Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-04-04

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 chromatic I don't believe I've ever met dmr.
00:01 dalek rakudo: 03f210f | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
00:01 dalek rakudo: Fix RT#73886.
00:01 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​3f210fe09ea1b1239f859bd0beec86d773d97df
00:01 dngor joined #parrot
00:05 Whiteknight dmr?
00:05 purl rumour has it dmr is Dennis Ritchie, author of Unix and C; he is our Grey Eminence, and King. or at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/
00:06 Whiteknight "look, it's all objects all the way down. Until you reach turtles."
00:12 chromatic Simon Cozens wrote an NFG prototype in Perl 6 a couple of years ago.
00:15 lucian joined #parrot
00:16 darbelo Is that the one in the really old strings branch in the repo?
00:16 chromatic I'm not sure where it is.
00:18 darbelo There is also a perl snippet in the PDD, I'm guessing it came from the same place.
00:19 darbelo It's the bit that suggests the array+hash implementation, and shows some perl to that effect.
00:21 Whiteknight darbelo: yes, the strings branch was it
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01:16 dalek rakudo: 1068f2e | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
01:16 dalek rakudo: Turn on S02-literals/hash-interpolation.t.
01:16 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​068f2efa70a2e244e4150b7c66ab4ea7f44f68c
01:28 dalek rakudo: 1094cf3 | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
01:28 dalek rakudo: Turn back on S02-literals/misc-interpolation.t.
01:28 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​094cf34ec9c6727d7f091049a2304ad984156c0
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02:10 dalek rakudo: 32fda13 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
02:10 dalek rakudo: A :my declaration in a regex prevents the current protoregex implementation spotting constant prefixes that immediately follow it. By a little re-ordering, we can shave about 5% off the time to compile the setting by allowing those constant prefixes to be spotted and computed, since we don't have to chase down a bunch of false branches.
02:10 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​2fda13bc1cbde5bf2eaa49511fc6101efe63536
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04:17 sorear Why are languages/ separated from libraries/ ?
04:18 Austin Because it seemed like a good idea once upon a time, and now there aren't any failing test cases that suggest the need to unseparate them?
04:18 darbelo Actually, we don't even have languages/ anymore.
04:19 Austin We don't?
04:19 darbelo They got kicked out of the repo a long time ago.
04:19 Austin I think he means runtime/
04:20 darbelo That looks like a leftover to me.
04:20 dalek parrot: r45399 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/pmc/fixedpmcarray.pmc:
04:20 dalek parrot: [PMC] Removed unnecessary callocs from FixedPMCArray.
04:20 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/45399/
04:20 dalek parrot: r45400 | chromatic++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Ops2c/Utils.pm:
04:20 dalek parrot: [lib] Removed an unnecessary calloc from ops initialization.
04:20 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/45400/
04:20 Austin Heh
04:21 Austin languages/parrot
04:21 darbelo Yep. It only holds that file. The 'parrot' HLL.
04:22 darbelo I think that's a part of the HLL-interop stuff.
04:23 darbelo Or maybe it's from Hll-interop's previous life.
04:23 darbelo # $Id: parrot.pir 39532 2009-06-13 06:03:55Z tene $
04:24 darbelo That's not old enough to be obsolete, but not new enough to be from the latest interop spec.
04:25 darbelo Don't worry. It will eventually die. Everything does.
04:27 sorear darbelo: I'm actually speaking of /usr/local/lib/parrot/2.2.0​-devel/{languages,library}
04:28 sorear the practical upshot of this is that pir::load_bytecode("nqp.pbc") doesn't work
04:28 sorear if I want to load a language dynamically (for use :from), I need to replicate the path search logic
04:28 sorear which seems wrong
04:29 darbelo I think it's a matter of 'languages are special'
04:29 sorear Why?
04:29 sorear They're just libraries.
04:29 sorear libperl.so installs into the same place as libgdbm.so
04:30 darbelo We don't give libraries their own executables.
04:31 darbelo Languges typically demand them.
04:31 sorear parwish?
04:32 sorear p6regex?
04:32 purl p6regex is deprecated anyway, and as per pmichaud's note to p-p yesterday I'm not planning to update it for the new pdd15oo model
04:32 darbelo Artifacts of history. Our install tree is a mess of old stuff we don't entirely know hot to straigten out.
