Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-02-02

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 dalek parrot: r43700 | darbelo++ | branches/pmc_freeze_with_pmcs/src/pmc/imageio.pmc:
00:00 dalek parrot: Add props, adjust the Copyright, trim long lines and generally try to make codetest happy.
00:00 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43700/
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00:01 kurahaupo Aah, that's quite possible. Needed FreeNode during LCA2010.
00:01 Whiteknight darbelo: is that branch ready for testing?
00:01 kurahaupo1 msg plobsing The "array unshift" problem has gone away because the Array PMC has been removed. Please close TT#1399
00:01 darbelo Whiteknight: Yep.
00:02 Whiteknight w00t. Updating now
00:02 darbelo There's still some codinstd issues. So don't expect a clean fulltest.
00:02 darbelo But make test should be passing now.
00:03 darbelo Haven't checked the c++ build either.
00:04 Whiteknight I'll run some tests
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00:08 Whiteknight darbelo: build breaks for me in array.pmc. Can we update from trunk to have that killed?
00:08 darbelo I did.
00:09 Whiteknight did you commit it? because I up'd and didn't get those changes
00:09 purl Message for plobsing stored.
00:11 darbelo Whiteknight: r43696
00:13 Coke ... purl, you're slow.
00:13 Whiteknight the correct term is "stupid"
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00:15 darbelo Whiteknight: did you try a make realclean?
00:15 Whiteknight I did. And now fresh checkout
00:17 dalek parrot: r43701 | whiteknight++ | branches/kill_array_pmc:
00:17 dalek parrot: branch merged into trunk at r43695 with help from bacek++. Deleting branch
00:17 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43701/
00:17 darbelo Damm weird. I don't have array.pmc here
00:17 darbelo And it's not on the makefile either.
00:18 Whiteknight I just built on the fresh checkout
00:19 darbelo I tell you, svn is going to turn me into a git convert one of this days.
00:20 * kurahaupo1 wonders what svn has done to darbelo?
00:20 dukeleto svn eats babies for brunch
00:21 darbelo It tried to trick me into thinking it was an improvement over CVS.
00:21 chromatic It *is* an improvement over CVS.
00:22 darbelo Not enough of an improvement in my books.
00:22 kurahaupo1 I concur with chromatic
00:22 chromatic I wonder how much you worked with CVS then... ouch, branching.
00:22 chromatic Lack of atomic commits.
00:22 kurahaupo1 Last time I tried "cvs rename dir1 dir2" it was ... horrible.
00:22 chromatic Oh wow, I totally forgot renaming.  Yes.
00:23 chromatic Editing the ,v files directly... and sometimes needing to and being unable to do so!
00:23 kurahaupo1 We could always go back to RCS. :-)
00:24 darbelo Actaully, I've worked enough with CVS that I know how broken it is and how to avoid it's brain damage.
00:24 Whiteknight or go all the way back to chiseling FORTRAN into stone tablets
00:25 kurahaupo1 Nah, chiseling takes too much effort. Much prefer to rub magnets over core memory.
00:25 chromatic "What are all of these white dots?"  "Bits."
00:26 Whiteknight darbelo: all pass
00:26 darbelo Whiteknight: excelent.
00:28 Whiteknight you haven't even seen how poorly SVN is used at my work
00:28 Whiteknight my boss insists on storing the binaries for all third-party compilers and utilities in the repo with the source code
00:29 Whiteknight ..which got a little bit absurd when we started using VisualStudio
00:29 darbelo UGH:
00:29 Whiteknight it's the same boss who also insists on storing all object files and executable files in the repo too
00:30 Whiteknight ...you know, if you need to build the software but you only have some tape, a paper clip, and a linker
00:30 TonyC one of the microsoft software development books recommends keeping the tools in the repo (so you can be sure version N is build with the same tools you originally built version N with)
00:30 darbelo That's ...
00:31 * darbelo lacks the adjectives needed to describe such horror.
00:32 Whiteknight that's a GREAT idea, if people in the workplace are just using random software versions and there is no effort to standardize
00:32 TonyC well, if you're trying to track down a production problem in version N, since CC N+M might have introduced bugs/fixes that interfere
00:32 darbelo Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl ftaghn.
00:32 Whiteknight or, you don't upgrade your tools without proper regression testing
00:33 * kurahaupo1 is melting, and begs apologies in advance for any strange comments he may make. It's 27°C. With no wind. In bright sun. At 100% humidity. All at once.
00:33 chromatic Go indoors.
00:33 kurahaupo1 me *is* indoors.
00:33 chromatic Go indoors INDOORS.
00:33 darbelo Outdoors is ~32
00:33 darbelo C over here
00:34 kurahaupo1 That would put you in, oh Brisbane?
00:34 darbelo Nope, north of Buenos Aires.
00:34 darbelo Today was a hot day.
00:35 * kurahaupo1 wonders about the thoughts now going through the Northern Hemisphere contingent, what with us complaining about the heat in the midst of their winter.
00:35 TonyC 27C here (Sydney)
00:36 kurahaupo1 Hope you have aircon, or at least some wind.
00:37 darbelo Highest recorded temperature in this year, so far, was 41.3�C IIRC.
00:37 treed yeah, it's like 12 here
00:37 treed and cloudy
00:37 TonyC a fan for now
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00:48 kurahaupo1 I notice that Array.pmc has finally been removed. Having tried to debug #1399, it was a good idea in theory, but nasty can of worms in practice.
