Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-10-29

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Time Nick Message
00:04 dalek parrot: r49719 | nwellnhof++ | trunk (2 files):
00:04 dalek parrot: [str] Fix a bug in index op
00:04 dalek parrot: index with a single-byte string and a Unicode search string didn't
00:04 dalek parrot: work. Rework and reenable the multibyte index tests in t/op/string.t.
00:04 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49719/
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00:40 kid51_at-dinner is now known as kid51
00:45 kid51 dukeleto ping
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00:53 kid51 plobsing ping
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01:14 dukeleto kid51: pong (i am going to eat dinner in a few minutes)
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01:21 dalek parrot: r49720 | nwellnhof++ | trunk/src/string/encoding (2 files):
01:21 dalek parrot: [str] Remove unused function
01:21 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49720/
01:21 dalek parrot: r49721 | nwellnhof++ | trunk/t/op (2 files):
01:21 dalek parrot: [t] Add some string tests
01:21 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49721/
01:23 kid51 dukeleto Check your email re message from me re RTEMS.  Get back to me when you've got food (and possibly sleep).
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01:39 kid51 No wonder the tests weren't passing.
01:39 kid51 They were never written!
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01:51 dukeleto kid51: you should join #rtems on freenode
01:51 dukeleto kid51: which OS do you want to install RTEMS?
01:51 dukeleto kid51: OS X? They have virtual machine images
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02:07 dalek parrot: r49722 | jkeenan++ | branches/gsoc_nci/config/auto/libffi.pm:
02:07 dalek parrot: Since there's no verbose output possible inside _evaluate_cc_run(), we don't need to pass $verbose to that sub.
02:08 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49722/
02:08 dalek parrot: r49723 | jkeenan++ | branches/gsoc_nci/config/gen/libffi.pm:
02:08 dalek parrot: Correct spelling error in description.  Eliminate some unneeded code.
02:08 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49723/
02:08 dalek parrot: r49724 | jkeenan++ | branches/gsoc_nci/t/steps (2 files):
02:08 dalek parrot: Refine two configuration step test files.
02:08 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49724/
02:16 kid51 dukeleto: I was planning to install it on Linux (Debian) but not on Darwin
02:17 kid51 dukeleto: Understand that for now I'm only interested in RTEMS to the extent of giving you the configuration step you need.
02:19 dukeleto kid51: you can use rpm2cpi on the Centos 5 debs to create tarballs and then compile them. Ask on #rtems. Tell them dukeleto sent you and that they need it on their wiki for parrot devs to read.
02:19 dukeleto rpm2cpio, rather.
02:19 dukeleto kid51: and i meant centos rpms
02:19 * dukeleto is still sleep-deprived
02:20 kid51 Okay, but as I said in my email, that is a *lot* of work (a) just for a config step; (b) in general for anyone.
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02:43 plobsing kid51: pong
02:49 kid51 plobsing:  While looking at some step tests in gsoc_nci branch, I had occasion to study config/gen/libffi.pm.
02:50 kid51 IIUC, once you know whether the machine has or does not have libffi, you copy one of two template files into position as src/pmc/nci.pmc.
02:50 kid51 Am I understanding that correctly?
02:51 dukeleto kid51: if you don't want to do it, you don't have to.
02:53 kid51 dukeleto:  As i said in email, if I could get a shell with it installed somewhere, that would suffice.
02:53 dukeleto kid51: ask on #rtems
02:53 dukeleto kid51: hmmm
02:53 dukeleto kid51: you should get access to the gcc compile farm
02:53 dukeleto kid51: it has it on them
02:54 dukeleto kid51: all you need to do is ask the mailing list and give your ssh public key, and tell them how you are involved with parrot
02:54 dukeleto kid51: the gcc-farm mailing list
02:54 kid51 dukeleto: I will consider that
02:54 dukeleto kid51: but you can ask #rtems as well
02:54 dalek parrot: r49725 | nwellnhof++ | trunk/src/string/api.c:
02:54 dalek parrot: [pod] Add missing =cuts
02:54 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49725/
02:54 dalek parrot: r49726 | nwellnhof++ | trunk/t/op/string_cs.t:
02:54 dalek parrot: [t] More string tests
02:54 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49726/
02:55 dukeleto kid51: i can run code that you commit to a branch
02:55 dukeleto kid51: but it is better if you have a interactive shell
02:55 dukeleto kid51: all it does is return 1 if __rtems__ is defined, 0 otherwise
02:56 kid51 defined ... where?
02:56 dukeleto kid51: you can write and test on your machine. It will always return false.
