Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2009-04-23

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:09 AndyA joined #parrot
00:33 dalek parrot: r38277 | jkeenan++ | branches/install_tools/con​fig/gen/makefiles/root.in:
00:33 dalek parrot: Add 3 test files for install tools to make manifest_tests.
00:33 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38277/
01:01 wayland_ joined #parrot
01:06 LylePerl joined #parrot
01:09 LylePerl msg Infinoid I've got the steps and my output in this ticket http://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=65006
01:09 purl Message for infinoid stored.
01:11 he left #parrot
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04:01 cotto seenNotFound
04:01 cotto seen NotFound
04:01 purl NotFound was last seen on #parrot 6 hours, 16 minutes and 34 seconds ago, saying: Last time was some time ago ;)
04:01 cotto NotFound, ping
04:07 Andy joined #parrot
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04:14 dalek parrot: r38278 | Infinoid++ | trunk/include/parrot/runcore_api.h:
04:14 dalek parrot: [cage] Fix up a mismatched header guard comment.
04:14 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38278/
04:19 amoc joined #parrot
04:25 cotto chromatic++ #header cleanup
04:27 cotto msg NotFound Can you take a look at https://trac.parrot.org/pa​rrot/ticket/563#comment:7 ?
04:27 purl Message for notfound stored.
04:50 eternaleye joined #parrot
05:13 dalek parrot: r38279 | Infinoid++ | trunk (4 files):
05:13 dalek parrot: [netbsd] Apply patch from he++ in TT #574.
05:13 dalek parrot: * Catch SIGFPE on netbsd-alpha platform and ignore it
05:13 dalek parrot: * Use math.h defines for PARROT_FLOATVAL_INF_POSITIVE and friends
05:13 dalek parrot: This patch may be a starting point for further work in this direction, see doughera++'s comment on the ticket.
05:13 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38279/
05:26 flh joined #parrot
05:29 dalek parrot: r38280 | allison++ | trunk/docs/book/ch02_getting_started.pod:
05:29 dalek parrot: [book] Some example updates, and a chapter title change.
05:29 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38280/
05:33 NotFound cotto: pong
05:37 cotto I msg'd you
05:38 cotto It looks like the commit that kid51 mentioned was part of something that never got finished.
05:40 NotFound Yes, is unfinished. The idea is to check that the values for max and min are compilable, and to have a way to calculate appropriate values as fallback.
05:41 wayland_ Mark Lentczner?
05:41 wayland_ purl?
05:41 purl yes, wayland_?
05:41 wayland_ purl, Mark Lentczner?
05:41 purl wayland_: bugger all, i dunno
05:42 cotto NotFound, ok.  You should probably file a tt and put a comment in there so it doesn't get removed.
05:43 cotto I'll add a comment to tt #563.
05:43 cotto Thanks
05:44 NotFound I'll take a look at it later, now must go to my dayjob.
05:49 gaurav joined #parrot
05:51 * Coke must go to sleep.
05:54 cotto seen particle
05:54 purl particle was last seen on #parrot 7 hours, 24 minutes and 24 seconds ago, saying: yep :D
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06:10 Tene hmm... I got as far as a nasty recursive loop leading t0 a segfault
06:11 nopaste "tene" at 166.70.38.237 pasted "weird recursive segfault" (128 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/16388
06:15 cotto without looking, I wonder if it involves keys
06:15 cotto too bad
06:16 cotto clearly the problem is that you don't have enough ram
06:18 cotto repro?
06:18 Tene working on migrating rakudo to a .HLL
06:18 Tene I can push in a branch...
06:19 * cotto likes playing along at home
06:21 Tene huh, 'git push' is taking a long time.
06:21 Tene oh, there it goes.
06:21 Tene the 'hll' branch
06:22 Tene I'd love help. :)
06:26 cotto should 'git checkout hll' work?
06:26 cotto in rakudo's root after a git pull
06:29 cotto Tene, ^
06:31 Tene cotto: try git fetch origin hll
06:32 Tene if you didn't get the hll branch with a normal fetch
06:32 Tene then git checkout origin/hll
06:32 Tene you should have it already, though
06:32 Tene git branch -r
06:32 Tene should show you
06:35 cotto does that happen during the build?
06:36 Tene Yes.
06:36 Tene just 'make' should fail for you.
06:37 Tene it segfaults when trying to invoke perl6_s1.pbc
06:38 cotto there it is
06:43 allison joined #parrot
06:46 * cotto wishes gdb had an easy way to view the beginning of a backtrace.
06:48 TonyC like C< bt 5 > ? or not what you're after
06:51 cotto except the opposite
06:51 cotto hey!  it works with negative numbers!
06:51 eternaleye joined #parrot
06:51 cotto TonyC++
06:52 cotto apparently processing 145000 stack frames takes a while
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07:52 dalek parrot: r38281 | allison++ | trunk/docs/book/ch03_pir.pod:
07:52 dalek parrot: [book] Beginning to rework the PIR chapter into a quick intro section
07:52 dalek parrot: that walks readers through the syntax, with the details in later
07:52 dalek parrot: sections.
07:52 purl sections are made of MEAT
07:52 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38281/
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08:14 janus 1.1.0 isn't on the ftp in contrary to what the release announcement says
08:15 cotto istr some issues around the ftp upload
08:17 janus as long it's a known issue someone probably will take care of it :)
08:20 cotto yes, although I'm making a mental note to get that straightened before I make the 1.4 release.
08:27 allison I just sent a reminder about it
08:27 allison we know exactly what it is, the admins switched the FTP staging server over to ssh keys instead of passwords
09:09 eiro bye all
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09:38 dalek parrot: r38282 | cotto++ | trunk/src/pmc/resizablebooleanarray.pmc:
09:38 dalek parrot: [PMC] use a properly-sized string when freezing RBA, fixing an OpenBSD segfault
09:38 dalek parrot: patch courtesy of darbelo++
09:38 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38282/
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10:25 bacek good evening
12:38 rg1 joined #parrot
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13:42 * Coke wonders if the admins let anyone know about the switch before it happened.
13:42 Coke (ftp/ssh)
13:44 Coke moritz: ping.
