Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2009-01-14

Parrot | source cross referenced

| Channels | #parrot index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 * coke is unhinged to see "this is hacky" commits going into pirc.
00:00 * coke though the point of pirc was to be all non-hacky.
00:03 particle1 joined #parrot
00:09 cotto Is it possible that a PMC could have a PMC_x_val that's not referred to in src/pmc/x.pmc?
00:09 cotto (x != x)
00:09 AndyA joined #parrot
00:12 alvar joined #parrot
00:12 tetragon joined #parrot
00:19 Tene joined #parrot
00:21 TiMBuS joined #parrot
00:40 Tene Okay, it's time to make a presentation for tomorrow.
00:40 Tene I forgot that I was presenting at all.
00:41 Tene Also, I'm scheduled to work on a contracting job at the same time.  I need to find a way to get around that...
00:41 Topic for #parrotis now →←
00:42 jonathan Useful topic! ;-)
00:42 * jonathan needs sleep...see y'all tomorrow.
00:42 purl joined #parrot
00:43 Tene The topic was blank for me... was there an error in my client?
00:43 Tene I don't remember what the topic was before
00:44 Infinoid Parrot 0.8.1 "Tio Richie" Released | http://parrot.org | 24 TT | 648 RT
00:44 Infinoid or Parrot 0.8.2 "Feliz Loro" Released http://www.parrot.org/news/2008/Parrot-0.8.2
00:45 Infinoid or something
00:47 Topic for #parrotis now Parrot 0.8.2 "Feliz Loro" Released http://www.parrot.org/news/2008/Parrot-0.8.2
00:48 ask- joined #parrot
00:48 * cotto got stuck in an infinite loop on the last topic
00:49 Infinoid my client didn't want to render multi-column characters in the topic line, here
00:49 Infinoid not sure if it was irssi's fault or screen's
00:49 gravity joined #parrot
00:51 allison joined #parrot
00:54 Whiteknight joined #parrot
01:30 Fayland joined #parrot
02:13 particle joined #parrot
02:17 jimmy joined #parrot
02:18 TiMBuS joined #parrot
02:43 * coke pokes mdiep.
02:50 bacek joined #parrot
02:56 kid51 joined #parrot
02:58 tetragon joined #parrot
02:59 coke if a function takes SHIM_INTERP, and I actually use the interp, do I need to change the function def?
03:07 jimmy yes.
03:12 coke ah, to PARROT_INTERP.
03:12 coke anyone familiar with the "remove pmc union" ticket?
03:13 kid51 TT or RT?
03:14 kid51 This one:  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=48014
03:14 kid51 ?
03:17 coke yes.
03:18 coke and I already know your answer. =-)
03:18 * coke comments on the list.
03:18 * coke sees that cotto claimed the ticket 16 hours ago.
03:20 * coke does a revert -R .
03:56 rurban_ joined #parrot
04:02 * coke is a smidge surprised that annotations seem to stay in effect until you override them.
04:02 * coke shouldn't be.
04:14 particle1 joined #parrot
04:25 Fayland joined #parrot
04:53 japhb joined #parrot
05:00 masak joined #parrot
05:14 cotto Coke-away, if you want to help with the PMC union deprecation, please do.  It's a big project.
05:23 MariachiElf joined #parrot
05:30 dalek r35515 | tene++ | trunk/tools/dev:
05:30 dalek : [mk_language_shell]: Generate new languages in their own .HLL
05:30 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35515
05:32 petdance joined #parrot
05:52 jimmy can anyone helps to reopen https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/84 ?
05:53 cotto jimmy, done
05:54 jimmy cotto++
05:54 Theory joined #parrot
05:55 dalek r35516 | petdance++ | trunk/src:
05:55 dalek : minor consting
05:55 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35516
05:55 dalek r35517 | petdance++ | trunk/config/auto:
05:55 dalek : -Wunused-parameter is too noisy right now
05:55 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35517
05:56 cotto UnManagedStruct extends default.  I thought everything did that.
06:01 cotto as does Undef
06:02 cotto I smell hysterical raisins.
06:06 petdance My build is failing and it is highly tragic.
06:11 cotto delicious raisins (although about to be removed)
06:13 dalek r35518 | cotto++ | trunk/src/pmc (2 files):
06:13 dalek : [pmc] everything extends default, so it doesn't need to be explicit
06:13 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35518
06:24 particle joined #parrot
06:44 cotto perl++
06:44 cotto graphviz++
06:48 Infinoid cotto++
07:04 jimmy /me wonders why
07:05 cotto it probably has something to do with taking on the ticket that coke mentioned, but I never question free karma
07:05 masak cotto++
07:10 petdance my build segfaults
07:10 petdance /bin/sh: line 1: 14766 Segmentation fault      ./miniparrot config_lib.pasm > runtime/parrot/include/config.fpmc
07:11 petdance suggestions?
07:11 purl suggestions are welcome.
07:11 cotto svn diff?
07:11 purl i think svn diff is clean
07:11 cotto make reconfig?
07:12 petdance I've rerun config 9,000,000 times so far.
07:12 moritz purl, forget svn diff
07:12 purl moritz: I forgot svn diff
07:12 moritz purl, forget suggestions
07:12 purl moritz: I forgot suggestions
07:13 cotto is the backtrace useful?
07:23 cotto Andy, ping
07:24 petdance yessir
07:25 cotto I found an apparent bug in ack. should I tell you here or post a report?
07:25 petdance tell me here, and then post a report
07:25 petdance if I don't say "that's not a bug"
07:26 cotto highlighting screws up the terminal if you press ctrl-c while ack is printing some highlighted/colored text
07:26 petdance I'd hardly call that a bug
07:28 petdance It's output.
07:28 petdance It's ANSI output
07:28 petdance and yeah, it'll mess up your screen if you stop it in the middle.
07:31 namenlos joined #parrot
07:32 jimmy cotto: I re-edited PMCUnionDeprecationTasklist
07:34 cotto jimmy++
07:35 jimmy cotto++, for creating it.
07:36 petdance ok bed time for me
07:36 jimmy the image is useful to me.
07:38 cotto that's the idea
07:40 masak what's the URL to the Parrot Trac?
07:40 purl i think the Parrot Trac is https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/
07:40 masak purl: an actually useful response! imagine that!
07:40 purl masak: excuse me?
07:46 GeJ any Win32 user available?
07:50 jimmy me
07:52 jimmy me
07:52 Tene joined #parrot
07:54 GeJ jimmy: Do you know if the Express edition of Visual Studio is enough to build Parrot?
07:54 jimmy Sorry, I don't know.
07:55 jimmy I'm using Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Express Edition.
07:56 jimmy but I have never used it to build parrot.
07:57 GeJ Well, I guess I'll give it a try and see. Thanks.
07:57 jimmy Gej++
07:58 cotto GeJ, istr that it is
08:00 GeJ cotto: Oh, good to know.
08:02 nopaste "GeJ" at 202.22.229.231 pasted "Remove STM reference in HTML doc generation. Fix `make html` target." (13 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/15301
08:03 GeJ hum, Whiteknight seems to be gone. :(
08:03 GeJ I think he did the stm removal, right?
08:04 jimmy yep
08:04 GeJ I'll ping him tomorrow.
08:05 * GeJ goes back to "Learn C# in 21 hours" :~(
08:08 jimmy GeJ: there were more to do. like, _class->vtable_cache    = PMCNULL; /* only used for STM */
08:08 iblechbot joined #parrot
08:11 GeJ jimmy: it looks like the t/stm directory has been removed already, and when calling `make html` perl b0rks because it is nowhere to be found.
08:12 jimmy GeJ: Gej++, and I found other codes that mentioned stm.
08:27 cotto jimmy, nopaste a patch
08:32 * jimmy is testing now.
08:32 * jimmy wonders is there a stm op in AIX
08:39 jimmy nopaste?
08:39 purl nopaste is, like, at http://nopaste.snit.ch/ (ask TonyC for new channels) or http://rafb.net/paste or http://poundperl.pastebin.com/ or http://paste.scsys.co.uk/ or App::Nopaste or tools/dev/nopaste.pl or at http://www.extpaste.com/ or http://paste.scsys.co.uk (for #catalyst, #dbix-class, #moose  and others)
08:39 clunker3 http://pasta.test-smoke.org/ or http://paste.husk.org/ or http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/ or http://rafb.net/paste or http://poundperl.pastebin.com/ or http://paste.scsys.co.uk/
08:39 nopaste "jimmy" at 220.232.135.194 pasted "removing stm codes, but not docs(should we remove stm docs?)" (61 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/15302
08:44 particle1 joined #parrot
08:46 register joined #parrot
08:53 jimmy cotto: should I create a ticket for it?
08:58 * jimmy found https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/6 is that
09:01 cotto jimmy, do you mean for the patch you nopasted?
09:02 jimmy yes
09:02 dalek r35519 | cotto++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Docs/Section:
09:02 dalek : [docs] remove an STM reference and fix make html
09:02 dalek : GeJ++ for noticing
09:02 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35519
09:03 cotto if it doesn't cause any explosions, I'll just apply it now
09:03 jimmy it is listed in DEPRECATED.pod too.
09:04 cotto tesing...
09:04 jimmy I don't know whether cause any explosions, but all test is passed here on win32
09:06 cotto all tests passing == no explosions (although it doesn't hurt for me to verify)
09:06 jimmy and there is vtablecache.pmc file too.
09:06 jimmy this is should be removed.
09:07 mj41 joined #parrot
09:07 cotto your patch will help
09:09 jimmy cotto: I think my patch cann't be applied.
09:10 cotto why not?  it applied cleanly and you said there were no failures
09:10 jimmy actually, it is part patch of TT #6
09:11 jimmy vtablecache.pmc is used in pmc.num and I don't how to remove it.
09:11 dalek r35520 | cotto++ | trunk/src:
09:11 dalek : [oo] replace a couple PMC_x_val macros with VTABLE functions
09:11 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35520
09:13 russell_h joined #parrot
09:13 dalek r35521 | cotto++ | trunk/src/pmc (2 files):
09:13 dalek : [pmc] remove a couple STM and VTABLECache references
09:13 dalek : patch courtesy of jimmy++
09:13 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35521
09:19 jimmy cotto: I uploaded another patch
09:19 jimmy https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/6
09:23 cotto tesing...
09:26 jimmy ah, forgot to remove test case file.
09:27 cotto the build looks good, now running the test suite
09:27 jimmy there is a test case file that should be removed
09:28 cotto t/pmc/vtablecache.t?
09:28 jimmy yes
09:28 tomyan joined #parrot
09:28 cotto I'll take care of it if the tests are happy
09:28 cotto thanks for your work on this
09:30 jimmy seems that patch2.patch can't remove files.
09:31 jimmy vtablecache.pmc should be also removed.
09:32 cotto yup
09:34 cotto done
09:35 dalek r35522 | cotto++ | trunk (6 files):
09:35 dalek : [pmc] remove the vtablecache PMC and tests
09:35 dalek : patch courtesy of jimmy++
09:35 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35522
09:36 alvar joined #parrot
09:37 cotto There really should be a script to renumber pmc.num
09:37 jimmy yep
09:37 cotto easy karma if you feel like submitting one, jimmy
09:37 cotto ;)
09:38 cotto an additional make target (make pmcrenum) would be ideal
09:38 cotto similar to make opsrenum
09:40 donaldh joined #parrot
09:43 cotto I'll do it if you don't want to.  Do you?
09:43 jimmy I'm not good at perl :(
09:44 cotto Ok.  Let's see how long this takes.
09:45 * jimmy guessed there were less than 3  lines.
09:52 cotto it has to be a little nicer to be committable
09:54 kj joined #parrot
09:59 mberends joined #parrot
10:01 cotto seems to work
10:01 jimmy cotto++
10:01 jimmy karma cotto
10:01 purl cotto has karma of 255
10:02 cotto very nice number
10:02 cotto 255++
10:02 jimmy karma 255
10:02 purl 255 has karma of 1
10:03 szbalint 8 bit wonder
10:03 szbalint =)
10:04 cotto one more, and a NES won't be able to handle my karma
10:08 tomyan left #parrot
10:08 cotto There it is.
10:08 dalek r35523 | cotto++ | trunk (4 files):
10:08 dalek : [pmc] add make pmcrenumber to take care of pmc.num when needed
10:08 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35523
10:09 jimmy joined #parrot
10:09 masak I thought 255 might be prime, but it isn't. it's 3 * 5 * 17.
