Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2009-07-20

Parrot | source cross referenced

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Time Nick Message
00:01 pmichaud Good evening, #parrot (from OSCON)
00:07 jhorwitz ~~
00:12 Whiteknight joined #parrot
00:13 Whiteknight kid51++ # All his ticket work!
00:20 patspam joined #parrot
00:20 dalek TT #856 created by jkeenan++: segfault in pbc_merge
00:25 chromatic pong
00:25 dalek parrot: r40162 | whiteknight++ | trunk/src (2 files):
00:25 dalek parrot: [oo] Add some documentation about C3 and MRO as per kid51++'s suggestion for RT #46101.
00:26 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40162/
00:27 jhorwitz chromatic: my 1.4 milestone calls for listing the parrot API functions that will be decorated with PARROT_API.  do we want to just list them now or actually tack on PARROT_API and make the appropriate headerizer changes?
00:28 chromatic Tuesday's near.  cotto makes the call, I think.
00:29 chromatic Updating the PDD should be sensible enough, if all of these functions 1) exist and 2) have PARROT_EXPORT anyway.
00:29 jhorwitz yeah -- i've also made local changes for PARROT_API just to test, but i can break that off into a branch for the next release.
00:45 bacek_at_work good morning #parrot
00:47 dalek TT #857 created by jkeenan++: Parrot_floatval_time() and Parrot_intval_time() do not match up on Win32
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00:52 dukeleto joined #parrot
00:58 Casan joined #parrot
01:02 Casan a look at the parrot roadmap on trac shows that tickets keep getting pushed from milestone to milestone, and most of the 18 missing for 1.4 will likely be pushed to 1.5 which will then have 39 tickets.. I'm just wondering, is there a special issue which pushing dev to a halt at the moment, seems like after 1.0 and the 1.0 hague grant mission, things have slowed down. am I missing something?
01:04 Topic for #parrotis now http://www.parrot.org/ | 279 RTs left | Next release: 2009-07-21
01:07 kid51 Casan:  I disagree with your characterization of Parrot development as having been 'pushed to a halt at the moment'.
01:08 kid51 Yes, some issues do get pushed to a future milestone.  (a) Because some of the plans we made last year were unrealistic.  (b) Because solving some of these problems is, ummm, hard.
01:09 chromatic (c) Because estimating volunteer work is very difficult.
01:09 kid51 Casan:  But issues that are considered to be 'blockers' are discussed in our weekly online #parrotsketch meetings.
01:09 Casan kid51: to be honest, I myself have been caught up elsewhere, and have only followed dev from the side, and that line was probably also more harsh than intended, but wearing the external hat for once that would not be a far fetched point of view.
01:09 kid51 Casan:  Are there particular areas in which you might contribute?
01:09 kid51 ... or with which you are particularly concerned?
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01:11 kid51 One of the things we try to do (perhaps with not great success) is to match:  (Volunteer time; Volunteer skill sets) => (Tasks needing attention).
01:11 Casan kid51: mine would be marketing, coordination, QA, as a programmer I'm just a user. I do understand the issues involved.
01:12 kid51 Can you do any testing?  Do you have any access to OSes, platforms, etc., that are not well represented in our Smolder reports?
01:12 Casan chromatic: fully understandable. been there. and don't get me wrong, I'm definately not bashing, just curious.
01:13 Casan kid51: only freebsd and win32
01:13 kid51 What C-compilers do you use on win32?
01:13 chromatic A lot of tasks are blocking on a long-delayed refactoring.
01:14 Casan kid51: but I could also turn it around, by asking what don't we have covered already, and then build the reasources to head that way.
01:14 kid51 We can always use a steady stream of Win32 test results done with a given compiler:  MSVC; gcc on Windows; mingw; etc.
01:15 kid51 chromatic:  Which "long-delayed refactoring" are you referring to?
01:15 chromatic PCC rewiring.
01:16 kid51 PCC being?
01:16 chromatic Parrot Calling Conventions
01:16 purl Parrot Calling Conventions is probably my best bet. But I don't know if anyone's done tests yet.
01:16 kid51 ah, yes.
01:16 * kid51 brain gets confused with all these abbreviations beginning with 'P'
01:18 Andy joined #parrot
01:19 kid51 Casan:  If you are capable of studying a C-function and writing one sentence of documentation describing what it does, we have *hundreds* of such functions needing documentation.
01:20 Casan kid51: sounds like a good place to start.
01:20 kid51 Casan:  I should also note that summing up the total of tickets with 1.4 and 1.5 milestones produces an artificially large result (more)
01:21 kid51 ... because there are a number of tickets which represent the final elimination of deprecated items that can only be done once 1.4 -- a six-month deprecation point -- is past.
01:21 kid51 So, e.g., I have 5 tickets, none of which I can commit code for and close until Tuesday -- but after then all 5 will go poof.
01:21 theory joined #parrot
01:22 Casan kid51: as for your other suggestion with the win32 tests, and the code review/documentation part, then I was just looking at the "how to get involved" list, where I actually expected a "what we need to evolve faster, better" with the suggestion you just gave.. but didn't find them there.. are they written elsewhere?
01:23 kid51 Casan:  valid point; I don't think they are elsewhere
01:23 kid51 re C function documentation:  Run 'prove -v t/codingstd/c_function_docs.t' to see what needs documentation.
01:24 kid51 "what we need to evolve faster, better" is 10 more advanced C programmers willing to donate 10-20 hours weekly to Parrot  ;-)
01:25 Casan kid51: my relation so far is that I have read about anything I could find for years and years on parrot, and perl, maintain an in-house developed cms in p5, and I'm only a basic programmer, though I know the concepts, but I spend most of my time in management and marketing, so I'm not the sharpest programming tool, but one bite at a time I can do..
01:26 Whiteknight chromatic: is there any new news about pcc_rewiring? I would like to bump that up to high priority after 1.4 is released
01:27 kid51 Casan:  Well, my own fu beyond P5 is limited ... but take a look at our Smolder reports and think about submitting.
01:27 chromatic It's allison's.
01:27 chromatic In theory, she'll have time after OSCON.
01:27 kid51 purl:  attending OSCON?
01:27 purl kid51: wish i knew
01:28 chromatic I'm not planning anything until it lands.
01:28 kid51 purl:  OSCON
01:28 purl OSCON is, like, july 23 to 27 in portland, or at http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2007/ or July 21-25, 2008 in Portland, OR or http://www.conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ or rumored to move to san jose next year :(
01:28 Tene kid51: thank you for your ticket work. i've commented on the tickets relevant to me (exceptions).
01:28 kid51 Tene you're welcome
01:28 Whiteknight when is OSCON?
01:28 chromatic Starts tomorrow.
01:28 Whiteknight oh, so soon
01:28 Tene Whiteknight: allison told me that it was very high priority for her shortly after 1.4
01:29 Whiteknight okay, that's exactly what I wanted to hear
01:29 Tene Me too.
01:29 Casan kid51: ok so if we could do some more efforts in getting more advanced C programmers, that should help. thats another item for the "what we need list" now thats something to relate to. ok, will save that, and think about what to do in regards to these suggestions..
01:29 Whiteknight because I have a lot of plans that are blocking on that, although I also have a few projects that are unrelated too
01:30 kid51 purl OSCON
01:30 purl hmmm... OSCON is the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, July 20-24, 2009, in San Jose, CA, USA (http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009)
01:31 kid51 Casan:  Thanks.
01:31 Whiteknight goodnight
01:31 kid51 purl attending OSCON
01:31 purl attending OSCON is pmichaud
01:36 kid51 purl attending OSCON
01:36 purl i heard attending OSCON was pmichaud or Andy
01:39 Andy ME!  ME!
01:40 kid51 Andy r u there yet?
01:40 Andy nope
01:40 kid51 When do us poor folks get to hear "Just Enough C For Open Source Projects"?
01:40 Andy fly me out to NY
01:43 chromatic Hm, that might make a nice book.
01:44 Casan reading through the slides from oscon2008 already. a nice pointer for me, good timing.
01:45 Andy chrmoatic I was thinking that
01:45 Andy Casan: Tuesday I do it as a 3-hour tutorial
01:46 Casan Andy: Tuesday I'm in Denmark, busy working, preparing for moving to France to study/work.
