Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-01-25

Parrot | source cross referenced

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Time Nick Message
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00:45 japhb dukeleto, Plumage's t/harness.pir does not WFM with current Parrot.  Are you working in there?
00:53 japhb dukeleto, nevermind, fixed and pushed
00:56 dalek parrot-plumage: d609393 | japhb++ |  (2 files):
00:56 dalek parrot-plumage: Use [Getopt;Obj] rather than Getopt::Obj
00:56 dalek parrot-plumage: review: http://gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot-plumag​e/commit/d6093930fb241a593958b74b92487a8e87ae19c3
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02:01 dalek parrot-plumage: c7ef85b | japhb++ | src/lib/Plumage/Project.nqp:
02:01 dalek parrot-plumage: [LIB] Plumage::Project: Fix braino with smoke action prereq path
02:01 dalek parrot-plumage: review: http://gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot-plumag​e/commit/c7ef85b68389d50014a7173347ef10f8584b9420
02:03 japhb fperrad++ for the bug report on that, btw
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02:12 mikehh kid51: ping
02:13 kid51 mikehh pong
02:14 mikehh kid51: is the missing use warnings in lib/Parrot/H2inc.pm deliberate
02:14 mikehh perlcritic complains
02:14 kid51 Hmm, interesting, I didn't know we had a check for that.
02:15 kid51 We can certainly put it back in.
02:15 kid51 I guess I'm thinking of certain discussions I've had on $job ...
02:15 kid51 ... where many people argue that 'use warnings' should go in calling programs but not in modules.
02:16 kid51 OTOH, the sort of people who argue against that tend to argue against tests, against branching in version control systems, etc,
02:17 mikehh been there :-}
02:17 kid51 restoring.
02:23 dalek parrot: r43584 | jkeenan++ | branches/one_make/lib/Parrot/H2inc.pm:
02:23 dalek parrot: Add 'use warnings' to keep perlcritic happy.
02:23 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43584/
02:30 mikehh btw it's perlcritic.t test 125 - that just leaves Coke's XXX in tools/dev/checkdepend.pl - the rest of the tests pass
02:31 kid51 Yes, Coke is aware of them and, I think, hopes to resolve the TODO before merging.
02:32 kid51 Does anyone know how we run PASM these days?
02:33 kid51 If so, can you comment on TT #644?
02:36 Coke kid51: ./parrot foo.pasm
02:37 Coke kid51: what was the point of pulling out all those functions into a .pm?
02:37 Coke (just what was in the commit msg?)
02:37 kid51 Yes
02:37 Coke ok. makes it very annoying to actually work on the script.
02:38 kid51 This works:  ./parrot examples/pasm/hello.pasm
02:38 Coke (for me)
02:38 kid51 Do you have more work to do on it?  If so, I'll revert.
02:38 Coke Probably. also probably not worth reverting.
02:40 kid51 So, apropos of TT 644 and the examples in examples/pasm/*.pasm ...
02:41 kid51 ... I get meaningful results with hello.pasm, trace.pasm, and fact.pasm -- but just get a hang with cat.pasm.
02:42 Coke kid51: ... did you read the pod for that test?
02:42 Coke s/test/example/
02:42 kid51 Am just looking at it now.
02:43 kid51 okay I got it
02:49 Coke ... look at that email to parrot-dev, we have examples of 1/2 already, and 3 smells almost like nqp-rx.
02:49 kid51 The one from atex.way?
02:50 * kid51 wishes C were a "more common language" for *him*
02:51 Coke easy enough to learn. =-)
03:01 kid51 The problem is that the textbooks only take me to the advanced beginner level.  Parrot demands an advanced level.  The problem is finding ways to get to and through the *intermediate* level.
03:02 chromatic I'm sure we could find some small tasks for the interested.
03:08 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31878), fulltest) at r43584 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (g++ with --optimize)
03:11 mikehh kid51: you could review the code - some is quite good, although a lot needs refactoring
03:12 kid51 I've done a little of that.  I think one of  the problems is that we are so macro-ized that it's difficult the see the C
03:13 mikehh yeah - one of the reasons I am very wary of C macros
03:14 chromatic I haven't found that to be too problematic her.
