06:21 dalek : [BASIC] - remove unused function (which happened to reference a long dead opcode.)
06:21 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35390
06:36 DietCoke cotto: unused functions are not boss.
06:40 cotto and by "not boss" you mean "safe to remove without consulting someone first"?
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07:23 dalek r35391 | cotto++ | trunk/t/pmc (6 files):
07:23 dalek : [t] convert more strings to keys in tests
07:23 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35391
07:26 dalek r35392 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/builtins:
07:26 dalek : [rakudo]:  Fix '.values' method for Any (RT #62148).
07:26 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35392
07:30 dalek r35393 | cotto++ | trunk/t/pmc (11 files):
07:30 dalek : [t] a bunch more string->key test conversions
07:30 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35393
07:35 dalek r35394 | cotto++ | trunk/t/pmc (9 files):
07:35 dalek : [t] more string->key conversions
07:35 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35394
07:38 japhb joined #parrot
07:41 dalek r35395 | cotto++ | trunk/t/pmc (16 files):
07:41 dalek : [t] another mess of string->key conversions
07:41 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35395
07:42 dalek r35396 | cotto++ | trunk/t/pmc (2 files):
07:42 dalek : [t] a couple more string->key conversions
07:42 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35396
08:10 DietCoke cotto: at the very least, open a ticket.
08:11 DietCoke I can never tell if something is internal or external, or..
08:13 dalek r35397 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/parser:
08:13 dalek : [rakudo]:  Fix default values for optional params (RT #61172).
08:13 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35397
09:04 pmichaud rakudo:  class Foo { has $.x = 42; }; say Foo.new.x
09:04 polyglotbot OUTPUT[42␤]
09:04 pmichaud rakudo:  class Foo { has $.x = 'default' }; say Foo.new.x
09:04 polyglotbot OUTPUT[default␤]
09:04 pmichaud rakudo:  class Foo { has $.x = 'default' }; my $x = Foo.new; say $x.x;
09:04 polyglotbot OUTPUT[default␤]
09:05 pmichaud rakudo:  class Foo { has $.x = 'default' }; my Foo $x .= new; say $x.x;
09:05 polyglotbot OUTPUT[default␤]
09:05 Zaba rakudo: class Foo { has $x = 'foo' }; my $foo = Foo.new; say $foo.x
09:05 polyglotbot OUTPUT[Method 'x' not found for invocant of class 'Foo'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 86 (EVAL_20:44)␤called from Sub '!UNIT_START' pc 16869 (src/builtins/guts.pir:316)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;eval' pc 950 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:527)␤called from Sub
09:05 polyglotbot ..'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1275 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:688)␤called...
09:05 Zaba aw
09:09 Tene class Foo { has $.x = 'foo' }; my $foo = Foo.new; say $foo.x
09:09 Tene rakudo: class Foo { has $.x = 'foo' }; my $foo = Foo.new; say $foo.x
09:10 polyglotbot OUTPUT[foo␤]
09:10 pmichaud I was just duplicating a test from an RT ticket.
09:10 pmichaud verifying that it is now fixed after rvar merge.
09:11 pmichaud (it is.)
09:12 Zaba what exactly does the '.' do in the variable name there?
09:13 pmichaud makes it an attribute with a public accessor
09:13 Zaba aha
09:13 Zaba makes sense
09:16 dalek r35398 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/pheme/lib (4 files):
09:16 dalek : [pheme]
09:16 dalek : - remove PhemeCompiler.pir (not used)
09:16 dalek : - detabify & minor beautification
09:16 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35398
09:16 pmichaud rakudo:  sub foo(Int $x?) { say "x = $x" }; foo();
09:16 polyglotbot OUTPUT[Parameter type check failed for $x in call to foo␤current instr.: 'die' pc 15514 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤called from Sub '!SIGNATURE_BIND' pc 9398 (src/classes/Signature.pir:352)␤called from Sub 'foo' pc 116 (EVAL_17:64)␤called from Sub '_block14' pc 64 (EVAL_17:40)␤called from Sub
09:16 polyglotbot ..'!UNIT_START' pc 16869 (src/builtins/guts.pir:316)...
09:17 pmichaud afk, sleep.