00:48 kurahaupo1 (Just to get back on the topic of Parrot for a change)
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01:02 Whiteknight So I've got an idea for RPA with using two resizable memory buffers, one with negative indices
01:03 Whiteknight should give identical shift/unshift performance as for push/pop
01:04 kurahaupo1 Why not just a single one, but with head & tail indeces?
01:04 Whiteknight because realloc can't grow a buffer at the head. Only grows at the tail
01:04 Whiteknight alternative is to use realloc/memcpy which is expensive
01:05 kurahaupo1 Realloc normally does a memmove under the hood. If we open the lid and do the memmove ourselves, that problem goes away.
01:06 kurahaupo1 Having said that, I think we have a big problem with arrays not being thread safe, or at least, badly suboptimal in performance.
01:06 Whiteknight realloc only does a memmove if the block can't grow linearly
01:08 kurahaupo1 If you have two blocks, only one of them can possible grow by expanding into the unused heap. Well, okay, if there's a big enough hole, maybe both. But then we could potentially grow downwards into a preceding hole.
01:10 chromatic Make one single buffer, but don't start at its start.  Leave a few blocks free to shift/unshift.
01:10 Whiteknight that's all well and good unless the array is only used for shift/unshift access and needs to grow persistently inthat direction
01:11 Whiteknight for cases that never shift/unshift, we have unused wasted sapce
01:11 Whiteknight space
01:12 bacek_at_work for the record: it's just "unshift"
01:12 chromatic We always have wasted space; we never allocate only one block at a time.
01:13 Whiteknight the one case where my idea doesn't work is where an RPA is used as a FIFO queue
01:14 Whiteknight the only reason I think about this at all is because plobsing reported O(n**2) performance on RPA for shift/unshift benchmarks, as opposed to Array with O(2n)
01:18 Whiteknight "TODO: This always moves the array memory, which is not very performant"
01:21 kurahaupo1 I remember looking at that last year and thinking "it needs fixing".
01:22 kurahaupo1 Apropos realloc: if you increase the allocation size geometrically, it amortizes out to O(n)
01:24 cotto When in doubt, double something and hope it works out.
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01:37 Whiteknight 2**N allocation sizes is definitely the way to go
01:38 Whiteknight but constant memmoves is not good either
01:38 kurahaupo1 cotto: Ratios other than 2 also work. It depends on how short of memory you are.
01:40 Whiteknight powers of two has always been preferred where I have seen, but I guess other numbers aren't bad either
01:41 Whiteknight I guess it depends on the OS allocator, which is out of our domain
01:41 chromatic Only if you're afraid of sbrk
01:42 Whiteknight I'm going to put together a prototype of my RPA idea with double-buffers. worst case, there is no benefit
01:42 kurahaupo1 Theoretical optimal is about 1 : 1.9276, on the assumption that reallocation can re-use earlier versions. But 1:2 is easier to compute and near enough to same efficiency.
01:42 Whiteknight best case, I think we win in some benchmarks
01:42 kurahaupo1 How will it do as a FIFO?
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01:44 Whiteknight kurahaupo1: I'm thinking that if it gets too lopsided we throw in a normalization step
01:44 Whiteknight so if the buffer is 2x larger than the data, we memmove and realloc
01:47 kurahaupo1 I suspect you'll want more hysteresis than 2:1, after all that's what you have immediately after the buffer's expanded.
01:47 Whiteknight kurahaupo1: of course, I'm just being brief
01:49 kurahaupo1 I've been pondering using arrays in pure-functional languages, and in thread-safe ways. Do we have any concept of a write-only object? (That is, one which is partially initialized, and throws and exception if you try to read from it.)
01:49 Whiteknight if there is more free space at the beginning of the floating buffer than there is data at the end, we memmov.
01:49 Whiteknight if there is more than 4x space than data, we realloc down
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01:49 kurahaupo1 It sounds like you'll want some heureustics to guess whether you're seeing stack-like or queue-like behaviour.
01:50 kurahaupo1 So that you can choose whether to swap halves when one gets to zero size.
01:52 Whiteknight ideally, we would have different, speciallized datatypes that were either stack-like or FIFO-like
01:52 Whiteknight but no, people want everything
01:52 kurahaupo1 Ideally, yes. In Perl, not for a while.
01:53 kurahaupo1 Maybe we should have a default array implementation that has deliberately abysmal performance, and only provide other versions that are optimized for index/queue/stack/whatever but omit "difficult" functionality. :-)
01:55 chromatic Yep.
01:56 Whiteknight so instead of improving RPA performance, we add new types with great performance in limited areas
01:57 kurahaupo1 Exactly.
01:57 Whiteknight PMCStack and PMCQueue types
01:58 kurahaupo1 And PMCIndexable and PMCReversable and ...
01:58 Whiteknight well, that's pushing it. We could lazily reverse an RPA by negating an index on a flag
01:58 kurahaupo1 Reason I mention pure-functional is the side-effects of single assignment and referential identity. First is, the easy way to roll an array is just to generate a proxy that tweaks index, length, etc and/or concatenates additional or replaced elements.
01:59 kurahaupo1 And reverse is similarly trivial.
01:59 Whiteknight Parrot-linear-algebra uses that trick to do transpose on arrays
01:59 Whiteknight we don't actually transpose, just flip an "is transposed" flag
02:00 Whiteknight FixedPMCArray and ResizablePMCArray already are optimized for fast indexing
02:00 Whiteknight well, not optimized but not bad either
02:00 * kurahaupo1 thinks if he was designing Parrot from scratch, there would be I, N, S, C and V registers. C = container, V = value.