13:44 moritz Coke: pong
13:44 Coke http://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=64276 seems to work now.
13:44 Coke (it's also listed here: http://rakudo.org/status)
13:46 moritz Coke: ok, I'll make sure it's tested, and then closed
13:51 * Coke apparently has a half baked ICU installed via fink, and ponders just killing fink entirely.
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14:24 particle coke: they sure didn't let me know.
14:30 particle fperrad: i assume you use a set of scripts to create those parrot-win32 packages... where are they committed?
14:32 fperrad particle, not exactly, see
14:32 fperrad http://parrotwin32.wiki.sour​ceforge.net/LaRecetteDuChef
14:32 pmichaud fperrad++  # just saw the binaries on sourceforge -- neat!
14:33 particle i wonder how much of that recipe can be generalized enough to help porters on other platforms
14:34 particle seems quite doable with some light abstraction
14:38 fperrad the recipe for language part is not up to date
14:38 fperrad I split it in 2 parts, some languages have targets 'installable', 'win32-inno-installer', but not all
14:40 particle ah, i see.
14:43 Andy whooo, GCC 4.4.0 just released http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.4/changes.html
14:45 Theory joined #parrot
14:48 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
14:48 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
14:51 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
14:51 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
14:51 fperrad particle, currently, I'm not enable to upload the tarball 1.1.0 on ftp-osl.osuosl.org
14:51 fperrad I upload it on SourceForge
14:51 fperrad http://sourceforge.net/project/downlo​ading.php?group_id=211372&amp;filenam​e=parrot-1.1.0.tar.gz&amp;a=10183653
14:51 shorten fperrad's url is at http://xrl.us/bep36g
14:51 fperrad I sent a rsa public key, I waiting for an answer.
14:53 particle fperrad: i see that, thanks for following up.  allison also poked the admins via email.  they're in my time zone, but probably don't get up as early as i do.  i expect an answer in <2 hours, otherwise i'll poke again.
14:54 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
14:54 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
14:55 Coke msg kj : can we delete http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/i​ndex.cgi?pir_syntax_cleanup_proposals
14:55 purl Message for kj stored.
14:55 shorten Coke's url is at http://xrl.us/bep36z
14:57 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
14:57 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
14:58 Coke msg kid51 I think we can delete http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index​.cgi?rfp_parrot_needs_better_smoke_reports - that's all written against smoke, which is dead. If you agree, please delete the page.
14:58 purl Message for kid51 stored.
14:58 shorten Coke's url is at http://xrl.us/bfeof
15:00 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
15:00 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
15:02 Coke jonathan: ping
15:03 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
15:03 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
15:03 Coke msg jonathan http://www.perlfoundation.org/pa​rrot/index.cgi?sub_adverbs_notes is obsolete now, isn't it?
15:03 purl Message for jonathan stored.
15:03 shorten Coke's url is at http://xrl.us/2ors
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15:06 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
15:06 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
15:07 particle coke++ # wiki cleanup/migration
15:08 Coke particle: since you're the only one with a picture, if you could migrate http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/i​ndex.cgi?field_guide_to_parrot_porters or delete it, that'd be helpful.
15:08 shorten Coke's url is at http://xrl.us/fn5dg
15:09 particle who put my photo up there?  sheesh, that's a mugshot for pete's sake.
15:09 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
15:09 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
15:09 * particle nukes that page
15:09 Coke It's your gravatar, no doubt. =-)
15:09 particle yeah, i'll need a better one, it seems
15:10 pmichaud See also   http://github.com/particle  :-)
15:10 particle dang, what happend to my other photo...
15:11 PerlJam particle: you have a non-mugshot photo? :)
15:11 particle yes. one. somewhere....
15:11 jonathan Coke: yes
15:11 PerlJam (the one on github looks like you cropped the plaque with numbers on it  :-)
15:12 wayland_ particle: I had a photo like that.  It took me ages with gimp to get it right :)
15:12 dalek tpfwiki: will@coleda.com | Parrot
15:12 dalek tpfwiki: http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
15:12 wayland_ Hey, don't nuke the page before I see it :)
15:12 particle aha! it's on dopplr.
15:13 * jonathan -> .pm group
15:15 * particle waves to beer-loving perl mongers
15:15 Infinoid the beer-hating ones are out of luck, I guess :)
15:15 particle i've got another gesture for them.
15:15 Infinoid Kinky.
15:16 particle that's how i lol.
15:21 wayland_ well, I don't get the wave, and I reject the other action too :)
15:24 particle anyone give ubuntu 9.04 a go yet?
15:25 pmichaud particle: I'm trying kubuntu 9.04 right now.
15:25 pmichaud (installing it)
15:25 pmichaud so far so good.  I tried the beta version about two weeks ago but had some issues.
15:25 pmichaud I'm hoping the release version will be clean enough that I can upgrade to it.
15:26 pmichaud (and perhaps even get back to 64-bit)
15:26 pmichaud when I tried 9.04-beta a couple of weeks ago, it did unlock some of my new laptop's hardware features, so I'm hopeful the non-beta will work out.
15:28 particle heh, that'd be nice
15:29 pmichaud we'll know soon enough.  The biggest piece I'm missing thus far is that konsole has lost a few features in KDE 4
15:29 pmichaud so I might switch to a different terminal program
15:29 * rg used the 9.04 beta to debug the jit register problem
15:30 * pmichaud downloads ubuntu 9.04 to perhaps give it a try.
15:31 HG` joined #parrot
15:36 * nicomen has been using 9.04 for months
15:36 * wayland_ waits for Eterm to support Unicode :)
15:41 Infinoid you'll be waiting for a long time, judging from how long I've been waiting for the same thing.
