Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2009-09-22

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 Whiteknight joined #parrot
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00:12 darbelo Whiteknight: ping
00:14 Whiteknight darbelo
00:14 Whiteknight pong
00:15 darbelo Do you still think the next_for_GC pointer should die?
00:18 darbelo From what I can see in the GC code it's used to keep a sort of 'priority list' for destruction, but that's basically invalidated by the way the list is handled.
00:20 darbelo Everything is just blindly pushed to the front, without really caring about 'priority'.
00:23 * darbelo feels the warnock.
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00:30 Whiteknight darbelo: no, the comments are lying. next_for_GC *is* the GC marking mechanism right now
00:30 purl okay, Whiteknight.
00:30 Whiteknight it's not a priority thing
00:30 Whiteknight (sorry about the warnock, watching the season premier of House)
00:31 japhb It works!  RAWK.  Now for cleanup and tweak ....
00:32 darbelo Damned misleading comments!
00:33 Zak joined #parrot
00:35 Coke RT: 181
00:35 darbelo Coke++
00:39 Whiteknight that damned GC
00:39 purl rumour has it GC is the boehm conservative garbage collector at http://reality.sgi.com/boehm/cg.html or a really really bad perl "programmer" or GrandCentral.com or branches/gsoc_pdd09 or a travesty against god
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00:41 japhb Any Win32 people about?
00:42 japhb What is the result of parrot_config osname on Windows?
00:43 darbelo mswin32 from what I can see in the Configure code
00:44 japhb darbelo, thank you
00:45 darbelo but I wouldn't rely on case, since I see a /mswin32/i there.
00:46 japhb ew
00:46 japhb Well, one battle at a time
00:47 darbelo maybe it's just an overly paranoid check.
00:49 Whiteknight you can never be too paranoid
00:50 Whiteknight well, maybe not "never"
00:52 darbelo "It is as bad as you think and they are out to get you"
00:53 Whiteknight it's worse
00:55 * darbelo goes on the hunt for foods.
00:55 darbelo See y'all later.
00:55 darbelo left #parrot
00:56 Whiteknight me too
00:56 Whiteknight later
01:11 japhb Tene, darbelo, pmichaud, Austin: Configure.nqp etc. pushed to http://gitorious.org/parrot-plum​age/parrot-plumage/trees/master
01:13 japhb I think I'm getting a lock on "Most NQP code that doesn't implement grammar actions"
01:13 japhb And on that note, time to take a short break.
01:13 dalek close: r117 | Austin++ | trunk/include (4 files):
01:14 dalek close: Added some include files
01:14 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=117
01:14 dalek close: r118 | Austin++ | trunk/ (33 files):
01:14 dalek close: Updated configurability. Added some utility classes.
01:14 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=118
01:26 dalek close: r119 | Austin++ | trunk/ (50 files):
01:26 dalek close: .pm -> .nqp renaming
01:26 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=119
01:35 dalek close: r120 | Austin++ | trunk/src/parser/ (2 files):
01:35 dalek close: Renamed actions -> grammar_actions
01:35 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=120
01:43 dalek tracwiki: v22 | jimmy++ | GitObjections
01:43 dalek tracwiki: add TortoiseGit
01:43 dalek tracwiki: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Gi​tObjections?version=22&action=diff
01:45 JimmyZ joined #parrot
01:46 JimmyZ TortoiseGit is the coolest Interface to (Git) Version Control
01:46 JimmyZ TortoiseGit?
01:46 purl TortoiseGit is http://code.google.com/p/tortoisegit/
01:47 Tene i've heard the name several times, but never any real mention of what it actually is.
01:47 * Tene follows link.
01:48 Tene I really can't see myself using an interface like that.  I guess it's not for me.  :)
01:48 JimmyZ purl: no,  TortoiseGit is the coolest Interface to (Git) Version Control and porting TortoiseSVN to TortoiseGit, http://code.google.com/p/tortoisegit/
01:48 purl okay, JimmyZ.
01:48 JimmyZ Tene: just like TortoiseSVN, but for Git
01:49 JimmyZ TortoiseGit?
01:49 purl rumour has it TortoiseGit is the coolest Interface to (Git) Version Control and porting TortoiseSVN to TortoiseGit, http://code.google.com/p/tortoisegit/
01:49 Tene Yeah, I've never used TortoiseSVN.
01:49 cotto TortoiseSVN isn't bad if you're stuck on windows.
01:50 JimmyZ purl: no, TortoiseGit is the coolest Interface to (Git) Version Control and porting TortoiseSVN to TortoiseGit, see http://code.google.com/p/tortoisegit/ for more.
01:50 purl okay, JimmyZ.
01:50 JimmyZ TortoiseGit?
01:50 purl hmmm... TortoiseGit is the coolest Interface to (Git) Version Control and porting TortoiseSVN to TortoiseGit, see http://code.google.com/p/tortoisegit/ for more.
01:53 dalek rakudo: 5d3d3a3 | pmichaud++ | Configure.pl:
01:53 dalek rakudo: Add --optimize to default --gen-parrot build.
01:53 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​d3d3a359061c922ef7080ba9b53e7bd224e6397
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02:30 kid51 Is it just me ... or does 'make test' seem to be running faster than last week at this time?
02:31 kid51 msg darbelo Refactored code within auto::frames::runstep so as to increase testability in t/steps/auto/frames-01.t; cf r41402.
02:31 purl Message for darbelo stored.
02:33 dalek parrot: r41402 | jkeenan++ | trunk (2 files):
02:33 dalek parrot: Refactor some code within runstep() into internal sub
02:33 dalek parrot: _call_frames_buildable(), then test all its branches and conditions.  Remove
02:33 dalek parrot: import statements not needed (yet) in this package.
02:33 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41402/
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02:46 * Austin sings ... so here we are, in the Tijuana jail ...
02:50 dukeleto_ Austin: damn, you must be having a crazier night than mee
02:50 dukeleto_ me, even
02:51 Austin Duke: "refactoring" is a clever term for "I bet you wish you were smarter."
02:51 Austin I've been refactoring for some time now.
02:53 rg joined #parrot
02:53 dukeleto Austin: throw in some beer and it sounds like a party
02:53 japhb msg darbelo Configure.nqp etc. pushed to http://gitorious.org/parrot-plum​age/parrot-plumage/trees/master
02:53 purl Message for darbelo stored.
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02:54 Austin Hmm.. isn't there a "Ballmer number" in there somewhere?
02:54 japhb Ballmer number?
02:54 Austin Ahh, the "Ballmer peak"
02:54 Austin http://xkcd.com/323/
03:07 Austin Woo-hoo! It works.
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03:34 Austin Stupid programmer.
03:35 dukeleto PEBCAK
03:35 Austin Yep.
03:35 Austin Grammar said "HLL".  Grammar should have said, "<.HLL>"
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03:58 ysth threw up some parrot packages for ubuntu hardy, intrepid, jaunty, and karmic: https://launchpad.net/~sth​oenna/+archive/parrot-ysth
03:59 ysth was going to do rakudo, but that needs parrot_config to be included in one of the parrot packages to build.  I'm assuming that would be parrot-devel?
03:59 dukeleto ysth: are you asking if parrot_config is only installed with parrot-devel?
04:00 ysth parrot_config is not installed at all, at least in any of Allison's divisions of packages.  I am asking if parrot-devel is the one it belongs in.
04:01 ysth thanks to Allison for doing the hard part of debianizing, by the way.
04:01 ysth I even went to file a bug to add Artistic 2.0 to base-files common licenses and saw she'd beat me to it.
04:02 ysth though it is mired in the bureaucracy of debian policy :(
04:05 dukeleto ysth: parrot_config seems to get installed for me
04:19 ysth not in the parrot packages
04:19 ysth err, debian packages
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04:20 dukeleto ysth: hmm, i don't know squat about the debian packages. sorry.
04:20 ysth no, wait.  it is there in Allison's packages; it must be something I did wrong?
04:20 purl okay, ysth.
04:20 ysth thanks, purl
04:20 purl sure thing ysth
04:20 dukeleto purl, go play in traffic
04:20 * purl wanders off to dent some cars.
04:22 ysth maybe my vision is just failing.  oh well, sorry for the noise
04:23 dukeleto ysth: no worries. I have a debian box at home that I can test stuff on if you need
04:23 dukeleto ysth: but my main dev boxes for parrot are os x and freebsd
04:25 ysth is it normal for parrot_config to include a build dir path in libparrot_linkflags?