10:09 jimmy joined #parrot
10:09 cotto maybe 256 is
10:09 cotto ;)
10:09 kj masak: it's also mod 5 == 0
10:09 moritz no number that ends in 5 (except 5) is prime
10:09 masak kj: ouch. yes.
10:10 kj hehe. still early morning eh? :-)
10:10 masak seems so.
10:10 tomyan joined #parrot
10:10 masak I guess I also was thinking of 255 as 0xFF, and that muddled my thinking somewhat.
10:12 cotto pipp: <?=cotto?><?=--?>
10:12 polyglotbot OUTPUT[Couldn't find constant cotto␤=--?>]
10:12 cotto pipp: <?="cotto"?><?="--"?>
10:12 polyglotbot OUTPUT[cotto="--"?>]
10:12 jimmy pipp: <?php echo 'hello,world';?>
10:12 polyglotbot OUTPUT[hello,world]
10:13 jimmy <?="--"?>
10:13 jimmy pipp:<?="--"?>
10:13 jimmy pipp: <?="--"?>
10:13 polyglotbot OUTPUT[--]
10:13 jimmy pipp: <?="cotto"?><?="--"?>
10:13 polyglotbot OUTPUT[cotto="--"?>]
10:13 jimmy pipp: <?="cotto"?>
10:13 polyglotbot OUTPUT[cotto]
10:13 jimmy why?
10:14 cotto Pipp's tag parsing is br0ken
10:14 cotto I have the grammar fixed, but I haven't taken the time to figure out the actions
10:24 moritz rakudo: say (i+2i) * (i-2i)
10:24 polyglotbot OUTPUT[Could not find non-existent sub i␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 53 (EVAL_16:38)␤called from Sub '!UNIT_START' pc 17255 (src/builtins/guts.pir:321)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;eval' pc 950 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:527)␤called from Sub 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;evalfiles' pc 1275
10:24 polyglotbot ..(src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:688)␤called from Sub 'parr...
10:24 moritz rakudo: say (1+2i) * (1-2i)
10:24 polyglotbot OUTPUT[5+0i␤]
10:25 Tene Scheme is an interesting language to implement.
10:25 moritz that's why there are so many implementations :-)
10:27 moritz I played with scheme in school, but I never got around doing something useful with it
10:27 moritz (as with most languages, I might add)
10:28 cotto time for sleep
10:29 kj joined #parrot
10:33 jimmy time for going home
10:42 gaz joined #parrot
10:46 Tene I was hoping to use it for a presentation tomorrow.  It might not be very nice, though, as I had to implement so much at once to implement (let
10:46 Tene although I guess it's actually let*
10:49 Tene Eh, I guess I could have faked it better.
10:50 Tene I really should start experimenting with my idea for making interactive mode and eval work in the appropriate lexical environment...
11:00 ruoso joined #parrot
11:00 elmex joined #parrot
11:01 barney joined #parrot
11:05 particle joined #parrot
11:20 krunen joined #parrot
11:49 braceta joined #parrot
11:57 rurban_ joined #parrot
12:04 dalek r35524 | bernhard++ | trunk (4 files):
12:04 dalek : [eclectus] Add a Configure.pl. Add variable $hll.
12:04 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35524
12:14 dalek r35525 | cotto++ | trunk/src:
12:14 dalek : [cage] another PMC_x_val removal
12:14 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35525
12:17 jonathan hi hi
12:18 kj good morning
12:18 jonathan We have more snow! Pretty. :-D
12:18 * jonathan will start hacking on Rakudo in a bit...after lunch.
12:19 jimmy joined #parrot
12:43 dalek r35526 | cotto++ | trunk/src:
12:43 dalek : [key] remove a few PMC_int_val instances
12:43 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35526
12:43 TiMBuS joined #parrot
12:50 dalek r35527 | bernhard++ | trunk (5 files):
12:50 dalek : [docs] Remove LANGUAGES_STATUS.pod, it's now in the wiki
12:50 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35527
13:01 jimmy joined #parrot
13:14 Coke-away cotto: ping
13:26 particle1 joined #parrot
13:28 Whiteknight joined #parrot
13:32 jimmy joined #parrot
13:36 Whiteknight when is SVN going down today?
13:37 jonathan 19:00 UTC
13:37 Coke we're sure it's UTC and not Pacific? =-)
13:39 jonathan Ano.
13:39 Whiteknight okay, so I guess I have to get all my mad haxxoring skillz out in the next 7 hours
13:46 Casan jonathan: those slovak class come in quite useful :)
13:46 Casan heh maybe I should take some English typing clasSES
13:46 jonathan Casan: slovak?
13:46 purl slovak is like a car crash.  it SOUNDS like a car crash anyway.
13:46 jonathan OH!
13:47 jonathan s/ano/yes/
13:47 Casan heh
13:47 * jonathan is flicking between #slovakia.pm and #parrot
13:48 Casan jonathan: I was just surprised that whitenight understood.
13:48 szbalint until there is electricity or gas
13:49 jonathan I'm lucky. My heating is electric, and Slovakia has a spare nuclear power station or two... ;-)
13:49 jonathan (Though Austria will hate us for using 'em.)
13:50 jonathan Feel bad for the folks down in Bulgaria etc though. :-(
13:50 Casan jonathan: hehe, this is a good time to watch "The Saint" with Val Kilmer and Elisbeth Shue again :)
14:04 gryphon joined #parrot
14:05 szbalint jonathan: I'm in Vienna atm and I can see the hatred :P
14:06 jonathan szbalint: OH NOES! Please don't invade!
14:06 jonathan ;-)
14:06 szbalint heheh
14:07 jonathan Good relations with Austria are important. I need my regular Vienna Schnitzel. :-)
14:14 Lorn joined #parrot
14:17 szbalint indeed
14:20 Coke (bulgaria) zdrasti!
14:24 Coke dober vecher?
14:24 jonathan Coke: Maybe. That's close enough to Slovak that I understand it.
14:24 jonathan :-)
14:26 davidfetter joined #parrot
14:33 pmichaud okay, _why_ is svn.parrot.org migrating today.
14:33 pmichaud ?
14:33 pmichaud It would've been nice to have more than 11 hours notice.
14:33 PerlJam today?
14:33 purl i heard today was pretty close to planting day
14:33 pmichaud Also, my plan had been for Rakudo to remain on the perl.org servers.
14:34 PerlJam Hmm. I thought it was some nebulous time in the future. I hadn't heard it was today until just now.
14:34 jonathan This fun means we migrate to svn.parrot.org....only to migrate Rakudo back. :-|
14:34 ruoso joined #parrot
14:34 pmichaud and *not* be migrated to svn.parrot.org... EXACTLY.
14:34 pmichaud I had even requested (of particle) that we not do a migration until Rakudo could get its house in order.
14:35 pmichaud and the plan/expectation was that this would be happening *after* the Jan 2009 release.
14:35 jonathan I was rather surprised to see the announcement today too.
14:35 jonathan I don't think it was mentioned in yesterday's parrotsketch.
14:35 pmichaud I didn't see it.
14:35 jonathan Me either.
14:35 jonathan Hmm. This is a pain.
14:36 Coke I think we've been targeting this week (before the release) since a month ago.
14:37 pmichaud Why is this the first I've heard of it?
14:37 Coke that is presumably my fault, allison's fault, or very unlikely, your fault.
14:37 pmichaud and I've even talked to particle about the need for Rakudo to move out of the parrot repo before Parrot moves.
14:37 pmichaud and I mentioned it in the weekly conference calls as well.
14:37 Coke allison and I were on the thread for the move. not sure if partcle was.
14:37 PerlJam pm: seems to me that you're talking to the wrong person.
14:38 pmichaud PerlJam: thus my comment yesterday about "who's in charge of the infrastructural stuff"
14:38 Coke pmichaud: I would have to say allison at this point.
14:38 Coke I think this move will include an svn mirror living at perl.org
14:39 pmichaud Coke: so, does that mean that people can continue commits to svn.perl.org ?
14:39 Coke if that's the case, then perhaps there's no issue.
14:39 Coke pmichaud: I don't know how that works.
14:39 pmichaud I would *really* like to halt this today if at all possible.
14:39 pmichaud Or at least get a chance to figure out how it affects Rakudo without being under a five hour gun.
14:41 Coke worst case, you have to change your svn urls temporarily and then again when you move.
14:41 pmichaud *and* I have to announce it to everyone who is using Rakudo.
14:41 jonathan Twice in this case.
14:41 Coke I hate english.
14:41 Coke "all y'all"
14:41 purl "all y'all" is something quite different from just plain "y'all"
14:41 AndyA joined #parrot
14:42 Coke unless the mirror does what I think it might.
14:42 Coke I'll ask robrt, since he's the one that mentioned that.
14:42 pmichaud I still don't find this acceptable.
14:43 Coke ah. not a mirror. a redirect is what he said.
14:46 barney pmichaud: Is the Rakudo plan to stay with svn or to switch to git?
14:47 pmichaud barney: that was also one of the things I was planning to look at.
14:47 pmichaud I'm sorry, I just feel royally dissed by this.
14:49 pmichaud on the one hand, people in the "move parrot to git" ticket say that we shouldn't move to git because it'll cause bumps for current developers, then within just a couple of days we have "oh, we'll move the repository without telling anyone, regardless of what that might do to the languages"
14:49 register joined #parrot
14:53 Whiteknight I do feel like it's a little short notice
14:53 Whiteknight and especially so close to the release, I don't like having down-time that could be used to close tickets
14:53 kj Whiteknight: you can work offline, right?
14:53 pmichaud not only that, but I've been bringing up the topic for a month now
14:54 Whiteknight I probably can work offline, but who would want to?
14:54 kj dunno. I'm not saying it's as good, but it works
14:54 Whiteknight any roadbumps so close to a release is a bad idea I think
14:56 pmichaud Allison even said in one of the conference calls that it would occur *after* the January release.
14:56 pmichaud (okay, she said "probably".)
14:57 Casan ok, so whats the problem with postponing the move, until rakudo is ready?
14:57 purl I AM WOMAN! HEAR ME ROAR!
14:57 pmichaud I don't have a problem with postponing, but I'm apparently not the person who gets to make those decisions </fume>
14:58 Casan heh, seems like we could benefit from a little mandatory communication when it comes to infrastructure changes.
14:59 jonathan pmichaud: This is the first I knew of it to. It's certainly been badly communiciated.
14:59 jonathan I'm in favor of postponing it too.
15:00 pmichaud jonathan: perhaps add a comment to that effect to the parrot-dev thread, then?
15:00 pmichaud jonathan: so I'm not a lone voice ?  ;-)
15:00 jonathan pmichaud: Mailing it now.
15:02 Coke as I recall, we shot for post-january but are constrained because we needed a time that both perl.org and parrot.org admins were available.
15:02 Coke (communication) yup
15:03 dalek r35528 | bernhard++ | trunk/languages/pipp (4 files):
15:03 dalek : [Pipp] Set $?NS. Document divergence of allowing 'const' outside
15:03 pmichaud that constraint wasn't communicated
15:03 dalek : namespaces.
15:03 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35528
15:03 pmichaud actually, none of this has been coordinated with me.
15:03 Whiteknight that could very well be the issue: it happens when the admins are available and not when we want
15:05 pmichaud admins should be like lawyers -- they exist to find ways to achieve what you want, not to tell you what you can have.
15:06 Whiteknight so we want our admins to be blood-sucking liars?
15:06 pmichaud (and I say this having been a former admin.)
15:06 * Whiteknight apologizes to any lawyers present, he was just making a joke
15:06 Coke pmichaud: btw, jerry is on the conversation thread with the OSU/perl.org folks.
15:07 pmichaud why am I not on this thread, then?
15:07 Casan also admins should assist in defining you needs. the deliverable is a match between supply and demand.
15:07 Coke pmichaud: I think he was wearing his foundation hat.
15:08 pmichaud regardless, it feels to me as though Parrot foundation is ignoring the existence of Rakudo.
15:08 pmichaud or worse, doesn't care.
15:09 Casan pmichaud: think you just feel a little offended now which is natural. but I am sure they recognize the importance of rakudo. it is an obvious asset.
15:10 Coke My hope is that the redirect will do what you need; if so, then there's no user visible change aside from the downtown.
15:10 Coke ...
15:10 Coke down *time*
15:11 Whiteknight can we get a ballpark estimate for the amount of downtime?
15:11 pmichaud Whiteknight: five hours, I think.