15:41 Infinoid (or rather, how long ago I got tired of waiting and switched to something else)
15:42 wayland_ Oh, I'm using gnome-terminal
15:42 wayland_ But I'm still watching so I can switch back :)
15:43 wayland_ I think it basically means that Eterm has to be rewritten to use the E17 libraries, and they have to have TTF support
15:43 wayland_ Then unicode should hopefully "just happen" :)
15:43 Infinoid mlterm has its own quirks, but it's been good enough for me for some time now
15:44 wayland_ I hate gnome-term because it steals the alt-key
15:45 wayland_ but I haven't gotten annoyed enough to find something else yet :)
15:45 pmichaud if konsole doesn't work out for me I'm thinking of trying xfce4-terminal ... it looked reasonable at first attempt
15:45 wayland_ Mainly because I'm more worried about xorg not supporting multiple graphics cards properly any more
15:45 pmichaud I didn't like any of the other terminal programs I saw
15:46 Infinoid they all have quirks
15:46 pmichaud konsole has worked out very well for me over time, but they got rid of the ability to set the window size from the command line
15:47 pmichaud so you're stuck with windows that always open to whatever size the last one you closed was
15:47 wayland_ What, of its own window, or one you're spawning?
15:47 pmichaud (same for window geometry)
15:47 pmichaud for one I'm spawning
15:47 wayland_ yuk
15:48 pmichaud apparently the person in charge of konsole thinks that forcing the window to the size of the last close is a "feature"
15:48 Infinoid wayland_: edit -> keyboard shortcuts -> disable all menu access keys
15:48 Infinoid that should free up your alt key.
15:48 PerlJam I like being able to switch tabs with Alt-#
15:48 Infinoid apparently the person in charge of konsole has never heard of people like me, who typically have 30+ terminal windows open, of all different sizes
15:49 Infinoid I like having alt unhindered so I can switch windows in irssi with it.
15:49 pmichaud yes... on the kde bugs list, his reaction has been "why would you ever want to set geometry from the command line?"
15:50 PerlJam Infinoid: re konsole ... which is odd because I would expect people like you to be the most common
15:50 wayland_ Infinoid: Many thanks.  I've looked in preferences, but stupidly ignored the other because this wasn't a shortcut in my mind :)
15:50 Infinoid wayland_: I had to google for it... but it annoyed the heck out of me too
15:50 pmichaud anyway, I'm off to lunch. bbl
15:50 wayland_ o/
15:51 PerlJam Infinoid: I just don't use tabbed windows when I'm running irssi
15:51 wayland_ I like alt because alt+b = backward-word in bash (and alt+f is forward word)
15:51 PerlJam (and I get rid of the menu)
15:51 rg infinoid: it's still sending esc-<key> instead of high-bit characters like xterm :(
15:51 PerlJam wayland_: I just use vi keybindings :)
15:52 rg you wouldn't know by chance how to change that aswell? ;)
15:52 Infinoid no, I don't know.  esc-<key> is what I want it to send, the xterm stuff causes other problems for me
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15:53 darbelo xterm can do both, actually "<ctrl>+click and select "Meta sends escape".
15:53 wayland_ I've never managed to get away from nano, so I'll stick with the Emacs keybindings for bash :)
15:54 Infinoid So many standards to choose from :)
15:55 darbelo I've found xterm to be "an improvement on most of it's succesors"
15:56 rg darbelo: i've dropped xterm because it doesn't have tabs or multiple windows.
15:57 wayland_ rg: by that, do you mean multiple windows in the one process?
15:57 darbelo I use multple xterms :)
15:57 rg yes, in one process of course.
15:57 * Infinoid is used to spawning multiple terminal processes too
15:57 Infinoid tabs look nice for organization... but unfortunately my common usage is too random-access for those things
16:00 darbelo Also, you can't look at two tabs at the same time.
16:01 * Infinoid usually just has 4 terminal windows per virtual desktop
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16:03 wayland_ I wonder what a RTL terminal would be like :)
16:05 Infinoid that would be beautiful, but probably murder to set up
16:07 wayland_ Not that I can read more than a few words of any RTL language anyway... :)
16:07 Infinoid hmm, my patch stack is empty.  Time to find something new to break.
16:11 wayland_ I've got one per virtual desktop, but my penance is 800x600 until I or someone fix the xorg multi-video card problem
16:12 wayland_ Infinoid: Does that mean you want people to send you more patches?
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16:15 Infinoid by all means, more patches never hurt :)
16:18 wayland_ Well, except it's not ready yet :)
16:19 wayland_ It tries to make an RPM of Parrot that Rakudo will happily build on top of
16:19 wayland_ But it requires that the spec file run "make install-dev" instead of "make install"
16:19 wayland_ I suspect that that's going to make people unhappy, even though Rakudo won't go without it :)
16:19 whoppix joined #parrot
16:20 wayland_ And so I'd like to at least wait until Rakudo builds on top of it before trying to get people to accept it :)
16:20 moritz wayland_: on most linux distributions you want to biuld a separate -dev package
16:21 Infinoid I'm not sure what the current thinking on that is... perhaps the "install" target is for running previously built HLLs and apps, and the "install-dev" target is for building HLLs and apps against it
16:21 Infinoid that being the case, can you build a parrot-dev with the extra bits?
16:21 wayland_ moritz: Oh, it does that too
16:21 moritz so just require the parrot-dev package for rakudo?
16:21 Infinoid or parrot-devel, I guess, since this is rpm
16:21 flh joined #parrot
16:21 moritz ah right
16:21 * moritz is too much into Debian
16:21 wayland_ (yes, devel instead of dev, but I know what you mean :) )
16:22 wayland_ I was under the impression that install-dev was only for if you were developing parrot, but maybe I'm wrong
16:22 moritz no, also if you are developing languages
16:22 purl okay, moritz.
16:23 wayland_ no?
16:23 Infinoid hmm, this looks relevant
16:23 Infinoid Building a language depends on a series of Parrot build tools,
16:23 Infinoid installed in /usr/lib/parrot/<version/tools. These tools will generally
16:23 Infinoid not be included in the default "parrot" package on most systems, but
16:23 Infinoid will require a "parrot-dev" package to be installed before they can be
16:23 moritz if you want to develop parrot, you use svn anway ;-)
16:23 Infinoid built.
16:23 Infinoid -- pdd30_install draft
16:23 wayland_ (sorry, trying to get a response out of purl)
16:23 moritz ah ;-)
16:23 moritz purl: no, also if you?
