Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2009-05-12

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 darbelo I completely missed that function. Thanks!
00:00 Whiteknight PMC *da_new_one = pmc_new(interp, pmc_type(interp, CONST_STRING("DecContext")));
00:01 Whiteknight (spread that out over 2 lines for readability PLZKTHX)
00:18 Whiteknight My only idea is that contexts used to be more complicated, but parts of them got ripped out and now they're needlessly complicated for no reason
00:18 Whiteknight because otherwise I can't understand why they would be as complicated as they are for the task they perform
00:20 rg well if you can simplify code, by all means go ahead.
00:24 Whiteknight don't worry, I'm going to do it as soon as I figure it all out
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02:37 cotto perl wins: http://blog.doloreslabs.com/2009/05/the-pro​gramming-language-with-the-happiest-users/ (although perl6 is notably absent ;)
02:37 cotto assuming that tweets constitute a meaningful sample
02:39 cotto and a bunch of other questionable assumptions
02:40 Theory joined #parrot
02:41 cotto I do wish the implicit assumption that PHP doesn't exist were more valid.
02:56 Infinoid I guess PHP users hate themselves
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03:46 cotto pmichaud, ping
04:04 cotto bacek, ping
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04:15 bacek_ cotto: pong
04:18 cotto How do you eventually view pmcc being used?  Something like:
04:18 cotto pmcc foo/bar/baz.pmc    #creates dump, header and c, or...
04:18 cotto pmcc --file=c foo/bar/baz.pmc   #just create the c file
04:19 bacek_ I prefer single shot.
04:19 cotto me too.  just checking that we're thinking the same thing, since pmc2c does multiple passes
04:20 cotto do you know how to add command-line options to a compiler?
04:20 bacek_ cotto: no...
04:20 cotto ok
04:21 cotto I was looking and thought I'd try to avoid duplicated effort.
04:21 cotto but since it's not duplicated, I'll keep digging
04:22 bacek_ Check "stages" in pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler
04:22 bacek_ s/stages/.sub command_line/
05:12 cotto nope.  stages was the right thing to look at
05:19 cotto bacek_, does pmcc use the post, pir or evalpmc stages?
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06:20 dalek parrot: r38706 | petdance++ | trunk (2 files):
06:20 dalek parrot: removed unused vars, and added more headerizer flags
06:20 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38706/
06:27 bacek_ cotto: not yet.
06:28 bacek_ cotto: but it probably will when we implement L1 language
06:34 dalek parrot: r38707 | petdance++ | trunk/config/gen/platform/generic/itimer.c:
06:34 dalek parrot: return NULL, not 0, as a pointer.
06:34 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38707/
06:35 cotto getting the thing working is tricky enough now, without worrying about L1
06:40 dalek parrot: r38708 | cotto++ | trunk/runtime/parrot/library/Getopt/Obj.pir:
06:40 dalek parrot: [getopt] documentation function name update
06:40 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38708/
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09:19 cotto going to yapc10?
09:19 purl going to yapc10 is probably kid51 or pmichaud or davidfetter or cotto
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09:46 pancake mmh parrot has no manpage?
09:49 cotto care to write one?
09:49 cotto If you're looking for documentation, there's lots in docs/ .
09:50 pancake i just wonder why there is no manpage for parrot
09:50 cotto I imagine that a man page isn't a huge priority because Parrot isn't something we expect end-users to care about directly.
09:50 cotto i.e. they'll be more interested in the HLLs that run on top of Parrot.
09:51 pancake i think that end users will man the program after running parrot -h. so i think that's something people will look for
09:52 pancake yep HLLs are more interesting than manpages, but ok, knowing that there's no manpage i will stop looking for it :P and maybe i will write one
09:52 cotto That'll probably be a common for users to look.  It'd be a good idea to put something there.
09:53 cotto Feel free to write up a man page that describes Parrot's basic purpose and use, and open a TT.
09:54 pancake ok, i dont have so much free time, but i'll bear in mind
09:55 cotto you can also open a tt requesting a man page
09:56 * cotto is looking forward to not having enough time due to having a job
09:56 cotto at some indeterminate point in the future
10:04 pancake heh
10:04 pancake i would prefer having some more free time (R) :)
10:07 cotto trade?
10:07 purl trade is, like, illegal
10:09 pancake uh?
10:10 cotto nm
10:11 cotto time for sleep
10:11 cotto night
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10:37 dalek parrot: r38709 | bacek++ | branches/pmc_pct/compilers/pmcc/src/emitter.pm:
10:37 dalek parrot: Fix creating PMC-specific emitter
10:37 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38709/
10:37 dalek parrot: r38710 | bacek++ | branches/pmc_pct/compilers/pmc​c/src/emitter/pmc/default.pir:
10:37 dalek parrot: Put default's emitter into namespace
10:37 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38710/
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12:03 dalek rakudo: b6c0eaf | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
12:03 dalek rakudo: A couple of minor fixes to get wrappers working a bit better. Wins us +20 tests we never passed before in wrap.t.
12:03 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b​6c0eaf451b3cb8f50f04b1d595dfcd2e3469103
12:03 dalek rakudo: 0bfbc44 | jnthn++ | src/builtins/guts.pir:
12:03 dalek rakudo: Make sure we hand back return values when invoking with a candidate list.