15:12 Whiteknight those are usually the most productive hours of my day: right after I get home from work but before my wife wants my "attention"
15:12 Coke the hope is that it won't take that long, and that it's better to advertise the worst case and come in better.
15:13 Casan but then again, maybe its not too bad after all, rakudo developers get 5 hours off to fetch inspiration from $other_life
15:13 Coke looks like we didn't get confirmation on the time until about 8 hours ago.
15:13 Coke (and allison's email is about 7 hours ago.)
15:13 Coke (just providing what little data I have)
15:13 pmichaud Casan: (importance of rakudo)  -- my point is that nobody thought to include me on the migration discussions.
15:14 pmichaud Casan: even though I had explicitly brought them up multiple times in December.
15:14 pmichaud Casan: with multiple representatives of the Parrot Foundation
15:15 Casan pmichaud: yep is a serious slip, need to take advantage of the problem and implement actions to ensure it will happen natural in the future.
15:18 donaldh Hmmm, I'd have expected a large warning message on trac for this kind of upheaval. In commerceville you'd be hanged for less than 30 days notice of mandatory downtime.
15:23 hercynium joined #parrot
15:23 AndyA joined #parrot
15:23 Coke ObviousPoint: We're in VolunteerShantyTown.
15:24 bacek joined #parrot
15:24 Infinoid pmichaud: when I asked about it, the answer I got was "after the january release" too
15:24 AndyA joined #parrot
15:25 Infinoid also, I guess it constitutes a "no" answer to TT #138's feature request (git).
15:25 pmichaud Infinoid: I was pretty sure that we wouldn't see a migration to git in January.
15:26 pmichaud in some ways that also impacts Rakudo, though, since we don't necessarily want people to have to do both subversion and git.
15:26 Infinoid it doesn't bother me much.  but I can see how it would be a pain for rakudo
15:26 Infinoid (uncoordinated server migration, I mean)
15:26 pmichaud so we'd need to have clear instructions for Rakudo users in place before we do a migration
15:26 Infinoid yeah.  or just "make rakudo" to do a checkout from the appropriate place :)
15:27 Infinoid (speaking of which, I'm surprised we aren't doing that for partcl as well)
15:27 Coke (partcl) what now?
15:27 pmichaud "make partcl"  fetches partcl from its repo and builds
15:28 pmichaud (proposed)
15:28 Coke I'd rather have folks go to /partcl/ to get parrot.
15:28 pmichaud good answer.  :-)
15:28 Coke but would not be opposed to having a shortcut if it helped people test out partcl on parrot.
15:28 Coke my experience, however, is that having that sort of easy access to test partcl... doesn't help at all. =-)
15:28 Infinoid test exposure is the only reason I thought of it
15:29 Infinoid I think moving partcl out of the repository decreased its visibility somewhat...
15:29 Coke Infinoid: It was invisible /in/ the repository. =-)
15:29 Coke I moved it out so it would stop getting broken.
15:29 Infinoid fair enough.
15:29 PerlJam Infinoid: it's just as visible before and after I think.  (Coke didn't stop babbling about it at all!  ;-)
15:29 Infinoid hah
15:30 Infinoid Coke++ # partclbabble
15:30 Coke so I certainly sympathize with rakudo's pain on this migration thing. I certainly apologize for my lack of
15:30 Coke (more)
15:30 Coke communication skills on this one.
15:30 Coke (I'm very certain today, apparently)
15:30 pmichaud you certainly are!  :-)
15:31 pmichaud (apology) -- thanks, that helps a bit.
15:31 PerlJam okay ... will there eventually be a migration to git?
15:31 pmichaud PerlJam: of which?
15:31 PerlJam parrot
15:31 PerlJam (or rakudo)
15:31 pmichaud PerlJam: parrot -- probably not before 1.0
15:32 pmichaud rakudo -- depends on how difficult it is to manage rakudo/git and parrot/svn
15:32 Infinoid PerlJam: the main argument against it seems to be distraction of developer resources.
15:32 pmichaud for rakudo we'd also need a repository somewhere
15:33 PerlJam okay, I volunteer to help setup a git repo for rakudo.  someone just needs to point me in the right direction.  :-)
15:33 PerlJam But I'm slightly confused about parrot + git though.
15:33 pmichaud PerlJam: what confuses you about parrot+git ?
15:33 PerlJam Here's a direct quote from allison (via email):  I haven't heard any talk of moving Parrot to git, but it's something we could talk about for future years (too risky to change source control systems before 1.0). I don't find git appealing, though.
15:34 barney Perljam: It would help to have an uptodate Git Mirror of Parrot's svn
15:34 Infinoid and an "official" one, at that
15:34 PerlJam barney, Infinoid: indeed.
15:34 pmichaud PerlJam: I don't see the confusion.
15:34 * Infinoid threatens to export his (again)
15:34 barney I suppose that languages can easily be split off from there
15:35 PerlJam pm: I see people talking about parrot+git, but I get the distinct impression that it's not going to happen from allison.
15:35 barney I want to do this for eclectus. plumhead and pipp
15:35 pmichaud PerlJam: I think what I said matches what allison said -- not before 1.0
15:35 Infinoid I got the same response from particle
15:36 pmichaud lots of people speculate on #parrot that perhaps Parrot should move to git, but I haven't seen any foundation person say that.
15:36 PerlJam well, certianly not before 1.0 (everyone agrees on that)
15:36 PerlJam pm: right.  So ... who needs convincing? :)
15:36 Coke if the url is http in both cases, a redirect should be pretty transparent, I think.
15:38 PerlJam in any case, whatever the "official" repo is, as long as there's a way to query it via svn/git/svn/bzr/hg/darcs or whatever the major SCMs are, it's all good.
15:38 PerlJam oops, s/svn/svk/
15:38 pmichaud PerlJam: You'd need to convince the core development team, which doesn't seem likely anytime soon.  (And I would include myself in that group, on both respects.)
15:39 * Infinoid wants to put together a semipublic bidirectional git gateway
15:39 PerlJam Infinoid: me too (ish).
15:39 pmichaud PerlJam: as far as moving the rakudo repo, I already own the rakudoperl.org domain, so perhaps we could set something up there.
15:39 mberends joined #parrot
15:39 * Infinoid driving to work &
15:40 pmichaud I wonder if we could/should host rakudo on feather....
15:41 particle joined #parrot
15:41 moritz we certainly could
15:41 moritz but feather isn't very secure
15:41 moritz that's not a problem if we use git
15:42 pmichaud if it's good enough for pugs/synopses/std, it might be good enough for rakudo.
15:42 PerlJam There are multiple feathers.  One could be made more secure than the others.
15:42 pmichaud indeed, we could just put rakudo into the pugs repo.
15:42 pmichaud otherwise people have to deal with *three* repositories
15:42 pmichaud (pugs, parrot, and rakudo)
15:43 moritz pmichaud: do you want the same liberal commit policies for rakudo as there are in the pugs repo?
15:43 pmichaud moritz: I haven't decided that yet.
15:43 pmichaud moritz: I see some value in both approaches.
15:45 PerlJam pm: pretend rakudo was in a liberal commit repo like pugs.  When *wouldn't* you want someone to commit to it?
15:45 pmichaud PerlJam: I've noticed that a lot of people submit patches without having read the spec first.
15:45 pmichaud PerlJam: a liberal commit kinda goes against that.
15:46 PerlJam pm: but doesn't that end up correcting itself?
15:46 PerlJam (or you just want to short circuit all of the "that's not per the spec" messages?)
15:46 pmichaud PerlJam: it corrects itself if there are sufficient numbers of "editors" available.
15:46 pmichaud PerlJam: but if not corrected, it spreads.
15:46 pmichaud PerlJam: I.e., an incorrect meme ends up replicating itself throughout the codebase.
15:46 PerlJam right
15:47 pmichaud :et
15:47 pmichaud (oops)
15:47 pmichaud Let's just say that I've seen more than a few patches where I think "boy, I'm glad that wasn't committed."
15:47 PerlJam so, you like having "gatekeepers" who review patches with an eye towards making sure there are no bad memes and that the code fits the spec ?
15:48 pmichaud PerlJam: for Rakudo, yes.
15:49 pmichaud Not to pick on jonathan++ here, because his work is indeed outstanding, but we just spent the better part of two weeks refactoring in the rvar branch because of things going in differently than I thought they should.
15:49 dalek r35529 | bernhard++ | trunk/languages/pipp/src/pct:
15:49 dalek : [Pipp] NAMESPACE_NAME shan't be empty.
15:49 dalek : Constant names can be with namespace.
15:49 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35529
15:50 pmichaud (Clarification for those reading:  I'm very happy that jonathan put those in, and he had my full permission to do so because I was largely unavailable at the time.  But it did make for some heavy-duty cleanup work later.)
15:53 Coke I think pugs can work well. i think you'd drive pmichaud crazy if we tried it for rakudo. =-)
15:53 Coke s/drive him crazy/eat up all his tuits/
15:54 PerlJam pm: So ... I don't see how you really mitigate that unless you're the arbiter of all commits but then the rakduo truck-number is 1 (not good)
15:54 donaldh it does make rakudo a difficult project to contribute to as well.
15:54 donaldh Does no commit bit in svn mean no ability to experiment on a branch?
15:55 PerlJam donaldh: I was just about to mention that.
15:55 PerlJam I guess it all boils down to who can commit to trunk
15:55 pmichaud PerlJam: I'm not the arbiter of all commits
15:55 pmichaud PerlJam: that's not even the present case, nor do I expect it to be
15:55 PerlJam branches are okay.  changes can be vetted there and then merged to trunk as they get into shape.
15:55 barney With github.com you can set up collaborators in a convenient way
15:55 Coke You can avoid a lot of technological restraints if there is a good social framework.
15:56 Coke but I suppose we could theoretically limit commit access to trunk.
15:56 pmichaud we have multiple committers to Rakudo, and moritz/masak/jonathan/PerlJam/others are able to commit just fine, and commit patches
15:56 donaldh PerlJam: yes, all of us need to learn the codingstd and other expectations. a branch is a better place for that than patches attached to tickets.
15:56 pmichaud But that's a far cry different from "anyone can commit"
15:56 PerlJam Hmm.
15:57 PerlJam Only interested people *actually* commit, though anyone may (in pugs)
15:57 pmichaud PerlJam: People who submit patches are "interested"
15:57 pmichaud PerlJam: in many cases, they're also eager to commit
15:57 pmichaud that doesn't mean that they *should*
15:58 pmichaud or that they know the difference.
15:58 jonathan I'd agree with pmichaud that a completely open commit policy wouldn't be the best way for Rakudo.
15:58 Coke I think we are getting close to a time when folks on the left coast might be able to respond to my question about the redirect.
15:59 PerlJam jonathan: me too.  I'm just thinking of the flip side out loud :-)
15:59 jonathan Oh, it's worth considering.
15:59 jonathan I do very much want to have more people contributing.
15:59 jonathan But review is important too.
15:59 pmichaud well, one advantage of rakudo moving out of the parrot is that we no longer are constrained by parrot's commit policy
16:00 pmichaud s/the parrot/the parrot repo/
16:00 jonathan *nod*
16:00 PerlJam has it been a constraint?
16:00 Casan reasonable. put a control on commits to the trunk, but support an open flow of patches, and support streamlining the expecting programming standards and educate committers. when they have demonstrated they can handle, give them a test period and then..
16:00 pmichaud Casan: that's parrot's and rakudo's current approach.
16:00 Casan its natural.. can't we keep it :)
16:01 pmichaud PerlJam: (has it been a constraint)   only slightly, in that we require CLAs for anyone contributing to the parrot repo.
16:01 Infinoid rakudo also won't be constrained by parrot's codingstd tests.
16:01 jonathan I haven't felt our current approach has been a problem really.
16:01 pmichaud but I agree, I'm comfortable with the current approach.
16:01 jonathan Infinoid: OH YES! :-D
16:01 jonathan *chuckles*
16:02 jonathan (On the whole I don't mind them. I just have a stormy relationship with trailing whitespace. :-))
16:02 PerlJam Infinoid: so ... I can commit code with trailing whitespace all I want?   ;-)
16:02 Infinoid yep!
16:02 PerlJam jonathan++
16:02 Infinoid the majority of codingstd commits I've made in the last month (other than the ASSERT_ARGS mess) was to rakudo.
16:03 Infinoid not that I mind, of course :)
16:03 masak pmichaud++ # annoyed email
16:04 donaldh tbh the real problem with contributing to rakudo is not a patch/commit bit issue. It's more a problem of understanding what pmichaud++ and jonathan++ think is done right versus plan to refactor real soon.
