Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-10-24

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Time Nick Message
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00:21 dukeleto kid51: how do we fix that?
00:21 kid51 well, I'm not sure I want to fix that, at least in the short run
00:22 dukeleto kid51: that is fine, but it sounds like you are bored. We don't want that ;)
00:22 kid51 I have a lot else to do, particularly in the project
00:23 kid51 dukeleto:  I wonder if you could think about writing up either a blog post or a post to parrot-users about PLparrot (or whatever it is called)
00:24 kid51 As I mentioned last week, the fact that you said you had 4-5 people making contributions to it means that it qualifies as Parrot's second 'major user' (after P6)
00:25 kid51 I want to understand that better, and I want all our contributors to start understanding that as well.
00:25 kid51 And it's the sort of topic I'd like to see on parrot-users, which is under-utilized
00:26 dukeleto kid51: sure. I have written a few blog posts about it, but some things have changed. You *do* read my blog posts, right?
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00:27 kid51 Reading your post on the google OS blog now, I realize that I did read that one ...
00:27 kid51 ... but to be honest I can't say that I recall others.
00:27 dukeleto kid51: http://leto.net/dukeleto.pl/postgres/
00:28 dukeleto kid51: that will give you more background about PL/Parrot and PL/Perl6
00:29 kid51 Ah, so the two postgres-related ones were in April and June -- no longer in my short-term memory. ;-)
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00:31 kid51 So, perhaps an update on their current status is in order, starting with ...
00:32 kid51 ... do they still work, or have we in Parrot broken them? ;-)
00:32 kid51 If they're working, what will it take for us (Parrot + Postgres people) to turn this work into a promotable product? ...
00:33 kid51 ... which will then attract more developers to the product and the project(s)?
00:33 kid51 Let's pose this more concretely.
00:34 kid51 What combination of usable product and promotional information about the product (web sites, PDFs, slideshows, etc.) would be needed to enable me to walk into a meeting of Postgres developers in NYC, talk about the product, and not get laughed out of the room?
00:35 kid51 (... especially given that I've never used postgres :-) )
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00:38 dukeleto kid51: good things to think about
00:38 dukeleto kid51: i have been thinking about those things lately, along with davidfetter
00:41 kid51 We need to get to the point where we can say, "This code is cool and you can use it now!"
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01:05 kid51 dukeleto:  So how did your "Dynamic Language Interop session" go?
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01:32 dukeleto kid51: we can get to that point faster with your help ;)
01:33 dukeleto kid51: well, i sent notes to parrot-dev
01:35 kid51 dukeleto: yes i've been reading that mail
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01:52 whiteknight I'd be very happy to hear more details about some of the things that happened at the GSoC mentor summit
01:52 whiteknight some of these emails are very intriguing, if cryptic
01:55 kid51 whiteknight #mentorsummit on irc.freenode.net
01:55 whiteknight thanks
01:55 kid51 but everyone is probably at dinner now
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02:05 whiteknight blah. Dinner is for the weak
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03:24 davidfetter dukeleto, ?
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04:10 bacek aloha, humans
04:12 dalek parrot: r49640 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/ops (2 files):
04:12 dalek parrot: Fix "op copy" to avoid messing with PMC guts which breaks under
04:12 dalek parrot: assumption that everything inside PMC is simple and memmovable.
04:12 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49640/
04:12 dalek parrot: r49641 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
04:12 dalek parrot: Don't propagate string from current generation into current generation.
04:12 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49641/
04:15 bacek seen kid51
04:15 aloha kid51 was last seen in msg 2 hours 19 mins ago <private message>.
04:16 bacek msg kid51 Only gen_gc atm
04:16 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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04:58 dalek parrot: r49642 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/pmc/scheduler.pmc:
04:58 dalek parrot: Fix bad assumption in Scheduler.destroy.
04:58 dalek parrot: Basically we can have such code:
04:58 dalek parrot: $P0 = new 'Scheduler'
04:58 dalek parrot: null $P0
04:58 dalek parrot: sweep 1
04:58 dalek parrot: Then we have NULL interp->scheduler.