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05:21 cotto anyone know if allison's going to be as #ps tomorrow?
05:21 dukeleto cotto: i think she said she would be traveling
05:22 dukeleto but that was at the last #ps. things could have changed
05:23 chromatic She's at Linux Con, so she may or may not be present.
05:24 chromatic I'm at Linux Con, so I may or may not be present.
05:25 dalek close: r121 | Austin++ | trunk/ (14 files):
05:25 dalek close: Added Config.nqp to library for getting config data.
05:25 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=121
05:25 bacek_at_work And I'm in Australia. So I will not be present on #ps or Linux Con.
05:25 bacek_at_work sigh...
05:27 cotto bacek_at_work, I finally have some time to try out that pprof2cg optimization you suggested.
05:28 bacek_at_work cotto: that's good.
05:30 dukeleto chromatic: is there someone designated to precede over #ps in your and allison's absence?
05:31 Austin * precede -> preside ?
05:31 dukeleto Austin: yes please and thank you
05:31 * dukeleto blames beer for any grammatical shenanigans
05:33 cotto I feel silly.  I didn't think to use Devel::NYTProf on pprof2cg until just now.
05:34 chromatic dukeleto, not formally but if someone wants to, feel free.
05:35 cotto by default, it's the first person who asks who's leading
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05:47 dukeleto cotto: good to know
05:48 * dukeleto is diving down a wiki hole
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06:01 cotto dukeleto, you can conveniently get around it by asking who's going to ask who's leading.
06:02 dukeleto cotto: that was the plan ;)
06:02 cotto what's the typical overhead for Devel::NYTProf?
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06:08 dalek close: r122 | Austin++ | trunk/library/close/Compiler/Messages.nqp:
06:08 dalek close: Fixed up error-message formatting
06:08 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=122
06:08 dalek close: r123 | Austin++ | trunk/src/parser/ (4 files):
06:08 dalek close: Cleaned up include-directive parsing
06:08 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=123
06:08 dalek close: r124 | Austin++ | trunk/library:
06:08 dalek close: Updated svn:ignore
06:09 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=124
06:12 TiMBuS cotto, from what i recall from one of the presentations it was like 2-4x slower.
06:15 cotto looks more like 13x, but that wasn't carefully controlled.
06:15 TiMBuS ouch
06:17 cotto meh
06:17 TiMBuS i guess it depends on the cpu, since the overhead is probably just a delay per op
06:18 TiMBuS are you worried about the speed?
06:18 cotto not very much.  I just care about eventually getting the profile, which I now have.
06:18 TiMBuS ah
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06:21 cotto I'm surprised how poor the documentation on the C and C++ parts of GCSpy are.
06:25 cotto oic.  It's got some examples of how to use the api.
06:30 cotto and now that I've got the profile, it's time for bed.
06:30 cotto zzzzzzzzz
06:36 Austin What does the "DEVEL" config option signify?
06:40 dalek close: r125 | Austin++ | trunk/ (3 files):
06:40 dalek close: Moved String.nqp up in library tree
06:40 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=125
06:50 dalek close: r126 | Austin++ | trunk/library/Config.nqp:
06:50 dalek close: Normalized library/Config.nqp
06:50 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=126
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07:04 japhb http://use.perl.org/~geoffrey/journal/39663
07:08 dalek rakudo: e52ed31 | moritz++ | src/setting/Rat.pm:
07:08 dalek rakudo: .pred and .succ for Rat
07:08 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​52ed31e2fe1ab2fd4a661ebeda78a880bad1215
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09:46 Austin Bravo, japhb. Had I known you needed helper functions, I'd have pointed you at the close codebase. But I don't have anything like subst, and yours is definitely nicer than anything I'd have written.
10:11 dalek parrot: r41403 | mikehh++ | trunk/config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
10:11 dalek parrot: fix some build and clean problems with make cover
10:11 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41403/
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10:23 dalek parrot: r41404 | bacek++ | trunk (3 files):
10:23 dalek parrot: [core] Proper fix for TT#1009 made after NotFound++ version
10:23 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41404/
10:24 Ron joined #parrot
10:45 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, smoke, nqp_test, fulltest) at r41403 - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64
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10:57 dalek close: r127 | Austin++ | trunk/ (13 files):
10:57 dalek close: Got cross-namespace symbols resolving
10:58 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=127
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11:07 dalek parrot: r41405 | bacek++ | trunk/src/pmc/continuation.pmc:
11:07 dalek parrot: [cage] Fix linelength codestd test
11:07 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41405/
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11:14 mikehh bacek: beat me to it :-}
11:14 bacek mikehh: :)
11:15 mikehh bacek: I did rerun codetest and test
11:15 * bacek stealing karma from NotFound++ and mikehh++ :)
11:16 mikehh bacek: I am messing around with make cover at the moment - I think we need to run a basic make test as well as the rest as too many tests are not run
11:18 mikehh bacek: I also think that we need to apply that to fulltest as well
11:20 bacek "make cover" is just veeery slow. And not applicable to optimised builds.
11:21 bacek s/And.*$//
11:21 mikehh bacek: :-} - it takes me about an hour to run - but it is missing library and compiler tests and debugger
11:23 mikehh bacek: in the non-optimised build the core-tests are the same as testb are they not?
11:23 bacek mikehh: no idea...
11:23 purl i heard no idea was http://jays.net/images/noidea.jpg
11:24 bacek mikehh: you can add explicit "cover-test" into Makefile
11:25 nopaste "bacek" at 114.73.160.179 pasted "Makefile patch for mikehh++" (23 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/18021
11:26 bacek mikehh: with patch it should be same
11:26 bacek Don't forget to run Configure.pl :
11:26 bacek :)
11:27 mikehh bacek: yeah - that is what I am testing now
11:28 mikehh I think I may have to modify the COVER_DIRs
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11:37 Whiteknight good morning Parrot
11:41 Austin good morning, andrew
11:42 Whiteknight hello Austin
11:42 Whiteknight you've been on here bright and early the last few days
11:42 Austin http://close-parrot.blogspot.com/
11:42 Austin I've been on overnight. I'll tootle off to bed in a few hours.
11:47 bacek Good evening Whiteknight
11:47 Whiteknight good morning bacek
11:47 bacek clock?
11:47 purl bacek: LAX: Tue 4:47am PDT / CHI: Tue 6:47am CDT / NYC: Tue 7:47am EDT / LON: Tue 12:47pm BST / BER: Tue 1:47pm CEST / IND: Tue 5:17pm IST / TOK: Tue 8:47pm JST / SYD: Tue 9:47pm EST /
11:47 bacek Evening! :)
11:48 Whiteknight Austin: very cool
11:48 mikehh well afternoon for me :-}
11:50 Austin And now I'm stuck in "no simple way to do that"-sville.
11:52 Austin I need to automatically create a "void () :init :load {...}" sub for my namespaces. It'd almost be easier to create a string and recursively parse it.
11:57 Whiteknight be careful, that path is frought with evil and fail
11:58 Austin I'm not sure it is. Right now, it seems pretty easy - just lie about being inside an include file, and away I go.
11:58 Whiteknight ok
12:10 Whiteknight how is Close doing now? Get any of your bugs fixed? is it ready for testing?
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12:13 Austin Close is doing pretty good. The blog post I just made reflects a *lot* of progress in the innards. Right now I've got a couple of the original test cases working, and I believe that most of the old test cases will fall out pretty quickly. I'm working on the generation-ordering issue today, and it's a straight-line problem, so it'll be done today. Close will probably be back to 0.1 functionality in
12:13 Austin 2-3 days.
12:15 Whiteknight awesome
12:16 Austin Actually, it is pretty cool.
12:16 dalek parrot: r41406 | jkeenan++ | trunk/t/steps/auto/frames-01.t:
12:16 dalek parrot: Test all branches in internal sub _handle_exec_protect().
12:16 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41406/
12:16 Austin The new innardz mean that tree-rewriting stuff, which was destroying me before, is a snap.
12:16 Whiteknight okay, how do I build it. It's saying it can't find parrot_config
12:17 Austin What is?
12:17 Whiteknight Configure.pl
12:17 Austin I have no idea.
12:17 Whiteknight do I need to install parrot?
12:17 Austin Apparently, I have parrot_config and you don't?
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12:17 Austin I have an installed parrot, if that matters.
12:17 Whiteknight okay, let me try thtat
12:18 Whiteknight actually, looking at the Configure.pl source, I think I can write --parrot_config=..