16:05 donaldh I understand some code. Next time I look the goalposts have moved.
16:05 pmichaud Coke: *If* the subversion migration is completely transparent to Rakudo, such that people continue to use https://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk to obtain Rakudo *and* such that migrating Rakudo later is no more difficult than it would've been under perl.org, then I'm much less miffed about the move.
16:05 pmichaud somehow I think  that's unlikely, though, since a Rakudo migration would seem to involve the OSU and perl.org admins a second time.
16:06 PerlJam Who is actually going to do the "move"?
16:06 pmichaud PerlJam: I don't know.
16:06 Casan donalh: ticket++ have the codingstd masters of rakudo define the codingstd's, loop until sufficient
16:06 pmichaud yes, we will be establishing codingstds for Rakudo in the very near future.
16:06 pmichaud it's part of that "features versus docs" balance.
16:07 pmichaud (until now we've been largely adopting Parrot's codingstds, because (1) they're good enough and (2) we've been part of the Parrot repo)
16:08 dalek r35530 | jonathan++ | trunk/languages/perl6 (3 files):
16:08 dalek : [rakudo] class C does R[param1, ...] { ... } now works insofar as it chooses the correct role.
16:08 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35530
16:09 pmichaud hmmm, for some reason I'm not receiving messages from parrot-dev
16:09 Coke (involve the OSU again) but if that's the only downside, we just make allison buy them cake.
16:09 PerlJam Having the commit log output here is like watching magic happen.
16:10 PerlJam "nothing up my sleeve ... *bam* parametric roles!"
16:10 pmichaud "That trick never works!"
16:10 jonathan PerlJam: Oh, calm down. This is just one small part of parametric roles. :-)
16:10 PerlJam jonathan: I realize that, it
16:10 PerlJam 's still quite cool
16:10 jonathan pmichaud: Am I going to make your day go from bad to worse if I ask to talk about lexicals? :-)
16:10 Casan stumbled over this on parrotskettch:     particle: allison and i have an open relationship with osuosl and perl.org. i'll take ownership of any infrastructure tickets.
16:11 pmichaud jonathan: not at all
16:11 jonathan pmichaud: Whew!
16:11 Coke Casan: the 15 year old in me is ROTFLING.
16:11 pmichaud jonathan: although I guess it depends on the question :-)
16:11 jonathan OK, so where we're at now is that a Perl6Role does a multi-dispatch on the role signatures.
16:11 Casan Coke: hehe
16:12 PerlJam Coke: you ate a 15 year old?!?
16:12 jonathan And that in turn runs code to produce a Parrot role.
16:13 jonathan So essentially a role Foo[$x, $y] { ... } is like a (but not visible as a) multi Foo($x, $y) { make a role and return it }
16:13 jonathan And thus $x and $y are parameters, a normal sig gets built, and so forth.
16:13 pmichaud okay.
16:13 jonathan Inside that block are the methods.
16:13 jonathan role Foo[$x] { method x { say $x } }
16:14 jonathan And attributes etc.
16:14 jonathan Thing is, for these methods, they need to end up referring to the correct lexical scope.
16:14 jonathan Essentially, we need to capture them each time the body runs.
16:14 jonathan Questions.
16:14 purl well, questions is Dumper $data?  What implementations have you made?  You aren't trying to optimize prematurely, are you?
16:15 pmichaud wait, I have a question first.
16:15 jonathan (1) Do I need to clone all of the tested blocks inside the methods too? I'm hoping not.
16:15 pmichaud in role Foo[$x] { ... }      does the block still act like a BEGIN ?
16:16 jonathan I don't see how it quite can.
16:16 pmichaud agreed.
16:16 jonathan role Foo[$x] { say $x }
16:16 pmichaud So, here's the answer.
16:16 pmichaud if you create the role as if it's a multi, as you described
16:16 jonathan class A does Foo[1] { }; class B does Foo[2] { }
16:16 jonathan # I'd expect 1\n2\n
16:16 pmichaud and that multi gets invoked at the point of the role creation
16:17 pmichaud then the methods end up with a capture_lex at the point of the creation
16:17 pmichaud PCT handles that automatically
16:17 pmichaud (more)
16:17 jonathan Right, capture_lex is getting emitted.
16:18 pmichaud how do the methods end up in the newly-created Role now ?
16:18 pmichaud inherited?  add_method?
16:18 jonathan The role would look them up in the namespace.
16:18 jonathan Thing is, if you re-create the role a second time, it doesn't find them again. :-|
16:18 pmichaud doesn't that role have a different namespace than the "original" one?
16:19 jonathan For a particular role signature there is one namespace.
16:19 jonathan However, we may create many Parrot roles from the methods within that namespace.
16:19 pmichaud and each of those roles share that common namespace?
16:19 jonathan Right.
16:19 Coke PerlJam: (15 year old) that would explain the weight gain.
16:20 jonathan However, the methods within each role should capture the lexical scope at the time the role was created.
16:20 pmichaud that confuses me a bit (because allison says that classes and namespaces are isomorphic), but I think the answer is that the methods will have to be cloned as part of creating the role.
16:20 jonathan pmichaud: I kinda see a way to do this though.
16:20 jonathan (As in, cloning the methods.)
16:21 jonathan Which I hadn't thought of before, which actually makes it easier. :-)
16:21 pmichaud note that newclosure still exists -- it's a capture_lex + clone operation.
16:21 jonathan OK.
16:21 jonathan My question from above still stands.
16:21 pmichaud of course, you still have to do it from the outer scope.
16:21 pmichaud you do not need to clone the blocks inside the methods
16:21 jonathan OK, good.
16:22 pmichaud those blocks get capture_lex'd when the methods are invoked.
16:22 Whiteknight hey where was that list of things in Rakudo that were done and things that needed to be done?
16:22 jonathan That was what was going to scare me.
16:22 jonathan Have we thought about how capture_lex will play out under multi-threading?
16:22 pmichaud each outer block is responsible for capturing its immediate children upon invocation.  The children's children are handled by invocations of the children blocks (if they ever occur)
16:22 moritz Whiteknight: ROADMAP
16:22 Whiteknight moritz: I thought there was a page online somewhere?
16:22 PerlJam Whiteknight: you'd think it would be on rakudo.org somewhere wouldn't you?
16:23 pmichaud Whiteknight: it's on the perl foundation wiki
16:23 Whiteknight I dont know where I think anything would be
16:23 pmichaud this is another reason I'm thinking of activating rakudoperl.org
16:23 pmichaud so that I can get all of the rakudo-related stuff into one place.
16:23 jonathan pmichaud: OK. You spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have, so I trust your answer. :-)
16:23 moritz pmichaud: we should have all the rakudo stuff on rakudo.org, and news.rakudo.org as the blog
16:23 moritz pmichaud: or something like that
16:23 pmichaud moritz: except I don't own rakudo.org
16:24 pmichaud if Andy wants to turn it over to me, then we can do that.
16:24 moritz pmichaud: that's bad
16:24 jonathan pmichaud: I'm sure we could get whoever does to be co-operative.
16:24 jonathan I'd pitch in an hour or two for writing some site content and doing some bits on that.
16:24 moritz Whiteknight: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?rakudo_feature_status
16:24 shorten moritz's url is at http://xrl.us/bebd7u
16:24 Andy I'm thinking of making rakudo.org be Drupal rather than MT
16:25 Whiteknight thanks moritz, I just found it
16:25 Andy More content-y.
16:25 jonathan Andy: Would we be able to migrate over the current posts?
16:25 Andy of course.
16:25 purl Indubitably.
16:25 jonathan Could be a good plan.
16:26 PerlJam Andy: I think the site lies a little bit -- rakudo.org: Your one stop for Rakudo Perl, Parrot and Perl 6 news: Development, blogs, docs and more
16:26 PerlJam There is no "one stop"
16:26 Casan as for rakudo.org wouldn't the correct approach be to turn it over to the foundation, and have them mandate a maintainer to secure its use for the community.
16:26 Andy PerlJam: sure
16:26 pmichaud Casan: things happen slowly within the foundation.
16:27 Infinoid japhb: ping
16:27 Casan hence the maintainer
16:28 pmichaud Casan: to be quite honest, I'm a little frustrated at not controlling my own destiny in some respects.  The fact that Parrot's repo is moving without any consultation with me is yet another example of that.
16:28 Casan know the feeling
16:29 pmichaud so, simply saying "turn it over to the foundation" would seem to me to just bring me back to the status quo.
16:30 pmichaud (and beyond that, rakudo.org isn't "mine" to turn over. :-)
16:30 pmichaud Andy: if you want to make rakudo.org be Drupal instead of MT I'm all in favor of it.
16:31 Andy But we still need people to create content for it.
16:31 pmichaud what does it take to start granting "content creator" access for it?
16:31 pmichaud I know that there are several of us who would happily do so.
16:31 Casan pmichaud: my concern was main in relation to rakudo.org, having everything related to one domain would ease information management and understanding. and with ownership of the domain belongs to the foundation, maintainer(s) can be mandated. eg. andy&|you.
16:31 Andy I don't know from Drupal, but it can't be any less odious than MT.
16:31 pmichaud my experience with Drupal on parrot.org hasn't been too bad.
16:32 pmichaud and I do like that there's a wiki available, even if it's a particularly sucky on.
16:32 pmichaud *one
16:32 PerlJam heh
16:32 Casan pmichaud: I tend to stay system independent, I was mainly referring to the dns level.
16:32 Andy parrot.org is drupal?
16:32 purl i already had it that way, Andy.
16:32 pmichaud Casan: I'd much rather deal with Andy for dns than TPF :-)
16:32 PerlJam My experience with drupal is that as long as you aren't trying to customize it, it works well for the things it does.
16:32 pmichaud Andy: yes, I think it's drupal.
16:32 Andy casan: Are you concerned about my management of rakudo.org?
16:33 pmichaud Andy: I think Casan is speaking idealistically, not with respect to any particular person's abilities or biases.  :-)
16:33 Casan Andy: heh absolutely not, things look to fine :)
16:33 Andy It's OK ifyou do.
16:33 nopaste "Infinoid" at 96.238.213.50 pasted "Another batch of Configure.pl header parsing errors from mesa-7.3rc1 (care of gentoo's "x11" overlay)" (134 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/15306
16:34 pmichaud I'm not sure which wiki I dislike more -- the perlfoundation wiki (SocialText) or the one that is in drupal on parrot.org .
16:34 Casan Andy: yes as pmichaud mentioned, pure idealistically.
16:34 jonathan pmichaud: Is there a wiki you do like? ;-)
16:34 pmichaud jonathan: actually, the trac wiki is pretty darn good.
16:34 Andy pmichaud: We are not the target audience for Socialtext
16:34 pmichaud and yes, there's at least one other wiki I'm fond of, but I'm not sure the Perl 6 community would accept it :-)
16:35 jonathan pmichaud: I've been using Trac on one of the other projects I hack on.
16:35 Andy It's also sadly abandonware
16:35 Andy as far as the open source version.
16:35 jonathan pmichaud: And have liked it and its wiki. Especially integration with tickets and revisions.
16:35 pmichaud jonathan: yes, I've also been having thoughts about moving rakudo tickets off of rt.perl.org
16:36 pmichaud for similar reasons
16:36 dalek r35531 | jonathan++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/parser:
16:36 dalek : [rakudo] Parse does Foo[] (STD.pm does).
16:36 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35531
16:36 jonathan pmichaud: If we're going to stick with SVN, that makes sense.
16:36 PerlJam there's a git plugin for trac
16:36 PerlJam (not sure how mature it is though)
16:36 jonathan Oh, really?
16:36 purl well, really is it bad?
16:37 jonathan In that case, if it works, my above point is happily moot. :-)
16:40 Tene joined #parrot
16:42 Whiteknight pmichaud, is there any indication about which builtins will be implemented in PIR and which will be in the prelude?
16:42 russell_h PerlJam: the Trac git plugin has some performance issues, but they can mostly be worked around afaik
16:42 Whiteknight because I would like to try my hand at writing a few of the more mundane builtins, but don't want to do it in the wrong place
16:42 pmichaud Whiteknight: those that can be done well in the prelude will be there
16:42 pmichaud those that cannot won't.
16:43 pmichaud basically, any builtin that can be written in terms of other primitives should probably do so, whether it's in PIR or prelude
16:43 pmichaud we're really close to prelude in p6, though.