03:14 chromatic *here
03:14 chromatic The PMC attribute accessors aren't great macros, but otherwise they seem reasonably sane.
03:16 mikehh emphasis on seem :-}
03:18 chromatic Jim's a good programmer.  I don't know any reason he couldn't do some C stuff.
03:18 mikehh I agree with that
03:21 nopaste "kid51" at 70.85.31.226 pasted "Is this sufficient to get 'make hello' working again?" (27 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/19351
03:22 * kid51 for tonight, would settle for getting a little make syntax down
03:30 chromatic kid51, that should work, but we could also use pbc_to_exe.
03:32 kid51 And the syntax for that would be ...?
03:34 chromatic Copy the syntax for the pbc_to_exe target.
03:37 kid51 That would be the one that starts:  examples/pasm/hello.pbc
03:38 kid51 Well, that's all I can do tonight
03:38 * kid51 must sleep
03:38 purl $kid51->sleep(8 * 3600);
03:46 plobsing hi, I've been having some GC problems.
03:47 plobsing specifically, I can't imagine a situation that you'd want to run mark/sweep when you are already running mark/sweep.
03:49 chromatic Agreed.
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03:50 nopaste "plobsing" at 69.172.121.171 pasted "[backtrace] GC called from GC" (35 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/19352
03:51 chromatic That's fun.
03:51 plobsing I know why this particular instance is failing, but it highlights a bigger issue
03:52 plobsing this instance fails bc interp.iglobals is gone when we try tracing in the inner GC
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03:52 plobsing but more importantly: why can this happen?
03:52 plobsing should we have a flag to prevent it re-entering?
03:57 chromatic I think this can only happen during global destruction.
03:58 plobsing but if a destructor tries to allocate memory, it could trigger a GC run.
03:58 plobsing in fact, it is likely to trigger a run, because we're out of memory (which is why we are running GC)
03:58 plobsing am I mistaken somewhere?
03:59 chromatic Hm.  That's plausible.
04:00 chromatic I wonder how performance would look if we allocated a new pool *prior to* reclaiming old headers.
04:13 plobsing my idea was a flag, set when we're running GC, that switches us over to something like infinite memory GC until we're done
04:13 plobsing basically, allocate the new pool on demand
04:13 plobsing is that possible?
04:21 * plobsing doesn't really understand the GC all that well
04:42 Coke I don't think the purpose of 'make hello' was to just print 'hello', was it?
04:43 Coke (i thought it was to test the old 'exe' stuff.
04:43 Coke (though if that's going away...)
04:49 cotto That's a very inefficient way to print something.  We should be using echo.
05:06 chromatic plobsing, it's possible but I'm not sure it's worthwhile.
05:06 chromatic In the sense that "Hm, that could add complexity."
05:06 chromatic It may fall out of what we need to do to add generational GC though.
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06:15 cotto hi Jimmy_Zhuo
06:24 Jimmy_Zhuo hello
06:24 purl privet, Jimmy_Zhuo.
06:25 Jimmy_Zhuo cotto
06:49 chromatic I may have just found a 7.118% GC performance tuning.
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06:57 nopaste "chromatic" at 72.87.39.97 pasted "bacek: modest patch to decrease number of GC runs" (69 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/19354
06:59 chromatic I think we have to tune the replenish level some more, but this approach seems promising.
07:17 dukeleto chromatic: do you need some benchmark runs with that patch?
07:17 chromatic dukeleto, I'd like to see them, yes.
07:18 dukeleto chromatic: which benchmarks? the gc ones, or others?
07:18 chromatic Anything you can run.
07:18 chromatic I expect a 2-8% improvement.
07:20 dukeleto ok
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07:22 chromatic Meanwhile let me think of algorithmic improvements.
07:48 dukeleto msg japhb please lend some tuits on http://gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot-plumag​e/commit/14d0bcf219c0639f27ee40145c878add265e1e80
07:48 purl Message for japhb stored.