02:56 dukeleto kid51: magically by the compiler
02:56 dukeleto kid51: just plain C
02:56 dukeleto kid51: in rtems-flavored gcc
02:57 kid51 Would this be something that would be detectable by config/auto/attributes.pm or config/auto/headers.pm?
02:57 dukeleto kid51: you are the expert there, have fun :)
02:58 kid51 What sort of thingee is '__rtems__' ? A header?  An attribute?
02:59 dukeleto kid51: whatever you want it to be
02:59 kid51 Let's suppose my Linux had RTEMS DE installed.  Where would I look for __rtems__?
03:00 dukeleto kid51: compile a C program and see if it is defined. Does that make sense?
03:00 kid51 dukeleto:  Again I ask, "Defined *where*?"
03:02 kid51 I will try to go on #rtems within the next few days and seek help there.  In the meantime ...
03:02 * kid51 must sleep
03:02 plobsing kid51:  your assessment is correct. I dislike that part though, and am working to eliminate it.
03:08 kid51 plobsing:  Yes, it means that 'src/pmc/nci.pmc' becomes a file generated by Configure.pl ... which means it shouldn't be in MANIFEST ... it should have svn-ignore and .gitignore properties, etc.  And I wonder how it would interact with config/auto/pmc.pm.
03:08 kid51 plobsing:  But I will just monitor what you're doing in that branch and hold my questions till things are more clear.  Thanks.
03:10 plobsing those are exactly some of the reasons I dislike the copy into place approach. I intend to have a canonical version of nci.pmc which calls functions in src/nci/* which vary based on Configure.pl defined C #defines
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03:28 cotto where's our test coverage report at?
03:28 cotto aloha, coverage?
03:28 aloha cotto: coverage is http://cv.perl6.cz or http://tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/cover/cover-results/
03:28 * cotto didn't expect aloha to be useful
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03:36 cotto anyone want me to put them down as a Code-In mentor for increasing PMC test coverage?
03:44 cotto dukeleto, does the list of Code-In tasks need to be fixed or can we have several related tasks (e.g. increase PMC test coverage) without documenting what they all are?
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05:18 dukeleto aloha, msg cotto recurring tasks are fine, as long as they are well-defined
05:18 aloha dukeleto: OK. I'll deliver the message.
05:18 aloha dukeleto: Okay.
05:19 dukeleto aloha, you have an off-by-one error. You should get that looked at.
05:31 cotto dukeleto, thank
05:43 bacek_at_work dukeleto, "known bug" with Infobot plugin...
05:43 bacek_at_work aloha, msg cotto recurring tasks
05:43 aloha bacek_at_work: OK. I'll deliver the message.
05:43 bacek_at_work aloha, msg cotto recurring tasks?
05:43 aloha bacek_at_work: OK. I'll deliver the message.
05:43 aloha bacek_at_work: msg cotto recurring tasks are fine, as long as they are well-defined
05:43 bacek_at_work this one...
05:48 cotto That was odd.
05:49 cotto In soviet Russia, bot tells you to deliver messages.
05:57 bacek_at_work cotto, I didn't have time to fix Bot::BasicBot::Pluggable logic...
05:58 cotto bacek_at_work, sure.  It's a tolerable quirk.
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08:05 sorear aloha: msg kid51 try "gcc -x c -E -dM /dev/null" on your favorite gcc system
08:05 aloha sorear: OK. I'll deliver the message.
08:05 sorear aloha: msg kid51 __rtems__ is in good company
08:05 aloha sorear: OK. I'll deliver the message.
08:05 aloha sorear: Okay.
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08:21 cotto sorear, cool trick
08:36 dalek parrot: r49727 | cotto++ | branches/opmap_aware_pmcs/t/pmc/packfileopmap.t:
08:36 dalek parrot: [t] add tests for PackfileOpMap
08:36 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49727/
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09:21 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#844) fulltest) at r49727 - Ubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5)
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11:09 smash hello everyone
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12:16 kid51 msg sorear Thanks.  Overnight I surmised that what duke was referring to was some kind of environmental data, and your post confirms.
12:16 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
12:17 kid51 msg dukeleto On the machine where you have RTEMS DE, what shows up for /__rtems__/i if you run the command described above by sorear?
12:17 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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12:25 * kid51 ponders whether it would make sense to have all the output of "gcc -x c -E -dM" available via Configure.pl.
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12:28 whiteknight I have no idea what that little incantation does
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16:23 dukeleto 'ello
16:24 dukeleto kid51: why are you not in #rtems/
16:25 dukeleto s!/!?!