02:02 kurahaupo1 My other thought about arrays is that we should separate the type-specific stuff from the byte-munging stuff. How hard is it to do mix-ins in C (in "core" types)?
02:03 chromatic Depends if you only want to mark capabilities or you want to share implementations at the VTABLE level.
02:05 kurahaupo1 Mixing up the vtables I guess. AnyIntegerArray::get_element(int i) would call self.get_byte_ptr(i*sizeof(INTVAL)), which could be supplied by either ResizeableAnyArray or FixedAnyArray.
02:06 chromatic That's much easier in a Lorito world.
02:07 kurahaupo1 To give you ResizeableIntegerArray and FixedIntegerArray.
02:07 kurahaupo1 Hmmm, sounds like there's a bunch of stuff we need to plan a long way ahead.
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02:46 Whiteknight sounds like that might make an interesting project: a loadable library of optimized storage types like specialized stacks and queues
02:46 Whiteknight throw it together on github, and if things go well maybe get merged into trunk one day
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03:22 Topic for #parrotis now Parrot 2.0.0 "Inevitable" released! | http://parrot.org | Priorities: deprecated core PMCs and VTABLE entries | Roadmap: http://icanhaz.com/parrotroadmap | Latest modified TT's: http://icanhaz.com/parrotbugs
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03:47 * kurahaupo wonders what's up with six people entering #parrot all at once? Connectivity problems somewhere?
03:47 Tene netsplit
03:47 TonyC servers under attack
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05:40 cotto chromatic, ping
05:41 chromatic pong
05:43 cotto how deep of a change would it be to store bytecode with subs in pbc?
05:43 chromatic I don't know.
05:44 chromatic Overall I think it may be doable.
05:44 chromatic I don't know if there are any deeper implications to the change.
05:47 cotto How much imcc hacking do you think it'd entail?
05:49 chromatic Hopefully minimal to none.  IMCC should go through src/packfile.c and other files.
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06:28 dalek parrot: r43702 | mikehh++ | trunk/MANIFEST.SKIP:
06:28 dalek parrot: Regenerate MANIFEST.SKIP
06:29 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43702/
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06:59 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#32027), fulltest) at r43702 - Ubuntu 9.10 i386 (g++ with --optimize)
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07:08 treed did irc.parrot.org stop working?
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07:18 treed Is it possible to rename a parrot;Class once it's been made
07:18 treed (or give it a name at that point)
07:34 treed aha, the name method
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07:39 mikehh where's purl?
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07:40 treed probably still on the other side of the break
07:40 treed irc.parrot.org seems to have broken
07:41 mikehh well slavorg doesn't seem to be doing whatever he does normally
07:41 treed slavorg/n don't have ops
07:43 mikehh only 4 ops at the moment and bot privilages
07:44 mikehh well nopaste seems there
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09:12 bacek o hai
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09:25 mikehh bacek: hello
09:25 bacek mikehh, aloha
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09:35 he "make smoke" ends with "Could not upload report to Smolder at http://smolder.plusthree.com"...
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10:08 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#32031), fulltest) at r43702 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (gcc with --optimize)
10:10 mikehh he; I am getting that a lot usually a timeout error, but the file has uploaded, but not completed server-side before the timout
10:12 mikehh check if it has uploadede at http://smolder.plusthree.com/​app/projects/smoke_reports/8
10:12 he mikehh: ah, I usually took that to mean "complete failure to upload", but now I see the result is there.
10:12 mikehh your smoke was #32030
10:12 he Yup.
10:13 mikehh HTTP CODE: 500 (read timeout)
10:15 mikehh got to go out for a bit: bbl
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10:56 dalek tracwiki: v28 | allison++ | CallingConventionsOverview
10:56 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/CallingCo​nventionsOverview?version=28&action=diff
11:30 bacek ping Infinoid, TonyC, TimToady
11:30 bacek can someone give op to slavorg?
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13:26 Coke_ msg mikehh your MANIFEST.SKIP updates seem to be arguing with everyone elses.
13:27 mikehh Coke: in what way?
13:28 mikehh all I do is run tools/dev/mk_manifest_and_skip.pl
13:29 mikehh also purl is not around to get messages
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13:29 Coke_ mikehh: yes. so something is screwed up on your or my account. (look at the last 4 changes to MANIFEST.SKIP)
13:30 Coke_ do you have any local modifications?
13:31 mikehh Coke: nope - I get a test failure from manifests_tests and so run tools/dev/mk_manifest_and_skip.pl which gives me an svn diff which I commit
13:33 mikehh manifest_tests (also part of fulltest)
13:43 Coke_ I wonder if those ignores got screwed up by the merge.
13:45 Coke_ mikehh: what does "svn pg svn:ignore tools/build" tell you?
13:45 Coke_ mine shows me dynpmc.pl
13:45 Coke_ dynoplibs.pl
13:48 Coke so when I regen it now, it has modifications, on top of your commit.
13:48 Coke I also have no local modifications.
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13:49 * Coke wonders why we even have this file.
14:06 mikehh Coke: "svn pg svn:ignore tools/build" doesn't give me anything
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14:07 mikehh let me rebuild and see
14:12 mikehh manifest_tests PASS and svn status -u ok
14:20 Coke huh.  svn pg svn:ignore https://svn.parrot.org/parrot/trunk/tools/build agrees with you.