09:17 dalek r35399 | fperrad++ | trunk:
09:17 dalek : update MANIFEST
09:17 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35399
09:19 cotto excuses, excuses
09:26 dalek r35400 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/pheme (2 files):
09:26 dalek : [pheme]
09:26 dalek : - clean up Makefile
09:26 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35400
09:33 dalek r35401 | cotto++ | trunk/t/pmc (15 files):
09:33 dalek : [t] a bunch more test conversions
09:33 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35401
09:46 dalek r35402 | cotto++ | trunk/t/pmc (14 files):
09:46 dalek : [t] convert the last of the PMC tests to use keys
09:46 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35402
10:23 iblechbot joined #parrot
10:25 On joined #parrot
10:42 dalek r35403 | fperrad++ | trunk/config/gen/makefiles (3 files):
10:42 dalek : [win32]
10:42 dalek : - fix targets using cd
10:42 dalek : the portable idiom is :
10:42 dalek :    cd $(DIR) && do_something
10:43 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35403
10:47 masak joined #parrot
10:47 nopaste "GeJ" at 202.22.229.231 pasted "[PATCH] Fix `make html` after merge of pdd09gc_part2 branch" (20 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/15284
10:56 dalek r35404 | cotto++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Docs/Section:
10:56 dalek : [docs] fix make html
10:56 dalek : patch courtesy of GeJ++
10:56 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35404
10:57 cotto karma me
10:57 purl cotto has karma of 240
10:57 On2 joined #parrot
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11:33 Alive joined #parrot
11:34 Alive Hello,
11:34 Alive are you all birders ?
11:35 masak Alive: virtual machine for dynamic languages. see http://www.parrot.org/
11:36 Alive anyone here ?
11:36 purl look around and see, you dolt
11:36 masak Alive: don't mind purl, she's very crude.
11:36 masak purl: you're crude.
11:36 purl masak: huh?
11:36 masak purl: and stupid.
11:36 purl stupid is is also
11:37 Alive I'm looking to talk to people who know birds.
11:37 masak Alive: in general, it's probably not reasonable to expect to find a channel full obirders on irc.perl.org.
11:38 masak Alive: we mostly do programming here.
11:38 Alive Ok, one of my google searches brought me here.
11:39 Alive I see now.
11:39 Alive Yeah.
11:39 masak Alive: I wish I had a bird channel to recommend you.
11:39 Alive Well I have nothing to do here today then.
11:39 Alive bye.
11:39 Alive :)
11:39 * Alive waves
11:39 masak Alive: bye.
11:40 Alive left #parrot
12:13 dalek r35405 | kjs++ | trunk/compilers/pirc/src:
12:13 dalek : [pirc] make unused-symbol-checking function slightly safer; if invoked and there's no subroutine object, just return, instead of referencing its attributes, which would result in seg. faults.
12:13 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35405
12:18 dalek r35406 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/lua/src/lib:
12:18 dalek : [Lua]
12:18 dalek : - fix traceback (vs regex.t)
12:18 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35406
12:18 dalek r35407 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/lua (2 files):
12:18 dalek : [Lua]
12:18 dalek : - fix TGE
12:18 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35407
12:33 dalek r35408 | bernhard++ | trunk (4 files):
12:33 dalek : [codingstd] Set SVN properties.
12:33 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35408
12:35 dalek r35409 | bernhard++ | trunk (8 files):
12:35 dalek : [Pipp] Work on the docs.
12:35 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35409
12:40 dalek r35410 | bernhard++ | trunk/docs/pdds/draft:
12:40 dalek : [codingstd] shorten long lines.
12:40 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35410
12:46 barney joined #parrot
12:50 dalek r35411 | bernhard++ | trunk/languages/ecmascript/src/parser:
12:50 dalek : [codingstd] remove trailing spaces
12:50 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35411
13:23 dalek r35412 | bernhard++ | trunk/lib/Parrot:
13:23 dalek : [perl] List more generated functions.
13:23 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35412
13:38 dalek r35413 | bernhard++ | trunk/lib/Parrot:
13:38 dalek : [perl] limit scope of $dist
13:38 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35413
13:50 kid51 joined #parrot
14:17 dalek r35414 | bernhard++ | trunk/languages/pipp (2 files):
14:17 dalek : [Pipp] Grab Configure.pl from Pheme and use it in Makefile.