16:26 dukeleto kid51: and i have no clue what you are asking me in your msg. I have not backlogged recently. Been busy.
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17:07 whiteknight good afternoon, #parrot
17:07 atrodo good afternoon
17:18 whiteknight hello atrodo, how are you?
17:19 atrodo Not bad.  Working for the man, same old, same old.  How about?
17:20 whiteknight same as you. Workin for the man. Can't get no respect, etc.
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17:30 cotto ~~
17:31 whiteknight hello cotto
17:31 mikehh hi cotto
17:32 cotto so friendly
17:32 whiteknight <3 <3 <3 cotto!!! <3 <3 <3
17:33 dukeleto wow. lotta love in the room today.
17:33 * cotto feels either welcomed or slightly creeped out.  I guess I'll go with welcomed until I notice someone stalking me.
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17:34 mikehh dukeleto: what's up with GCI?
17:35 dukeleto mikehh: i need to do a lot of work for it today
17:35 dukeleto mikehh: the page on the parrot wiki for GCI is going to be for Parrot and Perl GCI projects
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17:36 * dukeleto stalks cotto
17:36 mikehh dukeleto: I spent some time trying to get a list of tests to convert to pir, progressing slowly
17:37 mikehh dukeleto: we need more stuff there
17:38 dukeleto mikehh: think of more non-code tasks. We need our website translated to other languages, and we need web design work
17:38 mikehh dukeleto: seriously lacking tuits there
17:38 cotto Web design work would be amazing.
17:39 mikehh still need to work on html_cleanup branch sometime
17:39 dukeleto cotto: if you could give links that define what PMC and PIR mean in task #3, that would be awesome. Don't we have a parrot glossary?
17:40 dukeleto we can also put gsoc ideas that didn't work out on that page, in case we get a few amazing coding students
17:40 mikehh possibly the pir book in docs/website as a ref
17:40 dukeleto good idea!
17:40 mikehh although it probably need some serious updating
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17:43 dukeleto that is another good task :)
17:44 cotto dukeleto, done
17:44 cotto good idea
17:47 dukeleto one thing that i've learned, there can only be 1 task per student in the code-in webapp, so if we have tasks that multiple students can do, we will need to create a task for each of them
17:47 dukeleto that will mostly be my job, i think
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17:54 mikehh dukeleto: students can work on more than 1 task, sequentially,
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17:55 mikehh for example in converting tests to pir, after the first it becomes a lot easier to convert further tests
17:58 mikehh cotto: as the architect, what is the situation with pasm, some tests use it, shouldn't we move away from that?
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18:10 dukeleto mikehh: yes, i know. I am talking about how the tasks are actually stored in Melange.
18:12 dukeleto mikehh: what is your preferred email/
18:12 dukeleto mikehh: i need to cc you some stuff
18:12 dukeleto mikehh: mike.hind@gmail.com
18:12 dukeleto mikehh: ?
18:18 dukeleto mikehh: we need to make each task have an "optional background" and a "recommended background"
18:19 mikehh dukeleto: that's the one I normally use
18:20 dukeleto mikehh: http://live.gnome.org/GoogleCodeIn/Tasks
18:20 dukeleto mikehh: http://community.kde.org/GoogleCodeIn/2010/Ideas
18:21 dukeleto mikehh: those have a huge number of ideas. We need to emulate those.
18:25 whiteknight dukeleto: I
18:25 dukeleto mikehh: http://www.rtems.org/wiki/in​dex.php/GoogleCodeInProjects
18:25 whiteknight 'll look over the task list today and add details/ideas
18:32 dukeleto whiteknight: the deadline to apply is today, so if you can get some of those ideas in, that would be great
18:44 dukeleto it really sucks that our bots don't show wiki changes still. It is lessening our productivity.
18:44 mikehh too right
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19:12 dukeleto who is a moderator on parrot-members?
19:13 dukeleto if you can pass my email thru, that would be awesome. i sent it from a different address than i signed up on
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19:19 dukeleto mikehh: http://live.gnome.org/Googl​eCodeIn/HowToWriteAGoodTask
19:25 dukeleto I just gave a task template on the wiki page. We need to update these already existing tasks to give the required info.
19:28 dukeleto can anybody fix the wikibot?
19:28 * dukeleto begs
19:30 * dukeleto hates wikis that are not based on git. Someone editing while I was, and now I can't submit my changes.
19:31 * dukeleto curses the trac wiki
19:31 dukeleto it has a merge button, but it is useless
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19:54 mikehh dukeleto: what's your deadline for getting it in?
