Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-10-19

Parrot | source cross referenced

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02:39 cotto purely theoretical question: If I were to start a blog, what'd be a awesome name?
02:40 atrodo Insert Awesome Blog Name Here?
02:43 dukeleto cotto: very good question. use "strangely consistent" as inspiration
02:43 cotto dukeleto, can you elaborate?
02:44 cotto Ah.  That seems to be masak's blog.
02:46 cotto My first thought is "Year of the Newly Exploding Parrot", but the idea probably needs more thought.
02:47 dukeleto cotto: you can go on a wiki binge about parrots and then maybe a solution to your problem will present itself
02:48 dukeleto cotto: or seek http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotQuotes for enlightenment ;)
02:48 cotto an intentional wikipedia random walk?  yes, thanks!
02:48 cotto ironically, I read through that earlier today.
02:48 cotto I love that page.
02:49 dukeleto cotto: it has a very large laugh density
02:50 cotto Sadly, much of the humor comes from bashing on Parrot internals.  That portion will decrease as we clean the bird up.
02:50 cotto I guess it's a win-win of sorts.
02:56 dukeleto indeed it is.
02:56 dukeleto cotto: what is the purpose of your new blog? anything in particular?
02:57 dukeleto cotto: why parrot will take over the world?
02:58 cotto It'll be mostly parrot-related.
03:04 cotto I'd rather write about Parrot taking over the world after the fact.  Too many people do that prematurely and end up looking pretty silly.
03:04 cotto ;)
03:38 bacek_at_work Hey, we didn't have updates on ParrotQuotes for 3 months. Is parrot development not funny anymore???
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03:51 cotto You can't force quality humor.
03:55 davidfetter you can force *bad* quality humor :)
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04:03 dukeleto cotto: something with the words "feather" or "flock" ?
04:05 cotto some sort of bird vocabulary sounds like a good idea
04:05 * cotto likes bikesh^H^H^H^H^H^Hthinking of names for things
04:08 brianwisti Naming things can be fun.
04:08 cotto says Mr. Coolnamehere ;)
04:08 brianwisti The names I wanted were taken: aardvark.org and artwhore.com
04:09 brianwisti alas.
04:09 cotto I was really lucky to get pipp.org for the eventual PHP on Parrot implementation.
04:10 brianwisti I was surprised I got coolnamehere. Although I do occasionally wish I'd gone for something shorter.
04:11 brianwisti I hope you're pondering something *like* PHP, rather than a full-on bug-for-design-flaw implementation.
04:13 cotto My eventual goal is a compatible but better implementation.  I completely agree that the language is a hopeless mess, but it's also hugely popular.
04:13 cotto It's a great example of worse is better.
04:14 brianwisti I like a lot of the ideas in PHP. It was my first Web app language. Sorta-compatible-but-better would be awesome.
04:14 cotto It does deployment really well.
04:15 cotto It's also brain-dead easy to get started in.
04:16 cotto It might be an attractive feature that anyone can feel like they're contributing to the docs, though that probably does more harm than good.
04:18 plobsing requiring people to download the source to create a patch to submit increases the chances said people will actually *read* the source
04:19 cotto I was referring to the comments they allow on their docs.
04:20 plobsing yes. I've had the displeasure of trying to use those to cobble together a fix before.
04:21 cotto bad idea
04:21 cotto any idiot can post and most do
04:21 plobsing exactly. which is why I favour a patch barrier to docs.
04:22 * cotto too
04:32 * davidfetter 3, fwiw
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07:43 gerd I just run the tests for Parrot 2.9.0 with revision 49573
07:44 gerd make fulltest was successful, can I do the "commit" for 2.9.0 now?
07:45 cotto I'd like to give NEWS a once-over.
07:46 gerd Please do I it
07:47 gerd I will do a new checkout
07:48 cotto bacek, ping
07:48 cotto aloha, clock?
07:48 bacek cotto, pong
07:48 aloha cotto: cotto: LAX: Tue, 00:48 PDT / CHI: Tue, 02:48 CDT / NYC: Tue, 03:48 EDT / UTC: Tue, 07:48 UTC / LON: Tue, 08:48 BST / BER: Tue, 09:48 CEST / TOK: Tue, 16:48 JST / SYD: Tue, 18:48 EST
07:48 aloha cotto: I give up.