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12:20 Whiteknight nope, need to install it
12:20 Austin Did you see jonathan's Configure.nqp post?
12:20 Whiteknight no
12:22 Austin http://gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/par​rot-plumage/blobs/master/Configure.nqp
12:23 Austin Maybe not jonathan.
12:24 Austin Right. Geoffrey, aka japhb
12:24 Austin The j's got me.
12:24 Austin http://use.perl.org/~geoffrey/journal/
12:25 Whiteknight some of this Close syntax looks like really old C
12:25 Whiteknight like pre-ANSI C
12:25 Austin Could be. What are you looking at?
12:26 Whiteknight right now I'm looking a test.clo
12:26 Austin If it has lots of externs in it, it's from a very early version of the language, where storage classes were mandatory
12:26 Whiteknight mostly looking at how the parameters are defined after the ()
12:26 Austin Well, that's defunct.
12:27 Whiteknight oh really? Is there something more recent I can look at?
12:27 Austin t/language/*
12:31 Whiteknight nice
12:31 Whiteknight it really is just a better way to write PIR
12:32 Whiteknight if the runtime libraries stay small enough and optional to load, it will easily replace all my PIR work
12:32 tetragon joined #parrot
12:33 Austin Actually, the runtime libraries will probably grow a lot. For some value of runtime libraries.
12:33 Austin But like C, they'll be selectable.
12:33 Austin -lregex, or whatever
12:34 Whiteknight gotcha
12:34 Whiteknight and that's fine too
12:35 Austin You have any ideas on how to do function inlining?
12:37 kj joined #parrot
12:38 Whiteknight Austin: a few
12:38 Austin I'd love to hear 'em.
12:38 Whiteknight I don't have time today, but we should definitely chat about it soon
12:39 Whiteknight I actually have to start getting ready now, have a funeral to go to at noon
12:39 Austin Yow!
12:39 purl Will the third world war keep "Bosom Buddies" off the air?
12:39 Austin I'm sorry to hear that.
12:39 Austin I hope it's not yours.
12:39 Whiteknight no, I'm not dead yet
12:39 Austin That's what they all say.
12:40 Whiteknight seems a little redundant, if they're saying anything at all
12:40 Whiteknight okay, I'm out of here. I'll talk with you later.
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13:53 NotFound bacek++ good fix to my fix
14:04 dalek TT #1057 created by NotFound++: Rename non static list functions
14:05 dalek parrot: r41407 | mikehh++ | trunk/config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
14:05 dalek parrot: add test to make cover and clean cleanups
14:05 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41407/
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15:03 * Coke ponders writing a patch for rakudo and sees that it was just a stale ticket.
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15:22 Coke Andy: ping.
15:23 Andy tessir
15:23 Andy yessir
15:23 Coke question about ASSERT_ARGS
15:23 Coke e.g. on Parrot_on_exit, we assert_args there; but the assertion is for the interp  OR the function; shouldn't that be an AND?
15:24 Andy uh
15:24 Andy looking
15:24 Coke I can nopaste the bits I'm looking at.
15:25 Andy holy shit
15:25 purl only in the Vatican, my friend.
15:25 Andy you are right.
15:25 Coke I think that explains the few --optimize failures we've been seeing.
15:25 Andy ok
15:26 Andy And probably many undef checks
15:26 Andy rather
15:26 Andy many warnings that something's not going to get executed
15:26 Coke I'm happy to let you patch it. =-)
15:26 Andy I didn't write ASSERT_ARGS et al
15:26 Andy but I'm horrified I didn't notice
15:26 Coke ah.
15:27 Coke I think I see it in headerizer.pl ... testing...
15:27 Andy ok
15:28 Coke that's a few tickets I don't have to port over. :)
15:30 Coke (running make test now. will commit when it finishes)
15:30 Coke Andy++
15:30 Andy I didn't do anything.
15:31 Andy I wonder what the splint will look like now
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15:34 Andy make test passed for me with the one change in that one line the headerizer: s/\Q||/&&/
15:38 Andy Coke: I'm out of this, then, unless you need something lese.
15:44 Coke Andy: yup. Thanks for the sanity check!
15:44 Coke commit landing shortly.
15:44 Coke (big commit)
15:45 Coke Andy++ #sanity
15:45 Andy I try to provide what sanity I can. :-)
15:46 chromatic I wonder what that will do to optimized builds....
15:46 Coke I just built optimized.
15:46 Coke but I've been doing that for some time.
15:47 Coke that had to have been the original intent of assert_args, so I'll hope, "the right thing". =-)
15:47 dalek parrot: r41408 | coke++ | trunk/tools/build/headerizer.pl:
15:47 Coke dalek?
15:47 purl i guess dalek is #parrot's spammy little rss bot or (see: dalek plugins)
15:48 dalek parrot: When ASSERTing args, ASSERT *ALL* of them, not *ANY* of them.
15:48 dalek parrot: Hopefully this will help deal with some long standing issues relating
15:48 dalek parrot: to optimization, and perhaps some of Andy++'s splint warnings.
15:48 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41408/
15:48 dalek parrot: r41409 | coke++ | trunk (118 files):
15:48 dalek parrot: rerun make headerizer
15:48 dalek parrot: This should run ALL the ASSERT_ARG checks now, instead of SOME of them.
15:48 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41409/
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15:58 * Coke waits for the bug reports to flow in.
16:03 quek joined #parrot
16:25 cotto_work cil?
16:25 purl cil is probably the .NET assembly language.
16:25 cotto_work cil is also C Intermediate Language or http://hal.cs.berkeley.edu/cil/
16:25 purl okay, cotto_work.
16:25 cotto_work anyone seen that?
16:27 flh joined #parrot
16:32 dalek rakudo: 84981fd | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
16:32 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 436 files, 15498 (71.4% of 21695) pass, 0 fail
16:32 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​4981fd4cef43d11542e330d50383b04305c627a
16:33 bluescreen joined #parrot
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16:51 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, smoke, nqp_test, fulltest) at r41409 - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64
16:53 theory joined #parrot
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17:00 smash joined #parrot
17:00 smash hello everyone
17:01 everyone hello smash
17:01 theory joined #parrot
17:02 Coke smash++
17:02 Coke hulk?
17:02 purl Hulk SMASH!!!
17:02 Coke mmm.
17:04 slavorg joined #parrot
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17:10 smash Coke: every ticket i own on RT is either resolved or rejected
17:12 smash do u want me to do anything with them ?
17:18 Coke smash: no. only open tickets matter.
17:19 Coke but, if you want to clean up a dozen more, I'd appreciate it! =-)
17:19 Coke RT: 179
17:28 theory joined #parrot
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17:37 dalek TT #1009 closed by darbelo++: examples/shootout/spectralnorm.pir shows a segfault in the continuation ...
17:38 chromatic joined #parrot
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17:49 dalek tracwiki: v23 | fperrad++ | GitObjections
17:49 dalek tracwiki: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Gi​tObjections?version=23&amp;action=diff
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18:14 dukelet0 ps?
18:14 purl ps is postscript or process status or see "parrotsketch" or non-vector?! or annoying.
18:14 chromatic 17 minutes.
18:14 dukelet0 chromatic: danke
18:14 dukelet0 chromatic: how is linuxcon?
18:15 chromatic Quiet this morning.  I'm about to go into another session; we'll see how interesting it is!
18:15 dukelet0 chromatic: will you be at #ps?
18:16 chromatic I'll do my best.
18:20 chromatic joined #parrot
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18:28 Util mikehh: you reported that you intend to "get fulltest to run all tests". Which tests are not running in fulltest?
18:28 dalek parrot: r41410 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/pmc/exception.t:
18:28 dalek parrot: [t] add 2 Exception tests to cover init_pmc
18:28 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41410/
18:29 mikehh Util: nqp_test, library tests and most compiler tests
18:29 Util mikehh: ok, thanks
18:29 mikehh time for #ps
18:51 darbelo dukeleto++ # Documenting the heck out of the debugger
18:52 zak_ joined #parrot
18:57 kyle in what namespace would I find a perl6 global sub?
18:58 pmichaud depends on what you mean by "global"  :-)
18:58 pmichaud by default things start out in the CORE::GLOBAL namespace
18:58 kyle ok, yeah, I'm just writing "sub foo{}", not inside a package or anything.
18:59 TimToady note that that declaration will likely default to "my" in Perl 6
18:59 TimToady and also that normal sub dispatch never looks in packages anymore
18:59 TimToady (NYI in rkudo)
19:00 kyle alright
19:06 darbelo NotFound: ping me if you need any help setting google code up.
