Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-11-07

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:52 Infinoid sorear: hi
01:59 cottoo dukeleto, ping
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02:33 kid51 msg whiteknight Can you set up your new blog so that it clones to planet.parrotcode.org?  Thanks.
02:33 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
02:34 whiteknight kid51: I don't actually know how to do that right now
02:34 whiteknight I guess Coke would know
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02:35 kid51 cotto probably knows.  he recently got his new blog cloning there.
02:35 whiteknight Coke put it there
02:37 whiteknight I'll see if I can get in touch with ask or robert on #perl
02:38 whiteknight I know I used to have commit access to the repository that ran planet.parrotcode.org,but I have long since forgotten all the credentials
02:42 cottoo msg dukeleto What time will work for you to do the git migration this Monday?
02:42 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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03:08 whiteknight is that the general timeframe? Monday?
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03:10 sorear Infinoid: still here?
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03:24 Infinoid sorear: for the moment :)
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03:33 sorear Infinoid: I've split the running instance of dalek into two programs
03:34 sorear the big scary botnix part is just running a tail -f now
03:34 sorear the scrapers are writing into a queue file
03:36 sorear so.
03:36 sorear 1. I can easily do push stuff now - just write into /home/drain/dalek-poller/queue
03:36 sorear (chattr +a to prevent accidents)
03:38 sorear 2. the interesting part of dalek no longer requires a bot account to be set up or anything like that.  I hope to see a bit more hacking on https://github.com/sorear/dalek-poller now :)
03:38 sorear 3. dalek-poller can be restarted without affecting dalek
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04:50 cottoo sorear, are you the one who's to blame for dalek posting about wiki changes now?
04:51 sorear cottoo: I'm the only person actually doing anything with dalek now, so, I guess?
04:52 sorear I'll look into wiki changes tomorrow
04:58 cottoo sorear++ then
04:58 cottoo is now known as cotto
05:49 dalek parrot: r49793 | petdance++ | trunk (4 files):
05:49 dalek parrot: adding compiler annotations to functions and args
05:49 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49793/
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10:29 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
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13:13 whiteknight I cannot figure out where the -G command-line argument is handled
13:13 whiteknight or the --no-gc variant
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13:15 whiteknight blah, nevermind. I find it as soon as I complain
13:21 kid51 ./src/longopt.c:88:        { 'G', 'G', (OPTION_flags)0, { "--no-gc" } },
13:21 kid51 ./src/main.c:310:    "    -G --no-gc\n"
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13:25 Infinoid cotto, sorear: My guess is that dalek isn't polling wiki changes because the new machine it's currently running on is missing some CPAN modules.  I talked with diakopter about getting access to that machine at one point, but it hasn't happened yet
13:25 whiteknight kid51: yeah, that's what I found. However, looking around, I can't find any place that actually implements the logic for it
13:26 kid51 Maybe it was never implemented.
13:27 whiteknight ah, no. I think I just found it. The whole thing is implicit
13:28 whiteknight we always turn off GC in IMCC. But if the -G option is specified we never re-enable it
13:31 whiteknight damnit. All this commandline processing is terribly implemented, and spread out all over the code base
13:31 whiteknight I thought the goal of something like longopt was to prevent that
13:35 kid51 whiteknight:  If some newcomer to Parrot were to read your blog posts and then ask, "Where can I find out the *current* Parrot API?", how would you respond?
13:35 whiteknight there really is no "current Parrot API"
13:36 whiteknight All exported functions are treated as fair-game, and most functions are exported
13:38 kid51 Does that mean that any function in the source code labelled PARROT_EXPORT is part of the API?
13:39 whiteknight see, that's the problem: Nobody has ever made a decision about that
13:39 whiteknight and just because the functions are available for use doesn't mean they were ever sanctioned as being some kind of "API"
13:40 whiteknight it's a case where nobody ever made a decision, so users did for themselves
13:40 kid51 Is this document of any use:  ./docs/dev/parrot_api.pod  ?
