Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-09-27

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 whiteknight two questions: does anybody have a link to that object metamodel paper? and, do we have a TODO list anywhere for a new metamodel?
00:05 kid51 msg nwellnhof In testing the gc_ms2_tuning branch on my small-physical-memory machine, is there any command-line setting I should use, say, for gc_threshold?
00:05 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
00:05 kid51 which object metamodel paper?
00:10 plobsing p&w?
00:10 kid51 is now known as kid51_at_dinner
00:10 plobsing purl, p&w?
00:11 plobsing ENOPURL
00:12 dukeleto a blessing or a curse? only time will tell.
00:12 * cotto leans toward a mild curse
00:12 plobsing purl knew that link
00:14 cotto http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:a2o​gJsXgYZcJ:piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pd​f+piumarta+warth&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&a​mp;srcid=ADGEESh3RyAmYPUlGaZjxeGuPCmerHlkxzpsL84O​dOtnoi9A9YwombFVzsWjgi3f4KEz3KdjcA0s1uGaIrcRVuioR​w3xtxQQgeHdOtX9rGVUXiNFrlUMyKyr3c-J-EmtTo1Q53lrD1​W1&sig=AHIEtbToyo_fd4jqKMNXINng6bTrVoSfRA
00:14 * cotto suspects that that link may be self-aware
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00:15 whiteknight cotto++
00:15 whiteknight I can never remember the title of that paper
00:16 whiteknight I had a copy of it on my other box, but it's broken into tiny pieces
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00:17 whiteknight yes, jnthn's work reminds me a lot of this paper
00:17 cotto which work?
00:18 cotto or are you referring to the general idea rather than the specifics
00:21 whiteknight yes
00:26 plobsing whiteknight: (wrt pdd post) does that mean for subsystems were we've more or less declared "mission accomplished" we should not have any PDD?
00:29 dukeleto kid51++ # 'make smoke' knows about TEST_JOBS now
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00:37 dalek TT #1806 closed by dukeleto++: "make smoke" does not respect TEST_JOBS
00:37 dalek TT #1806: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1806
00:44 dalek parrot: r49347 | dukeleto++ | trunk (2 files):
00:44 dalek parrot: [t][doc] Teach 'make smoke' about TEST_JOBS, kid51++ and update NEWS
00:44 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49347/
00:44 whiteknight plobsing: first, name me a subsystem which is "mission accomplished"
00:44 plobsing AFAIK, we're pretty satisfied about PCC
00:44 whiteknight plobsing: I can't imagine a situation where any system is so perfect that we're not planning any improvements
00:45 whiteknight The PCC interface is decent, but the internals are the subject of many complaints
00:45 whiteknight plus, how is it going to work with JIT?
00:45 whiteknight and how will it work with Lorito?
00:45 whiteknight and can we modify PCC to produce a precise GC instead of a stack-walking system?
00:45 plobsing my understanding of lorito as it pertains to PCC is that PCC sits on top of it more or less. meaning its almost a direct translation.
00:46 whiteknight that's my vision for it too, but it may not be that way
00:46 whiteknight I mean, it's not written anywhere
00:47 whiteknight I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't think any systems are really in a state where they are "complete"
00:47 whiteknight in that case though, I suspect the PDDs turn into philosophical justification documents
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00:48 bacek_at_work ~~
00:48 plobsing ok, fair enough. what about systems that aren't problems at the present? why bother spending time designing them?
00:49 plobsing sure it'd be nice if we didn't run around putting out fires, but that's the way it seems we're doing things
00:49 bacek_at_work seen nwellnhof
00:49 aloha nwellnhof was last seen in #parrot 2 hours 18 mins ago joining the channel.
00:51 whiteknight plobsing: my thought is that we set specific priorities. Second half of 2010 and maybe first half of 2011 we're obviously working on GC. It would be nice to have a comprehensive design for it to work for
00:52 whiteknight we don't need to go crazy rewriting design documents for systems we're not planning to do serious work on
00:53 plobsing I guess my question boils down to: do we keep or delete the PDDs we're not willing to invest time in?
00:54 whiteknight bump them all back to the "drafts" folder
00:54 whiteknight or a fancy new "old" folder
00:54 plobsing I suggest /pdd/outright-lies or /pdd/wishful-thinking
00:55 whiteknight specificity. I like that
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01:07 kid51_at_dinner is now known as kid51
01:18 kid51 whiteknight:  What does 'TL;DR' mean?
01:20 whiteknight "Too long, didn't read"
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01:30 dukeleto TLDRWTFBBQ?