12:03 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​bfbc44ac71b8cb1c8a0f5075cc3c8699438e387
12:09 dalek rakudo: 1df5839 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
12:09 dalek rakudo: Factor sub cloning stuff into a macro so we don't have to spread it everywhere; also added it to array stores, so @a = &foo will now work properly.
12:09 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​df5839a51a2f4f3c6e9ae750fa550e50b487eca
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13:07 cotto pmichaud, ping
13:07 dalek rakudo: 7cc0b68 | jnthn++ | src/parser/grammar.pg:
13:07 dalek rakudo: Parse @foo>>.bar in a pretty STD.pm-ish kinda way.
13:07 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​cc0b688ef413f04bf5d49f42b7a878e47b64d26
13:07 dalek rakudo: 85e5b9c | jnthn++ | t/harness:
13:07 dalek rakudo: Twiddle the test harness patch to perl6 on Win32 so env.t works under the harness. I'm still a little bewildered how we ever managed to run any tests...
13:07 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​5e5b9c425db1d20386aec3fef152f72a4fe66d4
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13:16 pmichaud cotto: pong
13:17 cotto How can I make extra information available to a compiler stage?  In pmcc (the PCT-based PMC compiler), I need to have a list of directories available to the past stage, so the compiler knows where to find the .dump of a parent.
13:17 pmichaud nodes are also hashes.
13:17 purl okay, pmichaud.
13:18 pmichaud can also use contextual variables.
13:19 cotto that'd work
13:19 cotto Also, does Getopt provide a way to specify required args?  f=s and f:s appear to do the same thing.
13:20 cotto thanks
13:20 pmichaud I don't know.  As far as I'm concerned, Getopt is on its way out; it'll be replaced by the module that particle++ is likely building.
13:20 cotto ok
13:20 cotto it's not blocking anything anyway
13:21 cotto It seems like half of Parrot is in the process of being replaced.
13:21 Whiteknight only the bad half
13:21 Whiteknight :)
13:21 pmichaud I fear we already replaced the good half.
13:21 Whiteknight you think?
13:21 purl No, I'm a bot.
13:22 masak purl: you're an annoying bot.
13:22 purl masak: excuse me?
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13:24 Whiteknight pmichaud: What things do you think were good but got replaceD?
13:25 dalek rakudo: 7d6bc0a | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
13:25 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 387 files, 11187 passing, 0 failing
13:25 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​d6bc0a9b2a17291d6a01731ce357ec2e49f3bd8
13:36 dalek parrot: r38711 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/packfile.c:
13:36 dalek parrot: [cage] avoid a string to cstring conversion
13:36 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38711/
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13:58 cotto pmichaud, any objections to this patch:
13:58 nopaste "cotto" at 96.26.202.243 pasted "make filename information available to compilers" (12 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/16524
13:59 nopaste "cotto" at 96.26.202.243 pasted "make filename information available to compilers, v2" (16 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/16525
13:59 pmichaud cotto: yes, because I don't know what it's for.  I'd like to not put a lot of compiler-specific stuff into HLLCompiler.
13:59 dalek parrot: r38712 | coke++ | trunk/t/codingstd/copyright.t:
13:59 dalek parrot: [t] re TODO this test;
13:59 dalek parrot:   even though the todos pass on some perls, it's doing so incorrectly.
13:59 dalek parrot:   Keep it todo'd until the underlying task is resolved.
14:00 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38712/
14:00 dalek parrot: r38713 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/packfile.c:
14:00 dalek parrot: [cage] avoid a string to cstring conversion
14:00 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38713/
14:00 pmichaud what is the 'filename' option here?
14:00 pmichaud oh, you're trying to get $0 into thelist?
14:00 cotto pmichaud, that's the only way I could see for a compiler to find the name of the file it's compiling
14:00 cotto *file(s)
14:01 pmichaud then it's in the wrong place.
14:01 cotto ok.  What's the right place?
14:02 pmichaud for one, a compiler can override 'evalfiles' and get it that way.
14:02 cotto yes, but I'd rather not duplicate the code there unnecessarily
14:03 pmichaud so, grab the filename and then call the parent's evalfiles
14:03 pmichaud no need to duplicate code.
14:03 cotto of course.  Thanks.
14:13 dalek parrot: r38714 | coke++ | trunk (2 files):
14:13 dalek parrot: [t] Make RE's work in both 5.8.8 <-> 5.8.9
14:13 dalek parrot:  Courtesy cxreg++
14:13 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38714/
14:19 dalek parrot: r38715 | coke++ | trunk/t/codingstd/c_function_docs.t:
14:19 dalek parrot: [t] fix test to run in older perls.
14:19 dalek parrot:   cxreg++ (inspired from TT#543)
14:19 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38715/
14:24 Coke ping cotto
14:25 purl I can't find cotto in the DNS.
14:25 Coke fine, cotto: ping. =-)
14:25 Coke cotto: fixed TT#543.
14:28 cotto Coke, pong
14:28 cotto Thanks.  Coke++
14:29 Coke here's the root cause:
14:29 Coke 10:27 <@maukeNSFW> my $re = qr/A$/m; "A\nB" =~ /$re/ or die;
14:30 moritz if you mean the end of string in /m mode, use \z instead of $
14:32 cxreg still fails in 5.8.8
14:33 cxreg no wait, it's the \n not matching $ that's the problem.  \z is entirely wrong
14:33 moritz do you want it to match, or not to match?