04:33 sorear I don't actually know the history
04:33 sorear I'm just citing a library that should have an executable
04:33 sorear and a language that shouldn't
04:36 darbelo I'm not entirely clear on the history myself either. But I know that in the past (as in, over two HLL toolchains back) there were different expectations for what languages an libraries did.
04:37 darbelo As far as I can try to justify this: The stuff in library/ was theoretically not bound to any language.
04:38 darbelo A related tale to the runtime/parrot/* one in the source tree.
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04:40 darbelo Anyway. I should probably go to sleep now, I have hellspawn^W relatives visiting tomorrow.
04:41 cotto night
04:41 cotto happy relativity
04:42 darbelo 'Happy' is a relative term...
04:42 * darbelo Zzz
04:42 cotto I never said who'd be happy
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06:00 sorear http://pastie.org/902402 <- Can anyone explain what's going on here?
06:00 sorear If I load NQP, then Blizkost - OK
06:00 sorear If I load Rakudo, then Blizkost - Error
06:01 sorear If I load Rakudo, then NQP, then Blizkost - also Error, so not a missing dependancy
06:02 Austin Rakudo is defining a symbol that PCT wants to be a class, as something not a class. Probably something down in the regex/PGE space.
06:03 Austin Actually, it probably springs from the "perl6;PCT"
06:03 Austin Looks like something isn't handling the transition from hll=parrot to hll=perl6.
06:04 Austin Alternatively, maybe it's a cross-language thing, and some class needs to be declared with hll='parrot' or hll='perl6'
06:04 Austin Does it work if you don't load the perl5 bytecode?
06:06 sorear My goal is to load perl5 into Rakudo.  Not loading perl5 would be automatic failure.
06:06 Austin Jeez
06:06 sorear Oh
06:07 sorear No, loading NQP alone also gives the error
06:07 Austin So it's nothing to do with your stuff? That's a win - file a bug.
06:09 Austin Given that the PCT stuff is being loaded in rakudo, do you even need to load the nqp stuff?
06:10 sorear No, I just did it as a test to root out missing deps
06:10 sorear which was my first theory
06:10 sorear this looks probably like a parrot bug so I'll file it there
06:10 sorear Parrot has both a RT queue and a Trac instance; which do I file bugs on?
06:11 Austin Trac
06:11 Austin RT is dead, has been for years.
06:12 sorear hmm, I need to register to add a ticket?
06:13 Austin I think so
06:15 Austin Ahh! Ugly blue woman!
06:21 sorear uhhh
06:21 sorear this is /extra weird/
06:21 sorear if I use perl6 --target=pir
06:21 sorear then run parrot on the resulting pir
06:21 sorear it WORKS
06:21 Austin Sure.
06:21 Austin Because perl6 isn't in the way.
06:22 Austin When you're running perl6 as an interpreter, all the perl6-y goodness is sitting in the VM with you.
06:22 Austin When you run it as a compiler, you get a pir file that doesn't have all the stuff. (You'll need to load it if you want it.) So no problem.
06:23 sorear What can loading perl6 do to cause 'perl6;PCT;__onload' to be called?
06:24 sorear that seems like a pretty basic Parrot failure
06:24 sorear and I have no idea how to start debugging this
06:24 sorear or even know which tracker to put it on
06:44 dalek TT #1542 created by sorear++: HLLs sometimes leak into loaded modules
06:44 dalek TT #1542: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1542
07:26 sorear Do classes ever get garbage collected?
07:27 Austin In theory, sure. In practice, I doubt it.
07:27 Austin The namespaces probably keep them alive forever.
07:30 sorear I'm wondering because PMC code refers to them using small integers and never calls any marking thing
07:32 dalek blizkost: 4c0982a | sorear++ | src/pmc/p5 (2 files):
07:32 dalek blizkost: Require creation of P5Namespace through proper channels
07:32 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​4c0982aaf2829e42074e04cfd7fa3170c97c5f36
07:50 sorear 7 files changed, 9 insertions(+), 106 deletions(-)
07:50 sorear with no loss of functionality
07:53 Austin Eventually you'll be down to just one:
07:53 Austin dwim();
07:54 sorear dwim usually breaks
07:54 sorear dwiw is much better
07:56 dalek blizkost: 9e586b0 | sorear++ | src/pmc/ (8 files):
07:56 dalek blizkost: Centralize P5/Parrot header cruft in one file
07:56 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​9e586b09bca2434bc0344f71a61f1a655f407420
08:08 dalek blizkost: e7d4b67 | sorear++ | src/pmc/blizkost.h:
08:08 dalek blizkost: Quiet all redefinition warnings.