19:06 purl I can't find me in the DNS.
19:06 NotFound darbelo: thanks
19:13 darbelo karma kill
19:13 purl kill has karma of 6
19:13 darbelo karma obliterate
19:13 purl obliterate has neutral karma
19:13 darbelo karma exterminate
19:13 purl exterminate has karma of 1
19:17 ruoso joined #parrot
19:18 darbelo dukeleto, dukelet0: ping
19:24 kyle if I'm writing PIR, how do I lookup my p6 sub "foo"?  something like get_hll_global ["CORE";"GLOBAL"], "foo" ?  (that is returning a null pmc)
19:25 Tene kyle: get_hll_global 'foo'
19:34 kyle Tene, thanks
19:37 theory joined #parrot
19:43 Tene japhb: You have information for me on what needs to happen to get DB stuff in plumage yet, or do I need to just read the source?
19:43 japhb Tene:  Will you be around for a little bit?  I'm mentally in the middle of something, but I should be wrapped up in :05-:15
19:44 Tene japhb: I should be around on and off for at least four hours.
19:44 japhb Excellent, thanks.
19:47 fperrad ping, dukeleto
19:51 dukelet0 fperrad: pong
19:52 fperrad duketel0, in Blizkost, I create a branch load_language
19:52 fperrad tests pass, but with a non zero exit status
19:52 fperrad could you take a look ?
19:52 japhb Tene:OK, near as I can manage, you have my full attention.  What can I do for you?
19:52 nopaste "darbelo" at 200.49.154.173 pasted "t/tools/parrot_debugger.t failure on OpenBSD i386" (29 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/18030
19:53 darbelo dukeleto: ping
19:53 bacek joined #parrot
19:53 Tene japhb: I want to put DB libraries in PIR somewhere they can be useful.  AFAICT, plumage is supposed to become part of that.
19:54 japhb Tene: Plumage will be used to fetch, build, and install modules into Parrot.  I'm very much thinking that
19:54 japhb where it pulls the source from doesn't matter.  In other words,
19:55 * Tene agrees so far.
19:55 japhb As long as the metadata points to a live URI, and Plumage has been taught about the URI scheme in question (git:, svn:, ftp:, what have you), it should Just Work.
19:55 darbelo japhb: you are reinventing the BSD ports system, right?
19:56 theory joined #parrot
19:56 japhb darbelo, I'm reinventing a bunch of things like it, yes.
19:56 dukelet0 fperrad: will check it out
19:56 Tene japhb: So I need to work out how the files shoudl be arranged in the repo and what the metadata should contain, yes?
19:56 darbelo The basic: Automated "fetch source, build, install" workflow.
19:57 japhb darbelo, hopefully I will have something to add to the mix, but at the very least, we will eventually have a ports system that depends in the core only on Parrot-provided functionality.
19:57 japhb darbelo, sure.
19:57 japhb There's more to it than that, but yes, that's the basics.
19:57 darbelo I wasn't being pejorative, I'm all for what you are doing. Just trying to map it to something I know.
19:58 japhb Tene, a week ago I started roughing out the metadata for Blizkost, but since I haven't actually gotten to the point of being able to do the install, I don't know if it's good enough.
19:58 japhb But you can look at it to see where I'm coming from.
19:58 Tene japhb: that would be great.
19:58 japhb (I already have a couple ideas for improvements, but nothing we can't talk through.)
19:59 Tene ah, metadata/blizkost.json
19:59 Tene What can plumage do so far?
19:59 japhb Tene: Look in ... yep, that one.
20:00 japhb Tene, it builds successfully into a fakecutable, which knows a couple simple help commands, plus 'info', a command which just dumps the metadata for a given project.
20:01 japhb Adding the 'fetch', 'build', and 'install' commands was literally the next day I had planned ....
20:01 japhb ... until you changed that plan yesterday.
20:01 japhb :-)
20:01 Tene :)
20:01 Tene Are you planning to just have it install to wherever it wants, or have plumage pass an install prefix?
20:01 japhb Part of the deal with doing this all in NQP and PIR is that it's like a rocket taking off.  The first few stages expend tremendous effort without seeming to get very far.
20:02 Tene Yes, understandably. :)
20:02 darbelo japhb: What are your plans for 'fetch' call an external tool?
20:03 Tene So, looks like plumage needs more work before it can be useful here, so now I'm going to ask for you to give me a plumage task to work on tonight.
20:03 japhb Tene, yes, Plumage will try to pass configuration information during Configure/build phases.  But that's not something I'd planned on my next hack day.
20:04 chromatic joined #parrot
20:04 japhb darbelo, for now, yes.  The draft spec states that the metadata must list all external tools required.  Including the fetch tool.
20:04 japhb That may be something I can relax later, but for now, it seems wise to be specific.
20:05 japhb Tene, OK.  Give me a couple minutes to think.
20:05 Tene japhb: no pressure.  I'm still at $dayjob for another few hours. :)
20:05 darbelo Sounds good for the 'grab a snapshot out of my VCS' case, but you might want to leave some slack in the generic http/ftp tool.
20:06 Tene darbelo: 'http' could be considered a "fetch tool", in the worst case. :)
20:07 darbelo Yeah, but it means a call to a different executable on just about every platform.
20:07 NotFound japhb: the MySql module right now will just need to put the .pir file in his place and compile it to .pbc
20:08 NotFound No need to complicated build or configure stages.
20:09 japhb darbelo, that bridge was already crossed with the name of 'make'.  You're specifying a virtual package name.  'git' would be answered by 'git-core' on some platforms, and 'make' by 'gmake' on others, for instance.
20:09 japhb (That bit has not been made explicit in the spec, it was still in my head, sigh.  ENOTENOUGHHOURS.)
20:10 darbelo japhb++
20:11 japhb NotFound, I thought of that case.  Basically empty stages specified in the metadata, and install phase is a manifest-based install
20:12 NotFound japhb: also, it may be the easier module to check basic functionality.
20:13 japhb NotFound: on phone for a minute, brb
20:13 NotFound NP
20:14 Coke fperrad: at a guess, use an explicit 'exit'
20:15 Zak joined #parrot
20:15 dalek parrot: r41411 | NotFound++ | trunk (3 files):
20:15 dalek parrot: [core] rename list_delete and list_length functions, TT #1057
20:15 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41411/
20:22 dalek parrot: r41412 | NotFound++ | trunk/examples/nci/mysqltest.pir:
20:23 dalek parrot: [examples] unskip the test of MySql prepare
20:23 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41412/
20:26 japhb Yipes.
20:27 japhb NotFound, OK, bak.  Now what were you saying again?
20:27 dalek parrot: r41413 | darbelo++ | failed to fetch changeset:
20:27 dalek parrot: Remove a duplicated ASSERT_ARGS()
20:27 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41413/
20:28 NotFound japhb: I'm thnking about using the MySql module as a simple module to check plumage basic functionality
20:28 Tene NotFound: can you find out about getting a /modules on svn.parrot.org ?
20:28 japhb NotFound, oh yes, right.  Gotcha.
20:29 NotFound Tene: I'll try to set up an svn repo at googlecode
20:29 Tene Okay.
20:29 japhb commit bits for the parrot-plumage repo freely given
20:29 Tene japhb: please add 'tene'
20:30 NotFound japhb: What can I do to make that easy? Some directory structure?
20:30 japhb .oO( "You see?  You ask for help, and what does it get you?  Help, that's what." )
20:30 Tene NotFound: I assume that basic PIR modules will be pretty easy... just manifest-based install.
20:31 Tene so once we figure out where to install to, and the manifest format, we'll just adjust the repo accordingly
20:31 darbelo manifest-based?
20:31 japhb NotFound, yeah, having a MANIFEST and a json file of metadata would be a good start
20:31 darbelo Who maintains the manifest? plumage or the module?
20:32 Tene ideally, either.
20:32 Tene either give a path in the fetched repository or inline it in the plumage metadata, IMO
20:33 japhb darbelo, I've been of the opinion (and some have disagreed) that Plumage ought to be able to make the easy case easy by providing a builtin "build/install" for something that just needs files copied into place (optionally with compiling PIR down to PBC or suchlike)
20:33 japhb And what Tene just said.
20:33 NotFound Some idea for a name? parrotmysql? mysqlparrot?