13:40 kid51 Would we consider something like NQP to be part of the API?
13:41 whiteknight sort of, but not really
13:41 kid51 or PCT?
13:43 whiteknight I don't know. I sincerely don't.
13:43 whiteknight The "API" is whatever interface we should be exposing and supporting under the deprecation policy
13:43 whiteknight but then there are sections of it, like there's an API to libparrot (which I am focusing on), there's an API to the parrot executable (the CLI options), an API for libraries, etc
13:44 whiteknight it all depends what is supported by the deprecation policy
13:45 whiteknight but again, nobody ever made an active decision about it: We had a bunch of functions, then we accepted a deprecation policy, and now everything is up in the air
13:48 kid51 So, does that imply that a re-look at the deprecation policy is needed as part of the product management team's work?
13:51 whiteknight I hope so. I hate that policy up and down
13:52 kid51 And, in brief, the new policy should be ...?
13:53 whiteknight All API members are opt-in. Nothing is considered supported unless we've evaluated it's fitness and specifically approved it
13:54 whiteknight that's my opinion of it, I would like to hear other ideas
13:54 whiteknight but I know several people, Rakudo devs especially, have been unhappy with the policy in the past
13:55 dalek parrot: r49794 | jkeenan++ | trunk/docs/dev/parrot_api.pod:
13:55 dalek parrot: Correct POD formatting errors.
13:55 dalek parrot: review: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/49794/
13:55 kid51 Rakudo devs have been unhappy with "current policy" .. or with what you just advocated as a new policy?
14:01 whiteknight with current policy
14:02 whiteknight I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth. We should ask them before assuming that they are actually unhappy with it
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16:37 dalek TT #396 closed by jkeenan++: 32/64-bit cpu in smolder report
16:37 dalek TT #396: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/396
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17:55 tadzik when is the new NCI planned to land?
17:56 dalek TT #1842 created by plobsing++: Linking against libparrot not as documented
17:56 dalek TT #1842: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1842
17:56 plobsing tadzik: it is more or less in a mergeable state ATM, but svn has eaten more babies than usual on that branch, so I'm waiting for git.
17:57 tadzik plobsing: cool. So it could be even tuesday or so?
17:58 plobsing it could be today, if you're willing to resolve 92 meaningless svn conflicts (which I am not)
17:58 tadzik sure thing
17:58 tadzik (that neither do I)
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18:07 moritz speaking of git... I noticed that audrey has two nicks in the svn log
18:07 plobsing whiteknight: please consider TT #1842 as my application to be a part of the embedding api task force
18:07 moritz audreyt and autrijus  -- joining them wouldn't be bad
18:11 plobsing tadzik: (re: expectations of a better NCI API expressed on #perl6) the new NCI is the exact same as the old NCI, just with the ability to build call frames dynamically. It specifically does not change the way structs are handled.
18:12 tadzik oh
18:12 tadzik so what does it change actually?
18:14 plobsing you can call arbitrarily signature-d functions. Before you were limited to a finite set provided by core parrot (you also had the ability to add others with parrot_nci_thunk_gen, but nobody did)
18:15 plobsing tadzik: what about ManagedStruct/UnManagedStruct are insufficient in this case?
18:16 tadzik plobsing: looks so. Yet, as jnthn says on #perl6, it's hard but possible to achieve
18:34 cotto moritz, thanks for noticing that.  dukeleto would be the one to ping.  I think your change in CREDITS hasn't been moved to git yet so it won't be too much extra work to update audreyt's entries.
18:58 whiteknight plobsing: application accepted, sight unseen
19:01 whiteknight I hadn't realized linking against libparrot was a problem
19:01 plobsing I've got an embbed parrot in vim project perpetually on the back burner. that's one of the problems I've run into.