08:08 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​e7d4b671fd03e0f4191f42a809c61d67a626796f
08:10 sorear #define char const char
08:34 sorear cranking the warning level up to 11 screws with perl.h
08:35 sorear #define dNOOP extern int /*@unused@*/ Perl___notused PERL_UNUSED_DECL /* but we use -Wnested-externs
08:37 dalek blizkost: 1f52187 | sorear++ | src/pmc/p5interpreter.pmc:
08:37 dalek blizkost: Fix a bunch of warnings in p5interpreter
08:37 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​1f521877f3f8d9ca255c99aa957f2ec39bc3bdb0
08:43 dalek blizkost: 365279e | sorear++ | src/pmc/blizkost.h:
08:43 dalek blizkost: Add a Parrot-warnings-clean refinition of dNOOP
08:43 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​365279e073c993ea347cfff93624bfe540b88ee8
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09:11 dalek blizkost: cf14185 | sorear++ | src/pmc/ (6 files):
09:11 dalek blizkost: Migrate to auto_attrs
09:11 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​cf14185690790f42bb511b0df1413805cdcacfe6
09:12 sorear blizkost is now warning free.
09:17 sorear why doesn't nqp have hash literals?
09:28 sorear purl: msg dukeleto, I just noticed Blizkost doesn't have a license!  Is Artistic 2.0 (same as Parrot) acceptable to you?
09:28 purl Sorry, I've never seen dukeleto, before.
09:28 sorear purl: msg dukeleto - I just noticed Blizkost doesn't have a license!  Is Artistic 2.0 (same as Parrot) acceptable to you?
09:28 purl Message for dukeleto stored.
09:28 sorear seen fperrad
09:28 purl fperrad was last seen on #perlfr 16 hours, 31 minutes and 25 seconds ago, saying: > say("hello");
09:29 sorear purl: msg fperrad - I just noticed Blizkost doesn't have a license!  Is Artistic 2.0 (same as Parrot) acceptable to you?
09:29 purl Message for fperrad stored.
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10:24 sorear hey fperrad
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13:02 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#32998), fulltest) at r45400 - Ubuntu 10.04 beta amd64 (g++ with --optimize)
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13:03 hangulee hello!
13:18 moritz good localtime()
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13:37 dalek rakudo: 6fd5479 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/ (4 files):
13:37 dalek rakudo: Define Bridge method for the real types.
13:37 dalek rakudo: This is a cast type to a lingua franca bridge type for real numbers.  (Was called RealX in my blog posts on the subject.  Am open to better suggestions than Bridge, but wanted to get the concept working.)
13:37 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​fd547943a17ff7eae400df8d2fd727b93b3dfdc
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13:47 mikehh got to reboot - bbiab
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13:59 dalek rakudo: c570328 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
13:59 dalek rakudo: we do not actually pass export.t - no idea why I thought we did :( moritz--
13:59 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​57032833a43d25149dc95aef10d00f012d88d14
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16:09 dalek rakudo: 02cf9c3 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
16:09 dalek rakudo: we pass S03-operators/autovivification.t
16:09 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​2cf9c366372becf19ed400a4070efe207ff6760
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19:26 arnsholt How do I compare two PMC for identity (same pointer, essentially)?
19:26 arnsholt == doesn't seem to be it
19:31 sorear issame?
19:31 purl issame is supposed to simply determine if two PMC registers are the same PMC.
19:32 arnsholt Sounds like an excellent plan. Thanks!
19:32 sorear fperrad: ping
19:33 arnsholt That works. Thanks a bunch!
19:34 arnsholt The Parrotlog guts now have what seems to be working mark/cut =D
19:36 fperrad_ joined #parrot
19:37 darbelo Parrotlog?
19:37 purl Parrotlog is http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/
19:46 tcurtis Are there any more detailed NQP docs than the Grammar Actions chapter of the PCT book?
19:49 darbelo I don't know of any. The latest nqp is self-hosting, if you are willing to accept code for docs.
19:49 darbelo nqp-rx?
19:49 purl i think nqp-rx is http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx
19:52 darbelo I think pmichaud was working on some introductory nqp docs before getting sidetracked with rl issues.
19:52 darbelo But I don't know if that ever got posted to the internets.