14:21 Coke but my svn:ignore on that dir says otherwise, and 'svn st' shows no local modifications.
14:26 Coke yah. something about my checkout was fubar; it's the directory I originally did one_make in, but I didn't do the final merge to trunk, so:
14:26 Coke svn--
14:27 mikehh I actually use different directories for tests on gcc/g++ (with or without --optimize) and every so often do a clean checkout
14:28 mikehh and a bunch of branch directories as well
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14:37 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#32036), fulltest) at r43702 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (g++ with --optimize)
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15:12 whiteknight bacek: ping
15:14 whiteknight darbelo: ping
15:15 darbelo whiteknight: pong
15:15 whiteknight darbelo: what's the status on the freeze branch?
15:15 darbelo Same as yesterday ;)
15:15 darbelo It looks like it works.
15:16 whiteknight okay, I'm coretesting now
15:16 whiteknight very much looking forward to this branch
15:16 darbelo make test is passing, and all I saw on a  fulltest run were codingsdt failures.
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15:18 whiteknight I really need to add freeze/thaw support to the parrot-linear-algebra types
15:19 darbelo HLLs that implement their own PMCs in C will have to make adjustments to their vtables.
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15:20 davidfetter oh hai
15:24 whiteknight darbelo: yeah, that's why I haven't added freeze/thaw to those types yet.\
15:25 darbelo If you don't poke too deep into the struct all you should need is a signature change.
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15:34 dalek matrixy: 5bcfee0 | Whiteknight++ | t/2-function.t:
15:34 dalek matrixy: fix the number of functions tests from 8
15:34 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/5bcfee07113a23144dedb73062414914aea45f4d
15:34 whiteknight darbelo: in branch, all tests pass in parrot-linear-algebra
15:35 whiteknight testing matrixy now
15:35 darbelo Excelent.
15:35 whiteknight is there any way to get the ImageIO PMC from PIR now?
15:37 darbelo Not yet. Unless you want to create it by hand.
15:37 whiteknight okay, so next step is to add a variant of the freeze opcode that returns P
15:38 darbelo Yes, but it's not entirely useful yet.
15:38 whiteknight ok
15:39 whiteknight it can be made useful in a week if we wanted
15:39 whiteknight matrixy passes all tests
15:39 darbelo whiteknight: Yes, this should be much easier to refactor now.
15:40 whiteknight that whole subsystem needs an overhaul: renaming functions, refactors, cleanups, etc
15:40 whiteknight a freeze_cleanups branch might be a nice thing to start immediately after this one lands
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15:48 davidfetter hello
15:49 * davidfetter gesticulates wildly
15:49 whiteknight hello davidfetter
15:49 davidfetter is there some way to make a generic NCI API that would be a "plugin" to HLLs?
15:49 darbelo How generic?
15:49 davidfetter well, it's wrappers around pg's SPI (and possibly a few other, but all known) functions
15:50 davidfetter this would be for PL/Parrot
15:50 davidfetter fun as writing PL/PIR will be, i don't expect that to drive adoption
15:51 Coke (generic NCI API that is a plugin)... don't we already have that?
15:51 Coke (in core, that is?)
15:51 davidfetter well, that was what i'm wondering about
15:52 darbelo davidfetter: http://code.google.com/p/parrot-mysql/ ?
15:53 darbelo Yeah, I know, wrong db :)
15:53 darbelo But did you mean something like that?
15:53 davidfetter vaguely
15:54 davidfetter but i want it to actually work
15:54 davidfetter after years of experience around mysql, i do not assume that anything advertised has even been built, let alone actually works at any level
16:02 whiteknight darbelo: all codetests pass in pmc_freeze_with_pmcs after r43704
16:02 whiteknight merge that sucker
16:02 darbelo whiteknight++
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16:09 whiteknight most of the functions in src/pmc_freeze.c can just disappear now, I think
16:10 whiteknight or, with small effort
16:11 dalek parrot: r43703 | whiteknight++ | branches/pmc_freeze_with_pmcs/src/hash.c:
16:11 dalek parrot: fix codestd failure in src/hash.c
16:11 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43703/
16:11 dalek parrot: r43704 | whiteknight++ | branches/pmc_freeze_with_pmcs/src/pmc_freeze.c:
16:11 dalek parrot: fix codetest failure in src/pmc_freeze.c. All codetests pass
16:11 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43704/
16:33 bluescreen joined #parrot
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16:45 bluescreen joined #parrot
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17:24 darbelo svn--
17:27 mikehh joined #parrot
17:36 whiteknight Coke: ping
17:37 whiteknight anybody else here on a mac?
17:37 darbelo This merge is full of conflicts on files *I've never touched* WTF?
17:38 whiteknight great
17:38 whiteknight did you merge into your branch from trunk?
17:38 darbelo whiteknight: Yeah, right after array died.
17:38 whiteknight that could be the problem
17:39 whiteknight svn does not like doing logical things like updating a branch to trunk
17:39 darbelo Wasn't svn sprinkling cute props all over in over to be smarter about that?
17:41 darbelo Ohh, this is excelent. It's showing conflicts over files that aren't present on *either* side of the merge.
17:41 rdice joined #parrot
17:41 darbelo This is retarded.
17:41 japhb__ (reasons we should have switched to git a year ago) += 1
17:42 darbelo japhb__: you missed a few zeros after that one.
17:42 cotto If you want to help, you could set up a trac instance to test how well the git plugin works with svn integration.
17:43 cotto That'll be the big blocker when it comes time to switch afaict.