14:17 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35414
14:31 gravity joined #parrot
14:32 Whiteknight joined #parrot
14:34 dalek r35415 | bernhard++ | trunk/languages/befunge:
14:34 dalek : [befunge] Update the README
14:34 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35415
14:43 dalek r35416 | bernhard++ | trunk (4 files):
14:43 dalek : [befunge] Add a Configure.pl
14:43 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35416
14:55 masak joined #parrot
15:08 riffraff joined #parrot
15:09 riffraff hi
15:10 Whiteknight hello
15:10 purl hello, Whiteknight.
15:11 dalek r35417 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/classes:
15:11 dalek : [rakudo]:  Handle numification and boolean test of protoobjects (RT #62006)
15:11 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35417
15:20 dalek r35418 | pmichaud++ | trunk/compilers/pct/src/PCT:
15:20 dalek : [pct]:  Add command line arguments to -e (RT #62030).
15:20 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35418
15:20 riffraff I'd like to define a couple new opcodes to simplify code generation (x**2 and x**3 are builtin unary operators in my problem space) but I'm not sure how should I do that. someone could tell me what shall I grep in the languages/ dir to find a reference? :)
15:22 Whiteknight what opcodes do you want to add?
15:23 Whiteknight all the core opcodes are defined in src/ops/, so grepping in there might find you some things you didn't know you had
15:24 Whiteknight and some examples about making dynops are in src/dynoplibs/
15:24 jonathan riffraff: Also, Rakudo uses dynops.
15:25 riffraff tryied to look into src/ops, but this are admittedly a bit useless ops outside of my domain (shakespeare programming language): unary *2, **2, **3, fact
15:26 jonathan dynops are pretty easy
15:26 jonathan And seem fairly portable too.
15:26 riffraff ok I'll look into that, thanks
15:27 riffraff btw, I think I saw  in ops something strange: pow and exp seem to be defined both as experimental.ops and in math.ops
15:30 riffraff mh, no the arglist seem different
15:43 jan joined #parrot
16:00 tetragon joined #parrot
16:01 Whiteknight jonathan: I haven't dug into it too much, but how do you load a dynoplib?
16:06 dalek r35419 | fperrad++ | trunk/config/gen/makefiles (5 files):
16:06 dalek : [makefile]
16:06 dalek : - clean up & layout
16:06 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35419
16:33 dalek r35420 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/classes:
16:33 dalek : [rakudo]:  Make Whatever more graceful outside of slices (RT #62066).
16:33 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35420
16:58 jonathan Yeah, Whatever. :-)
17:01 masak rakudo: for [""].values -> $x { say $x.perl }
17:01 polyglotbot OUTPUT[""␤]
17:01 masak rakudo: my @a = [""]; for @a.values -> $x { say $x.perl }
17:01 polyglotbot OUTPUT[[""]␤]
17:02 masak what's up with that?
17:02 jonathan Looks right to me.
17:02 masak oh, good.
17:02 jonathan @a causes a list assignment
17:02 jonathan And youhave on the RHS a list of one element.
17:02 masak aye -- I'll never get used to that part. :)
17:03 jonathan :-)
17:13 * jonathan books his flight to the Ukrainian Perl Workshop
17:13 jonathan ...or, to a city an overnight train journey from it, and for a few days before. :-)
17:15 kid51 joined #parrot
17:33 Whiteknight joined #parrot
17:58 chromatic joined #parrot
18:01 masak ok, there is definitely something wrong with Rakudo I/O since the merge.
18:03 masak pmichaud: RT#62166 hurts most right now. after that, there's a chance Druid might start working again.
18:05 masak I might also note that running Druid causes various memory-related errors right now. they seem scary.
18:05 jonathan masak: I get a different error
18:05 masak I'm used to 'Segmentation fault' by now, but 'Bus error' and 'Detected hash corruption at hash 2a5f770 entries 1' are unusual.
18:06 masak jonathan: interesting.
18:06 jonathan Method 'read' not found
18:07 dalek r35421 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/classes:
18:07 dalek : [rakudo]:  $v ~~ NaN tests for NaN-ness (RT #61942).
18:07 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35421
18:07 * jonathan wonders if *that's* going to work on Win32
18:08 pmichaud masak: masak I suspect 62166 is a Parrot issue and not a Rakudo one.  At least, I can't think of anything we might've changed that would cause IO to work differently.
18:08 jonathan pmichaud: I haven't dug, but Parrot issue was my first guess also.