19:55 mikehh and how much can we change before November 5th
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19:55 dukeleto mikehh: well, the deadline is 4pm today, and our task list will be looked at this weekend, when Google decides which organizations to accept
19:56 dukeleto mikehh: so it is in our best interest to work on the wiki a bunch today and tomorrow. But it needs to be a team effort.
19:56 dukeleto i've add a template
19:57 dukeleto Please use the new template!
19:57 dukeleto aloha msg whiteknight could you please use the new task template I added to the wiki? We need way more details in our tasks.
19:57 aloha dukeleto: OK. I'll deliver the message.
19:58 mikehh dukeleto: so you have about 3 hours to get the proposal in
19:59 cotto mikehh, good question.  For the time being, definitely don't write any new tests in it.
19:59 mikehh dukeleto: can we make changes until they look at it?
20:00 mikehh cotto: was thinking in terms of converting pasm to pir maybe for GIC
20:01 mikehh cotto: we have perl based tests thet output pasm code and evaluate the output (also pir based as well)
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20:03 mikehh cotto: I was trying to define some tasks in terms of converting the perl based tests to convert to pir based ones, but what to do about pasm code?
20:04 plobsing we have pasm code?
20:04 mikehh cotto: was looking at tests that have some form of >>CODE >>OUTPUT in the perl
20:04 mikehh plobsing: yes in a couple of cases
20:04 plobsing oh in test cases.
20:05 mikehh plobsing: that's what I was looking at
20:06 plobsing what we really need is a similar interface to what the perl code uses. call down into a *separate* process. Some tests flat out shouldn't be run in the same interpreter because failure usually means crashing out and missing the other tests.
20:06 cotto mikehh, if you think that it'd be a reasonable task, +1 to converting them
20:07 cotto plobsing, that'd be nice.
20:07 plobsing it's at the end of a long queue of todo tasks for me. Unfortunately, the queue is weak refs and I have an agressive GC.
20:08 dukeleto mikehh: i think you misunderstand something about translating tests
20:08 mikehh dukeleto: elaborate
20:08 dukeleto mikehh: some of our tests must be in PASM, because they actually test PASM. Some of our tests are needlessly in PASM, but converting them over doesn't buy us much.
20:09 cotto Sure.  Translating test from perl to pure pir is valuable for different reasons than moving from PASM to pir.
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20:09 dukeleto mikehh: so while there exist a nonzero number of pasm tests that *could* be translated, what is the benefit?
20:09 cotto actually, I guess it depends on how much pain will be involved in getting PIRATE to support the PASM that's used.
20:09 dukeleto mikehh: i understand the benefit of PASM vs PIR, but what is the benefit to change already existing code that works?
20:10 dukeleto cotto: exactly.
20:10 dukeleto Translating tests now, before Lorito, is not a good investment. Some of them will have to change for Lorito.
20:10 cotto If PIRATE supports it, there's no reason to bother.
20:11 dukeleto PASM is a Parrot Language, and it is fine to be in our test suite.
20:11 mikehh dukeleto: just getting some ideas together, but in those instances where we are not directly testing pasm, I was woring on the basis that pasm isn't actually going to be around
20:11 dukeleto But we shouldn't needlessly write new tests in PASM or anything.
20:11 mikehh working
20:11 dukeleto mikehh: pasm will be around for a long time.
20:12 mikehh dukeleto: I got the impression not
20:12 dukeleto mikehh: i think looking at our code coverage reports, and choosing the top 5 critical subsystems that have the lowest coverage, is a good start.
20:12 dukeleto mikehh: then start writing tests for those subsystems, to bring up coverage.
20:12 dukeleto mikehh: that makes a good meta-plan for the QA team
20:13 cotto aloha, clock?
20:13 aloha cotto: cotto: LAX: Fri, 13:13 PDT / CHI: Fri, 15:13 CDT / NYC: Fri, 16:13 EDT / UTC: Fri, 20:13 UTC / LON: Fri, 21:13 BST / BER: Fri, 22:13 CEST / TOK: Sat, 05:13 JST / SYD: Sat, 07:13 EST
20:13 cotto bacek, ping
20:13 mikehh dukeleto: yes in the long term, I was concentrating on tasks for GCI
20:14 mikehh dukeleto: mind you getting a list of tasks together is good anyway
20:14 dukeleto mikehh: making students do something that is not useful but easy is still not useful.
20:15 dukeleto mikehh: but i very much appreciate your help.
20:15 dukeleto mikehh: we need more detailed tasks
20:15 dukeleto mikehh: they can actually say "translate this specific file to X"
20:15 dukeleto mikehh: we are dealing with high school students. They need *very specific" instructions, in digestible sizes.
