Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-09-18

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 sorear all of them were committed in the span of less than ten minutes
00:00 sorear probably dalek lost them because it works by polling rss
00:00 mikehh I think bacek++ overwhelmed dalek
00:01 sorear i.e. between two polling points, enough new commits were added for the first few to fall off the feed
00:03 mikehh I think we need to look into that, especially if parrot is moving to git soon
00:03 plobsing (1232028459 -  1211929522)/1232028459
00:04 purl 0.0163136953965444
00:04 aloha 0.0163136953965444
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00:13 sorear mikehh: I rather suspect bacek is already using git...
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00:22 mikehh sorear: yes - git-svn
00:42 dalek parrot: r49123 | mikehh++ | branches/gc_massacre/MANIFEST.SKIP:
00:42 dalek parrot: re-generate MANIFEST.SKIP
00:42 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49123/
00:43 dalek parrot: r49124 | mikehh++ | branches/gc_massacre/t/op/​testlib/test_strings.pir:
00:43 dalek parrot: add svn properties
00:43 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49124/
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00:45 mikehh bacek: ping
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00:49 plobsing tag, you're it.hashes are now the most expensive part of rakudo startup again.
00:59 dalek parrot: r49125 | plobsing++ | trunk (5 files):
00:59 dalek parrot: add ImageIOThaw PMC
00:59 dalek parrot: this is similar to ImageIO PMC, but only goes one way.
00:59 dalek parrot: also, uses pointer into immovable string in stead of index into string
00:59 dalek parrot: gets 1.6% improvement in rakudo startup
00:59 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49125/
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02:07 chromatic Looks like Parrot's overhead dropped by ~0.5 MB too.
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02:14 chromatic plobsing, ping
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02:31 furrykef What's the difference between PGE::Grammar and HLL::Grammar?
02:34 sorear PGE::Grammar is part of PGE, an old grammar framework which is no longer being maintained
02:34 sorear HLL::Grammar is part of nqp-rx, the replacement
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02:36 furrykef I see. The Parrot docs under "Grammar Engine" use PGE::Grammar
02:38 furrykef TBH I find Parrot's grammar system to be difficult to get into. I've written a Scheme parser (albeit incomplete) in pure Python, and I've messed around with lex/yacc before, but this stuff seems pretty hard with the current documentation
02:38 sorear yep
02:38 sorear there's a reason PGE was abandoned
02:39 furrykef Well, the thing is I can't seem to find complete documentation on the current way of doing things
02:40 sorear squaak tutorial ?
02:40 purl squaak tutorial is what you want
02:40 furrykef Ah, there's a tutorial to go with it?
02:41 furrykef Found it
02:41 furrykef Thanks
02:42 furrykef I'm amused there's a TonyC in this channel. The game company I work for also has a TonyC
02:42 furrykef Obviously a different one, though. Our Tony wouldn't know Parrot from a cockatoo
02:42 plobsing chromatic: pong
02:43 sorear furrykef: the most authoritative document on the nqp-rx grammar system is http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html
02:43 sorear nqp-rx is a subset of that by design
02:44 furrykef sorear - Yeah, I was using that page but for some reason it causes my Firefox to freeze up...
02:44 furrykef Maybe I'll use Chrome with it instead...
02:47 chromatic Idea: platform-native ImageIO PMC that inlines the specific "I know how to read bytecode on this platform" code, and a generic PMC that does the function pointer conversions.
02:47 furrykef What's a good pastebin? I always use pastebin.ca, but I sometimes get yelled at for using it and told to use another, but I always forget to... and I forget the alternatives that are usually offered
02:48 chromatic It may not be worth it right now, or ever, but it seems like an idea to think about at least.
02:48 plobsing chromatic: i already tried optimizing for  the platform native case by checking for it in shift_integer. problem is, the check made it more expensive.
02:49 plobsing but doing that once at the start might result in a win.