01:47 Casan Andy: any chance the 3 hour tutorial will be recorded?
01:47 Andy none
01:49 Andy O'reilly charges big bucks for tutotials.  They're not going to record + give away.
01:50 Casan Andy: its alright.
01:52 Casan actually that brings up a thought (although my intention is not to challenge the business model), but one of the reasons ruby got sexy was the free video tutorials en mass. does the pro training biz in perl have a natural dilemma with this?
01:54 dalek TT #858 created by jkeenan++: HLL exception handling
01:55 Topic for #parrotis now http://www.parrot.org/ | 277 RTs left | Next release: 2009-07-21
01:55 Infinoid kid51++
02:03 theory joined #parrot
02:08 dalek TT #825 closed by jkeenan++: PATCH: Fix incorrect references in pdd22
02:09 dalek parrot: r40163 | jkeenan++ | trunk/docs/pdds/pdd22_io.pod:
02:09 dalek parrot: Applying patch correcting references to source code files supplied by jrtayloriv++ in https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/825.
02:09 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40163/
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02:32 dalek TT #859 created by jkeenan++: 'make splint' needs graceful failure message
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02:52 cotto Heh.  Thunderbird flagged the commit message for r40162 as a possible scam.
02:55 cotto chromatic, what's this PARROT_API business I'm supposed to make the call on?
02:56 chromatic If it's worthwhile or safe to edit source files and headers to add annotations to API functions.
02:58 cotto I'm not familiar with this issue.  Would this just be to help generate documentation?
02:58 cotto since we already have PARROT_EXPORT
02:59 chromatic I'm not sure exactly.  I'd like to have a way to enforce things, but we're talking about tagging a lot of functions.
02:59 cotto btw, is it safe to reject any TGE improvement tickets?
03:00 chromatic allison knows better there.
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03:01 cotto Is OSCON going to interfere #ps this week?
03:01 cotto s/re/re with/
03:01 chromatic Only for the attendees.
03:02 cotto any idea who's going?
03:02 kid51 purl attending OSCON
03:02 purl hmmm... attending OSCON is pmichaud or Andy
03:02 * kid51 must sleep
03:02 purl $kid51->sleep(8 * 3600);
03:02 cotto going to OSCON?
03:02 purl going to OSCON is rjbs or perigrin's boss and boss's boss or pjf or jarich or nothingmuch and obra or tchrist
03:02 cotto OSCON?
03:02 purl i think OSCON is the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, July 20-24, 2009, in San Jose, CA, USA (http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009)
03:03 cotto no worries.  It's not critical to close old RT tickets before the releae.
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03:54 bacek_at_work "Cristoph Otto, Software Test Engineer, Microsoft Open Source Software Lab"
03:54 bacek_at_work sounds familiar :)
04:12 cotto LinkedIn?
04:12 purl O SPPM tem um grupo de profissionais no LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=64857 Você já se cadastrou lá?
04:12 cotto http://javascript.crockford.com/www_svendto​fte_com/code/curried_javascript/index.html - so...many...commas
04:13 cotto bacek_at_work, My LinkedIn profile should reflect reality more accurately now.
04:14 bacek_at_work cotto: I did check it :)
04:14 cotto Where'd you see that then?
04:15 chromatic Alias's journal
04:15 purl Alias's journal is http://use.perl.org/~Alias/journal/
04:16 bacek_at_work Alia^W What chromatic said
04:17 cotto It's nice to get something like my name out there ;)
04:17 bacek_at_work cotto: Hey! I was mentioned in one of chromatic's posts! Why do you need more? :)
04:26 Andy What am I doing wrong here?
04:26 Andy http://erxz.com/pb/18875
04:26 Andy why does no sorting happen?
04:28 * cotto is sad he won't be able to see "The Conway Channel" at OSCON.
04:28 chromatic strcmp(3) arguments are "pointers to char"
04:29 chromatic return strcmp(* (char * const *) p1, * (char * const *) p2);
04:29 chromatic Apparently you have to write a strcmp wrapper.
04:29 Andy yeah, but void should be the same
04:30 Andy note that the reverse run reverses the order
04:30 chromatic It should be the same, but gcc warns about it, so it doesn't think it's the same.
04:30 Andy is it comparing actual pointer values, not the strings?
04:30 chromatic Maybe glibc inlines something.
04:31 chromatic That could be too.
04:31 Andy yeah, but I'm ignoring that warning
04:31 Andy digging.
04:31 TonyC strcmp() wants names[i], called like that it receives names+i
04:31 TonyC where i is the index being compared
04:34 Andy somehow it's comparing pointer values, not pointer contents
04:36 chromatic Right, qsort() calls its functions with pointers to pointers to char.
04:38 Andy no, that's not right.  At least that's not how I understand it, or read the docs
04:38 Andy qsort(void *base, size_t nmemb, size_t size, int (*compar)(const void *, const void *));
04:39 chromatic man 3 bsearch
04:39 Andy yes, and?
04:39 purl and is the register frame something like the Sparc's?
04:39 Andy what are you seeing there
04:40 TonyC if you were sorting an int array the parameters would be int *, you're sorting an array of const char *, so the parameters are const char * *
04:41 chromatic Yep, you need the dereference.
04:42 Andy there we go
04:43 Andy thank you
04:43 TonyC reverse_nocase looks wrong too
04:44 Andy yup
04:46 Andy fixed http://erxz.com/pb/18878
04:48 Andy mmm, consting
04:52 Andy what a fine teaching moment this will provide on Tuesday
04:52 Andy "Do you hate pointers yet?  Let's turn to the next slide."
04:54 chromatic Don't hate pointers.  Hate pass-by-value.
04:55 bacek_at_work [14:54:21] Tom: and then on the next slide
04:55 bacek_at_work [14:54:25] Tom: HAHHA YOU FOLLOWED A POINTER!!1
04:55 bacek_at_work :)
04:55 bacek_at_work chromatic: pass-by-value is good optimisation strategy
05:12 chromatic Until you do type erasure.
05:17 cotto Should we deprecate Iterator instantiation in favor of the iter opcode?
05:17 cotto or does Iterator instantiation dtrt
05:18 cotto nm; dtrt
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05:53 bacek_at_work cotto: let's deprecate it
05:53 bacek_at_work Current Iterator.init_pmc is awful.
06:04 cotto +1
06:04 purl 1
06:04 cotto it's ugly
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06:53 cotto I'd like to reiterate the request that all commit messages be prefixed with the effected subsystem or task in square brackets.
06:54 cotto japhb, ping
07:03 cotto msg japhb How would you summarize your OpenGL changes since the last release?
07:03 purl Message for japhb stored.
07:06 dalek parrot: r40164 | cotto++ | trunk/NEWS:
07:06 dalek parrot: [NEWS] likely inadequate NEWS update for the 1.5 release - if you see any holes, fill them!
07:06 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40164/
07:08 cotto Gah.  It's obviously inadequate for 1.5.  me--
07:09 moritz isn't it 1.4?
07:12 cotto Yes.
07:12 cotto That's why.
07:13 moritz ah.
07:13 cotto At least I managed to get NEWS right.
07:13 moritz nobody reads commit messages anyway
07:14 cotto Or maybe I'm FROM THE FUTURE.
07:14 moritz some friends of mine cited in their thesis the well known A. Nonymous, "Nobody reads references anyway"
07:17 cotto That's an excellent paper.
07:18 autark joined #parrot
07:18 moritz indeed.
07:24 Zak joined #parrot
07:25 bacek_at_work cotto: now Hashes can have native keys/values not only string/pmc.
07:25 bacek_at_work cotto: Ah. Can we add deprecation notice about nomenclature of VTABLEs?
07:29 bacek_at_work e.g. get_bignum; set_bignum_*; pow/i_pow; nextkey_keyed*;
07:35 mikehh `BTW - make html still says - Failed to process docs/book/draft/ch03_pir.pod.
07:36 mikehh should we correct this or add a dummy draft/ch03 saying that chapter 3 is now book
07:43 cotto bacek_at_work, is that for NEWS?
07:43 cotto and yes, deprecated VTABLE functions should be mentioned in DEPRECATED.pod
07:44 bacek_at_work cotto: first for NEWS. Second for DEPRECATION.pod
07:46 cotto +1 then.