16:23 purl bugger all, i dunno, moritz
16:23 wayland_ Ok, I'll send in my patch then
16:26 GabrielVieira left #parrot
16:26 wayland_ Nah, can't find it at the moment.  There's one other patch that I'm waiting on (kid51 has requested comments on it), and then I'll be able to get back to looking at this properly
16:32 dalek parrot: r38283 | Infinoid++ | trunk/docs/pdds/draft/pdd30_install.pod:
16:32 dalek parrot: [pdds] Minor clarification to PDD30 draft.  I think it means *languages* will require the parrot-dev package, but right now it reads like the parrot-dev tools themselves require parrot-dev to be built.
16:32 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38283/
16:45 bsdz joined #parrot
16:48 bsdz msg pmichaud i've a trac with a patch for pct to add complex number support at https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/466 . when i first filed it, it was a bug but does have a patch now. can you have a look?
16:48 purl Message for pmichaud stored.
16:49 jhorwitz joined #parrot
16:59 Infinoid Hmm.  My /usr/lib/libpcre.so is a linker script that aliases to /lib64/libpcre.so.0.  For whatever reason, Parrot's pcre test can't open it, and the test fails.
17:08 particle that shouldn't stop you from debugging it :)
17:09 particle is the .c file around, and .cco?
17:09 particle ...for that configure test.
17:10 Infinoid it's a testsuite test, t/library/pcre.t, not a configure test
17:10 Infinoid to debug it, I need to figure out where we're calling dlopen() or whatever.  Working on that part.
17:11 contingencyplan joined #parrot
17:13 particle oh
17:13 wayland_ I had a patch that shows you the path that it searched when trying to load a library
17:13 wayland_ But it hasn't been committed yet
17:13 wayland_ It's in Trac, and it works for me
17:13 wayland_ Do you need it?
17:15 Infinoid nah, I know what it tried to open, from the strace output
17:15 Infinoid My issue is that dlopen() doesn't seem to be able to handle GNU ld scripts
17:15 Infinoid it just opens it, says "hey, this isn't elf" and barfs
17:16 wayland_ Racist!  It needs to accept Dwarves too! :)
17:16 Coke moritz: ping
17:16 moritz Coke: pong
17:17 moritz Coke: I've updated the rakudo status page
17:17 Coke http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=58646 looks closable.
17:17 Coke (presuming the patch was complete. =-)
17:18 Coke hurm. only about half a dozen more remaining.
17:21 Coke 61744 seems old.
17:21 jhorwitz Infinoid: yeah, unfortunately linker scripts are only used by the linker.  dlopen is expected to know what it's opening.  we may need to address that when building NCI extensions.  :-P
17:26 Infinoid an NCI extension is exactly what this is
17:27 Infinoid I've created TT #578 for that issue.  Would love some suggestions, if anyone has some.
17:29 Infinoid I can think of a couple of possibilities, neither are very appetising
17:29 Infinoid We could try to parse the linker script ourselves, which sounds like a neverending bug spigot.  Or try libpcre.so.0 before libpcre.so and try /lib before /usr/lib on linux, which will require special-casing for all the other extensions, too, and will need updating again for the next time the distro boys play ugly games with script locations.
17:31 jhorwitz we will probably need to use the linker itself to do our dirty work
17:31 Infinoid hmm.  You mean, like, build/link a stub .so file that dynlinks to the real library, and then dlopen() that?
17:32 Infinoid I suppose it would fix the problem, but I wish there was a simpler way
17:32 ruoso joined #parrot
17:34 jhorwitz i'm thinking more along the lines of using the linker to find the path ahead of time and somehow inserting that into the dlopen....missing some details of course...  :)
17:34 Infinoid that would work.
17:34 jhorwitz something that would happen during a "make" phase
17:35 * Infinoid wonders if there's some parse_ld_scripts() function in -ldl
17:35 Infinoid of course, resolving it at make time doesn't help packaged parrots
17:35 jhorwitz very true
17:39 Infinoid hmm.  if there's any platform specific tools for manipulating ld scripts, they're probably in libbfd
17:40 Infinoid what a gloriously nasty bit of code that library is
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18:15 dalek parrot: r38284 | rblasch++ | trunk/config/auto/format.pm:
18:15 dalek parrot: [config] Fixed transposed "long long int" ivmin/ivmax.
18:15 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38284/
18:16 Tene jhorwitz: if I'm having mod_parrot issues tonight, think you'll be available for me to harass?
18:17 jhorwitz Tene: i should be around tonight after 8
18:17 Tene jhorwitz: thanks. :)
18:17 jhorwitz (EDT)
18:17 jhorwitz btw, i fixed some issues yesterday, bringing it up to speed w/ parrot trunk.
18:17 Tene ah, so I might not have problems.  nice.
18:29 ilia joined #parrot
18:36 contingencyplan joined #parrot
18:37 * Coke ponders a talk.
18:38 * Coke doubts it.
18:39 jan joined #parrot
18:40 * Coke finds http://www.tutorialspoint.com/parrot/
18:40 Coke ... the f?
18:41 PerlJam Was the talk "crazy parrot stuff I found on the internet"?
18:42 Tene Parrot - PERL Virtual Machine
18:44 Infinoid and they use old snapshots from perl.org.  and they explain things in pasm, not pir, and never actually get around to anything perlish
18:55 NotFound Looks like mk_language_shell.pl needs both a build tree and an installed parrot to work :?
18:56 NotFound Can't open perl script "/usr/local/lib/parrot/1.1.0-de​vel/tools/dev/gen_makefile.pl"
18:57 wayland_ Did you do "make install", or "make install-dev"? :)
18:58 NotFound None of then, that is the point
18:58 wayland_ Oh, ok
18:58 * wayland_ keeps wearing his p6 shoes, and being glad that someone gets Parrot :)
19:00 NotFound And on ecmascript build out of a parrot tree with an installed parrot make test fails because it does not find modules. So it looks like we don't have a clear plan about paths
19:03 wayland_ NotFound: That's probably true.  I've been working on building an RPM of Parrot that Rakudo can happily live on, and had to fiddle with the paths
19:03 wayland_ Quite a bit
19:04 Coke ecmascript might be broken WRT pathing.
19:04 Coke (I know many languages were patched for that pre-1.0)
19:05 NotFound I was trying to build a new language to check what it does, but given that it does not work...