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02:53 plobsing furrykef: most people here use http://nopaste.snit.ch/ because parrot comes with a tool that uses it (tools/dev/nopaste.pl)
02:56 furrykef http://nopaste.snit.ch/23425 - OK, this is my first stab at a grammar for a subset of Scheme... how does it look?
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03:01 sorear I would write sexpr_body <expression>* [ '.' <expression> ]?
03:01 furrykef OK. Thanks
03:02 sorear that way (1 2 3 ... 998 999 . 1000) doesn't have to backtrack over and rematch all the items
03:09 furrykef I think I understand that
03:09 furrykef I guess I need to learn more about how this kind of parser works... I'm only vaguely familiar with parser generators in the first place
03:09 chromatic Once per PBC seems like a good frequency.
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03:14 dalek parrot: r49126 | plobsing++ | trunk/compilers/imcc (2 files):
03:14 dalek parrot: avoid making string versions of PCC signatures
03:14 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49126/
03:16 plobsing chromatic: we're not yet at the point where we are recycling deserializer objects
03:16 plobsing it would be nice to do, but we're not paying that much for them relatively
03:17 chromatic I'm thinking instead of avoiding the endianness and 32/64-bit size checks.
03:18 plobsing oh. those we do once per pbc, yes.
03:19 chromatic Sort of; we also pay the performance costs of runtime dispatch from function pointers.
03:20 plobsing function pointers aren't as bad as they're sometimes made out to be
03:21 plobsing pf->fetch_iv(stream) is faster than IS_NATIVE(pf) ? *stream : pf->fetch_iv(stream)
03:21 plobsing I always thought branching within functions was supposed to be fast
03:22 chromatic Not branching is faster.
03:22 sorear I think chromatic meant duplicating the entire PMC file
03:22 sorear and removing all the branches from one version
03:23 chromatic Right, have one PMC optimized for the native version and one PMC which performs the checks and branches for non-native versions.
03:23 chromatic ImageIONative would be 32-bit LE on my machine here for example.
03:23 chromatic It could be 64-bit LE on yours.
03:25 sorear Does anyone still use BE platforms?
03:25 plobsing kid51 uses ppc. is that be?
03:25 sorear ppc supports both at the ISA level, iirc
03:25 plobsing ooh fun
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03:31 dalek parrot: r49127 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/hash.c:
03:31 dalek parrot: [hash] Used more parrot_hash_get_bucket_string().
03:31 dalek parrot: Now parrot_hash_get_bucket() is shorter, and everyone cheers.
03:31 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49127/
03:31 dalek parrot: r49128 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/pmc/hash.pmc:
03:31 dalek parrot: [PMC] Optimized Hash's in get_pmc_keyed_str().
03:31 dalek parrot: Don't fetch buckets from an empty hash.
03:31 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49128/
03:31 dalek parrot: r49129 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/pmc/hash.pmc:
03:31 dalek parrot: [PMC] Removed Hash PMC's duplicate type check.
03:31 dalek parrot: parrot_hash_get_bucket() will do this already, so let it.
03:31 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49129/
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03:36 plobsing 30163020/1209230426
03:36 purl 0.024943980362598
03:36 aloha 0.024943980362598
03:36 plobsing chromatic: it's probably not worth it atm. ImageIOThaw.shift_integer only accounts for 2.5% of rakudo startup.
03:38 sorear We're using a vtable call FOR EVERY SINGLE INT IN THE PACKFILE!?
03:38 plobsing well yeah. how else do you want to be able to read packfiles in a more or less platform independant manner?
03:40 furrykef Endian: proof that when there is any possible way to make two systems incompatible, somebody will come up with it
03:41 sorear I dunno, wrap it in a macro and put it in include/parrot/*?
03:41 sorear anything we call
03:42 sorear 15000000 / 4
03:42 purl 3750000
03:42 aloha 3750000
03:43 plobsing sorear: macros would be quite unfriendly to non-native objects wanting to implement their own serialization
03:44 sorear non-native objects?