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08:39 japhb msg dukeleto got it, will take a look in the morning.
08:39 purl Message for dukeleto stored.
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10:57 bacek o hai
10:58 bacek mikehh, ping?
11:00 dalek parrot: r43585 | bacek++ | branches/orderedhash_revamp (40 files):
11:00 dalek parrot: Sync branch with trunk
11:00 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43585/
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13:00 Coke msg cotto - I think the branch is at a good merge point right now. You?
13:00 purl Message for cotto stored.
13:01 Coke (we need someone to update it with changes from trunk, then have andy D. and windows folks test it.
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13:16 mikehh bacek: you still there
13:16 bacek mikehh, barely. Can you retest packfile.t failure at r43585?
13:16 bacek yak...
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13:22 mikehh bacek: woking on it
13:22 bacek mikehh, thanks
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13:33 mikehh bacek: make corevm/make coretest, make world/make test passes on both g++/gcc (with --optimize)
13:33 bacek hooray!
13:33 bacek mikehh++
13:33 mikehh running a fulltest on gcc
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13:44 mikehh bacek: btw I have a script that will sort out svn properties after you merge if there are any problems
13:44 bacek mikehh, ok, thanks
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13:50 bacek mikehh, dcommiting now
13:50 bacek mikehh, MANIFEST.SKIP will probably require regenerating
13:50 bacek r43586
13:53 Coke bacek: yup. committing...
13:54 bacek Coke, thanks
13:55 Coke I am not looking forward to merging one_make.
13:55 Coke bacek: make test on trunk is ok.
13:55 bacek Coke, I tested before commiting :)
13:56 Coke yah, but you're using git!
13:57 bacek That's why I can test before merge! :)
13:59 dalek parrot: r43586 | bacek++ | trunk (11 files):
13:59 dalek parrot: Merge branch orderedhash_revamp into trunk
13:59 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43586/
13:59 dalek parrot: r43587 | coke++ | trunk/MANIFEST.SKIP:
13:59 dalek parrot: regen per bacek++'s request.
13:59 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43587/
14:02 Austin Amazon is offering a special deal on ukelele's.
14:03 moritz Austin: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q​uery=ukulele+orchestra+of+great+britain :-)
14:04 Austin That's horrifying.
14:04 moritz they are quite cool IMHO :-)
14:04 Austin "Shaft" done by Ukelele's.
14:04 Austin Forget Haiti. Great Britain needs help.
14:04 purl Austin, I didn't have anything matching haiti. great britain needs help
14:07 Austin Which quite naturally (!!!) leads to youtube suggesting the ukelele version of "Bohemian Rhapsody"
14:07 Austin moritz--
14:12 Coke bacek: full test is also fine.
14:14 bacek Coke, on which platform?
14:16 Coke something linuxy
14:16 Coke hurm. checkdepend.pl --dump is borked in one_make branch
14:19 Coke ah. no, it's just very verbose with the 'diag'
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14:32 dalek TT #1080 closed by whiteknight++: segfault in Parrot_HashIteratorKey_get_string
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17:09 cotto Coke, my only concern is that checkdepends needs to be significantly smarter to avoid some of the false positives it's catching now.
17:10 NotFound Parrot Version 2.0.0 Configure 2.0 | Copyright (C) 2001-2009, Parrot Foundation.
17:11 NotFound Must not be 2001-2010 ?
17:11 darbelo Only if we edited in 2010. Which I think we did.
17:15 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
17:17 Coke cotto: do you think we should try to fix all deps before mergeback, or that we're in an OK state right now? (i.e. no worse than trunk)
17:22 cotto The dependencies aren't bad.  It's just checkdepends that's goofy.
17:22 cotto As long as that's made clear, merge away!
17:37 Coke checkdepends is optional and is only used by folks hacking on the build process, not ``real'' developers.
17:37 Coke ok. if no one beats me to it, I'll try to do the merge tonight.
17:43 Coke git folks: is the code for github something you could drop in an internal network and run for internal usage?