07:46 cotto Heh.  SSE 4.2 has instructions intended to accelerate XML.
07:47 cotto s/XML/XML processing
07:49 moritz SSE? the CPU vectorization thing?
07:51 cotto Yes.
07:51 cotto http://blog.reverberate.org/2009/07/​18/gazelle-is-going-to-love-sse-4-2/
07:51 cotto It's fairly generic, though.
08:10 cotto bacek_at_work, if you're worried about grammar, don't be.  I'll do a cleanup pass on NEWS before the release, assuming other people add to it.
08:13 bacek_at_work cotto: I can worry about only one grammar. It usually saved in ".pg" file.
08:16 cotto That's the important one.
08:16 cotto The parser for NEWS is generally quite forgiving.
08:18 cotto night
08:20 mikehh codetest fails - All Others PASS  (pre/post config, smolder, fulltest) at r40164 - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64
08:20 nopaste "mikehh" at 90.209.69.171 pasted "PATCH for codetest failure at r40164" (30 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/17329
08:21 mikehh codetest PASSes after the patch
08:21 mikehh just trailing spaces
08:23 bacek_at_work night cotto
08:29 bacek_at_work mikehh: I'll commit it later tonight if noone else will do it before.
08:29 chromatic Applied, thanks.
08:31 dalek parrot: r40165 | chromatic++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/PMC/RO.pm:
08:31 dalek parrot: [lib] Removed trailing whitespace, updated copyright, coalesced one line
08:31 dalek parrot: (whitespace fixes by Michael Hind).
08:31 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40165/
08:32 chromatic It might be easier to give mikehh commit access to fix up little things like this as he finds them.
08:32 chromatic (while not precluding him from applying more complex patches in the future)
08:33 moritz aye
08:37 mikehh I gotta submit a CLA but my printer died on me - I am getting a new all-in-one today or tomorrow sometime
08:43 mikehh rakudo (415514b) on parrot r40164 (spec at r27621) fails t/spec/S06-signature/optional.rakudo - test 11
08:44 moritz I get the same failure
08:44 mikehh spectest runs in 10 minutes - grabs nearly all my processor resources
08:45 masak joined #parrot
08:45 mikehh 3 procs running at 100% - the other about 85%
08:46 bacek_at_work moritz: any ideas about optional.t failure?
08:46 mikehh used to take over 30 minutes on my dual proc system
08:47 moritz bacek_at_work: no
08:47 mikehh the other 3 similar tests are TODOed
08:47 moritz bacek_at_work: I did some Rakudo changes over the weekend, but I didn't touch anything that deep
08:51 mikehh it passed on r40131 but failed on r40136
08:51 moritz parrot revisions?
08:53 mikehh yeah rakudo 3d5f23c PASS - faf91f9 FAIL
08:54 moritz uhm, both 3d5f23c and faf91f9 are doc patches
08:54 mikehh spec (pugs) r27602 PASS r27603 FAIL
08:59 mikehh I can follow svn revisions - they increment - git??? - I suppose you can look at the history
09:01 moritz ah, it's a test change
09:01 moritz pugs r27603
09:01 moritz so it's fine to fudge it
09:01 mikehh byw how do you get changes between 3d5f23c... and faf91f9...
09:01 mikehh s/byw/BTW/
09:04 moritz git diff 3d5f23c..faf91f9
09:05 mikehh ah ha - I am still learning git
09:05 moritz ok, fudged the tests in pugs repo now
09:11 japhb From NEWS: "substantial optimizations in NCI": What commits were those, and are there numbers somewhere?
09:18 japhb cotto: "Beginnings of OpenGL::Math library; mark OpenGL bindings and library experimental"
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09:39 mikehh rakudo (415514b) on parrot r40164 (spec at r27622) make test/make spectest PASS
10:23 bacek_at_work joined #parrot
10:36 bacek_at_work seen fperrad
10:36 purl fperrad was last seen on #parrot 16 hours, 41 minutes and 1 seconds ago, saying: In any case, the best way to ship OpenGL is one PBC, not 2. Even when there are 2 PIR files.
10:37 Hinrik joined #parrot
10:38 Hinrik http://paste.lisp.org/display/83841 - anyone had this issue?
10:38 Hinrik right before it died it tried to display the generated Pod instead of writing it to a file, that may be the reason it fails
10:51 MoC joined #parrot
10:56 Hinrik https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/860
10:57 dalek TT #860 created by Hinrik++: Failed Pod extraction halts the build process
11:07 szabgab joined #parrot
11:10 dalek TT #861 created by MoC++: mingw32-make fails upon tools\build\c2str.pl --all
11:15 mikehh Hinric: do you have perldoc - /usr/bin/perldoc?
11:16 mikehh sorry
11:17 mikehh Hinrik: do you have perldoc - /usr/bin/perldoc?
11:19 mikehh Hinric: also see http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/htm​l/docs/book/appd_build_options.pod.html
11:20 donaldh joined #parrot
11:28 mikehh damn - did it again
11:28 mikehh Hinrik: also see http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/htm​l/docs/book/appd_build_options.pod.html
11:34 payload joined #parrot
11:37 Hinrik yeah I heave perldoc
11:37 Hinrik have*
11:38 Hinrik and it's in /usr/bin/
11:38 Hinrik as you can see in the output I pasted, those "No documentation for ..." are from perldoc
11:46 Hinrik it builds fine on another machine I have, hm
11:54 dukeleto joined #parrot
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12:01 mikehh Hinrik: from my latest build
12:01 mikehh /usr/local/bin/perldoc -ud packfile-c.pod ../src/packfile.c
12:01 mikehh Perldoc (Pod::Perldoc::ToPod) output saved to packfile-c.pod
12:02 Hinrik yeah, it's some issue with my particular machine
12:03 Hinrik just don't know what...
12:03 mikehh Pod::Perldoc::ToPod maybe?
12:07 bacek joined #parrot
12:08 bacek o hai
12:08 mikehh hi there
12:11 bacek hi mikehh
12:17 whiteknight good morning
12:17 purl Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and all they say is 'Good Morning'
12:22 mikehh hi
12:22 purl bonjour, mikehh.
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12:30 dalek parrot: r40166 | bacek++ | branches/orderedhash_revamp:
12:30 dalek parrot: Branch for deinsanify OrderedHash
12:30 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40166/
12:31 tetragon joined #parrot
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12:43 Hinrik *sigh* the problem seems to have mysteriously disappeared
13:05 Coke msg cotto TT #823 is a release blocker, still
13:05 purl Message for cotto stored.
13:05 Coke msg bacek TT #823 is a release blocker, still
13:05 purl Message for bacek stored.
13:05 kj joined #parrot
13:05 bacek Coke: hi. I'm still here.
13:05 Coke msg cotto no other fulltest failures on linux, though.
13:05 purl Message for cotto stored.
13:05 Coke bacek: the default core seems to be the only one those packfile tests pass on.
13:07 bacek Coke: checking.
13:09 bacek Coke: are you sure that you don't have some weird and orphaned foo.pmc in src/pmc?
13:09 bacek Because I can't reproduce this failure with any core... :/
13:10 bacek fast/cgoto/cgt/switch
13:10 bacek All passed. Debian/Lenny/i386
13:11 Coke bacek: I do have "context.pmc", yes.
13:11 dalek TT #862 created by coke++: remove fulltest_all make target
13:11 Coke but it's not built or linked or...
13:11 bacek Coke: that's a problem.
13:11 Coke ... why?
13:11 bacek Configure create different enum_class_Foo
13:11 Coke (it's leftover from an svn switch.)
13:12 bacek And our PBC are too fragile
13:12 Coke stupid idiotic build systme.
13:12 Coke I blame the build system - it shouldn't be adding pmcs that are not in the manifest.
13:12 Coke retrying.
13:12 bacek Coke: good luck :)
13:15 Coke that would explain why those test have been failing for me and no one else for some time.
13:15 Coke s/have/had/
13:15 Coke (since they were failing for everyone for a short time.)
13:16 bacek Indeed
13:18 dalek TT #863 created by fperrad++: GC Segfault
13:18 bacek OH NOES!
13:18 bacek Not GC! Not again!