03:44 plobsing not to mention precluding any alternate serializers (eg: my parrot-deepclone project)
03:44 plobsing non-native = from PIR, NQP, Perl6 etc
03:45 sorear Why not both?  Should Sub be forced to use the same API as PIR?
03:45 plobsing why do both when any improvement you make to the status quo will be a slice out of 2.5% of startup
03:45 plobsing that's not a big pie to slice up
03:46 sorear How are you measuring that?
03:46 plobsing inclusive callgrind cost
03:48 dalek parrot: r49130 | plobsing++ | trunk (5 files):
03:48 dalek parrot: convert remaining imageio functionality to ImageIOFreeze for symmetry
03:48 purl I don't know how to convert remaining imageio functionality to ImageIOFreeze for symmetry.
03:48 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49130/
03:49 plobsing silly purl
03:49 purl LA LA LA LALAL CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA
04:00 purl was kicked by pmichaud: Now hear this.
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04:05 dalek parrot: r49131 | plobsing++ | trunk (3 files):
04:05 dalek parrot: make codingstd happier
04:05 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49131/
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04:29 chromatic optimizing that 2.5% for speed isn't too useful.  Could we get memory improvements?
04:31 plobsing what kinds of memory improvements?
04:31 chromatic Not sure.
04:32 chromatic Maybe PMCs could hand freeze/thaw a description of what they want instead of calling shift_integer/string directly and pass or get back a blob of memory.
04:32 chromatic In a Lorito world, maybe we can refer to the PBC directly (for constant PMCs).
04:34 chromatic It's a half baked idea at the moment and may not be useful.
04:35 plobsing I suppose you could create a sort of state-machine that would run on a blob per PMC
05:13 plobsing chromatic: I don't see how you could efficiently make the runtime and serialized representations be the same
05:13 plobsing freezing pointers doesn't work
05:13 dalek parrot: r49132 | plobsing++ | trunk/src/pmc/imageiothaw.pmc:
05:13 dalek parrot: fix unoptimized build
05:13 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49132/
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05:41 chromatic Assume we're not using C's memory model.
05:46 Tanami hi guys
05:46 Tanami I was interested in using parrot for a language I was making for personal use
05:47 Tanami is there anything I should know that isn't in the docs?
05:49 plobsing Tanami: yes, but if we could quantify it, it would probably be in the docs
05:49 chromatic Have you looked at the Squaak tutorial in the docs?
05:50 Tanami yes
05:50 Tanami it was pretty easy to follow
05:50 plobsing (1244112377 - 1208481770)/1244112377
05:50 purl 0.0286393798974319
05:50 aloha 0.0286393798974319
05:53 chromatic That's the best place to start.  Besides that, if there are any gaps in the docs, let us know and we'll work on them.
05:53 Tanami ok
06:02 chromatic That function has really paid off for us today.
06:03 plobsing chromatic: my numbers were inflated
06:03 chromatic I'll get numbers here too, but I can believe a point or two.
06:03 plobsing you made some changes that were less than kind to my optimizer's inlining heuristic and pushed my performance halfway back to where we started
06:04 dalek parrot: r49133 | plobsing++ | trunk/src/hash.c:
06:04 dalek parrot: assume serialized hashes do not contain duplicates.
06:04 dalek parrot: this avoids costly probing compares.
06:04 dalek parrot: 2.8% speedup to rakudo startup
06:04 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49133/
06:04 plobsing my change gets a significant boost from simply getting lucky with inlining
06:04 chromatic That's the fastest startup time I've seen in Rakudo ever, 0.834 wallclock.
06:05 chromatic Looks like 1.17% here.
06:06 plobsing that's a much more reasonable number
06:16 chromatic Does Sub's thaw() need to call SUPER(info)?