04:58 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49642/
05:44 davidfetter msg kid51 if you don't find me on irc, contact me at david@fetter.org re: NYC PostgreSQL Users' Group
05:44 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
06:20 bacek NICE....
06:21 bacek Who introduced Parrot_pmc_new_noinit???
06:26 plobsing why is it a problem?
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06:37 cotto ~~
06:44 plobsing |¯|_|¯|_
06:45 cotto Don't be a □.
06:48 plobsing I tried /\/\/ before, but ppl mistake it for a regex
06:58 cotto That would send the wrong signal.
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09:00 bacek ~~
09:00 bacek plobsing, yes. new_noinit doesn't initialize custom_mark and custom_destroy flags. For example thawed Hash will not mark stored keys/values...
09:03 sorear then thaw is broken
09:03 sorear the contract of new_noinit is that the caller gets to deal with that mess
09:22 bacek sorear, custom_mark, etc incapsulated inside PMC. caller of new_noinit shouldn't worry about it.
09:22 bacek afk again
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10:10 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#779) fulltest) at r49642 - Kubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5)
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10:21 dalek parrot: r49643 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/pmc (2 files):
10:21 dalek parrot: Initialize custom mark and destroy flags in thawed objects. It's required because ImageIO uses pmc_new_noinit which doesn't initialize these flags
10:21 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49643/
10:36 dalek parrot: r49644 | mikehh++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
10:36 dalek parrot: [generational_gc] add casts to get g++ to build
10:36 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49644/
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11:02 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
11:02 tadzik good morning whiteknight
11:02 tadzik about PCT, I accidentally asked that on #perl6. Can compilers using PCT be written in something else than NQP, or is there a perspective for that?
11:10 tadzik (will be back soon)
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12:25 dalek parrot: r49645 | mikehh++ | failed to fetch changeset:
12:25 dalek parrot: [html_cleanup] merge latest trunk (r49644) into the branch
12:25 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49645/
12:26 * mikehh hoping this stuff is going to be a lot easier with git
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14:48 nopaste "kid51" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "generational_gc branch: down to 2 FAILs at r49644" (20 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/24792
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15:58 dukeleto 'ello
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16:51 davidfetter hai dukeleto
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17:33 dukeleto 'ello
17:35 cotto ~~
17:37 * masak «greet« @people
17:37 tadzik or should it be: «.greet«?
17:38 masak no, you can't put method calls inside metaoperators.
17:39 tadzik oh
17:40 masak only operators.
17:40 plobsing isn't . an operator?
17:40 tadzik [1,2,3]».say works for me
17:40 masak plobsing: yes. ish.
17:41 masak tadzik: right, but then '.' acts as the operator, as plobsing pointed out.
17:41 tadzik mhm
17:41 masak whereas in «.greet«, what you've actually surrounded is a method call, not an operator.
17:42 masak in STD nomenclature, I think both '.' and '».' count as variations on the 'dotty' rule.
17:43 masak (and in that sense, they are not operators, they're dotties.)
17:43 plobsing what about junctions?
17:44 * plobsing . greet(all(@people))
17:44 masak that's fine.
17:44 masak but due to TTIAR, you can't have white space around the dot.
17:45 masak unspace is fine, though.
17:45 plobsing ttiar?
17:45 masak "Two Terms In A Row". a restriction on the syntax of Perl 6.
17:46 masak to a first approximation, terms and operators must alternate.
17:46 masak (except when they mustn't)
17:47 masak s/mustn't/don't have to/
17:48 plobsing heh. consistent like a natural language. good thing I can get by in those most of the time.
17:50 tadzik hmm, what about @people ==> tadzik.greet(*)?
17:50 masak not sure you need the (*)
17:51 masak though 'tadzik' needs a sigil, unless it's a sub call.
17:51 plobsing wait. are methods and attributes not in different namespaces?
17:51 masak oh, entirely.
17:52 masak why do you ask?
17:52 plobsing so how would it differentiate tadzik.greet the attr access from tadzik.greet the method curry?
17:53 masak the dot always means the method call.
17:54 masak in the case of public attribute (those with a dot twigil), an access method has been automatically generated for your class, unless you wrote one yourself.
17:55 masak but (barring invisible optimizations), the dot always goes through a method.