13:18 mj41 Hi. Is there a central server to export 'make cover' html?
13:19 mj41 tapir2 can run 'make cover' at 40 minutes
13:20 skids joined #parrot
13:21 Coke mj41: we have a server for the
13:21 Coke smoke output, but not the cover output, so far as I know.
13:21 Coke bacek - have my reply all typed out in the ticket, just waiting for fulltest to finish.
13:21 * bacek crossing fingers
13:29 xiaoyafeng joined #parrot
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13:49 NotFound hi
13:53 bacek hi NotFound
13:59 jhorwitz joined #parrot
13:59 ruoso joined #parrot
14:08 bacek Coke: any luck?
14:10 Z3vil joined #parrot
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14:40 dalek TT #864 created by erez++: on Win32 binary install, parrot_config.exe contains false installation ...
14:43 pancake joined #parrot
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15:17 Coke bacek: sorry, dealing with a plumbing crisis.
15:17 Coke msg bacek works fine, yes, thanks.
15:17 purl Message for bacek stored.
15:19 cotto good morning
15:19 purl And good moroning to you, cotto.
15:19 Coke cotto: ignore my prior gloom and doom.
15:20 particle is that in response to the plumbing issue being solved?
15:20 donaldh joined #parrot
15:20 particle now you're happy, everything's working?
15:21 moritz I think wrt packfile problems
15:21 cotto Coke, you're saying that the packfile issue is ok?
15:21 cotto TT #823
15:27 dalek TT #823 closed by coke++: packfile pmc tests failing
15:28 NotFound I'm unable to reproduce TT #853
15:28 particle seems we need another ticket for the root cause of coke++'s problems
15:29 cotto Agreed, but I'm *really* glad that the root cause is known.
15:30 particle config/gen/makefiles/root.in:655 causing the issue?
15:31 pmichaud Good morning, #parrot
15:33 cotto I'll file a tt on extra .pmc files breaking parrot
15:33 particle hrmm, ok.
15:34 particle lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/Pmc2cMain.pm:95
15:34 particle unshift @{ $allargsref->{include} },
15:34 particle '.', "$allargsref->{bin}/../..", "$allargsref->{bin}/../../src/pmc", "$allargsref->{bin}/../../src/dynpmc";
15:34 particle pmc2c takes *all* .pmc files in src/pmc/ and compiles them
15:34 particle not just those in MANIFEST
15:35 particle this may be expected behavior
15:35 cotto particle, do you have a quick enough fix that I should bother filing a tt?
15:35 particle cotto: no.
15:35 particle the solution to the ticket may be documentation of expected behavior
15:36 particle or it may be a change to existing behavior
15:37 NotFound A warning if some of thew pbc obatined is not present in MANIFEST will be nice.
15:40 particle yeah, it could be because you're creating a new pmc
15:40 particle which is perfectly valid for developers
15:40 theory joined #parrot
15:40 particle and a warning seems fine in that context.
15:40 NotFound Yes, a way that let you test and experiment, but don't make easy to forget.
15:41 particle makefiles/root.in and pmc2c are in agreement, that src/pmc/*.pmc will be processed
15:43 particle actually, on platforms with a make engine that supports suffix rules well enough, *.pmc in *any* directory will be compiled
15:49 dalek TT #865 created by cotto++: extra .pmc files in src/pmc cause silent pbc compatibility breaks
16:09 Coke cotto++
16:10 Coke particle: if you're creating a new PMC, you have to add it to the manfiest.
16:10 Coke so keying off the manifest seems sane.
16:13 cotto Given that, I don't think failing on a mismatch is too onerous.
16:13 payload joined #parrot
16:26 solarion you guys hear the linux outlaws podcast #102?
16:27 Coke nope.
16:27 Coke tell me more.
16:27 solarion Coke: there's a segment about an hour or so in that talks about mono and how parrot needs more love (bkuhn from SFLC)
16:27 NotFound I never heard any podcast, and don't have any intention to start now X-)
16:28 solarion nothing technical, though
16:28 Coke NotFound: ORLY? I have about 7 days worth of podcasts queued up.
16:28 Coke need to aggressively delete some of them, apparently. =-)
16:29 solarion disk space is cheap. :)
16:29 solarion I need to do more with parrot
16:29 NotFound I read a lot faster that anyone can talk.
16:29 NotFound s/that/than
16:29 solarion I just play them while working
16:30 Coke NotFound: nice feature on the latest iphone OS - 2x playback speed on podcasts. =-)
16:30 solarion how does that work?
16:30 solarion there are some good music podcasts
16:31 NotFound Coke: I have even less intention to buy an iphone than to listen to podcasts :D
16:32 * Coke points at notfound and screams like the end of _invasion of the body snatchers_ (the one with leonard nimoy)
16:32 NotFound The only Apple product I had some intention to but was a Newton... and it was the less successful Apple product ever X-)
16:32 NotFound s/but/buy
16:33 NotFound Well, maybe the Apple III was worse.
16:33 solarion Was it Bob-unsuccessful?
16:34 NotFound Very few people even knows what it was. That must mean something about his success.
16:39 NotFound japhb: ping
16:39 Coke NotFound: the iphone is approaching newton usefulness.
16:40 Coke modulo the handwriting recognition, of course.
16:40 NotFound Coke: Let's hope it doesn't approach his commercial success ;)
16:42 solarion or alchemical explorations
16:44 nopaste "NotFound" at 213.96.228.50 pasted "OpenGL HLL usage test" (92 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/17332
16:46 NotFound I think the differences between this test and the example static-triangle can explain the problem in TT #853
16:48 Coke msg cotto https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/3 shows 17 tickets for the 1.4.0 release; I suspect at least 15 of those are not getting done.
16:48 purl Message for cotto stored.
16:48 whiteknight In general I think random tickets which are assigned to a release don't care much weight
16:49 whiteknight we should probably suggest people not assign new tickets to an upcoming release because it's meaningless
16:49 Coke whiteknight: in reality, the release designations are always meaningless.
16:49 whiteknight (unless it's demonstrably a release blocker)
16:49 particle notfound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/​File:Newton_eat_up_martha.jpg
16:49 whiteknight true
16:49 Coke whiteknight: there's no such thing as a release blocker, IME. =-)
16:49 Coke it's always 'push to next release'
16:49 cotto Coke, yeah.  I noticed that earlier.
16:50 NotFound particle: good example :D
16:50 Coke whiteknight: 8 of those tickets are /roadmap/ items. None of those are done.
16:50 * Coke checks to make sure he's not assigned to any of those.
16:52 NotFound io.t failures in win32 are easy to fix: just revert the test rewriting in pir
16:52 Coke +1
16:52 purl 1
16:52 Coke purl, you're a GENIUS!
16:52 purl Coke: excuse me?
16:52 Coke a genius?
16:52 purl a genius is working in CPAN shell
16:52 Coke cpan shell?
16:52 purl rumour has it cpan shell is just so darned useful. or "perl -MCPAN -e shell;" or TURTLE POWER! or "perldoc CPAN" or the Greatest Thing since Monkeypants or "perl -MCPAN -e 'install Module'" or much more fun if you have a big pipe or needs too much goddamn ram. or (but maybe try CPAN -e 'install CPANPLUS')
16:53 Coke CPANPLUS?
16:53 purl CPANPLUS is a generic CPAN build engine or helly as a flake or used for smoking modules or at http://oss.dwim.org/cpanplus-devel/
16:53 Coke flake?
16:53 NotFound rumour?
16:53 purl rumour has it rumour is that most of those will be in the us
16:53 Coke =-)
16:53 moritz us?
16:53 purl us is still trying to find him.
16:53 moritz him?
16:53 purl well, him is it!
16:53 moritz it?
16:53 purl i guess it is difficult, yeah. I was interested in it about 14 or so years ago and then gave up. Sold off most of Kyriel's language references.
16:53 NotFound yeah?
16:54 Psyche^ joined #parrot
16:56 cotto monkeypants?
16:56 purl Oh boy!
16:57 Coke hee.
16:57 Coke squee!
17:05 mokurai joined #parrot
17:06 Coke I can revert the op test, I think.