14:33 cxreg it fails to match in 5.8.8
14:33 cxreg that's a bug
14:33 purl No, it's a feature.
14:34 cxreg fixed in 5.8.9 and 5.10, apparently
14:46 Coke oh, hey, cxreg. =-)
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15:20 dalek rakudo: ee9d917 | jnthn++ | src/parser/grammar.pg:
15:20 dalek rakudo: Fix parsing of parallel dispatch unicode form.
15:20 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​e9d917829a13aad05bab0b4a453525659abdea7
15:20 dalek rakudo: 65102d2 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
15:20 dalek rakudo: Implement parallel dispatch (>>. and unicode variant). Handles most cases.
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15:20 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​5102d223d7a72ff5c2df066888cf8faa47dfb8e
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15:26 dalek rakudo: f3d2dab | jnthn++ | t/spectest.data:
15:26 dalek rakudo: Add S12-methods/parallel-dispatch.t to spectest.data.
15:26 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​3d2dab6361b748f0dc2c38fff5979c8100a8fe9
15:26 dalek rakudo: b670f01 | jnthn++ | t/spectest.data:
15:26 dalek rakudo: Add missing #icu to various tests that now need it.
15:26 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b​670f015d495f66f88836605c5c94aef051c0d27
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15:57 NotFound Coke: ping
15:58 Theory joined #parrot
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16:02 dalek parrot: r38716 | NotFound++ | trunk/compilers/imcc/pbc.c:
16:02 dalek parrot: [imcc] attempt to fix TT #629
16:02 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38716/
16:22 dalek parrot: r38717 | coke++ | trunk/t/compilers/imcc/syn/regressions.t:
16:22 dalek parrot: [t] add regressions for RT #41788
16:22 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38717/
16:22 Coke NotFound: pong
16:26 NotFound Coke: please take a look at TT #629
16:40 Coke NotFound: it fixes the original issue, yup.
16:40 NotFound Coke: Did you agree on leaving the comment and the ticket opened?
16:40 Coke should probably add that as a regression test.
16:40 Coke NotFound: no opinion.
16:48 dalek parrot: r38718 | NotFound++ | trunk (14 files):
16:48 dalek parrot: [cage] drop include/ from path in .include directives, TT #511
16:48 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38718/
16:52 dalek rakudo: 89539a9 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
16:52 dalek rakudo: Implement parsing of $foo.=bar to work as STD.pm does, rather than falling back to infix:<.=> as we did before. This means that .=foo alone is now a mutating call on $_ and also that >>.= now works.
16:52 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​9539a978b121ce9f6b92ded383b2f783fd47642
16:57 Andy joined #parrot
17:04 particle- where are my directors?
17:05 jonathan In the jacuzi, with the champagne!
17:05 particle- i must have missed the memo...
17:07 Coke NotFound: I added a test for #629
17:09 dalek parrot: r38719 | coke++ | trunk/t/compilers/imcc/syn/regressions.t:
17:09 dalek parrot: [t] add a (passing) test for TT #629
17:09 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38719/
17:09 NotFound Coke: good :)
17:12 particle- http://www.parrot.org/ now has a 'donate' menu item at the top
17:12 particle- ugly, but working.
17:17 NotFound Now we need one 'Receive donations', for developpers only ;)
17:31 pmichaud #ps in 60
17:38 dalek rakudo: 62773e0 | jnthn++ | src/builtins/guts.pir:
17:38 dalek rakudo: Make sure we don't get unwanted flattening going on when forming the result list from a parallel dispatch.
17:38 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​2773e09f2aeea52c744996616e3f1f7fec515d4
17:58 NotFound joined #parrot
17:59 NotFound hi
17:59 purl bonjour, NotFound.
17:59 NotFound Building perl6 froze my laptop
18:03 AndyA joined #parrot
18:08 * Tene considers harassing chromatic for socialization.
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18:17 Util NotFound: If you are not building with a MS compiler on Win32, then try http://sial.org/pbot/36403 to eliminate that freeze.
18:19 NotFound Util: ubuntu i386, but short of ram
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18:22 Util The patch should fix it. It shortens the final pbc_to_exe step from around 2 hours to 5 seconds on low-RAM machines.
18:23 NotFound Util: I know, I just comment my problem to show the importance of aplying that patch ;)
18:23 Util The patch is uncommitted only because I am re-working it for a grevious limitation under MS compilers.
18:23 Util Oh! thanks.
18:24 ilia joined #parrot
18:24 chromatic joined #parrot
18:24 * chromatic will be 10-15 late to #ps
18:25 dalek parrot: r38720 | pmichaud++ | trunk/runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Perl6Grammar.pir:
18:25 dalek parrot: [pge]:  Update Perl6Grammar.pir to handle utf8 input a bit better.
18:25 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38720/
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18:38 * jonathan is disconcerted by the unalphabeticity of #ps
18:39 Coke awwwww. Better chromatic decides, eh friend?
18:44 cotto partcl needs a hug
18:44 Coke ... or a mercy killing.
18:45 particle- `svn rm partcl`
18:45 particle- where's mdiep, anyway?
18:45 purl mdiep is Matt Diephouse <mailto:matt@diephouse.com>
18:46 particle- learn your interrogatives, purl
18:46 purl particle-: sorry...
18:46 allison well, the problem isn't partcl, it's parrot, at the moment
18:46 cotto "It's not you, it's me."