07:49 cotto bacek, what does the new gc in trunk do that the old one didn't?
07:49 bacek cotto, nothing.
07:49 bacek It's just foundation for GenGC
07:49 cotto just some refactors and cleanups?
07:53 cotto Hmm.  I'm not especially happy with the NEWS atm.  It may just be that not much has happened, but it's not especially impressive atm.
07:54 gerd So I will do the commit now, I think the NEWS are long enough
07:55 cotto Do you mind if I take a few minutes to troll through old #ps logs?
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07:55 cotto I'm not looking for length as much as items people who aren't core developers will care about and understand.
07:56 gerd Okay! Let me kown when it is done
07:57 cotto sure
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08:11 cotto gerd, done
08:11 cotto er, not quite
08:12 gerd the revision is still 49573
08:15 gerd I am still waiting, do want to change the file NEWS
08:15 cotto now done
08:16 cotto Our convention of using + and - in NEWS makes the diffs somewhat entertaining
08:16 gerd Okay, I think can do my "commit" without running the test again
08:17 cotto I had some conflicts from being a slacker and not updating late enough.
08:17 cotto seems safe ;]
08:17 cotto by "commit", do you mean tag the release?
08:17 gerd yes
08:18 cotto Stupid Configure.pl trick: pmclass Foo extends Foo {} in a PMC will cause Configure.pl to spin in an infinite loop and eat all available memory slowly.
08:20 dalek parrot: r49574 | cotto++ | trunk/NEWS:
08:20 dalek parrot: [NEWS] various tweaks to try to make the news more interesting to J. Random Hacker
08:20 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49574/
08:22 cotto Hm.  How does this work for a rule of thumb for interesting NEWS items: look for things that are easy to appreciate or that will make users' lives easier
08:25 bacek Is supported release NEWS cumulative since last supported release?
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08:26 cotto bacek, I don't think we decided on that either way.
08:26 bacek ok
08:27 gerd I there a problem that needed to be fixed, before 2.9.0 can released
08:27 cotto I'd like to make the Lorito transition first, but that's probably not realistic without at least 4 extra baceks.
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08:30 gerd So could I do the commit to 2.9.0 now?
08:31 cotto go for it
08:32 gerd done the revision is 49575
08:34 gerd ls
08:35 dalek parrot: r49575 | gerd++ | trunk (13 files):
08:35 dalek parrot: update to 2.9.0
08:35 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49575/
08:40 cotto gerd++
08:41 cotto I love having the release out early.
08:41 moritz gerd++
08:42 gerd I tagged the release (49576)
08:43 cotto so you did
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08:50 dalek parrot: r49576 | gerd++ | tags/RELEASE_2_9_0:
08:50 dalek parrot: tagged release 2.9.0
08:50 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49576/
08:53 gerd 2.9.0 is copied to the ftp-server and ftp.parrot.org is triggered
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08:54 gerd "make fulltest" for 2.9.0 tar file just finished successful
08:55 cotto Do you have permissions to update docs.parrot.org?
08:55 gerd No, I do not have.
08:57 gerd Can I get the permissions? I would like to update the documentaion.
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08:58 cotto I'll do it now.  I think Coke can get you a bit.
08:58 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.9.0 Released | parrot.org Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | close configure component tickets
09:01 gerd Do you need my ssh-key?
09:04 cotto for parrotvm osuosl needs to set you up with your own account
09:04 cotto apparently
09:08 gerd Would you create a account for me and e-mail the username and password to me.
09:09 cotto I don't have permissions to do that.
09:09 cotto you can hop on #osuosl on freenode
09:10 cotto Coke and dukeleto would know who to talk to
09:11 gerd Okay I will ask Coke for it or only ask him for the documentation update
09:12 gerd I will leave and the write the HTML-page, have a nice day!
09:14 gerd Bye!