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01:34 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#268) fulltest) at r49347 - Ubuntu 10.10 beta amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
01:35 mikehh ran smoke with TEST_JOBS=5, the report on http://smolder.parrot.org/app​/projects/report_details/268 looks ok to me
01:40 mikehh smoke #244 (no TEST_JOBS) real    4m11.161s, user    2m24.200s, sys     0m25.190s
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01:42 mikehh smoke #268 (TEST_JOBS=5) real    1m41.422s, user    2m19.080s,
01:42 mikehh sys     0m25.300s
01:42 mikehh that includes sending to smolder
01:46 dalek tracwiki: v66 | cotto++ | ParrotQuotes
01:46 dalek tracwiki: We like specificity.
01:46 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Pa​rrotQuotes?version=66&action=diff
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01:53 Kovensky hai Kulag
01:56 sorear mikehh: 25s sys? what.
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02:18 mikehh soarer: ?
02:19 bacek_at_work 25s of sys is way too much
02:19 mikehh it has to connectr to smolder, send the archive file, etc
02:22 mikehh I get pretty much the same results running make test TEST_JOBS=5
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02:31 mikehh time make coretest TEST_JOBS=4 => real    0m33.712s, user    0m52.450s, sys     0m14.340s
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02:37 mikehh time make coretest => real    1m37.251s, user    0m46.600s, sys     0m14.200s
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02:58 sorear mikehh: sending to sockets isn't sys
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03:03 mikehh soarer: look at the results from make coretest above - sys 14s in both cases
03:04 mikehh so I don't know what is going on
03:06 mikehh sorry sorear
03:08 dukeleto hola
03:09 mikehh howdy dukeleto
03:15 * mikehh needs some sleep if I am going to function later - it's after 4am here
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08:47 dalek rakudo: f523366 | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
08:47 dalek rakudo: [docs] update ChangeLog
08:47 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​523366154c260a502a37014d5c2994f1001e7ad
08:54 dalek parrot: r49348 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/include/parrot/list.h:
08:54 dalek parrot: Remove wrong semicolon from LIST_APPEND macro
08:54 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49348/
08:54 dalek parrot: r49349 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
08:54 dalek parrot: Fix bug with swapping root_objects and objects[0]
08:54 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49349/
08:54 dalek parrot: r49350 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
08:54 dalek parrot: Reduce gc_threshold to 1M to increase load on GC for testing purposes
08:54 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49350/
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10:22 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#275) fulltest) at r49350 - Ubuntu 10.04 i386 (g++)
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10:35 dalek parrot: r49351 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
10:35 dalek parrot: Factor out mark_string_header. We do need to move strings between
10:35 dalek parrot: generations.
10:35 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49351/
10:35 dalek parrot: r49352 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
10:35 dalek parrot: Skip older PMC in mark
10:35 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49352/
10:35 dalek parrot: r49353 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
10:36 dalek parrot: Remove too expensive PARROT_ASSERT
10:36 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49353/
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11:06 mikehh bacek: ping
11:06 bacek mikehh, pong
11:07 mikehh bacek: got some MANIFEST and codetest fixups for generational_gc branch
11:08 bacek mikehh, go for it
11:12 jnthn bacek: ooh, hacking on generational GC? :-)
11:12 bacek jnthn, indeed :)
11:13 sorear The #1 storage feature I'd like to see is the PMC/Object unification
11:13 sorear our current Object -> Object_attrs -> RPA -> RPA_attrs -> PMC** tango is probably responsible for a lot of the pressure on the GC
11:15 jnthn sorear: 6model does better.
11:16 sorear jnthn: 2 blocks or 3?
11:17 jnthn 3 'cus I'm lazy
11:17 jnthn will be 2 later
11:26 dalek parrot: r49354 | mikehh++ | branches/generational_gc/MANIFEST:
11:26 dalek parrot: [generational_gc] re-generate MANIFEST
11:26 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49354/
11:26 dalek parrot: r49355 | mikehh++ | branches/generational_gc (2 files):
11:26 dalek parrot: [generational_gc] add svn properties and bring t/op/gc-non-recursive.t into line with trunk
11:26 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49355/
11:26 dalek parrot: r49356 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
11:26 dalek parrot: First real generational GC attempt.
11:26 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49356/
11:27 bacek hollei schitt! make coretest passed on r49356!
11:27 moritz you must be doing something wrong :-)
11:28 bacek I'm definitely doing it wrong
11:28 bacek much better now. parrot crashes badly :)
11:46 mikehh bacek: got some codetest fixes for gc_ms2.c but waitin' for you
11:48 bacek mikehh, go for it. i'm probably done for today.
11:49 mikehh bacek: 'k
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12:11 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
12:17 Coke .
12:18 Coke msg kid51 to open a ticket, support@osuosl.org - I'm not sure the webterface is enabled (just like for rt.perl.org); there is #osuosl on freenode, though.\
12:18 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
12:18 Coke msg kid51 - also, particle's a good person to ping about such things.