16:43 Whiteknight I was looking at Num.floor, Num.round, and Num.ceiling. Any idea where those should go?
16:44 PerlJam That sounded suspiciously like "write it in the prelude and if you come up against any roadblocks, that's probably where some PIR is needed"  :-)
16:44 pmichaud Whiteknight: any-num.pir for now
16:44 pmichaud if they don't exist already
16:44 pmichaud because .floor, .round, and .ceiling are likely methods on Any
16:44 Whiteknight oh nevermind, they already are implemented there
16:45 Whiteknight (I was looking in classes/Num.pir)
16:45 pmichaud yes, lots of things that look like they belong in Num/Int/Str/List/Hash   really go in Any
16:50 * jonathan plays spot the difference with Rakudo and STD.pm's parameter rule
16:50 pmichaud bbiab
16:51 barney Is there a way to get all package scoped variables? I might want to get rid of the constant table and use package vars instead.
16:53 Coke_away pmichaud: per robert, the redirect will not be transparent, but will provide a "repository moved" message to clients.
16:56 Coke_away ... but I think you need a recent client to see the nice message.
16:58 Infinoid barney: (regarding your recent email) if all you need is a readonly repository, git://squawk.glines.org/parrot-trunk is a mirror updated once every 10 minutes
16:58 Infinoid just trunk though, no branches
16:59 Coke_away looks like 1.3.2 client gives ugly message. 1.5.1 actually tells you where to redirect.
16:59 Coke_away so this won't be completely transparent.
16:59 Theory joined #parrot
16:59 Coke_away So, feel free to update your threat assessment. Regards. Errands, here.
17:00 barney Infinoid: That's perfect. Im cloning it
17:05 sjn joined #parrot
17:07 pmichaud Coke_away: thanks for the update.  I stand by my earlier assessments then -- moving today in this manner is a very bad idea and we should postpone.
17:07 pmichaud Coke_away: it would also be nice if I could start being cc'ed on these communications.
17:08 pmichaud (e.g., the message to and response from robert)
17:08 jonathan pmichaud: Is there an easy way to grab unique names/IDs?
17:08 jonathan (Only have to be unique within a sub...)
17:09 jonathan (er, a PAST::Block that is.
17:09 jonathan And in fact only within a signature...
17:09 pmichaud jonathan: you mean from actions.pm ?
17:09 jonathan Yes.
17:09 pmichaud PAST::Val( :value($block) )
17:09 pmichaud returns the reference to the block.
17:10 pmichaud (that's new in rvar)
17:10 jonathan pmichaud: Ah, no. I need many unique ones within a block.
17:10 pmichaud where $block is the PAST::Block structure
17:10 jonathan Ah, does it just have to be PAST::Blocks that I put in there?
17:10 pmichaud yes.
17:10 jonathan Ah
17:10 jonathan That won't quite cut it.
17:11 pmichaud using PAST::Val in this way doesn't generate the block code, it just returns a .const 'Sub' .... for whatever block you give it
17:11 jonathan sub foo(::T) { } is what i'm trying to make work.
17:11 japhb Infinoid: pong
17:11 pmichaud in that case, ::T is just a lexical within foo, yes?
17:11 jonathan Yeah, but the problem is that it's a type capture.
17:12 pmichaud just give it a dummy scalar
17:12 jonathan And we need to generate a parameter
17:12 jonathan Right, but it's what to *name* that dummy scalar. :-)
17:12 jonathan We need a unique name for each one.
17:12 Infinoid japhb: hi, I got some parse errors from a new version of opengl, and was wondering if you could take a look at them
17:12 jonathan Otherwise sub foo(::A, ::B) gets confused. :-)
17:12 pmichaud oh.  You can use .unique on any PCT node to get a unique thingy.
17:12 japhb Infinoid: yeah, just got the msg from purl, looking now
17:12 Infinoid ok, thanks
17:12 pmichaud my $name = $block.unique('fakeparam');
17:13 pmichaud er, :=
17:13 pmichaud I *think* you can also have nameless parameter nodes
17:13 dalek r35532 | bernhard++ | trunk:
17:13 dalek : [docs] Add news about HQ9+ and Pipp
17:13 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35532
17:13 pmichaud and they're unique.
17:13 pmichaud at least, I'm planning that parameters can be nameless.
17:13 jonathan oh awesome
17:13 japhb Infinoid: can you tar up your GL headers and send them to me?  I think the fix is simple, but it I need to go spelunking.
17:13 jonathan .uniq works
17:14 pmichaud (i.e., you can use a parameter as an operand without that parameter having to have a lexical name)
17:14 jonathan pmichaud: Nameless won't quite work either, since we need to make an entry in @?BLOCK so the binding of ::T can work.)
17:14 jonathan But .unique does it just great. Thanks!
17:14 register left #parrot
17:14 pmichaud you just need an entry in @?BLOCK for T, right?
17:14 jonathan Sadly not. :-(
17:14 pmichaud okay.
17:14 pmichaud .unique then
17:15 Infinoid japhb: can do, one moment
17:16 Infinoid (sent)
17:18 japhb Infinoid: OK, waiting for mail server to have it.
17:28 japhb Infinoid: just arrived.  Damn, that took a while.
17:29 Infinoid probably greylisting
17:29 Infinoid poor feather
17:32 japhb 'typedef void GLCchar;' ?  Seriously?  That's ... odd.
17:37 japhb Hmmm, at least it's always used as a pointer.  Now to figure out *why* this contortion ...
17:47 Infinoid someone probably thought it would be neat to redo all the typedefs again.
17:47 Infinoid I sometimes doubt doubt much more thought goes into it than that
17:47 Infinoid s/doubt //
17:49 japhb heh
17:50 japhb Unfortunately, in order to make the binding not completely suck, I now need to understand the API.  Sigh.
17:50 * japhb shaves a yak
17:51 pdcawley joined #parrot
17:51 particle1 joined #parrot
17:51 Infinoid japhb++ # making a binding that doesn't suck
17:51 japhb well, trying to, at least.  :-)
17:59 japhb Well, the nice thing is that QuesoGLC is claiming to actually be performant enough for real apps.  Which is damn good to hear, because back in the day there were no font renderers for GL that weren't either slow as molasses or bound to a particular desktop stack.
18:01 Infinoid yeah.  last time I tried to render text in opengl, I think I used sdl for rendering it
18:01 particle joined #parrot
18:02 japhb ... and SDL's font rendering is, as I recall, relatively limited ... unless you like hand-drawing all your fonts into a big image.
18:02 Infinoid it kinda worked ... somehow.  the interactions of those things are kinda spooky for me (not being too familiar with it all)
18:02 Infinoid I had libgtk in there somewhere, too.  what a mess
18:03 japhb I ended up designing my own stroke and bitmap fonts for drawing stats and debugging info on my GL windows, because everything available at the time (several years ago) was awful.
18:03 japhb :-)
18:11 japhb Oh.  My.
18:12 japhb Looks like characters are defined as void, because they are unicode, but can be represented as unsigned bytes, shorts, or ints in UCS1, UCS2, or UCS4, depending on the setting of a state variable.
18:12 japhb (At least, that's what I'm reading in the semi-related GLS spec)
18:15 Infinoid uh
18:16 Infinoid how does that even compile?
18:20 dalek joined #parrot
18:20 polyglotbot joined #parrot
18:21 dalek r35539 | Whiteknight++ | trunk/docs/book:
18:21 dalek : [Book] Remove some stuff about the optimizer which was out of place, rework some sections about compilation units to offer more explanations and use up-to-date info.
18:21 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35539
18:21 Whiteknight I assume dalek is not working today?
18:21 Whiteknight haha, and as soon as I say something...
18:21 jonathan joined #parrot
18:21 Infinoid opbots, believe polyglotbot
18:21 clunker3 But I do not trust you Infinoid
18:21 slavorg Ok
18:21 slavorgn Ok
18:22 leo joined #parrot
18:23 ask_ joined #parrot
18:23 PerlJam joined #parrot
18:23 wolverian joined #parrot
18:24 japhb Infinoid: that's why the funky typedef of GLCchar to void.
18:25 japhb Every string is a 'void *', interpreted based on runtime state.
18:25 Infinoid japhb: yeah, I just wouldn't expect passing void variables around to be very useful.  (void* I could understand, but I didn't see a * in the typedef.)
18:26 Infinoid guess it's added later
18:26 pmichaud joined #parrot
18:26 japhb Infinoid: Yup, and typedefing the pointer would have made sense.  But instead, they always refer to 'GLCchar *'.
18:27 slavorg joined #parrot
18:27 Infinoid cool.  not quite as nice as our STRINGs tho
18:28 dalek r35540 | Whiteknight++ | trunk/docs/book:
18:28 dalek : [Book] Add a little footnote about .emit and .eom
18:28 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35540
18:29 Infinoid ask_: Last month, you mentioned playing with a git mirror for parrot.  Was this just for fun, or is there a plan to go public with something like that?
18:30 japhb Nodnod.  Well, it was defined a dozen years ago.  Still, the GLS spec talks about how all API is done through the funky polymorphic UCS encoding, but the binary streams are always transcoded to UTF-8.  So clearly they had a *hint* that that might be easier to work with ....
18:31 japhb *cough* We should just switch to git entirely, like (say) Perl 5 did ... *cough*
18:31 * PerlJam perks his ears
18:31 Infinoid japhb: I already tried that.  see TT #138. :)
18:31 Infinoid Are these strings ever read in from the opengl libraries?  From the bindings' standpoint, if they're write-only, I think that makes things substantially easier.
18:32 barney Eclectus is now at   git://github.com/bschmalhofer/eclectus.git
18:32 Coke_away barney: you're ripping out everything! =-)
18:32 Coke barney++
18:32 PerlJam yeah, barney++
18:32 japhb I know, and I'm unhappy that it was implicitly dismissed.  The GNOME project did a study on what to change their source control to, and the top three were git (large lead), then Mercurial and Bazaar -- and apparently the number of people already using git for some other project was massive.
18:33 PerlJam (and Coke++ for starting the ball rolling)
18:33 jonathan ah, back...feather seemed to lose it's connection
18:33 Infinoid well, I don't intend to stop using git on the *client* side, in any case.  though now I'm looking for tools to make that easier
18:33 particle japhb: it was not implicitly dismissed *for now*.
18:33 particle er,
18:34 moritz s/not/only/?
18:34 particle it was not implicitly dismissed. in was explicitly postponed.
18:34 japhb Infinoid: well, I suppose you could glGetString() and pass that into GLC, sure.  But glGetString returns 'GLubyte *', so they've already crossed that bridge.
18:34 PerlJam japhb: Well ... why should parrot switch to git in any case?  Why not hg or bzr or one of the other distributed SCMs?
18:34 PerlJam (I'm pro-git, but I want to hear other opinions :)
18:35 Infinoid I haven't tried hg or bzr.  I'm a big fan of monotone, but I haven't really considered using it for parrot
18:35 particle give me a client for a distributed vcs running on parrot, and i'll use that
18:35 japhb PerlJam: My personal reasons?  1) I know git more, 2) more people know git than the others, and 3) git is faster in the hot-cache case than either of the others, and that's the way we normally work.
18:36 PerlJam particle: so ... provide git bindings for parrot.  /me adds an item to an ever-growing list.
18:36 PerlJam japhb: what do you think would preclude parrot from staying in svn?  (people can still use git clients all they want)
18:37 particle we have two releases before we go 1.0. i don't want to change our release procedures one bit unless we *must*.
18:37 Coke particle: then we probably should have delayed the svn move. =-)
18:37 PerlJam japhb: or, put another way, what problem does git solve?
18:38 donaldh http://www.gitcasts.com/ </troll>
18:38 * PerlJam likes asking the questions a lot more than answering them  :)
18:38 japhb particle, Coke: exactly.  If we're going to be moving repos anyway, might as well take the opportunity to get on a modern source control system.
18:38 particle coke: the original plan was for conversion *after* 0.9.0
18:38 particle japhb: no. "svn switch -relocate" is much easier than "paradigm shift"
18:39 Infinoid ... when it works.  which isn't always.  (but I've already described that in detail in the ticket)
18:39 dalek r35541 | Whiteknight++ | trunk/docs/book:
18:39 dalek : [Book] more info about strings, charsets/encodings, and escape sequences (some info stolen cold from PDD19)
18:39 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35541
18:40 Infinoid I don't feel too strongly about this at the moment.  I just do all my work in git branches, and avoid svn branches like the plague.