20:16 dukeleto mikehh: you can copy and paste 10 files to translate and create a task for eafch
20:16 dukeleto each, even
20:16 dukeleto mikehh: but maybe getting them to increase coverage for the systems you identify would be better
20:17 dukeleto mikehh: i don't think in terms of "the long term". This is the long term. If you identify the subsystems that need code coverage most deperately, you can add each as a task.
20:17 mikehh dukeleto:  I was getting a list together of files that could be moved from perl to pir, but will look at the other as well
20:17 dukeleto mikehh: and it could even be "increase code coverage of this subsystem by 10%"
20:17 dukeleto mikehh: think small, and create many tasks
20:17 dukeleto mikehh: other orgs have *hundreds* of tasks
20:17 dukeleto we can ask for as much as we want, they just have to be smallish chunks of work
20:19 mikehh dukeleto: I can do that, but I don't think I can have it ready in three hours, I need to go somewhere now
20:19 cotto mikehh, are you making a list of which PMCs need better coverage and would be good candidates for the GCI list?
20:19 cotto (I want to make sure it gets done.  I don't mind doing it myself.)
20:19 dukeleto mikehh: any work you can do today or tomorrow would be very useful.
20:19 dukeleto mikehh: Google will be announcing the accepted orgs on Nov 5th
20:20 dukeleto mikehh: and we can continually add to the task list during Code-In. We just want a good enough task list to get accepted. Make sense?
20:28 mikehh dukeleto: yes
20:29 cotto dukeleto, are slots allocated similarly to gsoc or do approved orgs get as many slots as they can get students to fill them?
20:30 dukeleto cotto: i don't know how slots work. I don't know if there *are* slots. All i know about is tasks.
20:31 cotto ok.  So the goal is to get lots of tasks on the wiki and hope for the best.
20:31 * dukeleto asks people who know
20:31 dukeleto cotto: yes.
20:31 cotto eoq
20:34 dukeleto 13:33:23 <@carols> dukeleto: yes, you can add tasks and you can even have a queue of tasks that the students can't see so  you can release things to work on at your own pace
20:34 dukeleto 13:33:33 <@carols> dukeleto: you can add tasks whenever you want
20:34 dukeleto that is from #gsoc on freenode
20:35 * dukeleto hopes the logging demons don't come to eat him
20:35 dukeleto so, we can add tasks all the time! We just have to have enough to get accepted and attract students.
20:38 dukeleto Students can only choose from our tasks. They can't design their own. This is probably good.
20:38 dukeleto But it means we need to have stuff that people want to do. And to describe it in an exciting way.
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20:43 mikehh dukeleto: I have to go to a meeting now, will try to add some stuff later, hope it will be in time to be of use, bbl
20:47 dukeleto mikehh: thanks!
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22:08 dukeleto We should be thinking about tasks that will take a total beginner less than a week to complete, if possible. Some tasks can be bigger, but students are going to want smaller tasks.
22:09 tadzik is Google Codein <18 only?
22:09 dukeleto They get paid a small amount for each task completed, so they are going to look for reasonable stuff
22:09 dukeleto tadzik: 13-18
22:09 dukeleto tadzik: why do you ask?
22:09 tadzik dukeleto: I'd like to get involved, yet GSoC always seems to hard to me
22:09 tadzik s/to/too/
22:09 tadzik hmm, s:2nd/to/too/
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22:24 mikehh dukeleto: how's it going?
22:25 mikehh dukeleto: I updated the wikiu page with a possible list of tasks (ungraded at the moment)
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22:26 mikehh dukeleto: that's tests that could be converted to pir
22:27 mikehh dukeleto: possibly, maybe or whatever
22:33 dngor left #parrot
22:57 dukeleto mikehh: did you use the template?
22:57 dukeleto mikehh: we need help converting all the tasks to the new template, which is listed just below the description of Code-In
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23:06 mikehh dukeleto: I'll tidy it up that way after I get some sleep, it's after midnight for me
23:15 dukeleto mikehh: thanks. I appreciate your heroic effort.
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23:21 sorear hello kid51
23:26 kid51 sorear hello
23:26 kid51 sorear I like that command you posted.
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23:47 dalek parrot: r49728 | jkeenan++ | branches/gcc_defines:
23:47 dalek parrot: Creating a branch to explore configuration modifications inspired by sorear++.
23:47 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49728/
23:58 bacek_mobile joined #parrot
23:59 bacek_mobile ~~
23:59 bacek_mobile Cotto, pong
23:59 cotto bacek, how does PASM fit in to PIRATE?

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