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09:17 cotto night
09:18 cotto msg gerd I updated docs.parrot.org for 2.9.0
09:18 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
09:18 cotto msg ijwqeofqlaslkdf test
09:18 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
09:27 bacek cotto, Msg plugin doesn't check existence of user
09:37 dalek parrot: r49577 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/include/parrot/gc_api.h:
09:37 dalek parrot: Remove shortcut in mark_PMC_alive.
09:37 dalek parrot: We are using VTABLE_mark for propagating _live_ objects between generations.
09:37 dalek parrot: This shortcut does break it.
09:37 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49577/
09:37 dalek parrot: r49578 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
09:37 dalek parrot: Rework pmc_propagate function.
09:37 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49578/
09:37 dalek parrot: r49579 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/include/parrot/gc_api.h:
09:37 dalek parrot: Remove shortcut in mark_STRING_alive
09:37 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49579/
09:37 dalek parrot: r49580 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
09:37 dalek parrot: DRY: use already assigned gen
09:37 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49580/
09:37 dalek parrot: r49581 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/pmc.c:
09:37 dalek parrot: HACK: preserve GC invariant in pmc_reuse
09:37 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49581/
09:45 bacek ookey
09:46 bacek gen_gc passing most of test suite now
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10:25 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#693) fulltest) at r49581 - Ubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
10:33 mikehh bacek: same read_only failures we had before - make test has a bunch of failures AFAICS all - src/vtables.c:65: failed assertion 'base_vtable'
10:34 mikehh got to go out for a bit - bbl
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11:12 dalek website: gerd++ | Parrot 2.9.0 "Red-masked" Released!
11:12 dalek website: http://www.parrot.org/news/2010/Parrot-2.9.0
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11:40 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.9.0 Released | parrot.org Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | close configure component tickets
12:13 dalek parrot: r49582 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/pmc/class.pmc:
12:13 dalek parrot: Temporary workarond for mussing ro_variant_vtable
12:13 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49582/
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12:23 bacek YES!
12:23 * bacek going for recharge
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14:06 nopaste "mikehh" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "generational_gc branch - make test" (40 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/24597
14:08 mikehh msg bacek: make test results http://nopaste.snit.ch/24597
14:08 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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14:34 NotFound hi
14:34 * NotFound is back
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15:04 mikehh NotFound: where you bin
15:05 mikehh NotFound: ain't seen you for a spell
15:05 NotFound Physical world is demanding sometimes
15:06 mikehh :-}
15:06 NotFound Nothing importante, but being busy with a mix of things.
15:07 mikehh Yeah, know that problem well
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16:04 pmichaud I'll send email to parrot-dev shortly... but some change in the last four days is causing Rakudo builds to take an incredibly long time
16:04 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/634456   # table of revisions and build times
16:05 pmichaud I'm running again and will let the rakudo build on 2.9.0 go to completion so we know how long it's actually taking.
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16:24 pmichaud http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/p​arrot-dev/2010-October/004929.html  # urgent message to parrot-dev
16:24 * dukeleto will be missing #ps today due to being on a plane to the gsoc mentor summit
16:25 pmichaud I'm requesting a hard freeze on trunk commits and (especially) branch merges until this is resolved; otherwise things will get very dicey for Rakudo's build system.
16:26 moritz and maybe a 2.9.1 point release where this is fixed?
16:27 pmichaud I'm sure there will need to be a 2.9.1 point release.
16:33 davidfetter dukeleto, no wifi on airplane?!?
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17:22 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/634604    # build timings
17:22 pmichaud afk, lunch
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17:58 Util I have verified that change 49557 *alone* is responsible for the abnormal build time.
17:58 Util If change 49557 is reverted from the 2.9.0 during the rakudo build, the build happens in normal time.
17:58 Util i.e. `cd parrot && patch -R -p2 < ~/Downloads/changeset_r49557.diff` during
17:58 Util `perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot`, after the SVN checkout has occurred, but before gc_ms2.c compiles.
18:02 Util Reverted in r49583.
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18:07 dalek parrot: r49583 | Util++ | trunk/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
18:07 dalek parrot: Reverting r49557 to resolve Rakudo abnormal build times
18:07 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49583/
18:09 Util Also, pushed r49557 into PARROT_REVISION on Rakudo's GitHub master
18:09 Util I mean r49583
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19:08 * dukeleto says hello from the gates of the PDX airport
19:08 * pmichaud wonders if the gates are "perly gates"   or if they say "woe to those who enter here"
19:09 jnthn ...the gates talk?