18:40 Infinoid so I hope you don't feel like I'm complaining too loudly :)
18:40 * PerlJam reads the ticket ...
18:40 particle nobody's complaining too loudly
18:41 PerlJam Does that really mean, no one is complaining loud enough?  :-)
18:41 japhb PerlJam: The thing that originally got me switching to git was that it worked offline like SVK, but it didn't constantly get corrupted, like SVK did.  Then after using it for a while, I realized how much I loved the git mindset, and I switched other repositories I work with from SVN to git.  And now I'm a happier person.  Merges JUST WORK.  rebasing is oh so nice, and so on.
18:41 Infinoid indeed, merge commits are a beautiful thing that svn still needs work on
18:42 PerlJam japhb: that's exactly my experience so far.  I suspect almost everyone who has made the switch has had such experience.
18:42 japhb I find it ridiculous that I still need to keep an SVN checkout of Parrot just to do the silly SVN properties.
18:42 PerlJam japhb: you don't
18:42 Infinoid I do a svn checkout once a month, the day before a release, to make sure codingstd passes
18:43 japhb PerlJam: git-svn supports properties now?  Oh happy day!
18:43 * japhb aims a small nuclear device at ~/svn/ ...
18:43 PerlJam Hrm.
18:47 * japhb looking at Infinoid's posted git-svn-dcommit patch to support auto-props ...
18:48 * japhb boggles at writing an app in Perl and then writing all the tests for it in raw shell ...
18:48 iblechbot joined #parrot
18:49 PerlJam Infinoid: so ... that bi-directional gateway.  That requires collusion from the svn side of things I think.
18:50 Infinoid yeah.  the cheap way (just doing a dcommit whenever the log has commits that aren't tagged with git-svn-id:) has the problem of always showing up as commits from the same user
18:50 PerlJam a one-way gateway would be nice, but unfortunately, it would have to go the wrong way as git can handle random patches, but svn not so much.
18:50 Infinoid one-way gateway?  meaning, readonly?
18:51 Infinoid I have that right now.  the problem is that you'd have to set up your repository to do commits directly, or use a script or somesuch
18:51 PerlJam right.
18:51 PerlJam (I have a git-svn clone of parrot myself)
18:51 Infinoid and the readonly mirror I have is really just my git-svn bounce dir, so plan to adjust my commit methodology anyway
18:53 PerlJam A bidirectional gateway would also have to be very careful about what it was gatewaying.  git supports "parallel history" while svn only supports "linear history"
18:54 Infinoid the mirror could map from Author emails to svn usernames when doing the commit, which wouldn't require any help on the svn server side of things, but then it would need password hashes for the committers
18:55 * Infinoid isn't sure where git-svn stores that.
18:55 dalek r35542 | jonathan++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src (2 files):
18:55 dalek : [rakudo] Parametric roles now clone methods, meaning that we get them attached to the right parameters.
18:55 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35542
18:55 Infinoid PerlJam: yeah, it would have to flatten it somehow.  I think dcommit is used to that though
18:55 moritz Infinoid, PerlJam: are you sure that such a thing doesn't already exist?
18:56 Infinoid moritz: a simple google search didn't turn up any code
18:56 moritz given the wide spread of both git and svn, I'd be fairly disappointed if not
18:56 Infinoid most people just use git-svn on the client side, directly
18:56 PerlJam moritz: why have a gateway when there's git-svn?
18:56 Infinoid yeah, that.
18:56 purl Sure, that.
18:56 japhb Found the GNOME DVCS survey results analyses: http://github.com/blog/287-gnome-dvcs-survey (shorter), http://blogs.gnome.org/newren/2009​/01/03/gnome-dvcs-survey-results/ (longer)
18:56 shorten japhb's url is at http://xrl.us/becinu
18:56 PerlJam moritz: I've *never* run across someone who wants to go the other way
18:57 Infinoid having an svn interface to a git repository would solve a lot of the problems with having to learn new tools, shifting paradigms, etc.
18:57 PerlJam The only reason we would want that is to make the transitional as gradual as necessary (or if the gateway worked well enough, those svn-lovers would never have to switch)
18:57 japhb A two-way mirror is definitely a smell to me -- it means that people doing work on the project are working around project management.
18:58 dalek r35543 | Whiteknight++ | trunk/docs/book:
18:58 dalek : [Book] Add small bit about :unique_reg and the register allocator
18:58 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35543
18:58 Infinoid japhb: from a certain perspective, anyone who uses git-svn is doing that.
18:58 Infinoid my interest in a two-way mirror is just to consolidate that effort somewhat
18:58 PerlJam japhb: no, it just means there's a schism in preferred SCM
18:58 japhb Infinoid: yes, I know.  But then so is SVK, to a lesser extent, which used to be the recommended way.
18:59 Infinoid it doesn't actually solve any of the merging problems, it's just a time saver.
18:59 PerlJam svk is great as far as off-line commits go
18:59 PerlJam merging is the real problem.
19:00 PerlJam svn 15. makes the merging fiasco less painful, but there are still some odd limitations.
19:00 PerlJam s/15\./1.5/
19:00 dalek r35544 | Whiteknight++ | trunk/docs/book:
19:00 dalek : [Book] Quick mention of .globalconst in the section about constants.
19:00 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35544
19:01 lathos So, how do I "register for trac", then?
19:01 Infinoid lathos: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/register
19:01 japhb My point is that if so many of us say "We really want to be using git so bad that we'll take a brain-damaged version of it over raw SVN, or even SVK", then that should be a clue that we really need to change the master repo, not build up increasingly large workarounds (and two-way mirrors, unlike a client change, have the potential to really frack things up, thus giving the git haters something to hang an argument on -- I'd prefer not to g
19:01 japhb ive them that.)
19:02 Infinoid true, I don't want to introduce any breakage
19:02 moritz japhb: but how many of us do really want to switch to git that badly?
19:02 PerlJam moritz: I'd like to.
19:02 lathos Right then. Done that, how do I get svn access?
19:03 japhb moritz: as far as I've been following things, quite a large percentage of those who have used git more than trivially.
19:03 PerlJam lathos: email allison or particle I think
19:03 Infinoid moritz: I'm using it already.  I'm just proposing to make my existing infrastructure more public
19:03 dalek r35545 | Whiteknight++ | trunk/docs/book:
19:03 dalek : [Book] A brief section about .loadlib and load_lib. Needs expanding.
19:03 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35545
19:03 particle "get svn access"?
19:03 lathos "Commit access on the new servers is managed through Trac, so if you're a
19:03 lathos committer and haven't registered on Trac yet, please do so now, so we
19:03 lathos can grant you svn permissions."
19:04 Infinoid or PerlJam's, or something like that.
19:04 japhb And again, though Parrot is certainly not a "Perl project", I think it's extremely telling that Perl 5 switched.
19:04 lathos I want to continue being able to commit to svn tomorrow, that's all.
19:04 Infinoid lathos: I think that just means get an account, which you've done
19:04 particle afaik, the parrot.org admins will do their best to give access to the same ids that perl.org had
19:05 PerlJam lathos: you could lend public support to the "don't switch yet!" crowd.
19:05 lathos DON'T SWITCH YET.
19:05 lathos And egads don't switch to git.
19:05 particle i'm part of that crowd, too
19:05 PerlJam email parrotdev
19:05 PerlJam lathos: what don't you like about git?
19:06 japhb lathos: what PerlJam just asked.  ;-)
19:06 lathos It's another knowledge barrier to contribution.
19:06 Infinoid I've already gotten my answer about not switching to git, and am not pushing that argument any more.
19:07 moritz git doesn't fit my development well. I always forget to start a branch before doing changes, and that always results in (to me) weird errors when I pull
19:07 moritz s/development/development model/
19:07 PerlJam lathos: so you would advocate staying with svn rather than changing to a "better" SCM?
19:07 japhb chromatic++ # An excellent rant on this subject via email
19:07 lathos PerlJam: Yep, definitely.
19:07 PerlJam fair poitn.
19:07 lathos Worse is better in this respect.
19:07 PerlJam er, point
19:08 particle git on windows needs some work.
19:08 japhb OK, so just to be clear lathos:  You're advocating that we stick with a dumb VCS, because our developers are not as educated as Perl 5's developers?
19:08 lathos No.
19:08 Coke japhb: way to troll. awesome.
19:09 PerlJam heh
19:09 lathos And that's such a loaded question I'm not going to bother answering it.
19:09 Coke +1 for troll, -100 for helpfulness.
19:09 japhb Coke: thank you, thank you very much
19:09 Coke japhb: if you want to advocate for git, I recommend putting your thoughts down on the trac ticket.
19:10 barney Anything speaking against creating a .gitignore file in tools/dev/mk_manifest_and_skip ? Just a small convenience for git-svn users.
19:10 lathos I guess it's better than advocating that we always switch to whatever happens to be the newest shiny object and make our developers spend less time writing Parrot code and more time learning support systems.
19:10 PerlJam The smarter git-svn gets, the less "need" there will be for an "official" git repo of parrot.
19:10 japhb Seriously though ... yes, I worded that with malice aforethought I suppose, but my underlying question is still there: Why are we admitting (as a larger community) it's the right thing for Perl 5, but too high a barrier for Parrot.  I really don't get that argument.
19:11 Coke Whiteknight: is .emit even legal syntax anywhere anymore?
19:11 lathos It's not the right thing for Perl 5, it's just what the Perl 5 people have done. Big difference.
19:11 japhb lathos: Interesting!
19:11 PerlJam Why did p5p switch?  (Is there a mail  thread about it?)
19:12 lathos Because Leon.
19:12 moritz japhb: perl 5 didn't switch from svn to git, and it has a different development model than parrot
19:12 japhb PerlJam: because it's not Perforce.
19:12 moritz PerlJam: because p4 isn't free. Because the pumpkings didn't like p4. Because it makes patch integration between branches easier
19:13 moritz ... because users without p4 access didn't have access to meta data
19:13 Whiteknight Coke: I'm not sure it if is or not. It was in IMCC last time I looked, but I haven't checked that there was any logic to back it up
19:13 japhb Or rather, someone thought it was a good idea to get off Perforce, did all the necessary work, and presented a beautiful working repo.
19:13 moritz (and there was no anonymous p4 checkout)
19:13 Coke Whiteknight: I thought it was ripped out years ago; .emit\nsay 'hi'.eom fails.
19:13 Whiteknight Coke: I'm pretty sure that .emit just moves Flex into the PASM mode and not into PIR mode
19:13 lathos Yes, inded; Leon did it as a fait accompli. (Often the best way to do things; often the worst.)
19:13 Whiteknight I could be wrong, I'll do some tests and remove it if not
19:13 Coke Whiteknight: .emit isn't in t/
19:13 PerlJam okay, my question was really "why did p5p switch to git as opposed to something else?"  (I know they needed to switch)
19:14 barney A good reason for switching to git, is that commit history in branches is easily available.
19:14 lathos PerlJam: Because Leon.
19:15 Infinoid I've never used perforce, but it seems quite rare that I hear anything good said about it
19:15 lathos I rather liked it, but there you go.
19:15 japhb And the reason for switching to git (aside from the personal preference of the repo creator), is that it is generally agreed to be the top dog DVCS.
19:15 lathos Generally agreed by its supporters. :)
19:15 PerlJam japhb: by who?
19:15 particle i heard good things about p4
19:15 Infinoid barney: yes, I really miss that with svn
19:15 japhb Infinoid: it was actually quite nice ... when it came out.
19:15 lathos SVN is pretty much the new CSV new. git isn't quite yet.
19:15 lathos s/CSV/CVS/
19:16 lathos Maybe in a few years.
19:16 PerlJam git is VC done right (but so is hg and bzr and others)
19:16 Infinoid from a newbie's perspective, git is VC done incredibly weirdly
19:16 lathos I thought arch was VC done right.
19:17 Infinoid but still not as weird as darcs/tla/whatever its called nowadays.
19:17 japhb PerlJam: See the links I posted earlier.  The GNOME survey determined that lovers of every DVCS loved their own first, git second (if their favorite was not git), and all the other DVCS's less than SVN.  So not only is git the most commonly loved DVCS, it is respected by the other DVCS lovers ... who otherwise all hate each other.
19:17 Whiteknight Coke, I think you're right. I can't find ".emit" in imcc.l anymore
19:17 lathos (And HURD is kernel done right. :)
19:17 PerlJam LOL
19:18 Infinoid well, git also has one hell of a reference project to work with.