19:52 sorear NQP is basically just the largest subset of Perl 6 that can run without library support
19:53 sorear with a few annoying omissions
19:53 sorear would anyone object if I added anonymous hash constructors to NQP?
19:53 sorear and :flat hash arguments?
19:54 darbelo Parrot treats it as an external component. We just pull from pmichaud's repo and ship it.
19:55 darbelo Now that I think of it, japhb was campaigning for those some time back.
19:56 darbelo I don't recall what kind of answer he got.
19:56 sorear the lack of them just bit me
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19:57 tcurtis I'm mainly wondering how close it is to PIR? Would NQP be to PIR as C is to assembly, as Perl is to assembly, or as Perl is to C? Or would none of those analogies be accurate?
19:59 sorear NQP is to PIR as C-- is to assembly
19:59 darbelo Except with a perlier sytax ;)
20:00 sorear I'd also like to add tailcalls and Q:PIR interpolations
20:08 arnsholt darbelo: Parrotlog is my (stil nascent) Prolog on Parrot project
20:08 arnsholt purl: parrotlog is http://github.com/arnsholt/parrotlog
20:08 purl ...but parrotlog is http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/...
20:08 arnsholt parrotlog?
20:08 purl parrotlog is http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/
20:10 moritz purl: parrotlog is also prolog on parrot by arnsholt++
20:10 moritz parrotlog?
20:10 purl it has been said that parrotlog is http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/
20:10 moritz argl
20:14 arnsholt Indeed
20:16 moritz purl: no, parrotlog is <reply>http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/ or prolog on parrot by arnsholt++
20:16 moritz purl, parrotlog?
20:16 purl parrotlog is http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/
20:16 * moritz gives up
20:17 arnsholt purl: help
20:17 purl #perl is not a help channel, and I'm not a help bot.  If you want Perl help, try #perl-help or #metallica. or (see the 'help channel' factoid as well) or
20:18 arnsholt purl: help purl
20:18 purl arnsholt: excuse me?
20:18 * arnsholt gives up too
20:22 tcurtis Isn't C-- intended for use purely as a compiler target? Wouldn't PIR be the C-- to PASM's assembly? C-- doesn't even have loops, no?
20:23 arnsholt PIR doesn't have loops either
20:23 arnsholt Only goto
20:24 tcurtis But, NQP does, doesn't it?
20:24 darbelo Yes, NQP is a full language.
20:25 darbelo Except for the no-library thing, that is.
20:26 moritz right; NQP intends to have no runtime
20:26 moritz (or just very, very little)
20:26 moritz except what parrot natively provides, of course
20:27 arnsholt NQP is a lot more practical to work with
20:28 arnsholt At least that's my feeling, but I've never really done any assembly programming either, so my opinion might not count that much =)
20:28 tcurtis sorear said that NQP is to PIR as C-- is to assembly. That confused me a bit, given how low-level C-- is.
20:31 arnsholt I suppose you could say that NQP is to Perl 6 as C-- is to C
20:34 darbelo I think sorear's point is that NQP isn't meant as a stand-alone language.
20:35 darbelo For example it has no runtime library, so it only does what parrot does.
20:36 darbelo It's a good language to write compilers in, but it lacks certain general purpose features that you would expect from a 'full' language.
20:37 darbelo Kiond of a "Perl 6 dressing up as a DSL" thing.
20:37 darbelo s/Kiond/Kind/
20:38 darbelo No, "A DSL dressing up as Perl 6" is more like it.
20:39 darbelo Of course, that hasn't stopped people from using it as a general purpose language at all.
20:39 darbelo See kakapo, or even plumage for an example of that.
20:45 tcurtis Would it be useful perhaps to have a language with a more general-purpose focus that mapped fairly closely to PIR?
20:46 darbelo If you map close enough to PIR, you end up with NQP in a different syntax.
20:46 darbelo How useful that would be I have no clue. I'm more of a vm guy.
20:49 darbelo NQP has no library, in part, because it maps pretty closely to PIR and parrot features.
20:52 darbelo But maybe I'm not really understanding your question.
20:52 dalek rakudo: 72fd9a8 | jonathan++ |  (12 files):
20:52 dalek rakudo: Run program bodies within the lexical scope of the setting. There's still some things that aren't going to work out just yet, but this is at least the first 80%. :-) Also fix up a $*SCOPE leakage that meant we accidentally the our-scope for many things that should have been has or my scoped. Please re-configure; this may also break some code that wasn't assuming lexical scope by default.