17:08 dalek parrot: r40167 | NotFound++ | trunk (2 files):
17:08 dalek parrot: [examples] add a variant of opengl static-triangle with HLL
17:08 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40167/
17:10 Coke it's not as simple as a reversion. some changes have been made since the test was converted.
17:10 NotFound Shit!
17:10 Coke aye.
17:11 Coke lesse, one is "works on openbsd", that's easy...
17:12 Coke r39814 is a little harder, but still doable.
17:12 Coke I can try to do it this evening if no one beats me to it.
17:13 NotFound Maybe we must have dropped all platform checks, assume it works wherever and check smoke results... but not now, just before the release.
17:14 Coke we could also try a better translation to pir for the test.
17:14 Coke might it be a flushing issue?
17:15 Coke (though I think I tried adding a .'flush'() to no avail.
17:15 NotFound I'm almost sure is some problem with stdout, but haven't been able to diagnose it better.
17:16 Coke ah. I tried to flush the pipe handle, not stdout.
17:16 flh joined #parrot
17:17 NotFound The real problem is that the test is too simplistic, but I lack knowledge about using temp files in tests.
17:18 Coke nope, flushing doesn't help.
17:19 Coke I can probably do the de-conversion and keep fperrad's changes.
17:22 tomyan joined #parrot
17:33 Coke msg cotto partcl passes all tests (except for the inferior runloop issues) on 2/3 platforms I have access to.
17:33 purl Message for cotto stored.
17:33 Coke (the 3rd is windows, and I have no idea if those tests ever worked there.)
17:34 cotto Coke, I'm here.  You don't have to msg me. ;)
17:34 Coke ah. likely due to a lack of ICU.
17:34 Coke cotto: yes, but if I do it that way I don't have to msg you later!
17:34 Coke this way, it's more work for you not me. =-)
17:34 cotto I guess I admire your laziness.
17:35 Coke ^_
17:35 Coke er, ^_^
17:36 Coke hurm. if I require ICU, I suppose I should squawk if someone tries to build me with a parrot that is not config'd with it.
17:36 Coke Anyone bored and want to write some perl? =-)
17:36 cotto "Someone" should fix make html before the release.
17:37 Coke what's wrong with it?
17:38 Coke Failed to process docs/book/draft/ch03_pir.pod. ?
17:38 mj41_ joined #parrot
17:38 cotto Yeah, that.
17:38 purl Sure, that.
17:39 Coke we have MANIFEST-style information in the lib for that. very evil.
17:39 NotFound And failed silently.
17:39 Coke fixing shortly.
17:39 cotto I don't know if it's because of PseudoPOD or actual invalid POD.
17:39 cotto Great.  Coke++
17:39 Coke cotto: fixed in 40168
17:40 Coke the file was removed.
17:40 dalek parrot: r40168 | coke++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Docs/Section/Parrot.pm:
17:40 dalek parrot: [cage] the POD file referenced here was removed from the repository.
17:40 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40168/
17:40 cotto Shouldn't the other files be renumbered and renamed?
17:41 Coke they're in draft. =-)
17:41 Coke I think that means 'not worth the effort.'
17:41 cotto Great.  I'll call that solved then.
17:44 Coke was there a ticket?
17:45 NotFound $ cd docs/html/ ; $ find . -size 0 ; # Uhhhhh
17:45 cotto Heh.  I just noticed that, NotFound.
17:46 Coke #765.
17:46 NotFound I think there is a ticket about this.
17:46 Coke #765.
17:46 NotFound Yeah
17:46 cotto That'd also be nice to fix before the release.
17:46 solarion where's the rakudo irc channel?
17:47 solarion just says "Ask on IRC how best to help"
17:47 NotFound Will be nice if make html showed some warning about empty result files.
17:47 PerlJam solarion: freenode #perl6
17:47 solarion ah, that 'splains it, thanks
17:48 Coke oddly, metacommitter_guide doesn't show in lib/ (where 'make html' figures out what to generate)
17:50 Coke yah, I think we just need to add those files to the list of things getting generated.
17:50 Coke also, "lib/Parrot/Docs/Section/Parrot.pm" has a lot of commented out code (use's)
17:52 dukeleto joined #parrot
17:52 Coke dukeleto: hio
17:56 dukeleto hola
17:57 dukeleto i sent my parrot CLA in, how do I get a commit bit?
17:58 Coke dukeleto: you need 2 people to say "yes, please."
17:58 Coke have you created a trac account?
17:59 dukeleto yes, i have a trac account
17:59 Coke k.
18:02 NotFound And you must take into account that mail is a bit slow than email ;)
18:02 Coke he faxed it in, which auto-converts to email.
18:02 dukeleto_ joined #parrot
18:02 Coke aigh, he's multiplying.
18:02 NotFound Faxed? Last time I read a real paper was required.
18:02 Coke nope.
18:03 Coke that may predate the foundation.
18:03 NotFound Ah, nice.
18:03 pmichaud cla?
18:03 purl rumour has it cla is Contributor License Agreement or http://www.perlfoundation.org/​contributor_license_agreement or http://www.parrot.org/foundation/legal or http://www.parrot.org/files/parrot_cla.pdf
18:04 Coke dukeleto: I'm happy to be your sponsor if you don't have one already. give me a moment to enable commit bits.
18:04 Coke (if you break trunk just before the supported release, I will be most displeased. =-)
18:04 dukeleto_ Coke: will definitely not break trunk before a release : ) i will wait until the next release is out the door first :)
18:05 cotto Yay!  Fresh blood!
18:05 dukeleto_ mmmmmm, fresh blood
18:05 Coke verify your trac id for me?
18:06 dukel3to Coke: dukeleto
18:06 purl dukeleto is, like, still feeling the effects
18:06 NotFound We'll tell the Harkkonen if you do that.
18:06 Coke dukel3to: done.
18:06 dukel3to shweet
18:07 dukel3to wheels within wheels...
18:07 purl Wheels within wheels in a spiral array. A pattern so grand and complex. Time after time we lose sight of the way. Our causes can't see their effects.
18:07 dukel3to purl: nice
18:07 purl I'm smooth like that
18:08 dukel3to Coke: so now I can commit via svn with my trac id and password?
18:08 Coke that should work. I'm sure you can find a typo in the docs somewhere to fix.
18:12 dukel3to and should I be adding myself to CREDITS  ?
18:14 sekimura joined #parrot
18:16 cotto That's a good idea.
18:17 dukel3to cool
18:17 nopaste "rg" at 93.104.50.113 pasted "PLATFORM updates for the platforms I'm running smoketests on" (24 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/17336
18:18 rg only changed the date. since they are green ;)
18:21 clinton joined #parrot
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18:31 darbelo joined #parrot
18:33 cotto Hi darbelo
18:36 dalek parrot: r40169 | cotto++ | trunk/PLATFORMS:
18:36 dalek parrot: [PLATFORMS] platform status updates courtesy of rg++
18:36 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40169/
18:36 darbelo hi cotto
18:36 treed Is the double free infinite loop a known/being worked on bug?
18:37 chromatic Yes.
18:37 treed k
18:37 * treed runs into it all the time.
18:38 treed Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp', with signature 'PP->I'
18:38 treed Is there some way I can insist that my cmp sub does in fact have that signature?
18:40 chromatic What's your cmp's multi declaration?
18:41 treed .sub '_cmp' :method :vtable('cmp') :multi(P,"CardinalArray")
18:41 treed Initially it didn't have one, I added it trying to get past that.
18:41 treed wait.
18:41 treed Did I recompile after that?
18:41 treed >_>
18:41 * treed tries to be sure.
18:42 treed Okay, yeah, still fails.
18:44 chromatic What happens if you change P to PMC?
18:45 Coke P should be _
18:45 treed No change.
18:45 * treed tries that.
18:45 treed ISTR trying _ first, though.
18:46 treed Really wish Cardinal's parser were faster.
18:46 Coke treed: is it slower than partcl's? =-)
18:46 treed Yeah, no change.
18:46 treed Coke: Haven't tried it.
18:47 treed But it takes a good 10-15 seconds to compile a 20 line file.
18:47 treed Maybe more.
18:47 treed It takes longer to parse Test.rb than it does to completely rebuild cardinal.
18:47 treed 5 minutes to run ~80 test files
18:48 treed Tene says he has some ideas about how to fix the parser, but he hasn't written them down for me yet.