20:33 japhb parrot-mysql
20:33 Tene japhb: people disagree with that? o.O
20:33 darbelo decnum-dynpmcs has nothing like a manifest, it simply shuffles files about. Is that a supported operating mode?
20:34 japhb parrot-foo seems a good convention for things that don't have an overriding project name (like 'partcl')
20:34 bluescreen joined #parrot
20:34 japhb Tene: Among others, ISTR the #toolchain folks thought it was ... less than wise.
20:34 japhb I didn't agree.
20:34 Tene Huh.  Any idea what their reasons were?
20:35 japhb Honestly, I'm afraid I've forgotten.  It was in the middle of a large discussion.
20:35 Tene s'okay
20:35 Tene I can dig.
20:35 Tene if I care enough. ;)
20:35 NotFound Just created http://code.google.com/p/parrot-mysql/
20:36 japhb darbelo, probably just put the proper shuffles in the metadata, or create a MANIFEST and do it that way.
20:36 japhb Oh!  Speaking of this general topic, I had a question for the interested parties:
20:36 Tene Lime green.
20:36 japhb Many package/ports-style systems ...
20:36 Tene Oh, I'll wait for the question first...
20:36 japhb ... *chuckle* ...
20:36 dukelet0 msg fperrad "make test" passes on feather in your blizkost "load_language" branch
20:36 purl Message for fperrad stored.
20:37 japhb ... have a standard way to apply a patch against the upstream source between the fetch and configure/build stages.
20:37 bacek Good morning
20:37 purl And good moroning to you, bacek.
20:37 Tene I think that's great.
20:37 japhb I think that's useful, but I'm not sure it's useful *yet*.  Might help with portability.  (System-specific patches, that sort of thing.)
20:37 darbelo Ah, yes, the good ol' patches/
20:38 Tene Also nice for generating srpms with patches separate from original source.
20:38 japhb Anyway, was looking for a little feedback on whether to have that in the design.
20:38 japhb Sounds like a +1 from Tene
20:38 Tene +1, yes
20:38 darbelo +1
20:38 purl 1
20:38 * darbelo kicks purl
20:38 * purl bites darbelo!
20:39 cotto_work rebootening tiem
20:41 kjeldahl joined #parrot
20:41 darbelo japhb: You don't need to have it *working* right away, but it's very helpful.
20:42 Tene Yes, it's very much not urgent at all, but should come in eventually.
20:44 japhb Just added to TODO, committing ...
20:44 japhb ... done
20:44 pmichaud "rough consensus and working code"
20:44 japhb Task for anyone:  Get dalek to speak Gitorious.
20:45 japhb I will do it eventually if no one else does, but it would be happy making and non-distracting if I didn't have to.
20:45 japhb :-)
20:45 Tene japhb: I'm going to go do some stuff for $realjob... if I could have comments on IRC or email on what I should work on tonight, that would be great.
20:45 Tene AFK
20:48 japhb Tene, will do. later.
20:48 japhb $life just got in the way, AFK for a while.
20:49 cotto_work joined #parrot
20:53 bacek NotFound: ping
20:54 NotFound pong
20:54 bacek NotFound: you renamed list_delete to Parrot_array_delete, not Parrot_pmc_array_delete. Is it intended?
20:54 NotFound Uh... no.
20:54 bacek No worries. I can fix it :)
20:54 NotFound Doing too much things at the same time
20:55 NotFound Thanks :)
20:55 payload joined #parrot
20:55 chromatic joined #parrot
20:57 NotFound A copy of current mysql files in examples is now in http://code.google.com/p/parrot-mysql/
21:03 bacek NotFound: done
21:04 NotFound bacek++
21:04 bacek waiting for svn... sigh...
21:06 * darbelo goes deface the parrot-mysql wiki
21:08 dalek parrot: r41414 | bacek++ | trunk (4 files):
21:08 dalek parrot: [core] Rename list_foo functions into Parrot_pmc_array_foo. Closing TT#1057
21:08 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41414/
21:10 dalek TT #1057 closed by bacek++: Rename non static list functions
21:13 NotFound bacek++ verified that mysqltest.pir keeps working
21:13 bacek NotFound: of course! :)
21:14 NotFound Verifying does not harm ;)
21:15 dalek tracwiki: v1 | NotFound++ | Modules
21:15 dalek tracwiki: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki​/Modules?version=1&amp;action=diff
21:15 dalek tracwiki: v101 | NotFound++ | WikiStart
21:15 dalek tracwiki: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/W​ikiStart?version=101&amp;action=diff
21:18 iblechbot joined #parrot
21:24 dalek parrot: r41415 | bacek++ | trunk/compilers/imcc/imcc.y:
21:24 dalek parrot: [cage] Shut one more compiler warning in IMCC
21:24 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41415/
21:27 joeri left #parrot
21:28 cotto_work bacek, make sure those changes get propagated to the generated files.
21:29 bacek cotto_work: oh shi... I forgot --maintainer in Configure.pl args...
21:33 japhb bak
21:34 japhb Tene: do you have a particular short-term goal you want to achieve, or just "help move things along"?
21:38 Tene japhb: My nearest goal is "Put DB and other simple PIR libraries online and be able to give someone else reasonable instructions to use plumage to install them"
21:39 Tene between here and there... eh, whatever.
21:39 japhb OK, gotcha.
21:39 japhb Just trying out this project management aikido thing ...  :-)
21:40 NotFound I share that same goal
21:40 dalek parrot: r41416 | bacek++ | trunk/compilers/imcc/imcc.y:
21:40 dalek parrot: Revert previous commit. Bison 2.4 (not 2.3) dislike it. cotto++
21:40 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41416/
21:40 mikehh hey bacek - you blew me up there - I tried to build at r41415
21:41 bacek mikehh: bison 2.3 didn't complain about first changeset :-/
21:42 NotFound Being able to get postgres and SQLite out of the repo will be nice.
21:42 pmichaud +1
21:42 purl 1
21:42 davidfetter :/
21:42 davidfetter what happens to them then?
21:43 pmichaud they get their own repos
21:43 davidfetter ah :)
21:43 NotFound davidfetter: the goal is to simplify parrot config, each module taking care of his own needs.
21:43 bacek pmichaud: btw, did you try "git pull --rebase"? It will avoid annoying "merged branch master" commits.
21:43 pmichaud bacek: I'm not annoyed by them.  :)
21:43 davidfetter NotFound, cool :)
21:44 bacek pmichaud: fair enough :)
21:44 pmichaud I've been idly thinking of moving nqp into its own repo as well.
21:45 bacek pmichaud: no!!! I'm going to use it more heavily for parrot-related stuff.
21:45 davidfetter the down side of that is that there's no automatic way to know whether changes in parrot broke stuff elsewhere
21:45 pmichaud bacek: yes, but parrot's deprecation policy is going to be a major break/impediment to nqp devel
21:45 pmichaud s/break/brake/
21:46 bacek sigh...
21:46 pmichaud so if I do nqp devel elsewhere, I don't have to worry about backwards compat, and parrot can pull whichever nqp sources it wants
21:46 NotFound davidfetter: I suppose that we take care of testing modules owned by PAFO
21:47 pmichaud afk # errand
21:47 davidfetter how would that work?
21:48 dalek rakudo: c584dc6 | moritz++ | src/setting/Operators.pm:
21:48 dalek rakudo: remove some duplicate code in infix:<...>
21:48 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​584dc62977b90e7aa7b527a96b4f068661a3ff2
21:48 dalek rakudo: 0220cc2 | moritz++ | src/setting/Operators.pm:
21:48 dalek rakudo: implement infix:<eqv>(Rat, Rat)
21:48 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​220cc22acefd5567c03b562eab3dd06fe53e6d8
21:48 NotFound davidfetter: same as other things, servers setting up to periodically update and launch some tests.
21:49 davidfetter do they notify about breakage in a way that's not going to cause people to pipe them to /dev/null ?
21:50 NotFound davidfetter: we are just starting, that things needs to be done when things are walking.
21:50 davidfetter groovy
21:50 NotFound We need to have a plumage able to download the modules, at least.
21:52 japhb NotFound: I'm currently trying to prep the repo for incoming helpers, because it looks like the time to act is now.
21:53 mikehh bacek: compiling changes compilers/imcc/imcparser.h and compilers/imcc/imcparser.c for me
21:53 * japhb tries not to stress about impending day-job related loss of sleep.
21:53 japhb NotFound, in any case, hopefully you'll have that soon.
21:53 mikehh should I say building
21:55 mikehh svn status is now out of sync
21:55 NotFound japhb: for the MySql module, no urgency, is still very incomplete.