17:43 * cotto goes to work
17:45 estrabd joined #parrot
17:45 whiteknight how do I make an exception handler that DOES NOT handle die exceptions?
17:48 NotFound whiteknight: only die, or just sverity less than die?
17:48 whiteknight when I say "die" I want the exception to be unhandled and I want the program to exit
17:49 NotFound whiteknight: AFAIk there is no way to distinguish if the exception comes from die or for throw.
17:53 whiteknight ok
18:01 theory joined #parrot
18:13 wagle joined #parrot
18:14 Coke whiteknight: pong
18:14 whiteknight Coke: are you on a mac now?
18:14 Coke whiteknight: I don't currently have a mac.
18:14 whiteknight oh, damnit
18:15 whiteknight ls
18:15 Coke sorry, "a mac with gcc."
18:15 Coke but I knew that's what you needed. =-)
18:15 whiteknight I just need a mac with parrot on it
18:15 whiteknight how parrot got there, I don't care
18:16 darbelo "I'm sorry sir, but I have no idea how that parrot got here."
18:17 NotFound BTW, someone has build parrot on Maemo?
18:20 szbalint anyone running parrot on arm lately?
18:25 darbelo We had reports of success, for some values of lately.
18:25 cotto_working #ps in 125
18:26 darbelo The new schedule, right?
18:26 cotto_working yup
18:29 * szbalint wants to be the first person to get Parrot and Perl 6 up and running on a Nokia N900
18:29 * darbelo starts considering git-svn
18:33 NotFound szbalint: I've just ordered today a N900, hope can help with testing at least.
18:34 szbalint I need to hurry up then =)
18:34 cotto_working I have to wonder how much less painful git-svn would be.
18:34 szbalint you're still mostly chained to svn for collaboration
18:36 darbelo If I'm not chained to svn for merging, I'm happy.
18:36 NotFound szabgab: Don't worry, most probably I'll try to port my Basic interpreter before attempting something with parrot.
18:36 NotFound Or any other of my crazy retrocomputing projects.
18:37 szabgab NotFound, http://www.flickr.com/photos/szbalint/3812328050/
18:37 NotFound szabgab: Ok :D
18:37 allison joined #parrot
18:37 szabgab :-)
18:37 Coke parrotsketch?
18:38 Coke curse you, purl.
18:38 allison delayed by two hours at last email message
18:38 darbelo Coke: It got movet to later.
18:38 Coke darbelo: I know.
18:38 Coke I was making sure purl was updated.
18:38 darbelo Purl is dead.
18:38 Coke (Did you see I responded to the email on the list?)
18:39 allison ah, just saw it now
18:39 * darbelo checks
18:39 darbelo Oh yes you did.
18:39 darbelo And I saw it too.
18:39 allison (had seen a bunch of replies this morning when I checked)
18:39 allison good idea to update the calendar
18:40 Coke allison: I'm going to tell robrt to go ahead and kill piper. (tweety is already dead.)
18:40 Coke sokay?
18:42 Coke anyone?
18:42 allison sounds good
18:43 Coke sent.
18:43 Coke Once I get word back, I'll ping the list.
18:50 plobsing joined #parrot
18:50 davidfetter joined #parrot
18:56 dalek matrixy: 608798f | Whiteknight++ |  (2 files):
18:56 dalek matrixy: update the computer() builtin to have the correct behavior. No tests for it, pending a strategy for doing it
18:57 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/608798f6abb3cb57acb66d7f64fe9df5bb9e569c
18:57 dalek matrixy: 38bc659 | Whiteknight++ |  (2 files):
18:57 dalek matrixy: fix small problem in filesep
18:57 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/38bc6595d5ac1a01f1b1d3056e0ea9be97eb94a2
18:57 dalek matrixy: ee102b7 | Whiteknight++ |  (5 files):
18:57 dalek matrixy: refactor the way we handle quit() so that it actually works from interactive mode. exit() is now a toolbox function that calls quit, instead of a builtin
18:57 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/ee102b71d508e9a1a48f26a3f040cfe532f4b5cd
18:57 dalek matrixy: 50686c2 | Whiteknight++ | src/builtins/quit.pir:
18:57 dalek matrixy: some expansions in quit(), mostly TODO notes to bring it up to standard
18:57 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/50686c25d2f5cf6413a0b2bcd18aba29074ea8d5
18:57 dalek matrixy: bc99ce8 | Whiteknight++ | t/functions/filesep.t:
18:57 dalek matrixy: add a test for filesep
18:57 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/bc99ce876407c54aa088ba0ec030531f821154dd
18:57 dalek matrixy: 2704312 | Whiteknight++ | toolbox/is (3 files):
18:57 dalek matrixy: add isunix, ismac, ispc functions. No tests yet
18:57 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/2704312f6a24d42cf32f5f9b75f0d43f08ebef02
18:59 chromatic joined #parrot
19:00 SamuraiJack joined #parrot
19:04 japhb__ plobsing, Is there a doc somewhere that details what nativecall.pir brings to the table?
19:05 japhb__ Meaning, what can it do that the earlier code could not?
19:05 estrabd joined #parrot
19:06 japhb joined #parrot
19:09 athomason joined #parrot
19:10 whiteknight darbelo: ping
19:10 darbelo whiteknight: pong
19:11 whiteknight darbelo: how easy would it be to freeze multiple PMCs and write them to a single file, and then get them back again?
19:12 darbelo You can do that now if you are willing to stick them into an array.