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06:37 dalek parrot: r49134 | chromatic++ | trunk/src/pmc/sub.pmc:
06:37 dalek parrot: [PMC] Optimized Sub PMC's thaw() slightly.
06:37 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49134/
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07:11 cotto plobsing, did you bump PBC_COMPAT after adding that pmc?
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08:07 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.8.0 will be released at "2010-09-21 08:00 UTC"  | parrot.org Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | close 25 tickets; remove deprecated items (especially CodeString); record deprecations; polish for 2.8 release
08:07 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.8.0 will be released at "2010-09-21 08:00 UTC" | parrot.org Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | close 25 tickets; remove deprecated items (especially CodeString); record deprecations; polish for 2.8 release
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09:15 www \o
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10:51 whiteknight gerd++
10:55 * whiteknight started watching diaspora on github, and now 90% of the traffic in my news feed is related to disaspora
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11:40 dalek parrot: r49135 | whiteknight++ | branches/stdhandle_meths (26 files):
11:40 dalek parrot: remove most of the remaining references to the stdhandle method and the stdio.pasm file that it uses
11:40 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49135/
11:44 mikehh plobsing: ping
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12:03 mikehh bbl
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13:14 PhatEddy Anyone available to talk about 'C' const qualifiers and nci buffer parameters?
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13:52 whiteknight PhatEddy: sure, what's up?
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14:03 PhatEddy whiteknight: ping
14:03 whiteknight pong
14:04 PhatEddy I was working on a bug with the interface to the pcre library and found that there had been an understandable confusion between capital 'B' and capital 'V' nci parameters.
14:05 whiteknight ok
14:06 PhatEddy pcre picked 'B' for a const char ** parameter when it seems from testing it should have been a 'V'
14:08 PhatEddy The tests make it sort of clear which is which but neither parameter is in the drafts book and other files sort of confuse the two like mk_nci_thunks.pl.
14:08 whiteknight mk_nci_thunks is the old tool, I think
14:09 whiteknight of course, I'm having a hard time finding the source code of the new tool now
14:09 whiteknight ah nevermind, I found it
14:10 PhatEddy what/where is it?
14:11 whiteknight tools/dev/nci_thunk_gen.pir
14:11 whiteknight B looks like a char ** pulled directly from a string buffer
14:11 whiteknight V looks like a void ** pulled from a PMC
14:12 PhatEddy I think that's wrong if you look at the tests and that's the problem.  That's probably how pcre got it wrong.
14:12 whiteknight okay, what was pcre trying to do, and why wasn't it working?
14:15 PhatEddy It was calling pcre_compile (documented in http://www.pcre.org/pcre.txt) which has a const char ** errptr parameter and the errptr results unusable on win and caused other problems in ubuntu
14:16 PhatEddy Changing the B to a V and following the nci_vV example in nci.t fixed the problem.
14:16 whiteknight the problem, I think, is that Parrot strings are immutable
14:16 whiteknight B is probably useless in NCI now
14:16 whiteknight should probably always use V
14:16 whiteknight (and we should update the docs)
14:17 PhatEddy So you can't at this point pass a modifiable buffer to an external library?
14:18 whiteknight hmmmm....That is a very good question
14:19 whiteknight the problem is that Parrot strings are not modifyable in place
14:19 PhatEddy The example in the test doesn't modify the buffer but it reads from it OK.
14:20 whiteknight what it does internally is take the Parrot STRING argument, get a null-terminated C string from it (by copying the STRING to a malloc'd buffer), and passes that C string to the function
14:20 whiteknight when the function call returns, the C stringis free()'d
14:20 whiteknight without updating the Parrot STRING
14:21 whiteknight what I think we can do is rewrite B to take a PMC. From the PMC get a Parrot STRING, do the operation I described above, but instead of freeing the new C string we create a new Parrot STRING from it and store that new STRING in the PMC
14:22 whiteknight (not that you need all the internal details). Can you create a ticket on Trac?