17:55 tadzik tadzik could be a class name. Ha
17:56 plobsing lowercase class names? seems magical. what would that mean?
17:57 masak obviously it's the low-level tadzik :P
17:57 tadzik :)
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20:04 kid51 whiteknight: ping
20:04 whiteknight pong
20:04 kid51 whiteknight:  I think this sentence in your latest blog post needs clarification:
20:04 kid51 "Also, the kinds of documentation that users need is often far different from the kinds of documentation that users need."
20:04 whiteknight ha
20:05 kid51 We seem to be in a lull as far as actual code contributions go right now ...
20:06 kid51 ... but perhaps we could make lemonade out of that lemon by using the lull to focus on design and APIs.
20:06 whiteknight fixed
20:06 whiteknight thanks
20:06 masak kid51: I think it's a wonderful phrasing of a fundamental problem with user documentation. :)
20:07 kid51 The notion that libparrot is our primary product is certainly a startlingly new (to me, at least) interpretation.
20:11 kid51 If that concept proves persuasive, then to me it suggests the starting point for a rewrite of the PDDs.
20:11 kid51 But I would not one thing:
20:12 kid51 In conversation with dukeleto last week, and in looking over his blog posts about PLparrot, it's clear that he sees PLparrot and PLperl6 as *embedded* applications.
20:12 kid51 And I know that his interest in Parrot, if it had to be reduced to one word, could be said to be "embedding".
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20:14 kid51 Also re blog post: s/commens/comments/ in 1st paragraph
20:21 dalek parrot: r49646 | nwellnhof++ | trunk (4 files):
20:21 dalek parrot: [io] Fix unbuffered read
20:21 dalek parrot: Unbuffered reads with sizes below 2048 seem to have been broken
20:21 dalek parrot: for quite a while. Also includes a small fix to line-buffered reads
20:21 dalek parrot: after EOF.
20:21 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49646/
20:22 kid51 nwellnof++ for breaking the dry spell!
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20:43 * dukeleto is hacking with RTEMS devs at the GSoC mentor summit
20:44 kid51 Are you ... embedding?
20:45 dukeleto kid51: something like that
20:45 kid51 Apropos whiteknight's latest blog, what do they think of Parrot's API documentation, etc.?
20:45 kid51 post on parrot-users strongly recommended
20:45 kid51 I hope shockwave posts his 3-part critique on parrot-users
20:48 * cotto is learning that he'll have to find a good balance between blogging and coding.
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21:06 bacek Good morning, humans
21:06 kid51 Good Monday morning bacek.
21:07 bacek kid51, aloha
21:07 masak preved, bacek.
21:07 bacek masak, с добрым утром
21:08 dalek parrot: r49647 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:08 dalek parrot: Paint strings white as well after m&s.
21:08 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49647/
21:08 dalek parrot: r49648 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:08 dalek parrot: Add more self-checking functions.
21:08 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49648/
21:08 kid51 bacek: I tested the generational_gc branch and saw that we're down to 2 failing files.
21:08 dalek parrot: r49649 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:08 dalek parrot: Change pobj2gen signature to sematically correct version.
21:08 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49649/
21:08 masak bacek: here it's still last night :)
21:08 bacek kid51, btw, I use "c++ comments" for code require additional attention.
21:08 bacek masak, welcome to future! :)
21:09 kid51 Yes, cotto flagged that for me, so I think I reverted all my changes
21:09 bacek kid51, ok, thanks
21:09 kid51 Also, generational_gc at least built on my small-resource box.
21:10 bacek kid51, it's horribly broken atm... I' still trying to fix moving objects between generations.
21:11 * dukeleto is cross compiling RTEMS on his netbook right now
21:12 kid51 particle: Attention! Cross-compiling in progress ;-)
21:12 bacek good thing - now I'm catching errors earlier.
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21:23 dalek parrot: r49650 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:23 dalek parrot: Ressurect usage of GC_generational_2_FLAG for bringing objects into same
21:23 dalek parrot: generation.
21:23 dalek parrot: Main reason - we still have to process objects from current generation
21:23 dalek parrot: because they can have fresh references to young objects.