19:13 Coke does /anyone/ use ncigen?
19:13 darbelo Wasn't that needed by OpenGL?
19:14 tewk_ ncigen is my baby.  you want to chuck it?
19:15 tewk_ I still think its a cool idea, but the old pge was too slow parsing c, I need to see if the new regex engine is any faster.
19:16 Coke tewk_: see TT#338 - it's the only thing using tools/build/dynpmc.pl, and it's broken.
19:19 plobsing japhb__: there currently is not. I could throw it into NCITasklist if you want.
19:19 whiteknight ah, I hadn't thought of that. Putting it into an array is a good idea
19:19 japhb plobsing, please do, thank you.
19:19 whiteknight a hash might be better, for matrixy's needs though
19:20 Tene Coke: every time I tried to use it, it wasn't able to handle the .h files I wanted to parse.
19:20 tewk_ Coke, I don't think it uses dynpmc.pl, that is just cut and paste Makefile stuff
19:21 japhb darbelo, OpenGL works (unless someone changed it while I was out) by writing a massive list of entries to call_list.txt (or rather, to files that feed into it).
19:21 japhb (during configure)
19:22 japhb I would be extra-double-plus happy if OpenGL could move out of core, but currently, it can't (and still work).
19:24 Coke japhb: why not?
19:24 Coke oh, because you need call_list updated?
19:24 japhb Coke: exactly
19:25 Coke I think the long term goal s to make call_list obsolete.
19:25 japhb Nod.
19:25 Coke tewk_: it's in there. perhaps the rule that uses it is never invoked.
19:25 Coke lemme see if I can rip it out.
19:25 plobsing japhb: my long term goal with the nativecall.pl rewrite is to eliminate the need for call_list
19:26 japhb plobsing, excellent.  The shorter term that goal is, the better.  ;-)
19:26 tewk_ Coke, nopaste comming
19:27 whiteknight plobsing: how are you planning to do that?
19:27 Coke tewk_: already ripped it out.
19:27 tewk_ cool
19:27 tewk_ whiteknight, libjit I'm guessing?
19:28 tewk_ libffi could also do it too
19:30 plobsing whiteknight: not exactly. can be done with static thunk libraries
19:30 plobsing writing plans in NCITasklist as we speak
19:34 plobsing AFK
19:35 Coke NotFound: any reason not to apply tt# 918 now?
19:36 chromatic +1 to applying it now
19:37 NotFound Coke: deprecation notice says 2.1
19:37 Coke NotFound: yes. that's now.
19:37 NotFound Oh... yes, confused again %-)
19:38 Coke I've got it applied locally and am running a test.
19:38 NotFound Will do, then.
19:38 Coke excellent.
19:38 Coke all tests pass.
19:40 Coke darbelo: what TT is that for?
19:40 Coke (pmc_freeze)
19:41 mikehh bah need a re-boot bbiab
19:41 Coke also, test failures following your merge.
19:41 darbelo Can't remember the number. Let me check.
19:41 Coke ... did you not run make test?
19:41 darbelo I ran make fulltest and it worked.
19:42 Coke smells like a PBC_COMPAT probem.
19:42 darbelo Bumped that, and regenerated native pbcs before merging.
19:43 dalek TT #338 closed by coke++: deprecated: dynoplibs.pl and dynpmc.pl
19:43 dalek tracwiki: v5 | plobsing++ | NCITasklist
19:43 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/N​CITasklist?version=5&action=diff
19:44 Coke http://developers.facebook.com​/news.php?blog=1&story=358
19:44 mikehh joined #parrot
19:44 Coke ok. realclean required after your mergeback. thbbthp.
19:44 Coke realclean--
19:45 Coke (facebook URL is about a PHP -> C++ code transformer facebook wrote.)
19:45 dalek parrot: r43705 | coke++ | trunk (6 files):
19:46 Coke dalek, keep up , buddy.
19:46 mikehh still no purl - who is purl's mentor?
19:46 dalek parrot: Remove tools/build/dynpmc.pl, resolve TT#338
19:46 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43705/
19:46 dalek parrot: r43706 | darbelo++ | failed to fetch changeset:
19:46 dalek parrot: Merge pmc_freeze_with_pmcs into trunk.
19:47 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43706/
19:47 Coke hachi.
19:47 Coke IIRC.
19:50 chromatic Sounds right.
19:52 mikehh joined #parrot
19:53 mikehh my internet connection is causing problems - going to restart it - bbiab
19:54 * Coke ughs, as he remembers why he didn't convert dynpmc to a non-recursive makefile earlier.
19:55 particle joined #parrot
19:55 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: e7d84d6 | Whiteknight++ | README:
19:55 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: update README to use the new setup.pir utility from fperrad++
19:55 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/parrot-linear-algebr​a/commit/e7d84d66ea28da849220add274865735a10585a1
19:55 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: 4d57990 | Whiteknight++ | src/pmc/ (2 files):
19:55 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: add initial freeze/thaw prototype code for NumMatrix2D. This requires pmc_freeze_with_pmcs branch, which isn't merged into Parrot trunk yet. Will have to set a minimum parrot version once that merges
19:55 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/parrot-linear-algebr​a/commit/4d579909ce466af676d9831c8a6988ea30878def
19:56 darbelo Coke: pmc_freeze was TT #1305
19:56 darbelo just closed it.
19:57 Coke darbelo: don't forget to update DEPRECATED.pod
19:57 darbelo I thought I had done that in the branch...