20:52 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​2fd9a82015b9e382ce32591a4f86d8a28d90ece
20:53 darbelo IMO, NQP hadles it's niche pretty well. That's all I'm trying to say.
20:55 darbelo s/hadles/handles/
21:05 arnsholt Can I make my NQP classes implement PMC vtable methods somehow?
21:06 tcurtis I think I'm just looking for an excuse to design a language and work on a Parrot compiler for it. But I think I'm going to instead look and see if it would be possible to rewrite the things in runtime/parrot/library in NQP without slowing things down. That seems more likely to be useful.
21:07 darbelo tcurtis: Please, don't let me discourage you. We *like* having plenty of languages.
21:09 darbelo Take Close for example, it's pretty much 'NQP with C syntax'.
21:09 darbelo And that is not a bad thing at all.
21:16 dalek rakudo: 33b0082 | jonathan++ | src/core/Any-list.pm:
21:16 dalek rakudo: Start to remove some our declarations, now that the setting lexically encloses the program.
21:16 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​3b0082fa7687d9483574bb37bd550b13b80bc07
21:29 darbelo That reminds me...
21:30 darbelo purl: msg Austin Hey, is Close still in development? Looks awfully quiet from over here.
21:30 purl Message for austin stored.
21:38 dalek rakudo: dc3ff3b | jonathan++ | src/core/Any-num.pm:
21:38 dalek rakudo: More removal of our.
21:38 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d​c3ff3b054cdcd13b912974301afa828b6d2214c
21:39 japhb Someone mentioned me/Plumage in regards to anon hash composers in NQP.
21:40 darbelo Kind of.
21:40 japhb This turned out to be somewhat painful to implement in NQP for deep reasons I don't entirely understand.
21:40 japhb So the canonical replacement is putting this function in your program:
21:40 japhb sub hash(*%h) { %h }
21:41 japhb And then use hash() rather than {} to compose hashes
21:41 darbelo Ah, sorear was asking about them, and I remembered that you had asked pmichaud to add them some time ago.
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21:43 japhb chromatic: Catching up on twitter, I noticed your comment a few days ago about making Rakudo compiles 5x faster.  That should be shouted from the rooftops in a lot of venues, if you haven't already (I haven't backlogged b.p.o or u.p.o yet)
21:43 japhb And what was the revision that had the change in it?
21:44 * darbelo climbs to his rooftop, idly wondering if his neighbour will care...
21:45 chromatic This was after we slowed it down some four times.
21:45 japhb Clearly if they don't, you need better neighbors.  ;-)
21:45 japhb oh. crap.
21:45 japhb sigh
21:45 chromatic r45367 was the speedup.
21:45 moritz still the memory usage was cut down by a factor of two if you combine those changes
21:46 japhb Here I was thinking the easter bunny brought something for dad ....
21:46 chromatic It's definitely faster than it was.
21:49 japhb Amazing how much difference the little things make
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21:55 chromatic A little thing done a few million times ceases to be a little thing.
21:56 dalek rakudo: c467c5c | jonathan++ | docs/ROADMAP:
21:56 dalek rakudo: Item assignment is done and tested, so move to done section of the ROADMAP.
21:56 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​467c5cf192e2c400d1da2d0c9b291d2e76c7fd3
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22:08 dalek rakudo: f5b18c9 | jonathan++ | src/core/A (2 files):
22:08 dalek rakudo: More removal of our; this is probably so far as we can go for now.
22:08 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​5b18c946db69c9e32695934955655f6366b82ed
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22:52 arnsholt ARG! Unification completely breaks my brain >.<
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23:11 dalek rakudo: c9db3d6 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
23:11 dalek rakudo: Fix use of %_ and @_ when they've been declared in a signature (or auto-included in the case of methods).
23:11 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​9db3d66250900c0aae608f680a49288adafbf04
23:44 ash_ joined #parrot
23:45 jsut_ joined #parrot
23:49 dalek blizkost: 4437dfe | sorear++ | CREDITS:
23:49 dalek blizkost: Fix a formatting error in CREDITS
23:49 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​4437dfe2d764eb05a881359f32398f9f5af3c641
23:49 dalek blizkost: b2347f6 | sorear++ | TODO:
23:49 dalek blizkost: Bring TODO up to date
23:49 dalek blizkost: review: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​b2347f6bd0635ed9f28caaca62d0ecaf2c9876fb
23:58 dukeleto 'ello

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