18:46 Theory joined #parrot
18:46 particle- allison: did you get back to bradley kuhn?
18:47 Coke mdiep has a real job and a fiance and is busy. =-)
18:47 allison particle: aye, I sent him the new link, and let him know the donation would be welcome
18:47 particle- a fiance? is she tall?
18:47 particle- wonderful.
18:48 particle- ooh, i need to register a talk for yapc::na.
18:48 particle- keynote, in fact.
18:48 particle- following larry.
18:48 particle- whee!
18:56 Whiteknight great, I missed #ps again
18:56 Whiteknight what I need to do is quit my $real_job so I don't get distracted on tuesdays
18:57 Coke ps is still going on.
18:57 Whiteknight yeah, but I missed the reporting portion of it
18:58 Coke there.
18:58 Whiteknight bah!
19:00 Infinoid Whiteknight: if you quit your $real_job, you won't even know it's tuesday
19:01 Whiteknight right, but I'll be on IRC every day
19:01 Whiteknight #ps will just form around me
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19:10 cxreg Coke: i'm less sure now that the /m bug is previously known
19:10 cxreg nobody ive asked had heard of it (tye, jjore)
19:10 Coke cxreg: whee!
19:12 moritz I know that the scoping of (?m ) changed between 5.8 and 5.10
19:12 moritz but I'm not sure if that's the same issue
19:13 cxreg tye suspected it had something to do with that, so it sounds right
19:13 cxreg he thought that maybe ?m: didn't work prior to 5.8.9
19:14 cxreg as a subexpression, anyway
19:15 Coke moritz: that is the issue we were having, yes.
19:15 Coke qr//m resulted in a (?m), which failed, but using an explicit /m at m/ or s// time worked.
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19:35 pmichaud how do I get tickets to show up on the roadmap report in trac?
19:36 pmichaud (#14)
19:37 particle- associate them with a milestone iirc
19:37 particle- or is it release?
19:37 particle- i'd have to look at trac to verify....
19:37 pmichaud I did associate with a milestone, it didn't work.
19:37 pmichaud Ticket #661
19:40 Coke pmichaud: it's set to milestone 1.2
19:41 ilia joined #parrot
19:41 pmichaud ...it should be set to...?
19:42 Coke no, that's right.
19:43 nopaste "NotFound" at 213.96.228.50 pasted "This is how reading from a piped command must look like?" (5 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/16529
19:43 Coke https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/query?stat​us=assigned&amp;status=new&amp;status=reo​pened&amp;group=status&amp;milestone=1.2 shows it.
19:44 pmichaud why doesn't it appear in report #14, then?
19:45 Coke because that report is for 'milestone' tickets only.
19:45 Coke and yours is a TODO.
19:45 Coke I would argue that yours should stay a todo.
19:45 pmichaud ...because?  (ooc)
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19:48 Coke milestone are the big ticket items that were originally on the roadmap document.
19:48 Coke like "this entire subsystem must be completed"
19:49 particle- how do i get the hex/octal value of a character > 127
19:49 particle- in p5?
19:50 pmichaud I'm not sure that I agree with "originally on the roadmap document" clause
19:50 pmichaud I think that it should just be "this must be completed"
19:50 pmichaud I'm fine with arguing that it doesn't have to be completed for 1.2
19:50 pmichaud but if we get to 1.4 and don't have pipes, we're likely in for some hurt.
19:51 Coke perl -e 'printf "%x\n", 257';
19:51 Coke if it just has to be completed, then the milestone is sufficient.
19:51 PerlJam particle-: my $oct = sprintf("%o", ord($char));  # same for hex but use %x instead of %o
19:52 Coke ticket type and milestone are orthoganal.
19:52 NotFound pmichaud: I'll make them work at leaste in linux in a short time.
19:52 Coke pmichaud: I appreciate your pain. I'm still trying to recover from 1.0
19:53 pmichaud Coke: if milestone is sufficient, when/where do those tickets get reviewed prior to release?
19:53 pmichaud (again, ooc)
19:54 Coke up until this week, in the weekly PS meetings.
19:54 Coke unless we just haven't gotten to that yet.
19:54 pmichaud ...except the ticket that I just filed doesn't show up in the list that is in the weekly PS meeting.
19:54 pmichaud *is reviewed in
19:55 Coke Ok. You need to take it up with allison, then, as she (SFAIK) created the milestone ticket type.
19:55 Coke the report I look at is here:
19:55 Coke https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/roadmap
19:55 Coke sorry.
19:56 allison pmichaud: that's a different report, that's the milestone report, instead of the roadmap report
19:56 pmichaud which one is the different report?
19:57 pmichaud The /14 report is the one I'm asking about.
20:00 allison aye, /14 is only roadmap items
20:01 pmichaud how do things get on the roadmap?  Or, what's the criteria for placing something on the roadmap, such that it isn't forgotten from one #ps to the next?
20:03 Coke my 2c: we shouldn't be relying on the /14 report for "stuff we need to get done for a release." That's why we have the trac milestones in the first place. the roadmap report is for big ticket items. (which makes it more helpful for planning than doing.)
20:03 allison Coke: aye, but should we be reviewing every ticket tagged for a release in every #ps meeting?
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20:04 allison we added the roadmap review to make sure those items didn't get missed in the larger list of todos
20:04 Coke allison: (reviewing) no.