19:09 NotFound my $build_tool = $config{libdir} . $config{versiondir} . '/tools/dev/gen_makefile.pl';
19:09 NotFound No wonder it does not work without an installed parrot
19:11 NotFound $ ../../parrot_config libdir
19:11 NotFound /usr/local/lib
19:12 darbelo cotto, ping
19:29 megazooch joined #parrot
19:34 barney joined #parrot
19:37 megazooch joined #parrot
19:42 gryphon joined #parrot
19:58 rblasch1 joined #parrot
20:07 fperrad particle, tarball uploaded
20:07 particle \o/
20:08 Infinoid fperrad: I've updated the URL redirects for release/current and release/developer
20:08 Infinoid fperrad++
20:09 fperrad 2 days late
20:09 Infinoid not your fault :)
20:09 particle not our fault, though.  could you send an email off?
20:09 rblasch joined #parrot
20:09 * Infinoid is looking at his post to parrot-dev, Subject: Parrot 1.1.0 "Half-moon Conure" Released!
20:10 Coke particle: I had someone rant to me that http downloads would be nice.
20:11 Infinoid What do they think this is, the 21st century? :)
20:11 megazooch joined #parrot
20:14 fperrad Github avoids this kind of problem (see Rakudo)
20:16 particle we can get http downloads. i'll enter a support ticket.
20:17 Infinoid nice, automatic snapshots
20:20 megazooch joined #parrot
20:23 Coke IWBNI if we had a trac plugin that did that, yes.
20:24 Coke but our tarballs aren't quite a snapshot of the repo.
20:25 Infinoid how about nightly snapshots (fsvo "night") which are only posted if they receive smolder's blessing?
20:25 particle how's the weather there in the future?
20:26 Infinoid it's gonna snow again.
20:30 wayland_ LOL (but not very loud :) )
20:38 allison_afk Coke: actually, we already have http downloads via http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/parrot/
20:39 allison ftp.parrot.org is just an alias
20:39 allison they don't have the http://ftp.parrot.org alias set up, but wouldn't be difficult
20:39 Coke allison: the http loads redirect to an ftp url.
20:40 Coke (and apparently we don't link to the actual http downloads from the downloads page.)
20:40 cotto darbelo, pong
20:40 allison Coke: for me it stays http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/parrot/rele​ases/devel/1.1.0/parrot-1.1.0.tar.gz all the way down
20:40 shorten allison's url is at http://xrl.us/bep53b
20:40 Coke If it's just a matter of changing the downloads page, awesome.
20:41 Infinoid I think you can just change the url redirects
20:41 Coke hurm.
20:41 allison Coke: oh, you mean our redirects on www.parrot.org?
20:41 allison our redirects do go to the ftp page
20:42 Coke http://www.parrot.org/release/supported seems to go .... right.
20:42 allison if people prefer the http link we can put that in instead
20:42 particle allison, i just mailed support about it
20:43 Coke both is fine, as long as they're labeled.
20:43 bsdz joined #parrot
20:48 darbelo cotto: got my last mail?
20:48 cotto darbelo, yup
20:48 cotto You'll have a shiny new branch in the very near future.
20:48 * particle logs into melange while darbelo and cotto are nearby
20:49 fperrad left #parrot
20:49 cotto Also, I haven't seen any packaged binary libraries of decnumber, but you're right that we should use them if they exist.
20:50 particle cotto: i thought there might be a way to set up an ml in melange for gsoc projects, but i don't see one
20:51 particle i'll talk to dukeleto about getting that done
20:51 cotto Thanks.
20:51 Coke particle: is the plan for gsoc access to give them access and have them work in a branch?
20:51 darbelo cotto: That's kind of the problem, the 'release' they ship is a .zip with the .h and .c files.
20:52 particle coke: yes
20:52 cotto darbelo, if you can find some distro that packages a library, then we should do library detection and fall back on the included code.  Otherwise, we can just use the included code.
20:53 darbelo If we include the code, why bother with the installed one?
20:54 particle first thing i'd like to see is the decnumber tests imported to parrot, and a harness written to run them against current parrot
20:54 particle *to parrot repo
20:56 Coke particle: I would tend to prefer the approach partcl and rakudo take with spectests.
20:56 Coke but whatever's easiest wins for now.
20:56 particle but they're not stored in a repo anywhere
20:56 cotto darbelo, to use what a user has installed in case they know something we don't.
20:57 particle *public repo
20:57 cotto I suspect the whole question is moot and that you won't find any distros that package decnumber separately.
20:57 particle we certainly can ask ibm, though.
21:00 cotto particle, there's no obstacle to including the files in Parrot as far as Parrot's licensing, right? (decnumber is ICU-licensed)
21:02 particle i believe that is correct.
21:02 particle allison's more of an expert than am i, but that's what my previous research determined.
21:03 cotto darbelo, you have your branch
21:03 particle has darbelo submitted a cla?
21:03 darbelo Not yet. I'll scan it today.
21:03 particle fab.
21:04 dalek parrot: r38285 | cotto++ | branches/gsoc09_decnumber:
21:04 dalek parrot: creating a branch for darbelo++ to work on decnumber-based PMCs for his GSoC 2009 project
21:04 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38285/
21:04 particle http://ftp.parrot.org/releases/​devel/1.1.0/parrot-1.1.0.tar.gz
21:04 particle looks like all we need to do is change the links on the website
21:10 allison cotto: we can't include ICU licensed files in Parrot, that's why we don't ship Parrot with ICU itself included
21:10 particle crap, then i was wrong.
21:10 cotto ditto
21:11 particle so, we must package independently?
21:11 particle ...or rely on existing packages?
21:11 cotto ...which I haven't been able to find so far.
21:11 Infinoid if we make it obvious enough in the documentation, the distro guys should pick it up
21:12 cotto Unfortunately, decnumber doesn't even come with a makefile.  It's just a bunch of .c and .h files with some examples.