19:59 Coke doesn't look like it made it to trunk.
19:59 darbelo It will after you svn up ;)
20:00 dalek TT #1305 closed by darbelo++: [DEPRECATION] The IMAGE_IO structure.
20:02 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: 275596f | Whiteknight++ |  (2 files):
20:02 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: add a PARROTREVISION file with minimum required Parrot svn revision number
20:02 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/parrot-linear-algebr​a/commit/275596f5acaf3da9bb592f1799f5894acd96df29
20:03 darbelo fperrad: ping
20:04 dalek parrot: r43707 | darbelo++ | branches/pmc_freeze_with_pmcs:
20:04 dalek parrot: Branch merged into trunk and is no longer needed.
20:04 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43707/
20:04 dalek parrot: r43708 | darbelo++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
20:04 dalek parrot: The visit_info structure is no more. Remove it from DEPRECATED.pod
20:04 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43708/
20:06 iblechbot joined #parrot
20:13 Coke any web developers here? http://anthonycalzadilla.com/css3-ATAT/index.html
20:13 NotFound t/tools/pgegrep.t segfaults in amd64 built with c++
20:16 jan joined #parrot
20:17 Coke chromatic: I had a few links I had meant to send you about modern perl and version numbers, so you could comment on them in a kibo-like fashion. I've lost them. :(
20:19 kurahaupo joined #parrot
20:20 chromatic Pity!
20:20 dalek parrot: r43709 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/pmc/imageio.pmc:
20:20 dalek parrot: [cage] add a cast to make c++ happy
20:20 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43709/
20:20 darbelo Aw. I thought I had gotten all of those.
20:21 Coke chromatic: I'll try harder not to lose them next time.
20:21 cotto_working #ps in 9
20:22 NotFound from outer space
20:28 whiteknight allison: I have a question for you about the get_results refactor
20:29 chromatic Where's the wiki page with our December 2.3 planning notes?
20:29 whiteknight did we have a page for it?
20:30 * darbelo recall a googe doc.
20:30 darbelo ps in 0
20:30 chromatic I have the spreadsheet; I can't find the wiki page or the mail.
20:31 allison there was a google doc, wasn't that all we did?
20:32 chromatic Maybe so.  I only see the spreadsheet we made beforehand though.
20:33 allison chromatic: we edited it in session
20:33 estrabd joined #parrot
20:35 dalek tracwiki: v18 | allison++ | CallingConventionsTasklist
20:35 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/CallingCo​nventionsTasklist?version=18&action=diff
20:35 dalek tracwiki: v19 | allison++ | CallingConventionsTasklist
20:35 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/CallingCo​nventionsTasklist?version=19&action=diff
20:35 chromatic That doesn't look like the list though.
20:36 dalek parrot: r43710 | NotFound++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/PMCEmitter.pm:
20:36 dalek parrot: [pmc] generate a static function from custom class_init instead of inserting the code into the generated one, TT #918
20:36 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43710/
20:36 whiteknight allison: after the returns refactor, how would a function get information about expected returns?
20:37 Tene whiteknight: out-of-band
20:37 whiteknight out-of-band?
20:37 Tene I'll try again.
20:38 Tene the same way it could get information about expected type constraints on its returns.
20:38 allison whiteknight: something like a "set_wants" opcode, or the ability to set return expectations on the context
20:38 allison (the CallContext, which is both the call signature and the context)
20:38 whiteknight allison, ah, okay
20:39 allison I didn't specify the interface because I figure we need to talk that over with the language devs and see what's most useful to them
20:39 allison but, I'll go add a bullet point now, so we make sure to get language input before the branch lands
20:40 whiteknight gotcha. Matrixy definitely is going to want to have information about expected return arguments. Has very complicated handling of variadic output arguments
20:40 Topic for #parrotis now Parrot 2.0.0 "Inevitable" released! | http://parrot.org | Priorities: deprecated core PMCs, ops -> dynops, GC tuning and implementation | Roadmap: http://icanhaz.com/parrotroadmap | Latest modified TT's: http://icanhaz.com/parrotbugs
20:42 joeri joined #parrot
20:45 purl joined #parrot
20:50 whiteknight Tene: Okay, I think I have a better handle on it. I suspect it could be very easy to do by adding a method to the CallContext PMC
20:50 Tene whiteknight: let me give you an example of the functionality this is hoped to handle.
20:51 estrabd_ joined #parrot
20:51 Tene In Perl 6, when there's an error in normal cases, it's saved in the lexical variable $!, which will hold all of the errors that happened in that block.  At the end of the block, or any other way of leaving it, $! is checked for these unthrown exceptions, and if any of them haven't been handled, they're actually thrown.
21:02 bacek joined #parrot
21:05 bacek joined #parrot
21:12 PerlJam Coke++
21:13 dalek matrixy: 1fa3691 | Whiteknight++ | src/parser/grammar-plan.txt:
21:13 dalek matrixy: update the plan for the parser refactor
21:13 dalek matrixy: review: http://github.com/Whiteknight/matrixy/commi​t/1fa36915a09fe4b576d2f782d7a6212ae9be4a99
21:18 AndChat| joined #parrot
21:22 Coke so, docs is easy enough to update to non-recursive make. dynopslib and dynpmc both require makefile preprocessing, so I'm going to have to generate their .mak files.
21:23 dalek TT #679 closed by coke++: Hash changes to AssociativePMCArray
21:24 NotFound Not so easy the performance test with Winxed, I must improve some type propagation in expressions in Winxed first.