20:04 pmichaud if a ticket is tagged for a release, that's because we expect it to be done by that release, yes?  I'm not saying we need to review them at every #ps, but at some point we do need to be saying "are we getting the tasks done that we expect to be done"?
20:05 Coke given how frequently we just bump-to-next-release, I can tell you, "no, we're not."
20:05 chromatic Yeah, otherwise we won't get them done and we won't improve our scheduling and estimating abilities.
20:06 allison tickets are tagged for a release for various reasons
20:06 allison sometimes it's no more than someone saying "I'd really like this to be a high priority"
20:07 pmichaud there should be some way for us to accept that a ticket is high priority, though.
20:07 Coke (note that there are currently 30 tickets marked with the 1.2 milestone.)
20:07 pmichaud (not simply that someone says "I'd like it to be high priority", but rather that we as the parrot development team agree that "this is high priority")
20:07 Coke pmichaud: there's a priority tag.
20:07 Whiteknight there is a priority field in tickets
20:08 pmichaud Whiteknight: sure, but if that is never reviewed/acted upon, it's not helpful.
20:08 pmichaud the only reason I marked #661 as milestone 1.2 was because allison said "would be nice for 1.2".  But I'd consider it somewhat critical for 1.4.
20:09 Whiteknight pmichaud: you can lead the horse to water, but you cant make them close the ticket
20:09 Whiteknight ...or something like that
20:09 pmichaud if others disagree on the critical-ness, that's fine.  But my larger question is "when we as a group decide that something is really important, how do we indicate that so that we're certain to yoke a person to it?"
20:10 Coke mark it as critical.
20:10 Whiteknight and assign it to an owner
20:10 pmichaud Coke: but when do such tickets get noticed?
20:10 allison pmichaud: the main value of those markings is providing a quick-glance categorization
20:10 allison I always look at the list of milestone tickets before the release
20:10 Coke pmichaud: when the volunteers look at them. or when the person requesting the ticket says 'hey, this is important, is anyone going to work on it.'
20:10 Whiteknight to make sure the ticket gets noticed it needs an owner, and should probably end up on the roadmap if it's a big deal
20:11 allison and, if they're marked as critical, the appear at the top of the list and get more attention
20:11 pmichaud I'm asking "how do things end up on the roadmap"?
20:11 Coke I don't think whether they're on the roadmap or not matters to getting them resolved.
20:11 allison Whiteknight: the roadmap is for things that we specifically planned in advance that needed to happen
20:11 dalek parrot: r38721 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/io/unix.c:
20:11 dalek parrot: [core] fix pipe open in unix, tested only for reading
20:11 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38721/
20:11 pmichaud allison: and the roadmap is immutable?
20:11 allison Coke: aye
20:12 Whiteknight allison: Okay, but there should probably be a mechanism to adjust it over time.
20:12 Coke obviously not immutable, since we just pushed several things out to the next release.
20:12 allison pmichaud: nope, we change it every week, as we review
20:12 Coke s/we/allison/ =-)
20:12 pmichaud I mean as far as "adding new items to the roadmap"
20:12 particle- critical is not the same as urgent.
20:12 allison can both add and remove tasks
20:12 particle- ^^whiteknight
20:12 allison but it is definitely a group review,
20:12 Coke pmichaud: is your primary concern not "what's on the roadmap", but "whether tickets that are important to you/rakudo get worked on?"
20:12 Whiteknight so at #ps we should be able to propose new tasks to add to the roadmap?
20:13 allison while marking a ticket for a milestone is individual, and more random
20:13 NotFound Here is a working pipe. At least the minimal pir code I tested works.
20:13 pmichaud Coke: not necessarily rakudo specific.  I'm curious about when tickets make it onto the roadmap in general.
20:13 allison Whiteknight: yes, but keep in mind that they're not just random tickets, they are critical tasks in the long-term plan
20:13 pmichaud For example, I brought up the issue of concurrency support in today's #ps, specifically because it *doesn't* appear in the roadmap.
20:13 Coke I think roadmap has some special meaning here that we're not agreeing on. =-)
20:14 pmichaud is that because we think it's implemented sufficiently well?
20:14 Whiteknight allison: right,I'm not saying it will happen often, just working out the mechanism
20:14 Coke pmichaud: TT#618, for 3.0 release.
20:14 allison pmichaud: it was in the original roadmap at PDS, but was removed in a later discussion
20:14 particle- if only we had a project manager....
20:14 Coke ah.
20:14 Coke particle-: project manager is useless without resources to /manage/
20:14 purl Hmm.  No matches for that, Coke.
20:14 pmichaud Coke:  TT#618 is "advanced concurrency support"
20:14 Coke pmichaud: i defer to allison.
20:14 allison Coke: ah, aye, there were two concurrency tasks, one immediate, one long-term
20:15 * Whiteknight salivates at the idea of TT #618
20:15 allison the reason I know, is I saved it off to my parrotsketch notes when I removed it from the roadmap
20:15 Whiteknight that is going to be quite the fun ticket to work on
20:15 pmichaud Whiteknight: just because something is slated for 3.0 doesn't mean you have to wait until then :-)
20:15 Whiteknight pmichaud: I've got a lot of things on my near-term todo list to tackle first
20:15 allison ||||concurrency/threading||allison||||||
20:15 allison ||||threads useful in hlls||||||||
20:16 allison those were on the roadmap for sometime around 1.3 IIRC
20:16 Coke IM mind, "roadmap" is 'big picture' items that are useful for someone outside of parrot know when to expect something. It's more marketing. If you're concerned about something getting done for release 1.2, that's doesn't have to be on the "roadmap".