21:23 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49650/
21:23 dalek parrot: r49651 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:23 dalek parrot: Switch on valiadationf of generation after bringing them together.
21:23 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49651/
21:23 dalek parrot: r49652 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:23 dalek parrot: Set fred Linked_List_Header to 0 for simplify catching of errors.
21:23 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49652/
21:23 dalek parrot: r49653 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:23 dalek parrot: Reduce gc_threshold dramatically to enforce GC collecting for debugging reasons
21:23 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49653/
21:27 whiteknight bacek++
21:27 whiteknight bacek: how is that branch looking now? What help do you need?
21:27 bacek whiteknight, a lot. More eyes basically.
21:28 whiteknight okay, what are my eyes looking for? broken tests? etc?
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21:32 bacek overall logic
21:33 bacek failed asserts
21:33 bacek world domination
21:33 bacek (last one is optional)
21:33 sorear whiteknight++ #More critical review, although I'd still like that PDD fix
21:33 whiteknight what PDD fix?
21:34 whiteknight er, which
21:34 whiteknight there are too many to choose from
21:34 sorear in the sense of a drug fix
21:34 whiteknight ah
21:34 sorear I saw that PDD03 blog post and wants more ;)
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21:35 kid51 sorear:  But we need the fixing in the other sense!  Which one troubles you the most?
21:38 sorear all the ones that have personally fought me havent' made it out of drafts/ yet
21:38 sorear if you want to do 31 be my guest
21:38 sorear (start with the lunacy of havign 2 versions of 31)
21:38 nopaste "kid51" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Current 'svn diff' of generational_gc branch from its branch point." (3106 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/24802
21:39 dalek parrot: r49654 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:39 dalek parrot: Don't process non-black objects during bringing to same generation.
21:39 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49654/
21:39 dalek parrot: r49655 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
21:39 dalek parrot: Add bit of documentation.
21:39 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49655/
21:39 kid51 sorear:  Speaking of "drafts" ...
21:39 kid51 ... can we draft you onto our fix-the-design-and-APIs team?
21:42 * dukeleto just watched an RTEMS guy run Rakudo Perl 6 on RTEMS
21:43 sorear Yes, if my lack of Parrot contributor karma isn't going to be a problem
21:43 bacek left #parrot
21:44 sorear (relative lack(
21:44 plobsing purl, karma sorear
21:45 plobsing aloha, karma sorear
21:45 aloha plobsing: sorear has karma of 150.
21:52 plobsing sorear: 2 versions? 'find docs | grep 31' only turns up one
21:55 sorear I see some kind soul finally deleted docs/pdds/draft/pdd31_hll_interop.pod
21:56 plobsing \o/ progress ... sorta
21:58 kid51 sorear:  Against *my* recommendations, purl was banished from this channel.  aloha as yet only grasps people's *recent* karma.
21:58 kid51 So your karma poses no obstacles to membership on that team :-)
21:58 kid51 is now known as kid51_at_dinner
21:58 plobsing nobody has karma!
21:58 plobsing aloha, karma plobsing
21:58 aloha plobsing: plobsing has karma of 19.
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22:02 sorear aloha grasps karma both here and in #perl6
22:03 sorear in #perl6 I've been frantically committing to something which does not (currently) add value to the Parrot ecosystem
22:04 plobsing I've only done 19 karma-worthy things in the last couple weeks. Tangential work is better than no work.
22:16 kid51_at_dinner left #parrot
22:25 dukeleto plobsing: i bumped into a Minix guy that said you have been asking them lots of detailed questions
22:25 dukeleto plobsing: keep up the good work ;)
22:27 * dukeleto is pair programming with registered Linux user #26
22:30 sorear ... Linux used to require registration?
22:30 dukeleto msg kid51 i have a few more config steps that are needed for Parrot+RTEMS, you game?
22:30 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
22:30 dukeleto sorear: it was optional
22:31 dukeleto sorear: http://counter.li.org/
22:32 dukeleto aloha, karma aloha
22:32 aloha dukeleto: aloha has karma of -5.
22:33 dukeleto lollerskates
22:41 dukeleto msg kid51 i just created TT#1840 and assigned it to you
22:41 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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