21:56 mikehh I get an svn diff on those files
21:57 NotFound mikehh: note that different versions of bison or lex give slightly different results.
21:57 NotFound Cosmemtic, mostly.
21:59 bacek mikehh: git reset HEAD (or however it's called in svn)
22:02 mikehh I am going to do a clean checkout - but later - I need some sllep
22:03 mikehh as you may notice (sleep)
22:04 mikehh BTW there is a codetest failure (line length (2) in src/list.c - but I can't commit at the moment until I get sorted out
22:05 darbelo mikehh: I'll get it.
22:06 japhb Brain fail: What is the term for a type of test that is exploratory?  The little scripts you write when you just want to see if something is feasible, and generally how you would do it, before you even start on the real prototype?
22:06 darbelo proof of concept?
22:07 darbelo proto-prototype?
22:07 darbelo 1.0?
22:07 purl i heard 1.0 was 1 is true or SOOO 2006 or “Shipping a 1.0 product isn’t going to kill you, but it will try.” http://www.randsinrepose.com​/archives/2006/04/20/10.html or just a version number
22:08 dalek tracwiki: v2 | darbelo++ | Modules
22:08 dalek tracwiki: Added decnum-dynpmcs to the list of modules.
22:08 dalek tracwiki: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki​/Modules?version=2&amp;action=diff
22:08 japhb darbelo, that's close, but I think of that as something used to prove some entire project is doable.  I'm talking about some little piece of it.  Like "How do I do async DNS lookups on this platform" when you're really writing a client app for some protocol.
22:08 mikehh I think you are supposed to run a line renumber thinggy or something
22:09 japhb .oO( Proof of Shaved Yaks )
22:09 mikehh anyway nnl
22:09 mikehh you see my typing has gone to pot - bbl
22:10 japhb .oO( scribbles?  doodles? )
22:10 darbelo throwaway?
22:11 japhb not bad
22:13 darbelo I think that is about as far as my command of the english language can carry me.
22:14 japhb darbelo, no worries, I think we're pretty close.  I just copied my question to #perl6 to see if the linguists had an suggestions.
22:15 darbelo (Asking the natives)++
22:15 japhb :-)
22:23 japhb Tene, 'tene' has been added as a parrot-plumage committer.
22:23 japhb Was there anyone else asking for same, while I'm in that dashboard?
22:25 darbelo me
22:25 japhb same nick?
22:25 darbelo But I'm not on gitorious. So you can get that later.
22:25 japhb Ah, OK
22:26 Austin Speaking of le plumage, I have a vaguely unrelated question.
22:26 japhb heh
22:26 Austin Has there been any thought given (yet) to the installation of parrot extras?
22:26 * japhb blinks
22:26 Austin That is, stuff built on parrot but not part of parrot.
22:27 Austin (Like rakudo, I guess)
22:27 darbelo Austin: the plumage is all about that.
22:27 Austin Yeah.
22:27 Austin And?
22:27 Austin Where do I sign p?
22:27 Austin *p = up
22:27 japhb Austin, I'm not sure I'm understanding your actual question.  Since what you're talking about is a major goal of Plumage ...
22:28 japhb ... ah, OK.
22:28 Austin Right. Is there a manual, or what?
22:28 darbelo or what.
22:28 japhb Hold, fetching URL
22:28 darbelo for now.
22:28 Austin darbelo :)
22:28 japhb Austin, start here: https://trac.parrot.org/pa​rrot/wiki/ModuleEcosystem
22:28 japhb Other than that, read the SHOUTING FILES in the repo.
22:29 japhb speaking of which ...
22:29 purl speaking of which ... is anyone working on dbdi?
22:29 darbelo Which is fetchable with "git clone git://gitorious.org/parrot-​plumage/parrot-plumage.git"
22:30 japhb ... fixed
22:30 japhb (Forgot something in the README.  :-)
22:31 darbelo 'whirpool' development model?
22:32 japhb d'oh!
22:32 Austin I was going to make a "giant ... sucking" joke there, but you beat me to it.
22:33 * darbelo is now on gitorius!
22:33 japhb darbelo, fixed
22:33 japhb Same nick?
22:33 darbelo yeah.
22:34 * darbelo tries to be darbelo everywhere.
22:34 japhb Good on ya.  I couldn't do that for hysterical raisons and nick collisions ....
22:34 ruoso joined #parrot
22:34 * Tene is 'tene' just about everywhere.
22:35 japhb I knight thee "committer", darbelo
22:35 darbelo Any particular rules?
22:36 japhb Just what you see in the README.  Anything not abundantly obvious, just ask.
22:36 japhb Also, since a lot of stuff right now is in my head, you might want to talk with me about your plans before doing the work, at least for the next couple weeks.
22:36 * japhb is suddenly racing to catch up with the interest.
22:37 darbelo Wait. What? I'm expexted to do work?
22:37 japhb Heh.
22:37 japhb If you wish to simple doodle, please create a doodles/ directory to do it in.  ;-)
22:39 japhb Er, simply
22:39 darbelo git doen't handle empty directories :)
22:39 Tene traditionally, you put an empty .gitignore in it.
22:39 japhb What Tene said
22:39 japhb Damn, you guys keep beating me to the punchline.  ;-)
22:41 japhb OK, now the hard part -- figuring out tasks I can break off.
22:41 dukelet0 git tracks content. empty directories have no content. At first this is odd, but it makes lots of sense once you start to love the DAG
22:42 Austin In a few days I guess I'll be a gitorious user..
22:42 dalek parrot: r41417 | pmichaud++ | trunk (3 files):
22:42 dalek parrot: [nqp]:  Create a 'parrot_nqp' fakecutable for installation.
22:42 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41417/
22:42 dalek parrot: r41418 | darbelo++ | trunk/src/list.c:
22:42 dalek parrot: Break too long lines to me codetest happy.
22:42 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41418/
22:43 darbelo dukelet0: Can you give http://nopaste.snit.ch/18030 a look.
22:43 japhb Austin, "In a few days"?
22:43 Austin Whenever the email gets here.
22:43 japhb pmichaud++ # r41417
22:43 japhb Wow, sucky email system.
22:43 darbelo Austin: took just a few seconds for me.
22:43 Austin :)
22:44 Austin Yeah. @yahoo.com is a tough domain to send mail to.
22:45 dukelet0 darbelo: bad test. it doesn't take into account the possibility of negative numbers
22:46 dukelet0 darbelo: the regex should look like 242\s*I0=-?\d+
22:46 Austin In the meantime, let me see if I have this right:
22:47 Austin Plumage is the repo for search tools, etc. And for specs. There will be - but currently is not? - some central repo for metadata, like a maven repository, that tells the plumage tools how to connect to the source(s) for whatever bundle.
22:47 darbelo dukelet0: Yes, but why does it fail only for me?
22:48 japhb Austin, that's a decent description of part of it.
22:48 Austin The metadata should be enough to (1) advertise the stuff; (2) mechanically get the stuff; (3) recursively satisfy dependencies.
22:48 japhb There's also the toolchain, the standards (Oh, I see you mentioned 'specs'), and so on.
22:49 japhb Austin, configure/build/install, and such, yes.
22:49 japhb Basically: Something needs Parrot to run.  How do I find it and get it running?
22:50 japhb Sorry, antecedent fail.
22:50 bacek pmichaud: ping. Can you take a look at TT#389? I salvaged stuff from nsentry branch.
22:50 japhb How do I find the thing I'm looking for, and how do I get it running with Parrot and whatever else it needs?
22:51 Austin Okay, say I write a metadata file. Where shall I put it in my project?
22:51 Austin ./PLUMAGE or ./METADATA (bad) or ./etc/PLUMAGE or ?
22:52 dukelet0 darbelo: the output of the debugger has garbage data in it. The regex usually passes because the garbage data is usually positive. Evidently on the architecture you are testing it, the garbage data is negative and it fails
22:52 japhb Austin, not decided.  But as a quick wack, hmm.  Perhaps ./META.json ?  or ./plumage/META.json ? Especially if we wanted multiple things there.
22:52 dukelet0 darbelo: or, it hates you ;)
22:53 darbelo dukelet0: Is the garbage data intended? I can't tell from the tests.
22:53 Austin I'm thinking ./plumage/Close.json
22:53 japhb Allison also wants to support the use case that a non-committer to a project supplies the metadata to us separately.