18:08 masak pmichaud: whom might I haunt to make it go away?
18:10 jonathan Someone who knows some Parrot guts. :-)
18:11 masak someone who knows some parrot guts: something you did recently has made me very sad. :/
18:11 masak you've got some guts!
18:12 jonathan masak: Today I've mostly only good for drinking tea and spending money. But I'll try and investigate it tomorrow, if nobody beats me to it.
18:12 masak jonathan: gracias.
18:12 purl grassy ass!
18:12 masak purl: nobody likes you.
18:12 purl masak: huh?
18:12 * jonathan lived in Spain for 6 months and got *so* tired of that one...
18:13 masak :)
18:15 masak ok, gotta go. be back tomorrow.
18:15 * masak waves
18:15 pmichaud maybe someone can bisect RT #62166 ?
18:16 dalek r35422 | pmichaud++ | trunk/languages/perl6/docs:
18:16 dalek : [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 279 files, 6143 passing, 0 failing
18:16 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35422
18:41 desertmax joined #parrot
19:09 ask_ joined #parrot
19:17 kid51 joined #parrot
19:20 GeJ Good morning everyone
19:21 GeJ kid51: About TT #160, it all started a couple of weeks ago when I asked if there was some entry-level task I could accomplish.
19:21 GeJ kid51: chromatic pointed me to the wiki page mentioned by Coke.
19:22 GeJ kid51: so everyday, I try to convert one or two of those as time permits.
19:22 GeJ (sorry for answering here, but I'm not on my desktop at the moment, and I don't have my trac password in mind)
19:24 kid51 GeJ:  Do you recall which wiki page that was?
19:25 GeJ https://trac.parrot.org/parr​ot/wiki/ConvertTestsToParrot
19:25 * kid51 notes that at this point in Parrot's development, it *is* difficult to identify entry-level tasks for volunteers.
19:25 GeJ Which is listed in https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/CageTasklist
19:27 GeJ I'm actually glad I asked because I learned (learnt?) a lot about PIR while working on those test conversions.
19:28 kid51 And I'm glad I asked *you* about this, because I was completely unaware of the existence of those 2 wiki pages.
19:29 kid51 I think they were created after the wiki moved to trac.
19:29 kid51 I will make an entry in that TT pointing to that wiki page.
19:31 kid51 Ah! I see that Coke already made that entry.
19:35 sjn pmichaud: ping
19:35 pmichaud pong
19:35 sjn pmichaud: just a few hours left before the NPW'09 call for papers dealine! o.O
19:35 sjn deadline*
19:35 pmichaud sjn: oh, thank you for the reminder.
19:36 * sjn slaps pmichaud with a reminderstick
19:36 pmichaud it's been crazy around here.  I will get those turned in just a few minutes.
19:36 sjn :D
19:36 sjn have you talked with jonathan about the hackathon yet?
19:37 sjn (re: my private message to you yesterday)
19:37 dalek r35423 | moritz++ | trunk/languages/perl6/t:
19:37 dalek : [rakudo] add whatever.t to t/spectest.data
19:37 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35423
19:39 pmichaud jonathan: ping
19:39 pmichaud sjn: jonathan and I have already planned that we want to work together at NPW
19:39 pmichaud (long before this)
19:40 pmichaud other helpful hackers would be any of the regulars here or on #perl6, including (for example) masak, moritz, allison, etc.
19:41 jonathan pmichaud: pong
19:41 jonathan sjn caught me earlier about NPW
19:41 allison Whiteknight: ok, then don't commit them
19:41 pmichaud jonathan: what did you submit for npw, so that I don't conflict?  ;-)
19:41 jonathan I've submitted one on multiple dispatch
19:41 jonathan And a Perl 6 tutorial
19:41 jonathan None of them cover Rakudo itself, nor PCT.
19:42 pmichaud okay.  I'll cover Rakudo and PCT then.
19:42 jonathan Does that work OK for you?
19:42 jonathan I figured they're the topics you'd want to cover most.
19:42 pmichaud I have a Perl 6 talk I'm putting together for Frozen Perl that is focused on Perl 6 stuff
19:42 pmichaud (not Rakudo itself nor PCT)
19:42 szabgab allison: hi, I sent in the CLA a few days ago to the legal@parrot
19:42 pmichaud so maybe you can borrow from it.  :-)
19:43 pmichaud but I'm happy covering whatever topics aren't being covered by others.  :-)
19:43 pmichaud yes, I'll do PCT and Rakudo then.