19:09 pmichaud I hear them all the time.  annoying things.
19:10 pmichaud "Final call for Southwest flight 1234 and if you don't board now we'll give away your seat and foreclose on your house."
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19:17 dukeleto Evidently my flight is getting "serviced" and the boarding has been pushed back to 12:30pm, so I may be at the first few mins of #ps
19:20 cotto is #ps in 10 minutes or 70?
19:22 pmichaud cotto: /topic says it's in 68
19:22 pmichaud (20:30 utc)
19:23 cotto thanks.  my irc client likes to mangle topics
19:24 dukeleto i thought it was at 12:30 PST, but it is actually at 1:30pm. I can't seem to remember that.
19:32 dukeleto this commit http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49583/ reverts the commit that made parrot build on his laptop
19:34 pmichaud dukeleto: that commit also makes Rakudo builds 6x slower
19:34 cotto dukeleto, there was quite a mess over that commit.  It increases Rakudo build times something like 4-5x
19:34 pmichaud sorry
19:34 pmichaud without that commit, Rakudo builds are 6x slower
19:34 cotto perhaps bacek's gc will help once it's ready
19:34 pmichaud we got from 4m15s to well over 26m on my box
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19:35 pmichaud afk, kid pickup
19:36 dukeleto pmichaud: understandable. We need to fix it in a better way.
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19:52 cotto hi tcurtis
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19:52 tcurtis Hi, cotto.
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20:02 davidfetter dukeleto, what time does your flight land?
20:07 mikehh got a seg fault in t/pmc/threads.t - test 9 in fulltest/testf, reran the test and it was ok, ran it a bunch of times and it failed once out of 10 runs (the first re-run)
20:11 mikehh ran it as perl t/harness --gc-debug -f --runcore-tests (first time) and make testf (bunch of times), re-ran perl t/harness --gc-debug -f --runcore-tests (also a bunch of times)
20:12 mikehh so I got a failure in make fulltest and then a second, but it keeps passing now
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20:15 * kid51 notes that the reversion in r49583, while it may enable Rakudo to build once again, is also likely to pose the same problem on small-physical-memory machines as described in TT #1829 in the first place.
20:16 PerlJam kid51: aye
20:16 cotto it's the lesser of two evils for now until we can find a good fix for both
20:16 PerlJam Could that number be a macro or something that adjusts to the local system?
20:20 kid51 Well, chromatic commented in his commit that it ought to be a command-line option to Configure.pl
20:20 kid51 I would go farther.
20:20 cotto something dynamic and automatic?
20:20 PerlJam kid51: please do :)
20:20 kid51 I think it should be a machine-specific value determined by some combination of a 'hints' file and an 'auto' configure step.
20:21 kid51 chromatic worked on that at the Portland gathering on Saturday.
20:21 cotto does that assume that everyone will build Parrot?
20:21 atrodo or that the machine that it's built on will never change memory size?
20:21 kid51 I was actually somewhat surprised that he committed my hack (intended to get Parrot to build on my iBook) to trunk ...
20:22 kid51 ... but I assumed that he felt it would have no negative repercussions.
20:23 kid51 This needs to be dealt with by people who understand the new GC subsystem ...
20:24 kid51 ... and who can get it to work both in high-memory footprint situations (like, currently, building Rakudo) and low-resource situations.
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20:30 mikehh kid51: one of the problems is that the whole gc subsystem is in flux at the moment
20:30 mikehh #ps time
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20:48 nopaste "bacek" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Phys mem calculation is clisp" (11 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/24608
20:56 nopaste "chromatic" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "bacek: hairball of GC tuning; big improvements" (434 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/24609
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21:25 chromatic bacek, is there any concrete value to having a pluggable GC now?  I'm removing a lot of the plugging for good performance improvements.
21:25 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.9.0 Released | parrot.org Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | GC tuning | remove deprecations |
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21:29 chromatic bacek, one thing I noticed in gc_ms2: traversing the old generation list to reset colors seems far too expensive.