22:53 Austin Since you've got "blizkost.json", it seems appropriate to have the file "named right"
22:53 japhb Austin, how does Plumage know the name of the file if it can't read the json yet?
22:53 darbelo Allison++ on that
22:53 japhb Austin, AH!  Different issue.
22:54 Austin japhb: find ./plumage -name '*.json' ?
22:54 dukelet0 darbelo: the debugger prints out the previous value of a register when you trace. if it has not been set, this is garbage data. My regex/test is too strict and requires the garbage data to be positive, since it usually is. But obviously, it can be negative as well.
22:54 japhb That was because what is the metadata/ folder in the repo right now will eventually be data in a server somewhere.  For now, I didn't want name collisions.
22:54 japhb Austin, that assumes only one file in that directory.
22:55 japhb or rather, one json file.
22:55 dukelet0 darbelo: i don't explicitly care about that part of the output, but I care about things after it, so a very loose match in that part is fine
22:55 chromatic joined #parrot
22:55 dukelet0 darbelo: does that make sense?
22:55 dalek parrot: r41419 | bacek++ | branches/nsentry2:
22:55 dalek parrot: Recreate nsentry branch against current trunk
22:55 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41419/
22:55 dalek parrot: r41420 | bacek++ | branches/nsentry2 (17 files):
22:55 dalek parrot: Salvaged stuff for nsentry branch
22:55 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41420/
22:55 darbelo dukelet0: Yeah, I get it now. I'll go add some -?
22:55 Austin Next, how often do I update the file? Is it part of the release cycle (seems likely) or should I point at #HEAD or what?
22:56 bacek Can anyone with svn delete old nsentry branch?
22:56 japhb The only reason it's called blizkost.json now is because plumage is still in the prototyping phase.  :-)
22:56 dukelet0 darbelo: yes, other tests might benefit from that as well
22:56 dukelet0 darbelo: other debugger tests, that is
22:56 japhb Austin, my thought is that we eventually want to support the use case of someone saying:
22:57 japhb plumage install blizkost-5.9
22:57 japhb or
22:57 japhb plumage install blizkost-blead
22:57 japhb or what have you
22:57 Austin Okay.
22:57 darbelo bacek: done.
22:57 Austin What does that mean to me? Will all those revs be in my .json file, or will there be scads of Close.json files in the server someplace?
22:58 japhb Austin, that brought up the idea of having includes or other forms of "inheritance" for metadata files, but that is another undecided.
22:58 Austin Meta-meta-data?
22:58 japhb Austin, I just don't know yet.  You're too far ahead of me to give a definitive answer yet.
22:58 bacek darbelo: thanks!
22:58 japhb More-meta-than-yo-mama-data
22:59 dalek parrot: r41421 | darbelo++ | branches/nsentry:
22:59 dalek parrot: Kill the uinmerged nsentry branch.
22:59 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41421/
22:59 Austin What's an authority?
22:59 purl an authority is as authority does.
22:59 Austin Is that a user, or a repo?
23:00 japhb Austin, "owner" in some sense.  'CPAN:RJBS', for instance.
23:00 rhr joined #parrot
23:00 japhb It's to handle forking properly.
23:00 Austin The one for blizkost is a url.
23:01 japhb Austin, the JSON file for blizkost is only at the sketch stage.  Getting my thoughts on paper so that I could go into my next hack day ready to code a simple fetch/build/install sequence.
23:02 japhb Take nothing as gospel.  ;-)
23:02 japhb This project takes rather more thinking than you would, er, think.
23:02 tetragon joined #parrot
23:02 dalek parrot: r41422 | darbelo++ | trunk/t/tools/parrot_debugger.t:
23:02 dalek parrot: Loosen a few regezes in t/tools/parrot_debugger.t to accept negative numbers.
23:03 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41422/
23:03 Austin :)
23:04 * darbelo has stupid fingers.
23:05 Austin Okay, here's some thoughts.
23:06 Austin 1. Parrot is talking about switching from svn to git. So you should probably associate versions with repositories either as associations, or with a has-a of some kind (inclusion)
23:07 Austin 2. Likewise, hosting providers change, so maybe support for different/alternate ones.
23:07 japhb good so far
23:09 Austin 3. Storing a list of versions is horrible. Better to provide some mechanism for querying available ones.
23:10 japhb Oh, I forgot to explain why an authority could be a URI ... my thought was that anything that uniquely identified a particular source for the source could be considered a valid authority identifier.  Kind of like how OpenID works -- your persona is just a URI.
23:10 Austin 4. But dependency info is version-dependent, which puts everything inside the archive.
23:11 japhb I quibble with #4.  *nix distro packaging systems keep version info outside of the source archive ... in their own package system.
23:12 Austin 5. So you sort of want both worlds - here's a project, ask the sources about versions, versus here's a project-version, with some sources that may have other versions, too.
23:12 japhb nodnod
23:13 darbelo Hmm. "Copyright (C) 2009, Parrot Foundation." Are you going to require a CLA for plumage contributors?
23:13 Austin Yeah, the thing with #4 is one of balance. For distros, it's easy to store metadata externally. But for things like maven repositories, where versions can be 1.0.1, 1.0.2, 1.0.3, etc., it's going to be a lot easier to ask a repo what is provides.
23:14 Austin *what it provides
23:15 japhb darbelo: oh frack, I forgot about that stupid CLA thing.  I was just making sure the eventual merge would not have the most obvious copyright and licensing fail.
23:15 japhb "maven repositories"?
23:16 pmichaud bacek:  (TT #389)  I'm guessing that rakudo doesn't need a whole lot of patching to make it work.  More to the point, what existed in the branch in december is probably not completely relevant to today
23:16 japhb Someone ping a PAFO person about whether I need to enforce CLA on a project that I am gifting to them?
23:16 bacek pmichaud: indeed. But some rakudo patching required.
23:16 japhb pmichaud, you're on the board now, yes?  Do you know the answer to that question?
23:16 chromatic japhb, I think so.
23:16 japhb frak with frak sauce.
23:17 * japhb really wanted to go the audreyt route.
23:17 darbelo So far, I think you are in the clear, your only commiters are also parrot commiters, so no problem there.
23:17 pmichaud japhb: iiuc, any code that makes it into the parrot repo has to have CLAs on all of its contributions
23:17 bacek anyway, $dayjob time
23:17 japhb Hmmm.
23:17 pmichaud I suspect the same would be true for anything that we expect parrot to officially distribute
23:18 japhb OK, well, I'll note that in the README for now, as darbelo is right about not having actually hit the problem yet.
23:18 Austin OTOH, something that's going to distribute parrot ...?
23:18 japhb Austin, not a problem here.  Plumage fully depends on Parrot already being there.
23:18 pmichaud (I'm not entirely in agreement with that policy, but I understand the reasons behind it and I'm not objectionable to it)
23:19 pmichaud something that decides to distribute parrot only has to comply with parrot's license (artistic 2.0)
23:19 japhb Allison brought up that bootstrapping issue, but I'm not convinced yet.
23:19 Austin If you distribute module metadata, what's their coverage?
23:20 Austin Say I provide a Close.json file. Do I have to be CLA'd before Plumage can have it?
23:20 pmichaud whoever checks it into Plumage has to be CLAd
23:20 dalek parrot: r41423 | bacek++ | branches/nsentry2/compilers/​pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:
23:20 pmichaud it doesn't have to be the original author (more)
23:20 dalek parrot: Mark HLLCompiler.parse_name with :nsentry. It heavily used in Rakudo
23:20 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41423/
23:20 dalek parrot: r41424 | bacek++ | branches/nsentry2/runtime/p​arrot/library/P6object.pir:
23:20 dalek parrot: Don't try to deref null list of methods
23:20 dalek parrot: review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/41424/
23:20 pmichaud however, the committer is responsible for making sure that all licenses are complied with
23:21 Austin That seems wrong.
23:21 darbelo japhb: As I understand it, the CLA is the paper trail that PaFo can use to show that the copyright is accurate.
23:21 pmichaud bacek: I think that parse_name should always be used as a method, never as a sub.
23:22 pmichaud (I grant that perhaps Rakudo isn't doing that)
23:22 darbelo This CLA here says that dude agreed to putting a "(C) PaFo" sticker on his work.
23:22 kid51 joined #parrot
23:22 pmichaud if someone can't vouch for the origin/license of some piece of code, they shouldn't be committing it
23:23 pmichaud that goes along with "responsibility of being a committer"
23:23 Austin PMichaud, sure. But I'm specifically questioning the metadata here.