19:18 Infinoid (and it has done incredible things for it)
19:18 japhb Infinoid: YES.
19:19 japhb Personally, I love git, I respect hg, and generally think of everything else as ranging from "meh" to "DEAR GOD LET ME FLEE".  I mean, darcs had some great ideas.  They were incorporated into the newer DVCS, without also bringing the slow.
19:19 PerlJam honestly, the main reason I use git today is because of who created it.  a while back I was getting frustrated with svn and started looking for a replacement I saw hg, bzr, darcs, and git.  I chose git based on name-recognition and "heck, he created linux, didn't he?"
19:20 PerlJam Since git was far and away what I needed, I didn't really look at the others.
19:21 PerlJam I suppose had I put an honest effort into learning bzr or hg or something, I'd be advocating one of those today
19:22 japhb lathos: arch, darcs, etc. helped set the stage, but like the early cars and planes, the general concept was good -- the implementation, often not so much.
19:22 Infinoid nowadays, git just seems to have more social inertia than the others.  the common first reaction of someone reading a guide on obtaining a checkout with hg or bzr is like "so, that works like git, right?"
19:22 lathos I don't know why you're telling me. I don't give a shit.
19:22 PerlJam heh
19:22 japhb LOL
19:23 Casan VCS is like religion, thread carefully.
19:23 PerlJam vi!
19:23 PerlJam emacs!
19:23 japhb I was waiting for that ...
19:23 Infinoid ne!
19:23 japhb padre ?
19:23 purl padre is, like, http://padre.perlide.org
19:24 lathos Casan: Not really; religion choice actually makes some difference to your life.
19:24 Robrt joined #parrot
19:24 PerlJam padre is almost a contender for the title
19:24 Robrt svn going down now, unless someone scream really loud.
19:24 japhb (Haven't actually used Padre yet, but it's definitely rising on the "interesting stuff" meter what with STD syntax highlighting and all ...)
19:24 moritz padre is thankfully not a religion ;-)
19:24 PerlJam Robrt: is this "the switch"?
19:24 Robrt PerlJam: so other people were supposed to have announced.
19:24 moritz Robrt: was pmichaud's scream on the mailing list loud enough?
19:24 Robrt moritz: I don't read the mailing list.
19:24 lathos Padre will be interesting when I can run it.
19:24 Casan lathos: in relation to emotions.. can become a steamed topic.
19:25 Infinoid and a neverending one :)
19:25 PerlJam Robrt: pmichaud would rather the switch not happen.
19:25 masak Robrt: something about that comment is vaguely worrying.
19:25 Robrt At all?  Wow.
19:25 Robrt masak: which one?
19:25 masak Robrt: that you don't read the list.
19:25 lathos Also chromatic would rather the switch happens after the next release.
19:25 moritz Robrt: http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/p​arrot-dev/2009-January/000943.html
19:25 shorten moritz's url is at http://xrl.us/beciqn
19:25 japhb lathos: VCS choice *does* make a difference to your life.  It saves time and reduces stress.
19:25 Robrt PerlJam: Let me see if I can find Coke or Allison
19:25 PerlJam Robrt: "Can we please postpone this until we get a chance to decide how
19:25 PerlJam Rakudo should transition in all of this?"
19:26 lathos japhb: You seem to have no sense of humour.
19:26 PerlJam quoting Pm
19:26 lathos This often happens with advocates.
19:26 Robrt Ugh.
19:26 Robrt I wish y'all could get your story together.
19:26 Robrt Also, Hi Simon.  Long time.
19:26 japhb lathos: Sure I do.  I'm smiling as I type.
19:26 lathos Hey Robert. Yes.
19:26 Robrt masak: I don't really have time or intereste to follow Parrot development right now.
19:27 masak Robrt: but you're involved in the switch?
19:27 lathos Robrt: If you don't have time or interest to follow Parrot development, please don't fucking get involved in breaking it.
19:27 japhb Robrt: actually, a couple of the complaints on the mailing list were that people didn't even know something was happening today, so didn't get a chance to get said story together.
19:27 Robrt masak: I run the infrastructure.
19:27 masak Robrt: that's the worrying part, then.
19:27 moritz Robrt: I know you have no part in this, but most of us imagined the transition (and communication before it) quite differently
19:27 masak this affects devs.
19:27 Robrt japhb: Don't blame me.
19:27 moritz japhb: Robrt is just doing what he was asked to, and so far did a great job
19:28 Infinoid wow.  guys, this isn't Robrt's fault.
19:28 Robrt I'll hold off for now and fire off an email to the involved.  No skin off my back if we wait.
19:28 japhb Robrt: I wasn't.  Er, just trying to let you know re: "Ugh. I wish y'all could get your story together."
19:28 masak I'm also not blaming Robrt
19:28 Robrt japhb: yes.  "communication is hard"
19:28 masak but clearly there has been too little consensus about the move.
19:28 Robrt Anyway, I have come here, seen the screams of anguish, will go back and ask the people who asked me to do this what they want.
19:28 lathos Good plan.
19:28 japhb Robrt: exactly.  And for what it's worth, I agree with moritz and Infinoid -- not blaming you.
19:29 Infinoid thanks for your help, Robrt
19:29 PerlJam Yeah, Robrt++ for putting up with the flak even
19:30 japhb OK, so anyway, I think I've said my peace for the moment on the git issue.  Now back to trying to solve Infinoid's OpenGL problems ...
19:31 particle left #parrot
19:33 Whiteknight great, I've spent the last few hours mentally preparing for a move that isn't happening. It's like SVN blueballs over here
19:36 japhb LOL
19:36 Casan well then.. what is the outcome of all this? (though I assume it is not finalized). should the developers prepare for a change that is already defined but the time, or a change which will be defined after a more thorough evaluation by pmichaud et al. ?
19:37 Infinoid I don't know.  I assume the switchover will happen at some point; I don't really mind either way.
19:38 moritz Casan: allison seems to be fairly determined on moving to a svn server at parrot.org
19:38 * Infinoid will keep working locally, and defer worrying about how to commit
19:38 moritz Casan: apart from that, nothing is clear
19:38 Casan ok, intentions exist, definitions do not.
19:39 barney I plan to move Pipp after the January release
19:42 Robrt Because of how we're doing the switch, you shouldn't need to re-checkout after the move.  (if/when we move)
19:42 Robrt just svn switch --relocate
19:43 Coke Robrt: I called it off.
19:43 Whiteknight Are there any languages in languages/ that are basically abandoned?
19:43 braceta joined #parrot
19:43 Coke Whiteknight: most of them?
19:43 purl i heard most of them was because of the stupid 01_request failure
19:43 Coke Whiteknight: anything that doesn't build is a good candidate.
19:43 Robrt Coke: cool.  standing down from red alert.
19:44 Coke Robrt: sorry about the fire drill. we'll do better next time. Thanks for putting up with us.
19:44 pmichaud Robrt: sorry for the inconvenience
19:44 Whiteknight because I would start moving a few of them out to new repos, but I dont wan to step on any toes
19:44 pmichaud Robrt: and thanks for your ongoing support/help
19:44 Coke Whiteknight: if a maintainer is listed, ping them.
19:44 Coke if they don't care, we can move it over to squawk.
19:44 * Robrt nods.
19:44 Robrt no problemo
19:44 Coke no point in creating a brand new repo for something that doesn't have a lot of commits.
19:45 Coke (honestly, no point in doing that, even, i suppose.)
19:45 Coke we can always just say "look in the repo at version foo"
19:45 Coke thalhammer?
19:45 pmichaud Coke: thank you for calling off the switch.
19:46 Coke Robrt: as long as you're here...
19:47 Robrt ...
19:47 Coke has anyone talked to you about carving out languages/perl6 into https://svn.perl.org/rakudo ? (or something similar) ?
19:47 barney Whiteknight: There should also be a MAINTAINER file within the language
19:47 Robrt Nope.
19:47 Robrt Nobody's discussed it.
19:47 pmichaud Coke: we're still looking at whether we want to do git or svn.
19:47 Coke Ok. I suspect patrick will be doing that shortly if they pick svn.
19:47 * Robrt nods.
19:47 pmichaud and my expectation was that we'd have that discussion around the January release.
19:48 Robrt We've been moving a lot of our other stuff towards git.
19:48 Robrt it's the current hotness.
19:48 pmichaud Robrt: while we're on the subject, do you have a preference from an admin perspective?
19:48 Robrt At the moment we don't have a hosted git solution, iirc.
19:48 Coke (is there a conversion path from svn to git?)
19:48 Coke ah.
19:48 Robrt There is a very good conversion path.
19:48 japhb Coke: yes, it works quite well.
19:48 Robrt We're in the middle of converting qpsmtpd, which will be our test case.
19:49 Coke pmichaud: is your plan to just take those things in languages/perl6 and have that be the top level of your new repo?
19:49 pmichaud Coke: well, I needed to look a  bit more at how to handle a separate Parrot (e.g., follow partcl's lead)
19:49 Coke (I presume you want to keep your version history, e.g.)
19:49 pmichaud but yes, I'd like to keep version history.
19:50 pmichaud If it's likely that Rakudo will move to git at some point in the next ~6 months, I'd like to do that now instead of having two repo moves in that period of time.
19:50 Coke I suppose worst case you could just clone the repo, and then rip out everything and move your directory up two levels.
19:51 pmichaud but there's also the question of what web site we want people to go to for rakudo stuff.
19:51 Robrt Coke: I'm heading to lunch, and then a meeting, will try and keep this window open if I can.  But at the moment the short version is: We don't have a scheme for supporting git, although I think we know how we'd do it.  But moving git repositories around is a lot easier than moving svn repositories, so even if the repo was on github or something, it's easy to change later with no loss.
19:51 pmichaud Robrt: that's extremely useful and helpful information, thank you.
19:52 barney git filter-branch --subdirectory-filter languages/eclectus/ worked fine
19:52 Robrt To luch I go.
19:52 Infinoid lunch, great idea.
19:52 Infinoid bbl &
19:55 Coke pmichaud: our next window to do this may very well be shortly after the release next week.
19:56 pmichaud Coke: that is okay.
19:56 pmichaud Coke:  there's a big difference between "1 week notice" and "4 hours notice".   I can at least have a plan in place and alert people it's coming.
19:56 pmichaud There are a lot of people who use Parrot now who are *not* on parrot-dev, and have no desire to be.
19:57 Coke so how would we announce things to them? (I'm adding something to the website now.)
19:58 moritz Coke: through p6-announce, the blogs, p6u, #perl6, ...
19:58 pmichaud perl6-compiler is a good start.
19:58 pmichaud So are the use.perl blogs, Planet Perl 6, Rakudo.org, etc.
19:58 rurban_ joined #parrot
19:58 pmichaud the rakudoperl twitter feed
19:58 tewk Whiteknight: can/is generational_ms.c used? where is the memory barrier code?
19:59 Whiteknight tewk, generational_ms.c is not used and is probably broken very very badly
19:59 Whiteknight memory barrier code used to be in include/parrot/dod.h, but I think that file has been renamed
20:00 tewk :q
20:00 Whiteknight include/parrot/gc_api.c
20:00 Whiteknight tewk, I wanted to ask you what was the status of the ecmascript language?
20:00 TimToady phone
20:01 Coke note added to https://www.parrot.org/download
20:02 particle joined #parrot
20:03 tewk Whiteknight: I just tried to work on it a little lately, it does very little right now.  I really don't have time to spend on it. :(
20:04 Whiteknight okay
20:05 tewk I don't claim ownership, anyone can do as they please with ecmascript
20:06 Whiteknight I'm just thinking about where/when to move it out of the parrot repo
20:07 tewk git, github if nothing else.  I'm kinda sad to see languages leave the repo, I think they will rot.
20:07 Coke tewk: they need a champion to work on them.
20:07 tewk It be nice if parrot.org could start a langauge incubator repo or something.
20:07 Coke or they'll rot /in/ the repository.
20:07 japhb tewk: I agree ... but unfortunately, the are already.  :-(
20:07 Coke tewk: squawk.googlecode.com
20:09 japhb It's not git, but it's still nice to see a combined, relatively obvious repo for various HLLs to share.  ++ to whomever set that up.
20:09 Coke particle.
20:09 purl mailto:jerry.gay@gmail.com
20:09 Coke wve.
20:09 Coke wave.