21:12 allison either rely on existing packages, or package separately, or provide instructions on downloading and unpacking the source into the parrot tree at a specified location where the Parrot compilation process knows to look for it
21:13 allison but, we have to have a sane fall-back strategy (parrot has to work fine without it, though fine to disable some features)
21:13 darbelo I'm liking the last option. Less work :)
21:14 darbelo I was going to follow the current Big* PMCs behaviour for that:
21:14 allison darbelo: well, existing packages are the least work, and generally preferred, but sounds like not possible in this case
21:19 particle allison: know any open-source friendly folks at ibm willing to package that up?
21:20 flh joined #parrot
21:20 allison well, to do us any good, they'd have to package it for a dozen different operating systems and architectures. Seems unlikely.
21:21 allison the "unpack this into X directory" option seems like the best we've got ATM
21:22 Whiteknight joined #parrot
21:22 bsdz just listening in. if it's icu there are a load of binaries at icu-project.org http://icu-project.org/download/4.0.html#ICU4C
21:22 moritz Infinoid: it seems that dalek stopped to report in #perl6
21:22 cotto or make download_and_unpack_decnumber_to_directory_x ?
21:23 darbelo I think I could trhow together a OpenBSD port for it, and maybe a .deb package, if I put some effort into it. But that leaves out a whole lotta platforms.
21:23 Coke do we have to compile it ourselves?
21:23 cotto bsdz, decnumber is ICU-licensed, but isn't part of ICU.
21:23 Coke if so, then it seems reasonable to put the .zip file somewhere and just download it as part of the build.
21:23 cotto Coke, yes and yes
21:24 Infinoid moritz: when?
21:24 bsdz cotto@ ah okay. decnumber is a math library. wonder if there's an alternative at netlib
21:24 Coke (on parrot.org, or perhaps in a top level svn dir, e.g. "resources/", (next to branches/ etc.)
21:24 moritz Infinoid: my /lastlog dalek doesn't show any occurence...
21:25 moritz it did report something yesterday, though
21:25 allison Coke: that requires a network connection for the build, which we can't do
21:25 Infinoid looks like the last rakudo updates from dalek in here was about 30 hours ago
21:25 pmichaud there have been lots of rakudo updates since then.  :-)
21:26 Infinoid when in doubt, SIGTERM.
21:26 dalek joined #parrot
21:27 Infinoid now, commit something :)
21:27 particle SIGDOUBT.
21:27 Infinoid the atom feed looks fine
21:27 particle mmm. hungry.
21:30 cotto allison, what would you recommend for getting decnumber into parrot?  Could there be a make or configure target/option, or does the download have to be manual?
21:31 cotto I really want to avoid requiring a manual download.
21:31 allison cotto: I don't see any way around it
21:32 allison cotto: it's an optional download
21:32 allison so not too painful
21:33 cotto allison, as in optional manual download or optional make target?
21:33 allison cotto: both
21:34 darbelo "Until your distro starts packaging it uncompress decnumber into directory X if you want big numbers"
21:34 allison what would be really ideal is to make the whole thing a separate parrot extension
21:34 allison darbelo: yes, though I don't know that any distros will package it. It's not very general purpose
21:35 allison darbelo: it's also been around a *long* time, so you'd expect them to package it by now if they were going to
21:35 ingy hi allison
21:36 allison hi ingy
21:36 ingy ltns
21:36 cognominal joined #parrot
21:36 Whiteknight that's what we do with other libraries, so it seems reasonable to do it for decnumber too
21:36 allison Whiteknight: but so far, we always keep them in the Parrot repository.
21:37 darbelo allison: They never really had anything that depended on it, so no pressure to package.
21:37 allison like postgres
21:37 Whiteknight do we keep ICU in the repo?
21:37 allison Whiteknight: no, but it is packaged by most distros
21:37 purl okay, allison.
21:38 bsdz i'm confused, why can't you distribute a package with an icu license?
21:38 allison ingy: indeed, where are you?
21:38 allison bsdz: we can't include it in Parrot
21:38 allison bsdz: that is, we can't distribute it under the Artistic License 2.0
21:39 ingy allison: chamonix france w/ nothingmuch. been here since feb
21:39 bsdz allison: even if we follow what they say and provide copyright info?
21:39 allison bsdz: we can tell people to download it
21:39 ingy allison: you be at yapc?
21:39 Whiteknight darbelo and cotto: do either of you know where the best place to get decnumber for Ubuntu is?
21:39 allison bsdz: but then part of parrot is under a completely different license, and we're holding the users to two licenses
21:40 Whiteknight yeah, allison is right about that. Can't mix licenses. I've run into that problem in the past with other projects and it never turns out well
21:40 bsdz allison: ah okay. it's to maintain a single license. would this also cause problems with icu and libjit (lgpl)
21:40 cotto Whiteknight, the issue is that most distros (including Ubuntu) don't package it.  You'll need to download the zip file from http://speleotrove.com/decimal/ .
21:40 darbelo Whiteknight: http://speleotrove.com/decimal/#decNumber is 'where to get decNumber' there is no 'for Ubuntu' to my knowledge.
21:40 allison bsdz: yes, icu and libjit have the same problem
21:41 allison bsdz: even LLVM, for that matter
21:41 allison bsdz: we can have people download and install the packages as prerequisites, but can't include them in Parrot
21:42 bsdz allison: got you. thanks. btw how does that work with fperrads win32 distro? we okay there?
21:42 Whiteknight cotto and darbelo: Thanks! I guess I need to have that downloaded if I am going to backup mentor this projects
21:42 donaldh joined #parrot
21:42 Whiteknight bsdz: It should work with the win32 distro. You can get around mixing licenses by creating an aggregate and clearly marking which parts have which license
21:43 bsdz Whiteknight: cool. thanks :)
21:43 rob joined #parrot
21:44 Whiteknight The problem is that we say the Parrot repo is under the Artistic 2.0 license, so we can't put things under other licenses into it
21:44 Whiteknight but we can create an aggregate distribution that contains clearly distinct things
21:44 Infinoid (and the parrot tarballs)
21:44 bsdz ah of course. it's tied to the repo
21:44 cotto Whiteknight, I image that an early part of the project will involve adding a make target that downloads decnumber so that it's easier for other people to play with.
21:45 Whiteknight cotto: I wonder how hard it would be to try to get some distros to start packaging it?