17:45 particle use gitorious
17:46 particle you can even integrate it with trac, or other request trackers
17:46 dalek parrot: r43588 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/pmc/fixedpmcarray.pmc:
17:46 dalek parrot: [pmc] return self in FPA sort method, TT #1414
17:46 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43588/
17:46 dalek TT #1414 closed by NotFound++: Change ??A .sort() methods to return self
17:47 particle and for display of your repo in a browser, see cgit
17:50 dalek winxed: r369 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/t/harness:
17:50 dalek winxed: fix deprecated Getopt usage
17:50 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=369
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17:53 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31898), fulltest) at r43587 - Ubuntu 9.10 i386 (g++ with --optimize)
17:56 japhb Sanity check: How does one add a method to all *Array PMCs from PIR?  I could swear it used to work to insert the method in namespace ["Array"] but that seems to be broken now.
17:59 darbelo japhb: Could be TT#389 related?
17:59 whiteknight pmichaud: ping
18:04 japhb darbelo, tt389_fix is still unmerged though, yes?
18:05 darbelo Oh. Nevermind then.
18:08 cotto_w0rk Coke, github offers their software for internal use but it's really expensive.
18:10 Coke gitorius is fine. Just wanted a free option to pitch to the admin team here if I can convince anyone to go git.
18:10 Coke well, once 389 hits, it's not going to be doable that way anyway, is it?
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18:11 Coke so you might as well figure out if there is a "right" way.
18:11 japhb Coke ... and that would be why I asked.  ;-)
18:12 japhb I was merely saying to darbelo that it seemed the TT did not affect my current problem.
18:14 Coke I am not sure there is a way to do that, btw.
18:14 Coke (aside from the old way which we no longer want.)
18:14 Coke i would have guessed an op named "_method", and see no obvious candidates.
18:15 Coke I think the right answer might be to make it a global multi that DTRT when passed a core class as an arg, or to subclass the ones you care about, add the method, and hll-map them.
18:15 darbelo The *Array PMCs don't seem to share a common ancestor, which makes 'altering them all in one go' unlikely to be correct.
18:16 japhb Too bad we can't just add a method to the array role.
18:17 Coke ah, but there are at least 2 distinct types of array role. and it's not really a role anymore, more of a does, which doesn't mean anything. =-)
18:17 Coke s/anymore/anyway/
18:17 Coke but yes.
18:17 Coke you wouldn't be adding 'reverse', would you?
18:20 japhb why yes, funny you should ask.  ;-)
18:23 dukeleto hola
18:23 japhb o/
18:26 dukeleto japhb: are you hacking away at getting reverse() to work?
18:26 japhb dukeleto, yes
18:26 dukeleto japhb: it doesn't seem to be used in plumage right now, is it needed?
18:26 dukeleto japhb: although, knowing how to do it would be great
18:27 japhb No, but:  1) it represents a general problem, so I'd rather fix it than ignore it, as you said, and 2) Util.nqp might be moving into NQP-rx, so it will actually be useful there.
18:31 Coke japhb: there is a version in partcl with a note that suggest pushing it back upstream.
18:31 Coke (if you just want to steal that version)
18:31 dukeleto japhb: sounds good
18:31 japhb link?
18:31 purl or "Link is ... like ... this pointy eared goblin that walks around in midi-music land with a letter opener attacking circles and things and wooing princesses but not bannon, you know?" or preaction is Error.
18:32 pmichaud whiteknight: pong
18:32 Coke http://github.com/partcl/partcl/blo​b/master/src/class/tcllist.pir#L59
18:32 dukeleto japhb: plumage also has the latest tapir, with bail out support and out of order test detection
18:32 Coke (though ours is in PIR)
18:32 whiteknight pmichaud: I would like to look at adding optimization stages to PCT. I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction about how to do that
18:33 Coke (and will suffer from the same problem you have now, how to add a method.)
18:33 Coke oh. use the add_method method.
18:33 Coke (duh! =-)
18:33 japhb dukeleto, what do those features mean?
18:35 japhb Coke ... but then it needs to be manually added to every *Array class, yes?