19:43 allison szabgab: got it, thanks!
19:43 jonathan Did the Perl 6 talk mostly cover actual Perl 6 programming, or more project history as well and stuff?
19:43 szabgab what is the process then to get a commit bit?
19:43 pmichaud the Perl 6 talk I'm putting together for Frozen Perl is intended to be super-practical.
19:43 jonathan s/Did/Does/
19:43 pmichaud not project history.
19:44 jonathan Ah, OK. That's essentially what I was planning too. Hmm.
19:44 pmichaud basically getting people to see some of the cool (and implemented) features of Perl 6
19:44 pmichaud please go ahead and keep that talk for NPW
19:44 jonathan Yes, I was planning to just cover, what's implemented.
19:44 jonathan OK.
19:44 jonathan I'm giving it also at Bulgarian Perl Workshop and Belgian Perl Workshop.
19:45 pmichaud I have plenty to talk about aside from that, and I'll want to steal^H^H^H^H^Hborrow some ideas for talks later in the year at YAPC/OSCON :-)
19:45 jonathan :-)
19:45 pmichaud your examples are always really good
19:45 jonathan Trying to work out some good ones for the multi dispatch talk at the moment.
19:46 pmichaud I leave multidispatch to you for now :-)
19:46 pmichaud sjn:  I have to take a short break but will submit in ~45 mins.
19:46 sjn sure
19:46 pmichaud right now I have 4h13 left to submit, yes?
19:46 pmichaud or 3h13?
19:46 jonathan Ooooh...cutting it close!
19:46 jonathan I reckon 3h13
19:46 pmichaud I was going to do it last night but I got too excited closing rt tickets.
19:47 jonathan If it's midnight in Norway that it closes.
19:47 moritz s/closing/assigning to moritz/ ;-)
19:47 sjn pmichaud, jonathan: would it be sensible to look at topics that would be directly relevant for the hackathon (recruiting purposes) or is the tutorial talk supposed to cover that?
19:47 pmichaud sjn: I suspect our talks would all hit recruiting purposes.
19:47 sjn ok
19:47 pmichaud certainly a talk about Rakudo and/or PCT would.
19:47 sjn sweet
19:47 szabgab allison: what is the process then to get a commit bit?
19:47 jonathan sjn: I expect my tutorial one would cover the people who want to write Perl 6 coe to run on Rakudo, and pmichaud's would work for people who want to hack on Rakudo itself.
19:48 pmichaud by that time I totally expect we'll be doing builtins in P6.... what jonathan++ just said
19:48 sjn ok
19:48 pmichaud (jonathan's tutorial one will also cover people who want to write Perl 6 to be a part of Rakudo :-)
19:48 jonathan pmichaud: We've been saying things about expecting to be doing builtins in P6 for a while. ;-)
19:48 pmichaud jonathan: yes, and we're getting closer every day.  It would've been somewhat pointless without array and hash params working first :-)
19:48 jonathan Yes, agree.
19:49 sjn how about stuff/tasks that could be used to get people into making useful contributions at the hackathon itsel@f?
19:49 jonathan I just wonder, how much more little bits we will need. :-)
19:49 sjn itself*
19:49 allison szabgab: a review by a panel of other committers. Have you had patches accepted into Parrot? That's the first requirement.
19:49 pmichaud sjn: we'll want to include those, also, but it's hard to predict three-months-out what those things will be.
19:49 sjn mm
19:49 pmichaud although our predictions are likely getting better :-)
19:49 lathos When's the next time core people will be in Europe? I'm happy hacking on strings things, but would be happier with others to kick ideas about.
19:50 * jonathan is in Europe
19:50 jonathan At least pmichaud will be in April also...
19:51 sjn how about setting aside a 20 minutes for a "this is what we'll hack on at the hackathon" talk?
19:51 pmichaud -planned-  -- depends on travel support to some extent.
19:51 pmichaud sjn: actually, I think I might reprise my pghpw workshop talk, which was specifically "how to hack Perl 6 and Rakudo"
19:51 sjn great
19:51 pmichaud if I do that as the talk, that could serve to draw people into the hackathan.