21:45 particle allison: non-parrot.org packagers can include them freely, though
21:46 Whiteknight particle: even parrot.org packagers should be able to do it, so long as we kept it out of the repo and were clear about the individual licenses used
21:46 Whiteknight probably more complication then we would like, but possible
21:46 allison cotto: only if it's optional, we can't depend on having a network connection
21:46 allison cotto: and for that matter, it has to be possible to build even with decnumber without a network connection
21:47 allison particle: ideally, they would be packaged separately
21:48 particle yeah, well, that just sucks.
21:48 allison Whiteknight: an aggregate distribution is just that, an aggregate.
21:48 Whiteknight allison: yes, I'm simplifying
21:49 allison Whiteknight: most open source licenses (particularly GPL, which is the most restrictive), have some language about "aggregation"
21:49 cotto allison, my thinking is that make or configure would look in a certain place for the decNumber-icu-361.zip (or whatever) and use it if it's there.  There could also be a make target that downloads it to where make expects it to be to make life easier for users.
21:49 allison it basically comes down to a question of whether something is a "derived work"
21:50 Whiteknight if we include libdecnumber in a package and don't modify it's internals, we're using it as a simple aggregate and not as a derivative
21:50 Whiteknight it's the same way that e.g. Wikipedia is GFDL but can include CC-BY-SA images without conflict
21:50 allison I'm not sure how distributions like Debian feel about multiple licenses in a single package
21:50 allison in general they want you to be *very* clear about it
21:51 gravity It depends on the package
21:51 moritz and it depends on linking
21:51 bacek good morning people of past
21:51 gravity Yes, that's basically it. It needs to be clearly worked out.
21:51 Whiteknight yeah, that's a different question entirely. I'm not saying we should pursue maintaining our own complicated packages, but it is *possible* in the most general sense
21:51 moritz static linking between different licenses can cause much trouble
21:51 allison so, if we compiled decnumber into Parrot for the Parrot package, we'd have to explicitly say "X directory is under the ICU license"
21:52 allison which is effectively just as bad as including it in the Parrot tarball
21:52 Infinoid bacek: good afternoon, future person
21:52 bacek Infinoid: :)
21:52 particle i'm not from past, i'm from pir.
21:52 bobke joined #parrot
21:52 cotto allison, what about compiling decnumber to a shared library?
21:52 * Infinoid is from post
21:52 allison that's why I was suggesting making the whole Parrot library a separate package, instead of including it in the Parrot tarball or packages
21:53 bsdz strawman: maintain a separate googlecode site for each license and compiled packages as prereqs for parrot
21:53 allison we could even license that extension under ICU, so there's no difference
21:53 particle yes, we could even package icu and decnumber together
21:53 allison particle: icu is already packaged, so no need
21:54 * bacek from parse. Trying to parse PMC with PCT..
21:54 allison bsdz: doesn't gain us much, since they're already available for download
21:54 allison cotto: I mean make the whole SOC project a separate package
21:55 allison cotto: A dynamic PMC
21:55 nopaste joined #parrot
21:55 particle allison: soc as separate package seems cleanest to me
21:55 allison cotto: install runs separately, so no licensing difficulty
21:55 particle keep license icu instead of artistic2
21:55 allison cotto: it can have its own package
21:55 bsdz allison: yes, true - guess was thinking more about compiled versions. but tbh i like it when my build script just downloads the right package or uses one locally. much like CPAN shell does
21:56 allison cotto: and hey, we'd be providing easy access to the decnumber library, which apparently no one else has done
21:56 allison CPAN is a packaging system
21:58 allison cotto: Oh, and if the dynamic PMC is ICU licensed, then decnumber can just be checked into its repository
22:02 donaldh left #parrot
22:04 cotto Hmmm.  I was hoping that it could be included with Parrot somehow, but distributing it as a dynpmc would solve a number of problems.
22:06 darbelo It also has to be developed in a separate repo, right?
22:06 cotto but it'd also mean that distributors would be less likely to build packages for it
22:06 allison darbello: yes
22:06 allison cotto: well, I'll do the debian and ubuntu packages
22:07 particle it can be developed in a parrot branch, but never merged to trunk
22:07 allison we need to start packaging separate modules anyway
22:07 moritz particle: then I don't see the use for a branch
22:07 particle but probably better to start in a separate repo from the beginning
22:07 particle moritz: me neither
22:07 allison particle: aye, separate from the start is better
22:08 cotto yes, so it looks like I jumped the gun in creating a branch
22:08 particle that's okay, branches are cheap
22:08 allison particle: the temptation is to make it depend too closely on the parrot build directory (as we learned from languages)
22:08 particle yes indeed.
22:09 particle let's get a permissive repo set up somewhere, so folks can help with the packaging effort darbelo requires but didn't know he'd have to have
22:09 wayland_ Do you want me to send in my patches for RPM specfiling?
22:10 allison wayland: I thought you already did?
22:10 particle patches++
22:10 wayland_ Oh, wait, or are we doing libparrot as a separate thing?
22:10 wayland_ The Mandriva specfile does that already, I think
22:11 wayland_ No, I'll have to leave the specfile patch until I'm more awake, I think
22:11 wayland_ Anyway, I'm not sure it's something you need for the current project
22:12 allison wayland: it will need a specfile (one for just that library)
22:12 wayland_ What does libdecnumber do for us?
22:12 wayland_ Well, like I said, the Mandriva one is already split up into sections, and has one for libparrot
22:12 darbelo wayland_: decimal arithmetic on big numbers.
22:12 Fayland_logger joined #parrot
22:12 wayland_ ok, thanks
22:13 allison wayland: it's a separate package, not part of the parrot package
22:13 bsdz is it big numbers and/or no loss of precision?
22:14 cotto bsdz, it's bcd-like with arbitrary precision
22:14 bsdz ah cool.  i like that. sounds like python's decimal package
22:15 cotto as long as you want less than a billion digits
22:15 moritz I don't have that much money anway ;-)
22:16 bsdz no one seems to nowadays..
22:16 darbelo moritz: "a billion digits", he didn't say on which sise of the decimal dot. :)
22:17 darbelo 1.2 * 10^-999999999
22:17 purl 18446744072709551629
22:17 bsdz is that a small paltry billion or a decently sized british billion..