18:37 japhb Non-destructive reverse in  NQP: http://gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/parrot-p​lumage/blobs/master/src/lib/Util.nqp#line162
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18:38 pmichaud whiteknight: I'm not sure what direction is the right one.  It would depend on the optimizations.
18:39 whiteknight what I'm looking at initially is a way to collapse nested PAST::Blocks so they don't create separate lexically-scoped functions
18:40 pmichaud whiteknight: you'd also have to make sure they aren't ever used as an rvalue
18:40 pmichaud (i.e., as a closure)
18:40 dukeleto japhb: it understands 'Bail out!', which will halt a test file
18:40 dukeleto japhb: and it will notice if tests run out of order and fail the file
18:40 whiteknight pmichaud: well, I'm envisioning a "buyer beware" optimization step that languages which know the risks can choose to load
18:41 whiteknight for instance, Matrixy doesn't really support closures, so it could optimize those nested scopes away with abandon
18:41 Coke japhb: yes. all those classes are different anyway.
18:41 Coke see previous rant about lack of common ancestor.
18:41 japhb Is there an existing sub in parrot's Test::More that does the bailout, or should I just go with 'say("Bail out!")'
18:41 japhb ?
18:41 pmichaud whiteknight: my suggestion would be to make a branch and experiment with different things there
18:41 pmichaud whiteknight: then propose a patch or design update
18:41 japhb Coke, yeah, I'm completely with you on that rant
18:42 whiteknight pmichaud: isn't there a way to load in an optimization stage at runtime?
18:42 whiteknight pmichaud: do optimizations stages need to be built-in to PCT, or can they be loaded externally?
18:42 pmichaud whiteknight: sure -- just change the list of stages in PCT::HLLCompiler
18:42 pmichaud or you can derive a subclass of PAST::Compiler or POST::Compiler and use those
18:42 whiteknight okay, are there any examples of how to do that?
18:42 pmichaud or.... there's lots of ways to do it.
18:43 pmichaud no, no examples yet.
18:43 whiteknight gotchar
18:43 Coke it might be nice if someone disproved that the various array classes were faster or not, so we could kill the variants.
18:43 japhb Actually, why *don't* the *Array classes inherit from Array?
18:43 whiteknight I'm really trying to push the development of PCT and PAST-level optimizations
18:43 Coke japhb: they were written so long ago, I'm not sure the answer even matters.
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18:44 Coke (it might, but I suspect it's tied to "different implementations so we can be faster/smaller/better)
18:44 japhb Coke, ah ... I was worried that it might be something like "We found out PMC inheritance is really slow, so we decided to not do that in core PMCs"
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18:45 whiteknight japhb: the Array PMC is lousy, and I thought it was deprecated
18:45 Coke japhb: the array classes predate tthat.
18:46 japhb We really need some way of saying "These N PMCs are implemented differently, but there are methods that apply to all of them and don't directly touch implementation details (e.g. by being implemented entirely in terms of other methods or vtables)"
18:47 whiteknight japhb: roles
18:47 PerlJam PMCs have role support now?
18:47 PerlJam or is that just wishful thinking?
18:47 japhb But didn't Coke just say earlier that roles didn't work?
18:47 japhb Oh wait, technically he said 'does' doesn't do anything
18:47 Coke roles might work; I don't think any core pmcs use them.
18:47 whiteknight PerlJam: "for some value of role"
18:48 * japhb sticks a fork in his leg just to distract himself from the mental agony
18:48 Coke we already cannot rely on "does" for anything meaningful, so I hesitate to add more there.
18:49 pmichaud whiteknight: I'll be happy to see some prototypes of pct and past-level optimizations, but I'm also wanting to make sure their development doesn't interfere with rakudo development much (especially over the next three months)
18:49 pmichaud especially since it's unlikely that rakudo will be able to take much advantage of them
18:50 whiteknight pmichaud: sure. Hence my desire to make them hot-pluggable so people only load them when they know they want them
18:50 whiteknight Rakudo could steer clear of optimizations that harm it's generated code integrity
18:50 pmichaud right, hot-pluggable has always been the intent
18:50 pmichaud and hot-pluggable per-language
18:50 pmichaud actually, even hot-pluggable per-compile
18:53 japhb Anyone object to a TT basically saying "It's unreasonably painful to add a method to all array PMCs"?  Or should I start a parrot-dev thread first?