12:18 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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12:34 dalek parrot: r49357 | mikehh++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
12:34 dalek parrot: [generational_gc] fix codetest failures, macro args, c_parens and add documentation
12:34 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49357/
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13:00 whiteknight plobsing: ping
13:08 plobsing png
13:08 plobsing pong even
13:17 dalek rakudo: 607ec45 | moritz++ | README:
13:17 dalek rakudo: [README] fix smolder link, PhatEddy++
13:17 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​07ec45dfab220ff3e5dca258a63a33f84199e41
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13:22 whiteknight plobsing: in bytecode, PMCs are all thawed only once?
13:22 whiteknight like, when the PBC is loaded?
13:23 plobsing yes. thawing is part of loading.
13:24 plobsing specifically it happens when a ConstTable segment (usually only one per PBC) is unpacked
13:24 whiteknight okay, that's what I was hoping.
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13:25 plobsing ooc, what are you hoping to use this for?
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13:33 whiteknight plobsing: I'm just reading over PDD03 with a fine-toothed comb and I want to make sure the sanity levels are high enough
13:34 whiteknight I'm reading the code too, but I can't pick some of it apart right now
13:37 plobsing OK. I was somewhat woried that you were going to be depending on the ordering for something.
13:37 plobsing We might make thawing constants lazy in the future. And side effects in deserialization are just evil.
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13:38 whiteknight plobsing: I'm thinking about a system where we have dedicated "load_constant" opcodes. and every other opcode and all PCC calls only operate on registers
13:39 whiteknight we cut our number of opcodes in half or more immediately. Plus, we cut out a lot of unnecessary branches in the PCC code
13:40 plobsing we have special branches in PCC for dealing with constants? that just seems wrong.
13:41 whiteknight it is wrong
13:42 whiteknight look at src/call/args.c:extract_named_arg_from_op as one example
13:44 plobsing why do we have 2 levels of branching there? not sure whether most compilers would flatten that or not.
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13:48 plobsing whiteknight: we could get what you're thinking of fairly easily. it is the extreme case of what branches/constant_unfolding aims to do.
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13:49 whiteknight the problem with a load_constant opcode is that we would have to know the index of the constant in order to look it up, but we don't necessarily have the indices of the constants in the table until the table is completed
13:50 whiteknight so we either need a smarter assembler, or some kind of magic, or a more interactive assembly process
13:52 plobsing I'm confused. I think we may be talking about different things. I was mentally mapping load_constant to set_i_ic, set_n_nc, etc...
13:52 plobsing which we already do. so I don't see how we'd need a smarter assembler
13:53 whiteknight oh, I was envisioning something more along the lines of a load_constant_p_i, which would load PMC constant i from the table
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13:53 whiteknight of course, we we did $P0 = load_constant "foo", IMCC could easily translate that internally to the form that's required
13:54 plobsing we could extend virtual registers to include "virtual constant references"
13:55 plobsing eg: $PC0 for PMC constant 0, $NC1 for number constant 1, etc
13:56 plobsing but then we'd need a way to associate constants with tehm
13:56 whiteknight right
13:56 whiteknight there are some serious questions to be answered, but I think there are big wins here if we do
13:58 plobsing I could try and bring constant_unfolding up to date to see where those wins are.
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14:46 * dukeleto waves hello
14:47 * moritz solitons hello
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14:49 * dukeleto decomposes self into normal modes and tunnels through moritz
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15:48 gottreu parrot on minix3: does the community care at this time that it doesn't build?
15:49 moritz it'll probably accept patches
15:51 gottreu I do not have those.  My assumption is that minix doesn't matter until much later in the life of parrot.  Probably a little after it works on VMS.
15:52 tadzik or much later in the life of Minix :)
15:53 * gottreu has given up.  At least until he finds a debugger for Minix.
15:53 moritz my impression is that parrot has a some fixed "core" platforms (less unusual Unix variants and MS windows), and all other platforms are only supported if there happens to be a parrot developer that maintains it
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16:08 whiteknight that's exactly it. We don't currently have a developer that works on Minix
16:11 whiteknight I may be able to install minix on a vm for testing
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16:33 dalek parrot: r49358 | mikehh++ | branches/generational_gc/compilers/imcc/pbc.c:
16:33 dalek parrot: [generational_gc] add cast to get g++ to build
16:33 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49358/
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17:28 dukeleto does minix have a package system?
17:30 whiteknight i have no idea
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18:02 PerlJam pkg probably
18:11 whiteknight I can't get minix to install on VirtualBox
18:11 whiteknight so I'm abandoning this particular project
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18:34 * dukeleto mumbles about too many projects...
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19:32 GeJ Bonjour everyone.
19:32 whiteknight hello GeJ
19:33 GeJ Hello whiteknight.
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20:03 GeJ clock?
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