20:16 pmichaud Coke: I'm fine with such a case not being on the roadmap.  I'm not fine with such things not ever being reviewed to make sure that they're not forgotten.
20:16 allison Coke: that's an excellent way of explaining it
20:16 particle- coke: agreed.
20:17 pmichaud if you're saying that such reviews are taking place, then I'm simply not seeing them from where I sit.
20:17 particle- roadmap:product::milestone:release
20:17 allison pmichaud: yes, I agree
20:17 Coke No, I'm not.
20:17 allison pmichaud: I did the 1.1 review last month
20:18 pmichaud allison: that was done when?
20:18 allison would now, a week before the release, be a sensible time for some group review?
20:18 pmichaud (relative to the 1.1 release)
20:18 pmichaud Yes, I think that'd be reasonable.
20:19 allison pmichaud: reviewed each ticket, closed the ones that were completed, rejected ones that were entirely inappropriate, gave feedback to any that needed it, moved some to 1.2, and moved others to no roadmap marking
20:19 allison how about right now?
20:19 * purl puts on her wizard robe and hat
20:19 pmichaud unfortunately, I have to leave in a few minutes.
20:19 particle- sorry purl, this party is humans-only.
20:20 NotFound Can someone tell if the pipe fix for unix is useful? If not, stop crying about lack of working pipes }:)
20:20 allison pmichaud: okay
20:20 pmichaud NotFound: in order to be useful for rakudo, we probably need both unix and windows support.
20:20 allison I will look at every ticket marked for 1.2 this week
20:20 pmichaud NotFound: if getting it working under unix is a useful first step for that, I'd take it.
20:21 allison and, we can talk on the mailing list for any questions that need discussion
20:21 pmichaud that works for me.
20:21 NotFound pmichaud: I don't see how can we make working in general without a first test case checked.
20:21 pmichaud NotFound: I don't even know what the PIR interface for pipes looks like -- I haven't seen it documented.
20:21 pmichaud Perhaps I'm not looking in the right place.
20:22 NotFound pmichaud: yeah, that's te reason why I ask for some confirmation.
20:22 pmichaud NotFound: I'd be glad to write a test case if I knew what the API is supposed to look like.  :-)
20:22 allison the PIR API?
20:22 pmichaud In general, I think a ticket review two weeks prior to each release might be useful.
20:22 allison or C API?
20:22 purl C API is probably the main focus in the docs
20:22 pmichaud allison: whatever I need to write from PIR so that I can run a subprocess and capture its output.
20:22 allison pmichaud: we could add it to the release manager guide
20:23 pmichaud +1 (add to release manager guide)
20:23 nopaste "NotFound" at 213.96.228.50 pasted "This is the test case I worked in" (9 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/16530
20:23 pmichaud I suggest two weeks because that gives us a little time to make progress on tickets before the actual release, instead of simply moving the ticket to the next release.
20:23 allison pmichaud: it won't work now, but you'd open a read-write pipe
20:23 allison pmichaud: open with mode flags 'rwp'
20:24 pmichaud NotFound: that test case looks fine to me.
20:24 pmichaud NotFound: I can work from that.
20:24 NotFound pmichaud: it works now in linux, and probably in other *ix
20:24 Whiteknight I'm heading home now. Later
20:25 pmichaud NotFound: why not call a perl script to test it in a os-independent manner?
20:25 pmichaud NotFound: we know the location of 'perl' from parrot_config
20:25 allison or, invoking parrot?
20:25 pmichaud or, invoke parrot.  :-)
20:25 NotFound pmichaud: good idea. I'll try to make a test based on that, and TODO it for non-linux
20:25 pmichaud NotFound: fair enough, although it should work even for non-linux
20:25 allison a small PIR script that just prints a line to stdout?
20:26 pmichaud even just capturing the output of "parrot -v"
20:26 pmichaud or "parrot --help"
20:26 pmichaud or whatever.
20:26 NotFound pmichaud: hey, I've done it in less than 30 minutes, don't ask for miracles ;)
20:26 allison pmichaud: ah, excellent
20:26 pmichaud NotFound: sorry, we expect miracles here.
20:27 NotFound I don't make them for windows since a long time ;)
20:27 pmichaud Yes, getting windows to work requires extra-miracle-points.
20:28 NotFound Did we know the path to parrot from parrot?
20:28 pmichaud it's in the config
20:28 pmichaud ['parrot']
20:28 NotFound Ah, nice
20:29 pmichaud oh wait, that's not it.
20:29 pmichaud ['build_dir']  and concatenate that with '/parrot' or '\parrot.exe'
20:30 dalek rakudo: 19490ae | pmichaud++ |  (3 files):
20:30 dalek rakudo: Get src/parser/grammar.pg to be utf8 again.  This involves bumping
20:30 dalek rakudo: PARROT_REVISION to take advantage of Perl6Grammar changes.
20:30 pmichaud (the .exe suffix can be obtained from ['exe']
20:30 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​9490ae782bb67db758ef517620dcbdcc2362504
20:31 NotFound I think that just /parrot might work in all supported platforms.