18:54 darbelo Aicket it *and* mail the list.
18:54 darbelo s/Aicket/Ticket/
18:55 japhb And I guess I'll call that option C
19:00 Coke I object. why do you want to do that? =-)
19:01 Coke (I don't really object.)
19:01 japhb Well all right then.  ;-)
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19:12 whiteknight plobsing: ping
19:15 whiteknight is there any way on Trac to see a list of comments I've made to tickets
19:15 whiteknight ?
19:15 whiteknight because I made a comment on a ticket the other day, but forgot which ticket it was and I can't find it
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19:24 dalek TT #1416 created by japhb++: Unreasonably painful to add a method to all *Array PMCs
19:26 ash_ http://www.infoq.com/presentations/​click-crash-course-modern-hardware just found this, my friend recommended it, its from one of the Java VM developers, just thought i'd pass it along, its talking about CPU's performance, caching, etc.
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19:44 plobsing whiteknight: pong
19:44 whiteknight plobsing:  can you take a look at #1147?
19:46 plobsing ah that one.
19:47 plobsing yeah, with libjit_framebuilder shelved again (gc issues), I'm going to try taking smaller steps
19:47 plobsing I have a plan, which I'll lay out at #ps tomorow
19:47 plobsing thats probably step 2 or 3
19:48 plobsing btw those changes were included in libjit_framebuilder
19:50 whiteknight okay, can you take ownership of that ticket?
19:52 plobsing done
19:52 whiteknight w00t. plobsing++
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20:52 Coke seeb chromatic?
20:52 Coke seen chromatic?
20:52 purl chromatic was last seen on #parrot 13 hours, 29 minutes and 51 seconds ago, saying: Meanwhile let me think of algorithmic improvements.
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22:46 GeJ Good morning everyone.
22:47 bacek G'Day GeJ
22:48 GeJ G'Day bacek
22:48 darbelo Mornin'
22:55 dalek parrot: r43589 | bubaflub++ | trunk/src/pmc/fixedpmcarray.pmc:
22:55 dalek parrot: fixed typo (welcome to the future)
22:55 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43589/
22:55 dalek parrot: r43590 | bacek++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
22:55 dalek parrot: Remove OrderedHash from DEPRECATED.
22:55 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43590/
22:58 dalek TT #1403 closed by bacek++: [DEPRECATED] OrderedHash PMC
23:27 darbelo Hm. There goes *that* idea.
23:30 dalek TT #1330 closed by plobsing++: [PATCH] deprecate "v" to denote empty nci pararameter list
23:36 ash_ joined #parrot
23:37 kid51 joined #parrot
23:38 cotto_w0rk msg Coke If you end up merging one_make tonight, just make sure to add a note to checkdepends.pl so that people don't try to fix things that aren't broken.
23:38 purl Message for coke stored.
23:39 darbelo ... nor break things that aren't fixed, but don't think that is as likely.
23:40 Coke cotto_w0rk: turns out I'm still at work. probably not going to happen.
23:41 Coke turns out it's really boring localizing a webapp. =-)
23:41 cotto_w0rk orly?
23:41 purl YA RLY.
23:41 Coke (bonus boring points for having it be an app for tax returns.)
23:41 cotto_w0rk You're making me sleepy.
23:41 * darbelo collapses.
23:42 Whiteknight joined #parrot
23:47 dalek TT #1417 created by doughera++: src/pmc/oderedhash.pmc errors
23:49 cotto_w0rk There's a good chance I'll have some time tonight for the merge.
23:51 payload joined #parrot
23:54 ash_ left #parrot
23:54 bacek bah, chromatic beat me on #TT1417
23:55 darbelo Don't worry bacek, we have plenty more bugs for you to fix ;)
23:55 bacek darbelo, no way!

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