19:51 jonathan pmichaud: Ah, sorry, I thought the flights discussion implied booking thereof.
19:52 pmichaud *hackathon
19:52 pmichaud jonathan: no, I was just seeing what the ballpark was.
19:52 jonathan Ah, OK.
19:52 sjn <- afk for a while, logging the chat
19:52 pmichaud I'd like to make sure my talk is accepted before committing to the trip :-P
19:52 jonathan ;-)
19:53 pmichaud (and that I can get at least some travel support from _somewhere_)
19:53 lathos Oslo Hackathon? Hrm.
19:53 pmichaud sjn:  also, having any of the smop/elf hackers there would be a huge win
19:53 jonathan lathos: Oslo is great! (If you can temporarily forget what beer is.)
19:54 kid51 joined #parrot
19:54 pmichaud okay, afk for a bit.
19:54 lathos I would also need support. We'll see how much worthy code I get written before then before I feel good about begging. :)
19:56 jonathan :-)
19:56 szabgab allison: wow, I sent in several test script for Parrot::Embed, (they are in trac)
19:56 szabgab allison: one of them was even applied
19:57 szabgab allison: and basically I'd like to add more tests there, that's it for now
19:57 allison szabgab: well, go ahead with patches for now, commit access usually comes after you've been contributing for a while
19:59 szabgab allison: I think I'll drag myself back to my own hole then and wait till someone will review the ones I already sent in
19:59 allison szabgab: what patches are those?
20:00 szabgab test scripts for Parrot::Embed
20:00 allison szabgab: yes, what ticket #s?
20:03 szabgab allison:  #74, #75, #76, #77, #79
20:13 allison szabgab: #74 is a bug report
20:14 kid51 joined #parrot
20:14 kid51 Gej:  Tried to apply your patch in TT 160, but it did not apply cleanly
20:15 szabgab allison: all of them are bug or missing feature rerports with tests attached
20:16 dalek r35424 | moritz++ | trunk/languages/perl6/t:
20:16 dalek : [rakudo] add S12-construction/new.t to t/spectest.data
20:16 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35424
20:20 pmichaud hah!  NPW 2009 site says they're extending the deadline!  :-)
20:20 pmichaud I still have seven days!
20:21 kid51 NPW?
20:21 purl i think NPW is Nordic Perl Workshop
20:22 kid51 purl, NPW is Nordic Perl Workshop (http://www.perlworkshop.dk/)
20:22 purl ...but npw is Nordic Perl Workshop...
20:22 kid51 purl forget NPW
20:22 purl kid51: I forgot npw
20:22 kid51 purl, NPW is Nordic Perl Workshop (http://www.perlworkshop.dk/)
20:22 purl OK, kid51.
20:22 kid51 NPW?
20:22 purl NPW is Nordic Perl Workshop (http://www.perlworkshop.dk/)
20:22 kid51 purl, NPW 2009 is http://www.perlworkshop.no/npw2009/
20:22 purl OK, kid51.
20:23 allison szabgab: okay, see #77 for comment on the whole set of patches, that gives you your next step of work
20:29 szabgab allison: so you say I start with the abc test so someone might work on Parrot::Embed itself
20:30 szabgab and move the other test script to the specific language directories and change them accordingly
20:30 allison szabgab: yes
20:32 pmichaud sjn: talks submitted.  :-)
20:52 jan joined #parrot
21:01 donaldh joined #parrot
21:02 riffraff joined #parrot
21:06 szabgab pmichaud: I have a failing test for languages/abc  I sent to the mailing list but then I though it might have a better place elsewhere
21:07 szabgab so shall I open  ticket with it?
21:07 sjn pmichaud: yay! \o/
21:08 Limbic_Region joined #parrot
21:08 Limbic_Region chromatic - ref http://use.perl.org/~chromatic/journal/38256 ike interpolating an argument list with a scalar variable stil a scalar - /stil/still/?
21:08 sjn purl, NPW is also in Oslo in 2009 (see http://www.perlworkshop.no/npw2009/)
21:08 purl okay, sjn.
21:19 mberends joined #parrot
21:22 pmichaud szabgab: ticket is fine -- trac.parrot.org
21:24 kj joined #parrot
21:27 szabgab allison: #77 got the languages.t file
21:30 szabgab pmichaud: #161
21:45 lathos rakudo: print
21:45 polyglotbot RESULT[1]
21:45 lathos "It is a compiler error to use a bare C<print> without arguments."