20:31 dalek parrot: r38722 | allison++ | trunk/docs/project/release_manager_guide.pod:
20:31 dalek parrot: [release] Add a note about reviewing the current milestone tickets
20:31 dalek parrot: several weeks ahead of the release.
20:31 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38722/
20:31 Coke parrot_config build_dir slash test_prog
20:32 particle- NotFound: please append ['exe']
20:32 Coke test_prog should include the .exe, no?
20:32 particle- test_prog => 'parrot'
20:32 NotFound If I remember well, CrateProcess takes care of that
20:33 Coke ah. parrot_config build_dir slash test_prog exe
20:33 particle- coke++
20:34 particle- on my system, that translates to C:/dev/rakudo/parrot\parrot.exe
20:34 Coke wonky slashy.
20:34 particle- and yes, windows does permit that
20:34 NotFound So you see that trying to use the nicer slash is a loss of time ;)
20:34 particle- C:\dev\rakudo\parrot>C:/de​v/rakudo/parrot\parrot.exe
20:34 particle- parrot -[acEGhprtvVwy.] [-d [FLAGS]] [-D [FLAGS]][-O [level]] [-o FILE] <file>
20:41 Coke for windows, yes.
20:41 Coke trust me, you won't want to have to back and fix that for VMS. =-)
20:42 Coke (though really I suppose we should pass all of that to a library routine for canonicalization)
20:45 * Coke updates partcl's and paraplegic's front pages to note the lack of workage.
20:46 raiph joined #parrot
20:47 raiph left #parrot
20:48 dalek rakudo: fcf5d97 | pmichaud++ | src/parser/grammar.pg:
20:48 dalek rakudo: Clean up some places where latin1->utf8 conversion did the wrong thing.
20:48 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​cf5d9791d21fe87a9dca20f84dccd226e65fdbf
20:49 Coke pmichaud: can I give you a commit bit on the APL project?
20:49 Coke (not that I expect you to fix anything, just that you wrote more than half of what's in there.)
20:49 pmichaud Coke: sure.
20:49 Coke googlecode id?
20:50 pmichaud I think "pmichaud@pobox.com" works.
20:51 Coke made you an owner in case I get hit by the bus.
20:51 Coke ... at least, I will have done that by the time the page refreshes. :|
20:51 pmichaud Coke++  # thanks
20:53 Coke what, i just made it look like the dead project was half your fault. =-)
20:53 pmichaud fine with me!
20:53 pmichaud I'm good at creating dead projects :-)
20:53 particle- like languages/perl6
20:54 dalek parrot: r38723 | coke++ | trunk/config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
20:54 dalek parrot: Fix some build dependencies.
20:54 dalek parrot: Courtesy doughera++
20:54 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38723/
20:54 dalek parrot: r38724 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/io/unix.c:
20:54 dalek parrot: [cage] delete a debug statement commited by mistake
20:54 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38724/
21:00 nopaste "NotFound" at 213.96.228.50 pasted "Platform independent pipe test" (29 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/16531
21:00 NotFound Something like that?
21:01 Coke NotFound: note that 'parrot' is available as config['test_prog']
21:01 Coke but yes, something like that.
21:01 particle- hence coke++'s earlier comment about "parrot_config build_dir slash test_prog exe"
21:02 NotFound Oh, I don't read that carefully enough
21:02 Coke I mean, who is going to build parrot and call it "not_parrot", but hey, it's there.
21:04 NotFound And what must we expect in the test output? /This is Parrot.*/ ?
21:05 particle- NotFound: yes
21:06 particle- there is a streams test for exactly that
21:21 dalek parrot: r38725 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/op/io.t:
21:21 dalek parrot: [test] add a test for pipe reading, TT #661
21:21 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38725/
21:26 dalek decnum-dynpmcs: r30 | darbelo++ | trunk/ (4 files):
21:26 dalek decnum-dynpmcs: - Add decnumber parameters to Makefile CFLAGS.
21:26 dalek decnum-dynpmcs: - Leverage parrot CFLAGS to fix amd64 build.
21:26 dalek decnum-dynpmcs: review: http://code.google.com/p/decn​um-dynpmcs/source/detail?r=30
21:27 darbelo Now, I can get back to *useful* work.
21:27 Whiteknight joined #parrot
21:27 * darbelo hates working on multiple platforms.
21:29 Whiteknight back in my day we had to work on zero platforms, and we were lucky to do it!
21:31 darbelo I'm too used to embedded work, I guess.
21:31 Whiteknight oh really? you do embedded stuff? do tell
21:32 dalek website: allison++ | Election of Bilbo Baggins for 2009-2010 Board Term
21:32 dalek website: http://www.parrot.org/content/electio​n-bilbo-baggins-2009-2010-board-term
21:33 darbelo I study electronics engineering. Last embedded work i did was on an 8-bit microcontroller.
21:33 Whiteknight I did electrical myself
21:33 NotFound Talking about limited platforms, parrot for Nintendo DS will be a nide thing :)
21:33 NotFound nice
21:34 Whiteknight darbelo: Which controller were you using? I've worked on about a dozen of them myself
21:35 darbelo A MCS-51 derivative. It automated a spark plasma sintering experiment.
21:36 Whiteknight oh, very cool. MCS-51 I've never used
21:36 pmichaud Util: ping
21:36 * Util pongs
21:36 darbelo You might know it as the intel 8051.