20:09 Coke wave is mailto:jerry.gay@gmail.com
20:12 japhb .oO( Maybe we should set up a similar repo on github, and let language owners decide where they want to work.  Then again, maybe that just makes things worse.  Hmmm. )
20:13 Coke if this is just a place for languages to go so we don't kill them, then here is fine.
20:13 Coke if they want git, they can move it there on their own.
20:14 Coke git: as in, "you stupid git."
20:14 Whiteknight yeah, this seems like a great place for language projects that aren't self-sustaining
20:16 Whiteknight once language projects to become more popular, of course they are going to want their own development environment
20:17 Coke yup.
20:18 Coke we might want to eschew squawk.googlecode.org and just leave them at the old version of the repository.
20:18 Coke and put up a wiki page on trac pointing at them;
20:18 Coke then if someone wants it, they can just /start/ it, instead of /move/ it.
20:19 Whiteknight can you make me a member of that squawk project?
20:19 tewk Whiteknight: Gc_gms_hdr seems like a lot of overhead per object.
20:19 Whiteknight Gc_gms_hdr is a lot of overhead per object
20:19 Coke Whiteknight: what's your googleid?
20:19 Whiteknight the GMS collector isn't the one I wrote over the summer
20:20 Whiteknight Coke: wknight8111@gmail.com
20:20 Coke Whiteknight: done
20:20 Whiteknight w00t
20:20 Coke I think the top level dir in trunk here should be as it is under languages/
20:20 japhb Coke: The downside of leaving the languages in the old version of the repo is that people who *do* decide to pick up a language will be left with false expectations -- namely, that when they revive the language, it will be part of the master parrot repo again, and can assume that directory structure, etc.
20:20 Coke so languages/tcl is "tcl/" in squawk.
20:20 Coke japhb: fair enough.
20:21 Coke doesn't hurt to make a snapshot copy in squawk.
20:21 japhb nodnod
20:21 Whiteknight and the old repo will probably contain an old version of Parrot
20:21 japhb yup
20:21 Coke rdice++
20:23 japhb Coke: what happened?
20:23 purl We don't know what happened, so tell everyone nothing happened.
20:24 * Coke is on a con call that richard is talking on right now.
20:25 japhb ah
20:25 Infinoid purl: nothing happened, and we loved every minute of it.
20:25 purl Infinoid: what?
20:32 Coke what?
20:32 Coke what is <reply>What?
20:32 Coke what?
20:32 * Coke smacks purl.
20:32 purl Oh baby, you do it so *good*!
20:33 * Whiteknight is very disturbed by this bot
20:34 Whiteknight purl what is <reply> What?
20:34 purl no idea, whiteknight
20:34 Whiteknight purl, what is <reply> What?
20:34 purl whiteknight: no idea
20:34 Whiteknight purl, what? is <reply> What?
20:34 purl <reply> is maybe... or
20:34 Whiteknight what?
20:37 Coke give up. =-)
20:38 moritz that /thing/ is just not logical
20:38 Coke purl,  your mother.
20:38 purl purl's mother is the root of all evil.
20:39 mberends joined #parrot
20:45 donaldh joined #parrot
20:46 Whiteknight purl is probably written in some goofy programming language, like perl
20:46 lathos Some obsolete version of it too, no doubt.
20:46 Whiteknight a bunch of silly pseudocode line noise
20:47 dalek r35546 | bernhard++ | trunk (2 files):
20:47 dalek : [codingstd] delete trailing whitespace
20:47 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35546
20:48 dalek r35547 | bernhard++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src (3 files):
20:48 dalek : [codingstd] trailing spaces
20:48 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35547
20:50 Coke TimToady: dropping off call due to $DAYJOB
20:52 dalek r35548 | jonathan++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/parser:
20:52 dalek : [rakudo] Try to fix END blocks to work with pre-compiled modules and with lexicals.
20:52 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35548
20:53 dalek r35549 | jonathan++ | trunk/languages/perl6/t/pmc:
20:53 dalek : [rakudo] Fix make test by tracking roles change in PIR tests for Perl6MultiSub.
20:53 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35549
20:55 dalek r35550 | moritz++ | trunk/languages/perl6/t:
20:55 dalek : [rakudo] add test for bare 'say' being an error to t/spectest.data
20:55 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35550
21:05 dalek r35551 | bernhard++ | trunk/tools/dev:
21:05 dalek : [codingstd] make Perl::Critic happy
21:05 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35551
21:20 dalek r35552 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/lua/config/makefiles:
21:20 dalek : [Lua]
21:20 dalek : - some libraries are conditional
21:20 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35552
21:22 nopaste "barney" at 84.154.4.83 pasted "strange 'loadlib' effect" (4 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/15310
21:22 Tene_ joined #parrot
21:27 Coke eclectus was removed, right?
21:28 barney yes, moved to github
21:28 Coke (ack -al eclectus still shows a lot of removable hits)
21:33 dalek r35553 | simon++ | branches/strings/pseudocode (2 files):
21:33 dalek : Finish copying the function signatures into the Perl code, now time to implement them all.
21:33 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35553
21:38 * Coke makes "make TEST_JOBS=3" work for tcl's core tests.
21:40 dalek r35554 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/lua (2 files):
21:40 dalek : [Lua]
21:40 dalek : - add a Configure.pl
21:40 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35554
21:42 dalek r35555 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/markdown (2 files):
21:42 dalek : [Markdown]
21:42 dalek : - add a Configure.pl
21:42 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35555
21:43 dalek r35556 | fperrad++ | trunk/languages/WMLScript (2 files):
21:43 dalek : [WMLScript]
21:43 dalek : - add a Configure.pl
21:43 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35556
21:44 dalek r35557 | bernhard++ | trunk/languages/t:
21:44 dalek : Don't mention eclectus in languages/t/harness
21:44 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35557
21:45 dalek r35558 | bernhard++ | trunk:
21:45 dalek : Don't mention eclectus in MANIFEST.generated
21:45 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35558
21:45 dalek r35559 | jonathan++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/builtins:
21:45 dalek : [rakudo] When composing attributes into a role, we need to carry any properties along with them, otherwise default values and traits and so forth don't work.
21:45 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35559
21:45 Coke whee. make test with jobs=3 takes 116s, down from 200+ single threaded.
21:45 Coke (for partcl)
21:47 dalek r35560 | jonathan++ | trunk/languages/perl6/src/parser:
21:47 dalek : [rakudo] Since when we are parsing a signature we may be doing it for a package now (e.g. a parameterized role), we may already have got a block created. So check for this and use the existing one if so (otherwise we lose $block<pkgdecl>).
21:47 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35560
21:47 barney Coke: for some reason svn  might not remove languages/eclectus
21:48 dalek r35561 | fperrad++ | trunk:
21:48 dalek : update MANIFEST
21:48 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35561
21:48 moritz if there are user-generated files in the dir, like Makefile, it's not removed
21:49 dalek r35562 | bernhard++ | trunk:
21:49 dalek : Show 'eclectus' and 'hq9plus' in 'svn status' if they are there.
21:49 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35562
21:50 dalek r35563 | bernhard++ | trunk:
21:50 dalek : remove eclectus and hq9plus from MANIFEST.SKIP
21:50 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35563
21:56 barney Ah I did a 'ack-grep -il'  not a 'ack-grep -ial'   when removing eclectus
22:00 lathos How do I alias one method to another in P6?
22:00 lathos &B := &A does not do what I expect.
22:00 lathos ("A method named 'A' already exists in class 'Foo'. It may have been supplied by a role.")
22:00 pmichaud Binding has some issues in Rakudo.
22:00 pmichaud I don't know about method binding, though.
22:01 lathos OK. For now I'll just call it directly.
22:01 jonathan I don't even know what the syntax is for that.
22:01 jonathan &B := &A relies on the methods being look-up-able in the namespace...
22:02 jonathan Or are they meant to be?
22:02 * jonathan can never quite remember that one
22:03 Whiteknight joined #parrot
22:04 dalek r35564 | bernhard++ | trunk/config/gen/makefiles:
22:04 dalek : Remove moved languages from config/gen/makefiles/languages.in
22:04 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35564
22:05 dalek r35565 | bernhard++ | trunk:
22:05 dalek : Remove hq9plus from MANIFEST.generated
22:05 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35565
22:05 iblechbot joined #parrot
22:12 particle1 joined #parrot
22:12 Robrt left #parrot
22:28 tewk Whiteknight: ping
22:29 Whiteknight Tewk: pong!
22:29 gryphon joined #parrot
22:36 dalek r35566 | bernhard++ | trunk/tools/dev:
22:36 dalek : [codingstd] svn props for new file
22:36 dalek review: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn​/parrot/revision?rev=35566
22:42 japhb Oh dear heavens, the GLC string handling is crazy: http://quesoglc.sourceforge.net/group__con​text.php#g33fa134e53247cb1fbb6805b2f2af9d9
22:42 shorten japhb's url is at http://xrl.us/becjkt
22:42 Whiteknight Where's the PMC Unionval ticket? RT or TT?
22:43 barney https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/w​iki/PMCUnionDeprecationTasklist
22:43 cotto rt
22:43 cotto the wiki page has a link to the rt
22:44 Casan joined #parrot
23:26 Tene joined #parrot
23:26 Whiteknight thanks barney, I posted a note there
23:28 Limbic_Region joined #parrot
23:33 Infinoid japhb: yep, that's insane
23:33 Infinoid parrot++ # stashing encoding info in the string structure
23:40 japhb Infinoid: hmm.  I'm tempted to say that for the time being, I'll just leave it as is (void pointers back and forth).  In the longer term I see three options to do better:
23:41 japhb 1. Force UTF-8 mode, and use NCI's native cstring conversion.
23:41 japhb 2. Add explicit extra routines to do the conversions.
23:42 TiMBuS joined #parrot
23:42 japhb 3. Rewrap each routine that touches GLCchar * with something that introspects parrot's string structures and autoconverts.
23:42 Infinoid option #1 doesn't seem so bad.  if I understand their motivation correctly, it's to adapt to systems which normally use this or that string format, right?  handling encodings on a per-string basis is probably a bit overboard for the typical QuesoGLC user.
23:43 japhb That last one involves additional magic to watch for context and string type changing out from under the library, sigh.
23:43 GeJ Good morning everyone
23:43 Coke_away does PCT give an easy way to track line numbes of source?
23:44 Infinoid hi GeJ
23:44 GeJ heya Infinoid
23:44 purl i guess Infinoid is Mark Glines <mailto:mark@glines.org>
23:44 Coke (without that, the annotation stuff isn't as useful. =-)
23:44 GeJ purl: I knew that, but thanks
23:44 purl de nada GeJ
23:44 jonathan Coke: I believe after the Cursor refactor that is forthcoming shortly, PGE should help with that.
23:44 Infinoid ohnoes, my true identity is exposed
23:44 Coke (PGE) awesome. then I don't have to do PCT yet. =-)
23:45 GeJ msg Whiteknight The CLA has been snail-mailed.
23:45 purl Message for whiteknight stored.
23:46 japhb Infinoid: yes, in general, that's the motivation for the string format craziness.  As for option #1, there's a part of me that doesn't like dumbing down the library unnecessarily -- what if someone's running on Windows and has UTF-16 string translation files?
23:48 japhb Hmmm, Option 3a: Rewrap with something that checks if the parrot-side string is in same format as the current GLC string type -- if so, just pass through; if not, temporarily GLC string type to match, if possible; otherwise, ask Parrot to do a conversion.
23:48 japhb Wait, does Parrot know how to do inter-encoding conversions?
23:49 japhb "temporarily *set* GLC string type to match"
23:49 Infinoid I would say "yes", but...
23:49 Infinoid /* XXX Apparently unwritten RT #58188 */
23:49 Infinoid Parrot_ex_throw_from_c_args(interp, NULL, EXCEPTION_UNIMPLEMENTED,
23:49 Infinoid "Can't find encoding converters yet.");
23:50 japhb oh bleah.
23:50 Infinoid you could also do this in stages.  passing every string format with full performance for full profit doesn't have to happen on day one :)
23:51 japhb nodnod
23:51 lathos I'm working on it. :)
23:51 japhb lathos: you mean the encoding converters?
23:51 lathos Yes.
23:51 japhb Ah cool, thank you.
23:51 lathos Or, well, strings as a whole.
23:51 japhb even better.
23:51 lathos Gonna take a month or so though.
23:52 japhb I'd be really surprised if it was much quicker than that ....
23:54 Whiteknight joined #parrot
23:54 galf joined #parrot

| Channels | #parrot index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Parrot | source cross referenced