21:24 rdice joined #parrot
21:25 * plobsing just missed #ps. darn.
21:25 dalek parrot: r43711 | coke++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
21:25 dalek parrot: Ticket rejected, remove notice.
21:25 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/43711/
21:25 darbelo joined #parrot
21:25 Coke I'm very interested to see the performance differences. I think that'll definitely help focus dev efforts constructively.
21:26 payload joined #parrot
21:26 NotFound Coke: and I'm very interested in having Winxed doing the right thing, expect some results soon.
21:27 NotFound Anyway, a pure pir equivalent will not be so hard.
21:36 jan joined #parrot
21:39 dalek winxed: r395 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
21:39 dalek winxed: size in array declarations lacked optimize step in stage 1, fixed
21:39 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=395
21:41 dalek tracwiki: v6 | plobsing++ | NCITasklist
21:41 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/N​CITasklist?version=6&action=diff
21:41 jan joined #parrot
21:43 NotFound Unintuitively, with pmc array is a lot faster than with integer array, and I'm not sure ye if it's winxed fault.
21:43 NotFound I'll try a pir version first.
21:45 AndChat| It's not doing lots of shift & unshift by any chance?
21:45 NotFound Just populating the array and adding his elements several times
21:50 jan joined #parrot
21:55 joeri joined #parrot
21:56 nopaste "NotFound" at 213.96.228.50 pasted "Simple speed comparaison FixedIntegerArray vs FixedPMCArray" (45 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/19450
21:58 preflex joined #parrot
21:58 NotFound Coke: ping
21:59 Coke pong.
21:59 NotFound Coke: here is a simple comparaison
21:59 NotFound The last nopaste
21:59 purl well, the last nopaste is for shared lib... dynamic linking
22:02 Coke you must have a fast machine. =-)
22:03 nopaste "coke" at 65.91.151.195 pasted "With a slight modification to" (21 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/19451
22:03 NotFound Not so bad :)
22:03 Coke I thought moritz's machine was fast, but you're running in it 20% of the time his does.
22:04 Coke 2.592/2.726
22:04 purl 0.950843727072634
22:04 Coke 2.726/2.788
22:04 purl 0.977761836441894
22:04 Coke .541/.692
22:04 purl 0.781791907514451
22:04 Coke your speedup is more dramatic.
22:05 NotFound Is a Intel Qaud Q6700 with Debian amd64
22:05 NotFound Quad
22:07 NotFound Uh... not, those results are from the laptop...
22:08 NotFound Intel Dual T3200 with Ubuntu 32
22:10 NotFound On the big, less differences, but I have an unoptimized build rigth now.
22:11 allison joined #parrot
22:16 NotFound Optimized: PMC user 0m0.428s - Integer user 0m0.368s
22:17 chromatic How about a Callgrind comparison?
22:18 NotFound chromatic: I gently leave that part for you ;)
22:25 chromatic Won't be today sadly!
22:26 cotto_working It's not hard.  I'll give it a shot.
22:26 NotFound Coke: please nopaste your version, to use we all the same code
22:27 hercynium joined #parrot
22:31 dukeleto i think #plparrot sketch it starting now, if anybody wants to join #plparrot on fleanode
22:31 szbalint fleanode++
22:38 cotto_working NotFound, here you go
22:38 cotto_working http://nopaste.snit.ch/19452
22:41 chromatic 8.455% faster using FIA with an optimized Parrot.
22:42 NotFound The differences between optimized and non optimized versions are impressive
22:42 chromatic Much of that is no more PARROT_ASSERT
22:42 cotto_working I was surprised.
22:42 NotFound Aye
22:51 patspam joined #parrot
22:53 darbelo purl: msg fperrad See http://nopaste.snit.ch/19453 for fixes to lua after the pmc_freeze_with_pmcs merge
22:53 purl Message for fperrad stored.
23:08 cotto_w0rk joined #parrot
23:09 cotto_work joined #parrot
23:12 darbelo Hm. How is taking care of LOLCODE this days ?
23:12 darbelo s/How/Who/
23:17 Tene Me, allegedly.
23:17 Tene I haven't actually done it, but I wrote it, and I should be listed as maintainer.
23:18 darbelo You have a failing test, then.
23:19 darbelo test 6 of t/01-vars.t fails for me on OpenBSD with the latest trunk.
23:23 Tene Yeah, I don't think that one has ever passed.
23:24 darbelo I'm making a round of HLL testing after the pmc_freeze_with_pmcs merge and noticed that.
23:24 darbelo Figured I'd let you know.
23:25 Whiteknight joined #parrot
23:27 Tene Thank you.
23:28 Tene It's great to hear that it still lives. :)
23:28 Tene I really need to go through and update all the languages to the new HLL interop specs.
23:28 Tene I had everything working between several languages, and then it changed. :)
23:29 darbelo Not only it lives, but it also might get some attention from the PL/Parrot crowd once that get going.
23:32 dalek decnum-dynpmcs: r195 | darbelo++ | trunk/src/pmc/decnum (2 files):
23:32 dalek decnum-dynpmcs: Update the freeze() and thaw() VTABLEs to the new signatures.
23:32 dalek decnum-dynpmcs: review: http://code.google.com/p/decnu​m-dynpmcs/source/detail?r=195
23:37 dukeleto PL/Parrot folks have been talking about using LOLCODE as our first HLL
23:41 Tene I'd be glad to help with whatever needs to happen there.
23:56 eternaleye joined #parrot

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