14:22 PhatEddy I will do some more research and add at trac ticket - sure.
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14:23 PhatEddy For the time being, I have some ideas about clarifying this in the examples with const qualifiers ...
14:24 PhatEddy for 'V' in the examples we could use 'char ** const' or 'void ** const'
14:25 PhatEddy for 'B' we could maybe use something like 'void const * const * const' - it could prevent confusion for lib developers for now.
14:26 PhatEddy any thoughts about the idea?
14:35 PhatEddy whiteknight: one other question if you have a moment
15:02 whiteknight sure
15:02 whiteknight about that idea, plobsing is probably somebody you want to talk to about changing the NCI sematics
15:04 PhatEddy You are looking to close some tickets.  I created and was following up on ticket #467.  It's probably easy to close and I am here to answer questions ... if you're interested.
15:04 whiteknight actually, I have to sign off for a while, sorry
15:04 whiteknight I'll be around again later
15:04 PhatEddy thanks ... bbl
15:04 whiteknight I will take a close look at #467 later
15:04 whiteknight thanks, bye
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15:48 sECuRE hi. i just asked in #perl6 about implementing ipv6 support. do you accept patches for parrot to enable IPv6 support?
15:51 * moritz votes "yes", unsurprisingly :-)
15:51 sECuRE :p
15:51 TimToady they might need a contributor license agreement from you
15:51 moritz fwiw, szbalint also considered hacking on IPv6 support in parrot
15:52 sECuRE what’s the recommended way to use the git version of parrot with rakudo-star?
15:52 sECuRE TimToady: that’s no problem for me
15:53 * TimToady has only ever used the svn of parrot...
15:53 sECuRE well, there is http://github.com/parrot/parrot which seems to be a mirror of the svn?
15:54 moritz yes (it's read-only for now)
15:54 sECuRE alright. as i prefer working with git, i’ll check that one out
15:54 moritz git clone git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git; cd rakudo; git clone git://github.com/parrot/parrot.git; cd parrot
15:54 moritz perl Configure.pl --prefix=$src_path/rakudo/parrot_install
15:54 moritz make -j3 install
15:54 moritz cd ..
15:55 moritz perl Configure.pl; make -j3 install
15:55 moritz (installs locally into $src_path/rakudo/parrot_install )
15:55 sECuRE thanks!
15:55 moritz that gives you "just" the rakudo compiler (not the modules that are shipped with Rakudo Star)
15:55 sECuRE that’s alright
15:56 TimToady 100% Pure Perl 6  :)
15:56 moritz (though so)
15:56 TimToady *t
15:56 moritz right
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16:26 dalek parrot: r49136 | dukeleto++ | trunk/NEWS:
16:26 dalek parrot: [docs] Add note about skip_all to NEWS
16:26 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49136/
16:26 dalek parrot: r49137 | dukeleto++ | trunk/NEWS:
16:26 dalek parrot: [docs] Add note about --gc-threshold to NEWS
16:26 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49137/
16:27 sECuRE hm, i’m a little confused about http://github.com/parrot/parrot/bl​ob/master/src/pmc/sockaddr.pmc#L79
16:27 sECuRE the clone() function is said to create a clone of the pointer
16:27 sECuRE but the memcpy copies the struct sockaddr_in
16:27 sECuRE not the pointer
16:27 sECuRE i guess the comment is wrong
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16:44 sECuRE moritz: btw, using git for parrot is not the best idea, for example tools/dev/mk_manifest_and_skip.pl does not work then :\
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17:18 moritz sECuRE: I think dukeleto has a branch for that... not sure though
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17:32 dukeleto sECuRE: i am working on making all of our tools work in git. there is a branch on github that makes mk_manifest_and_skip.pl work in git
17:32 sECuRE ah, cool
17:32 dukeleto sECuRE: we are transitioning to git, and are mostly there
17:33 dalek tracwiki: v34 | dukeleto++ | GitMigration
17:33 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Gi​tMigration?version=34&amp;action=diff
17:35 dukeleto sECuRE: http://github.com/parrot/parr​ot/tree/cotto/git_aware_tools