23:23 jrtayloriv joined #parrot
23:24 japhb Austin, once the metadata is no longer stored in the parrot-plumage repository, I think it becomes a different case.
23:24 pmichaud Austin: I'm not sure where that boundary lies.  Allison would be the person to ask there.
23:24 darbelo Austin: metadata does isn't necessarily subject to that restriction. We were talking source code in the plumage repo.
23:24 japhb In particular, it becomes "data managed by the Plumage service", not "a part of Plumage".
23:24 pmichaud japhb +1
23:24 chromatic I'm not sure that metadata is copyrightable, at least in individual pieces.
23:25 chromatic The *collection* of said metadata may be copyrightable.
23:25 Austin But currently that can only be managed by including it in the repo.
23:26 japhb Austin, yes, right now.  But as of this instant, the only people who can include it in the repo are people with a signed CLA, so that's a non-issue on a technicality.
23:27 pmichaud agreed, delayed binding is good here :)
23:27 japhb Anyone object to the new wording in the first paragraph of the CONTRIBUTING section of the README?  http://gitorious.org/parrot-plumage​/parrot-plumage/blobs/master/README
23:28 Austin I guess I should have asked for the commit bit before you made that change :-)
23:29 japhb Sorry Austin ...
23:29 japhb On the flip side, as I understand the discussion so far, you *don't* need to be a Parrot committer ... only to have sent in a PaFo CLA.
23:29 Austin That's okay. I'll just use "purl message japhb http://nopaste.org/..." for all my updates.
23:29 pmichaud in the "fwiw" category, I've been thinking that although we require CLAs for the Rakudo compiler, a Rakudo distribution is likely to include components that aren't covered directly by the CLA
23:30 japhb Austin, ouch ....  :-)
23:30 darbelo japhb: +1 here
23:30 pmichaud afk # dinner and errands
23:30 Austin Maybe I can create a svn commit-hook to automate that..
23:31 japhb Austin: BPFH ...
23:32 Austin What's a comment in JSON?
23:32 japhb / I think ...?
23:32 japhb er, //
23:32 Austin Oka
23:33 Austin Wjat
23:33 japhb http://www.json.org/ has the meat of the spec on the front page
23:33 jrtayloriv joined #parrot
23:34 japhb Hmmm, come to think of it, I don't know if official JSON even *has* comments.
23:34 Austin purl message japhb http://nopaste.org/p/awEkRdTF3
23:34 purl Message for japhb stored.
23:35 japhb OIC
23:35 Austin So here's a specific question: how do you handle two versions?
23:36 Austin Create two of those things?
23:36 Austin 0.1.2
23:37 japhb Right now: Two different files, mostly the same.  Yech.  Mid-term: probably some is-a or has-a method for cutting out the duplication and only listing differences.
23:37 Austin Actually that's wrong. The installed parrot is required for building
23:37 japhb Right now, I'm assuming people pointing to blead.
23:37 japhb Yes, I was going to say that, but hadn't had the chance.
23:37 Austin No. I'm right. Whiteknight had the problem on configure.
23:37 japhb ?
23:38 Austin Cause it runs parrot_config
23:38 Austin I don't know if I need perl5 for build..
23:38 japhb The *plumage* rule is that you can just assume an installed parrot.  If I could make it break on a non-installed parrot, I'd consider it.
23:38 Austin Okay. Document that.
23:39 japhb I thought I did, somewhere, hmm.
23:39 Austin Maybe you did.
23:39 darbelo Austin: Artistic 1.0 ? not Artistic 2.0 ?
23:39 darbelo japhb: installed os install-deved parrot?
23:39 Austin It's what I got from google. The give-a-shit meter doesn't read real high on that.
23:40 japhb install-dev.  I think it's silly to assume you can build something on top of a Parrot that has not been install-dev'ed.
23:40 japhb To me, install'ed Parrot is only for embedded or other never-changing situations.
23:40 Austin japhb: Doesn't that argue that install-dev is the new install?
23:40 darbelo Austin: FWIW Perl 5 is (Artistic 1 + GPL) parrot is Artistic 2.0
23:41 japhb Austin, I certainly feel it is.
23:41 japhb You can't install any HLL without install-dev, so that pretty much nails it for me.
23:41 darbelo It should be. I'll try to remember that for the next parrotsketch.
23:43 darbelo Austin: http://www.opensource.org/lice​nses/artistic-license-2.0.php if you care enough to read it.
23:43 Austin Updated to Art+GPL
23:43 japhb Short form: If you don't care, use Artistic 2.0.  Only use 1.0 for specific cases.
23:43 japhb Austin, Artistic 2.0 is designed to be GPL-happy.
23:44 japhb So no need for disjunctive license anymore.
23:44 Austin Yeah, but it's not google-code -happy.
23:44 japhb Someone needs to kick someone over at Google, then, because it's not exactly new.
23:44 Austin :)
23:44 Limbic_Region joined #parrot
23:45 TiMBuS joined #parrot
23:45 darbelo You can label it as 'artistic' there and clarify on the README
23:46 darbelo ... or add an explicit LICENSE file. NotFound did that for his mysql libs
23:46 darbelo http://code.google.com/p/parrot-mysql/
23:46 darbelo http://code.google.com/p/parrot-m​ysql/source/browse/trunk/LICENSE
23:48 Tene japhb: I'm going home now.
23:48 japhb Tene, very sorry to not get you
23:48 japhb the task list you wanted yet.
23:48 japhb As you can see, I've been a tad distracted.
23:48 Tene japhb: I've got a bit more to do first. :)
23:48 Tene s'fine
23:49 japhb Tene: will you still be available via IRC later?
23:51 Tene japhb: Yes.
23:51 Austin So, given that Close has a plumage metadata file, how does someone go about installing Close?
23:51 Tene Austin: they can't yet.
23:51 Austin WHAT THE HELL IS TAKING YOU PEOPLE SO LONG????????????
23:51 japhb It's the Next Task
23:51 Tene Austin: the next step for plumage is getting it able to download something.
23:51 Austin :)
23:51 darbelo (0) They get plumage.
23:52 darbelo (1) They build plubage
23:52 Austin Profit?
23:52 purl i think Profit is overrated ... but payroll isn't :)
23:52 darbelo (2) #comment out, doesn't work yet...
23:52 dalek TT #1058 created by jkeenan++: auto::funcptr:  config step not needed if 'jitcapable' is never true
23:52 Austin Bummer.
23:53 japhb I can see I'm just going to have to code my brains out just to get some peace around here.  ;-)
23:53 Austin Perl5 version first?
23:53 dalek close: r129 | Austin++ | trunk/plumage (2 files):
23:53 dalek close: Added ParrotPlumage metadata
23:53 dalek close: review: http://code.google.com/p/close/source/detail?r=129
23:53 jrtayloriv joined #parrot
23:54 darbelo plumage info blizkost
23:54 darbelo "load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'compilers/json/JSON.pbc'
23:54 darbelo current instr.: 'parrot;Config;JSON;ReadConfig' pc 0 (runtime/parrot/library/Config/JSON.pir:21)
23:54 darbelo called from Sub 'get_project_metadata' pc 1156 (plumage.pir:449)
23:54 japhb ?
23:54 darbelo Ouch.
23:54 japhb that's ... odd.
23:55 japhb OH DANGIT
23:55 Austin compilers/ ?
23:55 purl compilers/ is for core utilities
23:55 japhb I know what happened.
23:55 japhb Forgot to push a parrot commit to fix Config::JSON.
23:55 japhb compilers is the installed version of languages/
23:56 Austin It is? I thought that was the other way around...
23:56 darbelo No, compilers is the installed version of compilers/
23:56 purl okay, darbelo.
23:56 darbelo I hate purl some days.
23:56 japhb What Austin said.
23:56 darbelo No, compilers/ is for core utilities
23:56 purl i already had it that way, darbelo.
23:56 Austin Umm, ls /usr/local/lib/parrot/1.6.0-devel has a languages/ but has no compilers/
23:56 japhb ETOOMANYTASKS
23:56 darbelo No, compilers is for core utilities
23:56 purl okay, darbelo.
23:57 japhb Austin, you're right, I was trying to say languages/ was the installed version of compilers/ .  Config::JSON is broken; give me a minute to find that patch and commit.
23:57 Austin Take all the time you need.
23:58 darbelo Somebody needs to go get a time machine, travel back in time and design an install prcedure for parrot.
23:59 japhb darbelo, try r41425 .

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