18:49 Tene Coke: Yes, cardinal's parser is slower than partcl's
18:49 Tene I have a few examples that take several minutes to parse.
18:50 Coke it is quite possible to write slow  .pg
18:51 cotto whiteknight, is the win64 build working?
18:51 athomason joined #parrot
18:53 Coke treed - this could be related to a bug I opened for partcl.
18:53 whiteknight cotto: sort of
18:53 whiteknight it builds, but doesn't pass all tests
18:53 whiteknight I will open a few tickets eventualy for it
18:54 treed Coke: Oh?
18:54 dalek parrot: r40170 | cotto++ | trunk/NEWS:
18:54 dalek parrot: [NEWS] more news updates for 1.4
18:54 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40170/
18:55 Coke treed: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/784
18:55 cotto whiteknight, does that mean an unmodified checkout from svn builds (even with test failures)?
18:56 Coke (if so, get a PLATFORMS entry update.)
18:56 whiteknight cotto: I think it does build, yes. I need to check and update it tonight
18:57 treed Coke: Except that in my case, I'm explicitly declaring a new op sub. May still be related.
18:58 treed Maybe indicates that subclasses aren't being searched for that sort of thing?
18:58 cotto Cool.  Can you update the platforms entry?
18:58 whiteknight cott: I will update it, yes
18:58 cotto much obliged
19:00 Coke make examples_tests has a segfault. whee.
19:02 treed Coke: Regarding your bug, I wonder what Integer's sub for that is declared as?
19:03 Coke treed: it's in src/pmc/integer.pmc
19:03 Coke (it's a C function, not a PIR sub.)
19:04 treed Ah.
19:04 treed I was wondering if maybe the sig was specifically referencing Integer, but it doesn't seem to be.
19:05 dalek parrot: r40171 | coke++ | trunk/PLATFORMS:
19:05 dalek parrot: Update darwin status.
19:05 dalek parrot: Remove out of date comment for darwin (*3). Remove unused comment (*4)
19:05 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40171/
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19:13 treed Has anyone examined that bug in the context of making a new un-subclassed class that implements a vtable op?
19:13 treed And seeing if that works?
19:14 Coke it would be nice if someone who wasn't me updated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrot_Foundation to reflect the positions mentioned here: http://www.parrotblog.org/2008/06/​announcing-parrot-foundation.html
19:14 Coke treed; I have not, no; typically if someone's done something for a ticket, they'd leave a note on the ticket.
19:14 treed k
19:32 jhorwitz cotto: were you planning on tagging before or after #ps tomorrow?
19:35 whiteknight Coke: what else from that blog post needs to be added to the WP page?
19:39 japhb NotFound: pong.  I haven't had a chance to backlog, but I noticed your ping.  What's up?
19:40 NotFound japhb: I'm looking at TT #853
19:41 NotFound japhb: Have you played with the lua failure, or just commenting in general?
19:42 japhb NotFound: I've mostly been responding to fperrad's comments, and making sure there was as much historical info in the ticket as I knew.
19:42 japhb I have not had a chance to recreate the bug myself.
19:42 japhb Damn $paying_job ....
19:44 NotFound The problem is that I don't think that reverting the change is a good idea, and even less if I can't chekch that doing that solve the problem.
19:45 NotFound I commited an example that shows that using the opengl lib from inside .HLL works.
19:45 japhb Ah, from your last comment on TT #853, it looks like the problem is that I broke the mold -- I use .include for its direct functional purpose, rather than just as a way to read "header" files.
19:45 japhb Thus subverting the dichotomy between library/ and include/
19:46 NotFound japhb: yes, but my main point is that the load_bytecode form can work, and in fact it does.
19:46 japhb NotFound: fair enough.
19:46 japhb I'm looking at your example now.
19:47 NotFound If there is some problem with lua, lua must be fixed, not parrot worsened.
19:47 Coke whiteknight: I was thinking the list of board positions and their occupants.
19:47 Coke rather than "allison is in charge." =-)
19:50 whiteknight Coke: done.
19:50 NotFound japhb: for the berak mold part don't worry, it was common in the repo before we started fixing it.
19:50 japhb NotFound: why do you need to explicitly grab the namespace in static-triangle-hll.pir and do "import_gl($P0)"?  Why doesn't the defaulting code in OpenGL.pir's _export_all_functions Just Work?
19:51 NotFound japhb: uh, I was not sure if it was required, introduced it at the start and forgot to test with it removed.
19:52 Coke whiteknight: Danke.
19:52 NotFound japhb: but I think is clear to explictly show where it is supposed to be exporting to.
19:53 japhb If it works for you without, can you pull that out?  I'd like minimal differences between the variants, since the static-triangle* files are all intended to be strictly for debugging, making "real" differences stand out and unimportant stuff go away.
19:53 japhb Or, if you like, note in a comment that it works either way.
19:54 japhb As long as it is clear to our future selves that just because there is HLL scaffolding, it doesn't suddenly break the namespace handling.
19:55 NotFound Well, the main problem is that I don't know what interp['namespace'; 1] is supposed to be
19:55 japhb caller's namespace
19:55 japhb (first caller)'s namespace, to be specific.
19:56 NotFound Urgh.
19:56 japhb Yeah, the API is ugly.  I just use it, I didn't design it, I promise.  ;-)
19:56 jhorwitz cotto: nm, i saw your e-mail
19:58 NotFound Yes, and the doc of the function is clear. Then yes, I think it does the same with or without parameter in the example.
19:58 integral joined #parrot
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20:04 NotFound japhb: fixed
20:04 japhb NotFound: thanks
20:06 japhb NotFound: OK, so what's the current status?  You believe that if lua if broken for fperrad, it must be fixed so that the current code works, and #853 should be rejected?
20:06 japhb s/if broken/is broken/
20:07 dalek parrot: r40172 | NotFound++ | trunk/examples/opengl/static-triangle-hll.pir:
20:07 dalek parrot: [examples] avoid unneeded namespace argument in import gl functions
20:07 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40172/
20:07 japhb s/current code/current OpenGL_funcs loading code/
20:07 japhb sheesh
20:09 NotFound I think the fix is wrong, it uses hardcoded paths that doesn't woork with an installed parrot.
20:10 NotFound It can work if you use the compiled .pbc, but looking at the lua code it seems to be using the pir
20:10 NotFound So I'm confused.
20:12 mokurai joined #parrot
20:12 treed Coke: I commented on your bug with a PIR snippet that works around the bug, but which shows that your bug isn't the same as my problem.
20:13 NotFound Anyway, lua has no fixed release AFAIK, so if it is broken with 1.4 release, it can be fixed later.
20:14 NotFound Is there any other HLL that uses the opengl library?
20:14 treed Cardinal doesn't.
20:15 NotFound That's the bad part, I don't like very much the idea of breaking the only usage.
20:16 japhb NotFound: Rakudo, of course.
20:17 japhb Well, Rakudo doesn't rewrap it -- you can just use it directly.  Hence the .p6 examples.
20:18 NotFound That can be enough to do some tests... I'll take a look.
20:18 japhb lua rewraps apparently in order to exactly match the design of the OpenGL binding in "original" lua.
20:19 NotFound The problem seems to be that OSCON is interfering with people availability
20:19 japhb OSCON is a problem whenever I'm not attending.  :-)
20:20 NotFound But if we all attend, who does the release? ;)
20:20 dukeleto joined #parrot
20:21 japhb Lightning Talk Live Release!
20:22 Tene japhb: you have access to cygwin, iirc?
20:23 japhb Tene: Not recently, no.
20:23 Tene Ah, nm.
20:23 Coke Tene: I do, on occasion.
20:23 Tene I added panels support to Curses.pir, and just kind of guessed the cygwin version of the name, based on google hints.
20:23 Tene r40153
20:24 japhb Tene: any progress on the OpenGL::Math::Vec4 problem?  Or was that put off for after the release?
20:24 Tene japhb: Um... no idea.  I do have a counterexample that works fine for me, though.
20:25 Tene japhb: Elementary.pir in http://github.com/tene/parrot-elementary/tree
20:27 treed Okay.
20:27 NotFound japhb: triangle.p6 works fine with parrot trunk installed.