21:46 moritz lathos: we've already got a ticket for that one
21:49 szabgab abc: length(23)
21:49 polyglotbot OUTPUT[2␤]
21:49 szabgab abc: length(def)
21:49 polyglotbot OUTPUT[1␤]
21:49 szabgab abc: length(abc)
21:49 polyglotbot OUTPUT[3␤]
21:50 szabgab abc: abc
21:50 polyglotbot OUTPUT[last␤]
21:52 GeJ msg kid51 applying the patch locally also b0rked. Looking at the rejection file, it looks like it's $Id$ related.
21:52 purl Message for kid51 stored.
21:53 szabgab chromatic: please review #77 and apply the languages.t file, if possible also look at the last commented out part to see how that should work?
22:03 moritz rakudo is now at 6218 passing tests
22:06 lathos I have no sense of magnitude here.
22:06 lathos Out of how many?
22:07 moritz there are ~18k spec tests atm
22:07 moritz but we probably need 40k to 60k in the end, or even more
22:07 lathos So we're about an-eighth-to-a-tenth of the way there.
22:07 moritz I put a chart of rakudo's progress on http://rakudo.de/
22:10 moritz we're far from feature completeness; but I think we're half ways to a really usable language
22:14 lathos Oh, I think we're more than half way there. I'm writing more Perl 6 than Perl 5 these days.
22:16 moritz probably depends on your standards ;-)
22:17 moritz in particular it needs much more I/O to be every-day usable
22:20 dalek r35425 | kjs++ | trunk/compilers/pirc/src (3 files):
22:20 dalek : [pirc] fix bytecode emission for keys. Hash and Arrays work now. Others not tested yet.
22:20 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35425
23:06 gmansi joined #parrot
23:10 cognominal rakudoperl++ twitter channel
23:13 kjs_ joined #parrot
23:14 dalek r35426 | kjs++ | trunk/compilers/pirc/src (9 files):
23:14 dalek : [pirc] add :lookahead token to lexer and parser. Add the flag as well. Add some doc.
23:14 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35426
23:21 riffraff woo, I've got a working shakespeare interpreter running on parrot :)
23:22 moritz blog about it!
23:22 jonathan /bb|<-[b]>**2/
23:22 jonathan ;-)
23:23 riffraff mh, yeah, if I can get my english blog working again :)
23:23 riffraff but I wanted to ask: is there a way to do I/O testing in Parrot::Test::* ?
23:24 riffraff I currently run examples through a perl script (formerly, ruby) but I'm not sure how to integrate it with the parrot::test::harness
23:24 riffraff it seems parrot::test handles program output but not input
23:25 riffraff and if I just require my 't/extest.pl' the standard test::more does not seem to interact with the harness
23:29 TiMBuS joined #parrot
23:30 riffraff and a small question: $P2 is supposed to be mapped to the pseudovariable self in pirc, right?
23:31 riffraff I have some globals in the code but I'd rather switch them to register variables and make the subrotuine that access them methods
23:31 riffraff s/pirc/PIR/
23:33 TiMBuS i asked that same question. the answer was to make an :immediate sub that returns a hash, then use .const 'Sub' var = 'subname' to access that hash
23:35 dalek r35427 | kjs++ | trunk/compilers/pirc/src (2 files):
23:35 dalek : [pirc] improve rule for :lookahead.
23:35 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35427
23:36 kj riffraff: 'self' is not mapped to a fixed register
23:36 kj TiMBuS: I tried the :immediate sub + global hash trick myself. WOrks nicely :-)
23:36 kj riffraff: I *think* that was the case with the OLD calling conventiosn, though. But that's years ago
23:37 Whiteknight joined #parrot
23:38 TiMBuS parrot used to map special variables to $registers? ew
23:38 TiMBuS pir used to*
23:38 kj TiMBuS: that's why that was called a calling *convention*
23:39 kj the invocant, and the method invoked were stored in particular registers
23:39 riffraff I see
23:39 kj and arguments as well, starting at register 5, for each type
23:39 riffraff im fact I think i found this info in docs/book wchich is probably way out of date
23:39 kj but again, that's nicely abstracted away now
23:41 riffraff makes sense :)

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