22:18 bsdz hold on that's bit more
22:18 wayland_ Ah, so that was only a milliard, then :)
22:21 cotto darbelo, are you ok with the dynpmc approach or do you want to try to figure something else out?
22:23 Whiteknight i cant even figure out how to get libdecnumber built on my system. Good luck darbelo!
22:27 darbelo I haven't looked at dynpmcs in depth yet, but they sound better that "packaging denumber for a gazzilion platforms", so I'm OK with it.
22:28 cotto darbelo, ok.  I'll kill the branch.  I wonder if the repo for the dynpmcs could be hosted on parrot.org
22:28 cotto particle, ^?
22:29 allison cotto: it's pretty easy to set one up
22:29 allison though, given the nature of the project, would google code make sense?
22:30 * allison settles down in a big empy apartment to take a look at partcl
22:32 dalek parrot: r38286 | cotto++ | branches/gsoc09_decnumber:
22:32 dalek parrot: the decnumber PMCs will be implemented as out-of-tree dynpmcs, so a branch here is unnecessary
22:32 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38286/
22:41 cotto Is the New BSD license compatible with the ICU license?  That looks like the closest that Google Code offers.
22:42 darbelo Do the have 'Other' as an option?
22:43 cotto nope
22:46 darbelo It looks motre like the MIT License to me. Let me check something...
22:48 Infinoid it's a modified MIT license, plus the ncurses advertising clause
22:50 darbelo Then it's MIT, I guess.
22:50 Limbic_Region joined #parrot
22:54 allison either BSD or MIT will do
22:54 allison (they're largely equivalent)
22:54 allison BSD has the advertising clause, which the stock MIT doesn't, so slightly closer
22:55 zostay joined #parrot
22:55 allison (but they're both so bare it's not much difference)
22:59 cotto Do we have an equivalent of mk_language_shell.pl (or create_language.pl) for dynpmcs, or should we just use that tool and strip out the language stuff?
23:01 darbelo src/dynpmc/README.pod claims tools/dev/gen_class.pl is what we want.
23:06 Ademan joined #parrot
23:13 particle i believe that's the new hotness for dynpmcs, yes.
23:14 cotto It looks like it's meant for general PMCs.
23:15 cotto The readme also assumes that the dynpmc will be in-tree
23:16 Infinoid hmm, apart from an extra tag on the pmclass line, I don't see much difference between dynpmc and pmc source files.
23:16 cotto I might have to hack on something to make out-of-tree dynpmcs easier to start, once darbelo and I figure out what's missing.
23:18 cotto Infinoid, not much, other than not having a static id number.  The trick is that they also need their own makefile, tests and possibly Configure.pl.
23:18 Infinoid ah
23:19 cotto actually, they can just use parrot_config
23:19 cotto parrot_config++
23:22 cotto I'd still like parrot to have make uninstall.  allison, would a patch that adds that be ok to apply?
23:23 allison cotto: mk_language_shell.pl will also do the framework for a dynpmc (though it's intended for language dynpmcs, it's a start)
23:24 allison cotto: uninstall is really not a safe thing for a makefile to be doing, packaging tools are good at it, so we'll leave it to them
23:24 cotto allison, my reasoning is that it's nice to make install from svn, but I also want it to be reversible.
23:24 Infinoid if cotto really really wants one, perhaps "uninstall" should print a big fat warning and tell you to really_uninstall if you really want to break your system.
23:25 allison cotto: if you're doing testing and want to make sure you catch all files, just install into a temporary directory, like /home/me/temporaryparrot
23:25 cotto allison, what's potentially unsafe?
23:25 cotto that'd work
23:26 allison deleting files with root access
23:26 allison really bad news, makes sysadmins cringe
23:26 Infinoid I've had a couple of uninstalls run away on me.  It's a bad scene.
23:26 cotto I can buy that
23:26 darbelo tangent: Since I'll be working out of the parrot repo, do you still need the CLA?
23:27 cotto darbelo, it wouldn't hurt, since you may still want to contribute patches to Parrot.
23:27 allison darbelo: if you want to contribute the code to the Parrot foundation, then you can send it in, but not required
23:28 cotto but it won't be necessary for gsoc, since you can submit bugs and patches through other channels
23:28 darbelo ok, then should the date in page 3 be in dd/mm/aaaa or mm/dd/aaaa format?
23:29 allison darballo: I tend to go for the unambiguous 23 Apr 09 format
23:29 allison darbelo: or something like that
23:30 Infinoid iso8601++
23:31 allison darbalo: but it doesn't matter
23:32 wayland_ Is ISO8601 YYYY/MM/DD ?
23:32 cotto YYY/D/MMM
23:32 Infinoid ISO8601 -s YYYY-MM-DD
23:32 Infinoid is, too
23:32 wayland_ ISO8601++ :)
23:33 wayland_ cotto: Stop being evil :)
23:33 Infinoid You could probably just fill in "1240529616"
23:34 cotto it's unambitouos
23:34 wayland_ What, Unix timestamp?
23:34 cotto ly a bad idea
23:34 cotto s/ouo/uou/
23:34 Infinoid yeah, unix timestamps are a great way to piss people off.  What other value they have, I dunno.
23:34 cotto s/bit/big/
23:35 wayland_ They save a few CPU cycles (like we can't afford them :) )
23:35 Infinoid they take a lot more CPU cycles for humans to read
23:35 wayland_ Well, yes.  I meant they save some but should be converted for external use :)
23:36 wayland_ Although with Unix timestamps, conversion may involve repentance :)
23:37 Infinoid On the other hand, they're also timezone-independent
23:38 wayland_ That's ++
23:38 Infinoid Ok, time for me to stop suggesting incredibly bad ideas and get some work done.  Back later :)
23:38 wayland_ breakfast.  AFK! :)
23:45 TonyC joined #parrot
23:54 cotto darbelo, are you starting a project on Google Code?
23:55 darbelo Nope, I thought you were.
23:56 cotto Since it's your project, you should probably start it.  ;)
23:59 darbelo ok. Does parrot-decnumber-dynpmcs sound like a good name for it?

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