20:27 treed So, I've done some further testing with implementing a cmp vtable sub.
20:27 treed Array doesn't like it, subclasses of array don't like it, but a new class will readily use it.
20:27 NotFound I'll try now with the revert to .include
20:28 treed (by don't like it, I mean that I get the message about no cmp with PP->I
20:28 dalek parrot: r40173 | dukeleto++ | trunk/CREDITS:
20:28 dalek parrot: Adding myself to CREDITS
20:28 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40173/
20:28 mokurai left #parrot
20:28 treed Bug with array, or am I doing something stupid?
20:31 dalek rakudo: 3a2c5e2 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
20:31 dalek rakudo: add S02-names/identifier.t to spectest.data
20:31 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​a2c5e2bdfcc1aeb2e99bab1d1ad95f42bb1bb80
20:31 dalek rakudo: 0cdcc88 | (Bob Kuo)++ | README:
20:31 dalek rakudo: fixes typo in README file, 'git-format-patch' is actually 'git format-patch'
20:31 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
20:31 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​cdcc88ca3e03358d8d89508838fc395741ff82e
20:31 tomyan joined #parrot
20:31 NotFound What does 'use xxx:from<parrot>' in rakudo? load_bytecode 'xxx.pbc' ?
20:32 Tene NotFound: no
20:32 Tene NotFound: :from<foo> does:
20:33 Tene load_library foo\n$P0 = compreg foo\n $P0.'load_library'(xxx)
20:33 Tene and then pulls symbols out of the return value of load_library and stuffs them into the namespace that called 'use'
20:34 japhb Tene: (re: Elementary.pir): Nice to see that NCI::Utils is getting some use by other libraries.  Sucks that someone else is having to do the callback helper cha-cha.  Although not exactly unexpected.  Did you manage to make any design improvements for your callback helper library over the one I did for GLUT?
20:34 Tene japhb: I didn't know that you did one for GLUT
20:35 NotFound Tene: It uses xxx without adding any suffix?
20:35 Tene NotFound: it passes xx to the other language to interpret.
20:36 Tene NotFound: as far as rakudo is concerned, it's magic.
20:36 Tene are you askign what the 'parrot' language does with it?
20:37 NotFound I was not, but yes, I don't remenber what does trunk when there isno suufix specified.
20:38 Tene NotFound: if you want all the details, look at load_library in runtime/parrot/languages/parrot/parrot.pir
20:39 NotFound I think that deleting all pbc in all directories will be faster X-)
20:39 mokurai joined #parrot
20:39 Coke tene: can't build parrot on cygwin: no -lcrypt
20:41 NotFound Unfortunately rakudo is not helpful to decide about the question because it already depends on the parrot build tree.
20:41 japhb Tene: yes, config/gen/opengl.pm : gen_glut_callbacks() generates src/glut_callbacks.c , which compiles into libglutcb.so
20:41 pmichaud hello all
20:41 purl It's a crazy world, but hello to you too!
20:42 japhb o/
20:46 dukeleto_ joined #parrot
20:46 NotFound Well, in doubt I'll keep the current status unless someone says a sound reason in time for the release.
20:51 payload joined #parrot
21:06 allison_perl joined #parrot
21:18 jrtayloriv joined #parrot
21:23 bacek joined #parrot
21:25 Whiteknight joined #parrot
21:54 dalek cardinal: fbdf8d1 | (Ted Reed)++ |  (3 files):
21:54 dalek cardinal: Implement cmp vtable op for Array, and make the <=> operator use cmp; test included.
21:54 dalek cardinal: review: http://github.com/cardinal/cardinal/commit​/fbdf8d1013f67ab6dd88f269fb02010c3792eb82
22:02 bacek good morning #parrot
22:02 chromatic good moroning to you
22:02 allison good morning bacek
22:03 bacek I read "chromatic" instead of "purl"...
22:03 * bacek need more coffee.
22:03 bacek good morning allison and chromatic
22:07 dalek TT #866 created by bacek++: DEPRECATE (after review) some VTABLE functions
22:10 bacek allison: I have question about TT#784 (subclassing breaks multi dispatch)
22:10 bacek What is "correct way to use MMD"?
22:11 bacek (And my patch actually add MULTIs only for "math" VTABLEs. Not all of them)
22:12 dalek parrot: r40174 | bacek++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
22:12 dalek parrot: Add more deprecations for Iterator and VTABLE
22:12 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40174/
22:12 allison bacek: aye, but not all PMCs should have multis even for the math vtables
22:13 bacek allison: Can you give example of such PMC? I don't quite understand it...
22:13 allison putting in a VTABLE function instead of multi dispatch is a valid optimization
22:13 allison so dispatch should go through the vtable functions primarily, allowing the PMC to decide if it should multiple dispatch
22:13 bacek I've put MULTI only for implemented VTABLE.
22:14 bacek So, technically, it still use VTABLE for core PMCs.
22:14 bacek And falling to MMD only if no candidates found.
22:15 bacek Or I missed something obvious?
22:16 * allison rereading the ticket
22:18 bacek Yay. Comment for "generate_multi_for_vtable" is wrong.
22:18 bacek (copy-paste)--
22:20 allison bacek: it's mainly that generating multis for every math multi is a pretty broad and blunt way of working around a bug
22:20 allison bacek: I'd like to find and fix the bug, if possible
22:22 bacek allison: afaiu, registering VTABLE in MMD will work as expected. Not sure that is "fix for the bug".
22:22 allison bacek: I'm okay with applying it as a temporary fix, as long as we leave a ticketed todo attached to the code
22:23 allison the bug is that PIR inherited PMCs aren't appropriately traversing the inheritance hierarchy with MMD
22:23 bacek allison: ok. I'll do it tomorrow after release.
22:23 Whiteknight where is the dispatch code for VTABLE multis? I don't think I've ever seen it
22:24 allison Whiteknight: its the same code as all multis
22:24 Whiteknight oh, okay.
22:24 allison what a MULTI declaration in a C PMC does is insert an NCI in the global MMD namespace
22:25 Whiteknight ah, okay. that's the piece I was missing before
22:25 * Whiteknight needs to spend more time looking at the generated code
22:26 allison I'm thinking I'd like to spend some intense time training people in parrot internals
22:26 bacek Whiteknight: nooooo. Don't do it! We need sane developers!
22:26 allison I was inspired by a meeting I'm in today
22:27 tomyan joined #parrot
22:27 allison talking about splitting out tasks from a role
22:27 Whiteknight what kind of training and what kinds of people? like existing developers or newbies?
22:27 allison existing developers
22:27 treed allison: I'd be interest in that.
22:27 bacek allison: Is "register appropriate VTABLEs in MMD directly without creating proxy " correct approach?
22:27 Whiteknight ditto, I'd be interested
22:27 treed Except I'm a newbie. :-)
22:28 treed And I'm not particularly a parrot coder.
22:28 Whiteknight There are plenty of parts of Parrot that I still only have a passing familiarity with
22:28 allison we've grown a lot in the past couple of years, and have a lot of people who have skills and interest in the internals
22:28 treed But internals are useful to know.
22:28 moritz I think the point of training is to make newbies into non-newbies
22:28 allison moritz: exactly
22:28 treed Gotta go to the market right now, though.
22:28 treed Anywhere I should pay attention for an announcement about this?
22:28 moritz I'm sure there'll be a mail on the list if there's a training session
22:28 allison and non-newbies into experts
22:29 bacek O! Can we deprecate "constant" PMCs?
22:29 bacek and experts to gods!
22:29 allison bacek: we can refactor them, but we'll always need to be able to store constant PMCs
22:30 bacek allison: they are not "constant" in current parrot...
22:30 allison bacek: yes, it's a bit of a fiction
22:30 chromatic "constant" means different things to different people.
22:30 Whiteknight our handling of "constants" is pretty lousy throughout parrot, lots of premature optimizing
22:30 chromatic Here's a nickel; ask Bjarne if he's happy with the seven definitions of const you can't say on television.
22:30 allison bacek: because you have to be able to set a value on the constant before it's set in stone
22:30 bacek In parrot "zombie" is best description for "constant"...
22:31 allison bacek: zombies have benefits for optimizations
22:31 bacek And "Generational GC" is better :)
22:32 darbelo Probably related: some decidedly non-constant PMCs are allocated from the constant pool.