21:29 chromatic It looked very compatible with the sweepless GC scheme.
21:29 bacek chromatic, in gen_gc?
21:30 chromatic I haven't looked at gen_gc yet.
21:30 bacek chromatic, there is no "old generation" is gc_ms2...
21:30 chromatic there's ->objects and ->new_objects.
21:31 bacek (pluggable GC) I think we switch to compile time selection
21:31 bacek new_objects == root_objects
21:31 chromatic Right.
21:31 chromatic All of this redirection through function pointers is expensive.
21:31 bacek Yes, I know.
21:33 chromatic If we had a decent C compiler which could optimize whole programs... ah.
21:37 bacek gcc 4.5?
21:37 bacek icc -ipo?
21:37 bacek anyway
21:37 chromatic I couldn't get gcc 4.5 to do anything measurable when I tried.
21:37 bacek afk # $dayjob preparation
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21:56 allison I'll do a longer post, but for the quick reassurance: me handing off the Chief Architect role is nothing like Dan. I love Parrot, think it's on the upswing and on a good track to take over the world of VMs.
21:57 allison The meeting on Saturday (and Friday before with Jim), was like a cloud lifting, I've been so worried the past year on how to keep Parrot moving forward.
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22:16 dalek parrot: r49584 | cotto++ | trunk (8 files):
22:16 dalek parrot: update Parrot to 2.9.1
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22:16 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49584/
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22:17 cotto Please hold off committing anything to trunk for the next few minutes while I get this bugfix release out.
22:18 dukeleto bugfix release?
22:18 * dukeleto just got to his hotel
22:19 cotto yes, to fix the build time issue that Rakudo was seeing
22:20 dukeleto cotto: ah, i saw the commit, but i didn't know it wasn't in 2.9.0
22:21 cotto Yup.  2.9.1 = 2.9.0 + that commit
22:21 dukeleto cotto: this is something that timing automated builds could have detected
22:21 cotto How easy is that to do?  That information could be very useful.
22:23 dukeleto cotto: pretty darn easy. It is something the compile farm could do. we just need the infrastructure to track it usefully
22:26 cotto what infrastructure would we need?
22:31 dalek parrot: r49585 | cotto++ | tags/RELEASE_2_9_1:
22:31 dalek parrot: tag 2.9.1 release
22:31 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49585/
22:31 dalek parrot: r49586 | cotto++ | tags/RELEASE_2_9_1:
22:31 dalek parrot: delete mistagged release
22:31 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49586/
22:31 dalek parrot: r49587 | cotto++ | tags/RELEASE_2_9_1:
22:31 dalek parrot: tag 2.9.1 release (for real this time)
22:31 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49587/
22:37 cotto Should I send out an announcement for 2.9.1?
22:37 brianwisti left #parrot
22:39 chromatic Please do.
22:39 chromatic At least email and website.
22:41 cotto ok
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22:51 dukeleto cotto++
22:54 cotto done
22:54 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.9.1 Released | parrot.org Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | GC tuning | remove deprecations |
22:54 dalek website: cotto++ | Parrot 2.9.1 Released
22:54 dalek website: http://www.parrot.org/news/parrot-2.9.1-released
22:58 dukeleto no codenames for bugfix releases, eh?
22:59 * dukeleto likes codenames
23:00 cotto figuring out a codename isn't conducive to getting a release out the door quickly
23:00 cotto I do like them, though
23:01 cotto either I've hit my afternoon slump or the release process is pretty draining
23:02 cotto it's done now, though
23:02 cotto recommence breaking stuff!
23:03 dukeleto cotto: thanks for doing that. We all very much appreciate it. A new release *does* drain some energy
23:04 dukeleto cotto: that itemized list of stuff to do is *long*, but well-specified
23:09 cotto ye
23:09 cotto s
23:09 cotto If you want to release 2.9.2 with a codename, I won't stop you.
23:11 davidfetter "brown paper bag" ?
23:12 cotto you release it, you name it
23:17 dalek parrot: r49588 | cotto++ | trunk/tools/release/templates.json:
23:17 dalek parrot: [release] clean up crow template grammar a bit
23:17 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49588/
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