19:03 dalek tracwiki: v4 | whiteknight++ | ProductManagementTeam
19:03 dalek tracwiki: +plobsing
19:04 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Produc​tManagementTeam?version=4&action=diff
19:04 plobsing the others I can think of off the top of my head are already well known: managing Parrot_Interp, and calling exit()
19:07 cotto dukeleto, ping
19:11 plobsing afk # shopping
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19:25 allison virtual developer summit sometime today?
19:25 allison I didn't see any reminders go out, or any settled time
19:30 * cotto neither
19:33 cotto dukeleto suggested that doodle.com would be a good tool, but nobody took up the task to set up an event and make sure people scheduled their availability.
19:33 cotto I'll do that now.
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19:36 cotto How nice.  They don't care what characters I have in my password.  That's becoming depressingly rare.
19:36 whiteknight We definitely *should* have a PDS sometime soon, but I think this is not the weekend
19:37 whiteknight something informal is always cool, but we obviously didn't send out enough firm, advanced notice for anything "official"
19:37 cotto whiteknight, no.  That wouldn't be a reasonable amount of notice.
19:40 allison yeah, not enough advance warning
19:40 allison maybe next sunday?
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19:44 cotto I'm setting up the event now.
19:44 whiteknight cotto++
19:44 cotto doodle does a good job of allowing people to list the the times that they'll be available so we can pretty easily pick one that works for the largest number of people.
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19:47 cotto any idea of how long we should expect the meeting to be?
19:48 whiteknight at least two hours
19:51 cotto I'll say 3.  I'm sure it could go on forever, but we should be able to hit the most important points within that time.
19:51 cotto wfy?
19:52 whiteknight fine for me
19:54 cotto done
20:02 whiteknight link?
20:03 cotto sent to parrot-dev
20:04 cotto http://doodle.com/q4nwdt9i5k929n2s
20:12 cotto Apparently changing your availability is nyi.
20:13 whiteknight cotto: did you remove yourself?
20:13 whiteknight because as soon as I saved my times, you disappeared
20:18 cotto Yes.  I need to figure out my schedule first.
20:18 cotto I didn't realize that you can't go back and change, though there may be some way I missed.
20:25 cotto ok.  It does let you edit entries.  I just didn't see it before because it's a bit circuitous.  Go to "edit an entry" on the poll page and it'll let you do what you like.
20:29 whiteknight I haven't gotten an email about it to the mailinglist
20:39 cotto I sent it but haven't seen anything either.
20:49 cotto figuring out my schedule for the next couple months is turning out to be quite the yak shaving exercise
20:56 whiteknight why? busy?
20:57 cotto somewhat, but I also need to do a bunch of coordinating for some church stuff
20:57 whiteknight ah, gotcha.
20:58 cotto and the typical method of organization is "oh, I guess we should do that." unless someone is on the ball
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21:22 sorear Infinoid: it appears to be working?  c.f. "tracwiki" announce a couple hours ago
21:23 sorear Infinoid: this may be related to me having installed Crypt::SSLeay on the box yesterday though.
21:48 Infinoid sorear: Oh, great. :)
21:48 Infinoid cotto: Anything else missing at this point?
21:49 cotto Infinoid, wrt dalek I'm happy as long as it follows tickets, the wiki and scrapes the appropriate wiki pages.
21:50 Infinoid Okay, thanks.  Trac tickets and trac wiki were the two things I had been told were down, but they both have reported things today
21:50 cotto Great.  Thanks.
21:51 Infinoid sorear++
22:02 cotto If anyone here is interested in attending the Parrot Developer Summit, please mark your availability on Doodle: http://doodle.com/q4nwdt9i5k929n2s
22:02 cotto I sent a message to parrot-dev but it doesn't seem to have hit the list yet.
22:05 plobsing whoa, that's a lot of possible times
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22:39 sorear cotto: could you explain this scraping thing?
22:39 sorear I was actually planning to rip out the scraping, since it's completely broken and the dalek-conf.json approach seems to work much better
22:40 sorear Infinoid: Did you catch what I said yestday about the changes I've made?
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23:52 * sorear pings cotto
23:54 whiteknight dec 4th or 5th are front-runners right now
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