21:36 pmichaud Util: how far away might a pbc_to_exe fix be?  Apparently rakudo doesn't build on feather (which I didn't realize)
21:36 pmichaud at least, it doesn't build for some individuals
21:39 darbelo http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8051
21:39 Whiteknight oh, then yes. I had never heard that name for it before
21:39 darbelo Sorry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8051
21:39 dalek rakudo: 3412a2f | pmichaud++ | src/parser/grammar.pg:
21:39 dalek rakudo: Enable parsing and limited processing of � quotes � .
21:39 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​412a2f1bdefa2f11e667f845419863eba9bb9ba
21:40 Util pmichaud: well, I *could* commit the patch from last Tuesday, which would break the build on Win32 with MS compilers. I expect to have a breaks-nothing version in Perl (instead of PIR) in another 30 minutes, but I don't know when I can convert that version to PIR.
21:42 Infinoid darbelo: cool, 8051s are fun.  I've worked with them and AVRs
21:42 Infinoid AVR has a gcc port, so I like those more
21:44 pmichaud Util: I'm okay with moritz++'s suggestion to have separate code paths for gcc versus msvc
21:46 Util pmichaud: are you OK with pbc_to_exe moving from PIR to Perl5, since it is supposed to be a stop-gap anyway?
21:47 pmichaud Util: that's not really my call, but yes, I'd be okay with that too.
21:48 darbelo The atmel 8051 have less stuff on them tha others, but are good when you're on a tight budget.
21:49 darbelo Or, as was my case, when some of the peripherals MUST be phisically separate from the main board.
21:50 NotFound Someone wanting to try to implement Parrot_io_open_pipe_win32? I have some C++ code that can be borrowed from, but I don't have a windows development system and don't have plans to get one.
21:50 Infinoid I love all microcontrollers, actually.  I mean... it's a processor, it runs code, it costs $1.  That's just awesome.
21:50 Infinoid I wouldn't want to do video rendering on one, but there are a lot of tasks its just perfect for
21:51 Infinoid the available compilers do vary a lot in quality tho
21:53 darbelo Heh, the end-users wanted a screen on it. Managing the 128x64 display was something of an adventure.
21:54 Infinoid I've hooked them up to serial display controllers, but haven't tried doing anything graphics-intensive
21:54 chromatic I think moving pbc_to_exe to Perl 5 is a step backwards.
21:54 chromatic We're trying to install less Perl 5 code with Parrot.
21:56 davidfetter MOAR PERL6!
21:57 PerlJam What does pbc_to_exe do exactly?  Could a parrot program do it?
21:57 moritz PerlJam: I think it just generates a .c file
21:58 moritz which contains a dumped .pbc file, and a call to a function
21:58 PerlJam yeah, I that's what I thought too (haven't bothered to actually look though :)
21:59 moritz the problem with the current version is that it stores the dump in an array of unsigned bytes
21:59 moritz which is a *huge* array
21:59 moritz and takes much memory in the compiler
21:59 moritz the better solution is to use a string instead, but msvc doesn't like strings larger than 16k
21:59 moritz (at least constant strings)
22:00 dalek parrot: r38726 | chromatic++ | trunk/docs/book/ch03_pir.pod:
22:00 dalek parrot: [book] Revised the second quarter of chapter 3.
22:00 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38726/
22:01 bacek joined #parrot
22:10 slavorg joined #parrot
22:17 dalek parrot: r38727 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/io/unix.c:
22:17 dalek parrot: [cage] some cleaning of Parrot_io_open_pipe_unix
22:17 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38727/
22:22 Whiteknight joined #parrot
22:25 mj41 "Test results diff" is back on TapTinder, e.g. http://tt.ro.vutbr.cz/report/pr-Parrot/do?trun-8​54=on&amp;trun-855=on&amp;Submit=Do+what+I+mean
22:26 mj41 I also setup client with Visual C++ 2008 Express Edition. See "Buld status page" http://tt.ro.vutbr.cz/buil​dstatus/pr-Parrot/rp-trunk
22:27 * allison moving across town
22:36 kid51 joined #parrot
23:00 Whiteknight moritz: On Windows, the better idea would probably be to include the .pbc as a resource, instead of using an array or a string
23:00 Whiteknight Of course, that would be a lot of platform-specific code to write to make that happen
23:07 pmichaud I'd be fine with leaving Windows as slow-to-compile while speeding up the unix side.  :-)
23:09 Whiteknight The vast majority of Windows users are not likely to be compiling these things themselves
23:09 Whiteknight it needs to be just fast enough for our packagers
23:11 chromatic And people building/rebuilding Rakudo.
23:13 Whiteknight If we attached the .pbc as a binary resource, the compilation on windows would be very speedy indeed
23:14 Whiteknight I'll have to double-check my copy of Petzold to make sure I remember how to do that though
23:20 donaldh joined #parrot
23:35 dalek parrot: r38728 | whiteknight++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
23:35 dalek parrot: [DEPRECATED] add note about get_addr and set_addr opcodes, which will change semantics post-1.4. See TT #218 for details
23:35 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38728/
23:40 gaurav joined #parrot
23:58 dalek parrot: r38729 | whiteknight++ | trunk/src/gc/generational_ms.c:
23:58 dalek parrot: [docs] Add some function-level documentation to src/gc/generational_ms.c. I dont know what everything does, but I took some educated guesses
23:58 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/38729/

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