22:32 * moritz wants generation zombies
22:32 chromatic Whiteknight's linked list GC scheme would work wonderfully with a constant PMC pool.
22:32 chromatic You almost get generational GC for free there.
22:32 allison bacek: generational gc is solving a similar problem
22:33 Whiteknight assuming my linked list GC scheme had worked at all
22:33 bacek and implemented :)
22:33 chromatic Your implementation was wrong, but the scheme is solid.
22:34 jhorwitz allison: [offtopic] do you see any reason to include the Parrot_cx_* functions in the embedding API?  a few they look like they *might* be useful, but i'm not too familiar.
22:34 pmichaud I have a list of Parrot functions that Rakudo currently uses/relies on
22:34 pmichaud one moment
22:35 Whiteknight chromatic: I'll do better next time :)
22:35 jhorwitz pmichaud: that will help me validate what i have, thanks.  :)
22:35 allison jhorwitz: the ones related to scheduling a task or setting a handler are useful, but a good bit of it is internal to the virtual machine
22:36 jhorwitz allison: ok, for now i'm going to list all of them just so we don't catch anyone by surprise -- all 3 of us who are embedding. :)
22:36 nopaste "pmichaud" at 209.133.114.31 pasted "Parrot functions that Rakudo uses" (31 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/17338
22:36 jhorwitz i've already eliminated everything obvious
22:37 pmichaud I included MACROS in that list
22:37 rg joined #parrot
22:37 jhorwitz thanks!
22:39 allison jhorwitz: sounds good
22:40 jhorwitz i'm really not sure how useful Parrot_mmd_* would be in an embedded environment either....  we should be trying to hide those details.
22:40 pmichaud Rakudo uses it because it implements its own multidispatch on top of Parrots
22:42 pmichaud Is PARROT_API really only intended for those things in embedded contexts?  Or is it intended to decorate any function that might be relied upon by things on top of Parrot?
22:42 bacek $dayjob time
22:42 bacek see you
22:43 chromatic The former, I think.
22:44 pmichaud Is there a marker for things that HLL's might rely upon?
22:44 jhorwitz i think it warrants more discussion, b/c it's unclear from everything i've read.  we have PARROT_EXPORT, which explicitly exports functions.  PARROT_API should also implement that behavior, but be reserved for the API exported by libparrot.
22:45 allison jhorwitz: yes, the code should just be using the regular dispatch, which does multiple dispatch behind the scenes when needed
22:46 pmichaud I don't understand.
22:46 jhorwitz me or allison?
22:46 pmichaud allison, mostly, but a little of what you wrote as well.
22:47 allison in the current plan, PARROT_API is not functionality, it's documentation
22:47 pmichaud right.
22:47 pmichaud I understand that part.
22:47 pmichaud My question is whether HLL's should limit themselves to using functions marked PARROT_API
22:49 allison (commenting on jhorwitz's discussion point) PARROT_EXPORT is essentially "what various platforms require to be exported in order for parrot core to work"
22:49 chromatic Ideally.
22:49 pmichaud That understanding matches mine.
22:50 allison pmichaud: If an HLL needs a function that isn't marked as PARROT_API, that'd make it a serious candidate for being promoted to API status
22:50 pmichaud okay.
22:50 jhorwitz exactly
22:50 pmichaud My list then is the list of candidates :-)
22:50 jhorwitz which is why i'm being very careful about some of these.  :)
22:50 tetragon joined #parrot
22:50 pmichaud (my list is the list of candidates that Rakudo would currently be wanting/needing)
22:51 jhorwitz pmichaud: the MMD ones are the only ones i don't have already, so i'll push those back on the list for now.
22:51 pmichaud Okay, great.
22:53 jhorwitz we're going to have a lot of functions at first.  a good chunk of them are the Parrot_PMC_* functions though....
22:53 pmichaud I'm fine if they _don't_ make it onto the list, as long as Rakudo has a way of handling its MMD needs :-)
22:54 pmichaud (in the long run)
22:55 allison aye, we'll need to do some cleanup/refactoring. Establishing the current practices is a hugely valuable first step.
22:55 jhorwitz right, it would be ideal if we didn't have to expose these.  but in this case, i defer to people who actually use those functions.  :)
22:56 jhorwitz ok, dinner awaits.  i'll fix up the docs later tonight in time for the release.
22:56 pmichaud jhorwitz++  # excellent work
22:57 * moritz will try to allocate some time tomorrow for a fake Rakudo release
22:57 pmichaud moritz++  # that would be excellent
22:58 jrtayloriv joined #parrot
23:03 Whiteknight urg, there isn't an strtoll function on Windows
23:03 Whiteknight well, not in MSVC anyway
23:10 theory_ joined #parrot
23:11 cotto allison, ping
23:16 dalek lua: 517eef4 | fperrad++ | src/lib/ (5 files):
23:16 dalek lua: load_bytecode PBC libraries instead of PIR
23:16 dalek lua: need to use root namespace (begining with parrot)
23:16 dalek lua: close TT #853
23:16 dalek lua: review: http://github.com/fperrad/lua/commit/51​7eef4331b706973d88aa4deeea6d1e12990d9d
23:16 dalek lua: 705f084 | fperrad++ | src/lib/ (2 files):
23:17 dalek lua: use the opcode 'iter' instead of a instantiation of 'Iterator'
23:17 dalek lua: review: http://github.com/fperrad/lua/commit/70​5f084c25018ce7dca406efd4fa33045f1d60b1
23:21 kid51 joined #parrot
23:31 allison cotto: pong
23:31 cotto allison, is TGE at the point where it won't get any changes other than bug fixes?  i.e. should http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=40002 and all tickets it refers to be rejected?
23:32 allison aye, thanks for the message (got it earlier), was working on a reply
23:32 allison the answer is yes, PCT is the succesor to TGE
23:32 allison so most issues were resolved with PCT
23:33 allison (that is, PCT was specifically developed to address many of those)
23:33 cotto Great.
23:33 allison but, we do need to check the issues and make sure PCT addressed them
23:34 cotto ok
23:38 * cotto just got a copy of Real World Haskell
23:39 mikehh cotto: excellent
23:39 patspam joined #parrot
23:40 dalek TT #860 closed by jkeenan++: Failed Pod extraction halts the build process
23:40 pmichaud if someone can summarize the issues from the tge tickets, I'll indicate whether they've been addressed or are likely to be addressed soon in pct
23:42 cotto Zak++ for recommending it and Learn You A Haskell
23:42 * darbelo wonders if implementing haskell in parrot and using it to run pugs counts as 'having two perl 6 implementations'
23:42 cotto pmichaud, they're summarized in the first post of that rt I mentioned
23:42 * cotto wonders about darbelo
23:42 pmichaud cotto: excellent.  RT #40002?
23:43 cotto yup
23:43 pmichaud it's on my todo list.  If you want to assigne the ticket to me, that might help also :-)
23:44 kid51 TGE:  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=39913
23:44 cotto pmichaud, done
23:44 kid51 TGE:  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=40002 (which u already have)
23:45 kid51 TGE:  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=43757
23:45 pmichaud can assign those to me also
23:45 kid51 TGE:  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=44979
23:45 pmichaud I'll even do a generic tge search a bit later
23:48 dalek parrot: r40175 | pmichaud++ | trunk/compilers/pge/PGE/Exp.pir:
23:48 dalek parrot: [pge]: Failing to find a named regex should die directly instead of Null PMC
23:48 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/40175/
23:48 dalek wmlscript: 5eb1e9e | fperrad++ | src/runtime/wmlslang.pir:
23:48 dalek wmlscript: load_bytecode PBC libraries instead of PIR
23:48 dalek wmlscript: need to use root namespace (begining with parrot)
23:48 dalek wmlscript: review: http://github.com/fperrad/wmlscript/commit​/5eb1e9e72527621c708e153ea34fd41725651328
23:48 cotto Does anyone else pronounce PGE as "piggy"?
23:52 kid51 pmichaud:  You should now have 3 additional RTs.
23:55 * Whiteknight is moving over to win64 to do some final pre-release tests and update PLATFORMS
23:56 pmichaud kid51++ # thanks
23:56 pmichaud (I think :-)

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