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17:45 dalek roast: 280ebde | moritz++ | S32-list/reverse.t:
17:45 dalek roast: test for RT #77914, .reverse shoudl flatten parcels
17:45 dalek roast:
17:45 dalek roast: Also removes some non-informative Pod
17:45 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/28​0ebdecb2c27f6e27a9c74140c91f461b95f10e
17:45 dalek roast: 8c3cfd3 | moritz++ | S02-builtin_data_types/hash.t:
17:45 dalek roast: test for RT #75868, Match objects as Hash keys
17:45 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8c​3cfd3736de11047d6041384bfa9c8e043c7533
17:51 dalek roast: 5ca3dae | moritz++ | S02-builtin_data_types/array.t:
17:51 dalek roast: test for RT #57790, scalars indexed with [1] should return a Failure
17:51 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5c​a3dae8bbf33a3e051a2e5389bea2c68c1b3448
17:52 Maddingu1 is now known as Maddingue
17:56 dalek roast: 519bef8 | moritz++ | S03-operators/short-circuit.t:
17:56 dalek roast: some basic tests for RT #77864, &&=, ||= etc. One of them fails
17:56 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/51​9bef8c25fae4227ae9676f84da410b39291357
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18:02 dalek roast: 6a09536 | moritz++ | S03-operators/binding-scalars.t:
18:02 dalek roast: test for RT #77462: binding should have list assignment precedence
18:02 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6a​095360415445b153a46db4eb3c892876a0659f
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19:14 dalek parrot: r49138 | dukeleto++ | trunk/docs/tests.pod:
19:14 dalek parrot: [docs] Fix link to Smolder
19:14 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49138/
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19:48 dalek parrot: r49139 | dukeleto++ | trunk/examples/io/post.pir:
19:48 dalek parrot: [examples] Update HTTP POST example with new smolder info
19:48 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49139/
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20:39 dalek TT #845 closed by dukeleto++: separate tool for uploading to smolder
20:39 dalek TT #845: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/845
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21:02 dalek rakudo: 12088a8 | KodiB++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
21:02 dalek rakudo: [core/Temporal] Fixed RT #77910 (DateTime attributes like .hour should always be Ints).
21:02 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​2088a851a737270bdd286513039a2c0b9995fd4
21:06 dalek roast: a32217d | KodiB++ | S32-temporal/DateTime.t:
21:06 dalek roast: [DateTime.t] Added tests for RT #77910.
21:06 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a3​2217d59ab879347a7f6773faa8a39b7249ec03
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21:41 luben good evening everybody
21:47 dukeleto luben: welcome to the parrotdrome
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21:53 moritz Infinoid: I've added the first non-master branch to mu.git/misc/dalek-conf.json... let's see how it works :-)
22:08 dalek rakudo: e59e96d | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
22:08 dalek rakudo: check name clashes for enum names
22:08 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​59e96d24e7aee6f3b441af11ff68d6669e26d6a
22:14 dalek rakudo: ccde8dc | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
22:14 dalek rakudo: run enums/basic.t
22:14 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​cde8dc0d0ba784c6c857b68506fee7fb3b3b91c
22:14 dalek roast: 895d239 | moritz++ | S12-enums/basic.t:
22:14 dalek roast: fudge enums/basic.t for rakudo
22:14 dalek roast: review: http://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/89​5d239b96ff27de3d0831ec808dffb287dff3b0
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22:59 Paul_the_Greek joined #parrot
22:59 Paul_the_Greek Howdy ho, kids.
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23:19 cotto hi old guy
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23:34 Paul_the_Greek Hey cotto.
23:52 Paul_the_Greek left #parrot
23:53 cotto ENOGREEK

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