Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2010-12-14

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 dalek parrot/embed_api2: c31e7a5 | Whiteknight++ | src/global_setup.c:
00:05 dalek parrot/embed_api2: make sure we initialize the library paths array before the config hash. The library paths array has two parts: part that is static and part that comes from the config hash. We want to make sure we setup the static parts first
00:05 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/c31e7a5b40
00:05 dalek parrot/embed_api2: 8b915b2 | Whiteknight++ | / (5 files):
00:05 dalek parrot/embed_api2: Merge branch 'embed_api2' of github.com:parrot/parrot into embed_api2
00:05 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/8b915b2e24
00:07 whiteknight Coke: ping
00:13 dalek parrot/bulgarian_readme: 51f05a3 | dukeleto++ | README.български:
00:13 dalek parrot/bulgarian_readme: [doc] Bulgarian translation of our README, from a GCI student
00:13 dalek parrot/bulgarian_readme: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/51f05a34a2
00:14 kid51 dukeleto: ping
00:14 dukeleto My stance on translations is that we can add bad/unedited translations in branches and get them improved.
00:14 dukeleto kid51: pong
00:15 kid51 Yes.  Could we get luben to look at that?  (I have some coworkers who might, as well.)
00:17 dukeleto kid51: delegate as you see fit, just not to me.
00:17 * dukeleto is on vacation
00:18 dukeleto our dynops have horrific test coverage
00:18 Coke whiteknight: pong.
00:19 Coke updating...
00:19 whiteknight Coke: I've pushed those changes. should reduce some warnings
00:19 whiteknight although looking back at your make log, I think there are more warnings to fix still
00:19 whiteknight Those warnings about interp getting clobbered aren't fixed
00:20 Coke I'll post a fresh log in about 4m.
00:20 dalek parrot: f123b30 | jkeenan++ | / (7 files):
00:20 dalek parrot: Complete work on http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/532.  Change
00:20 dalek parrot: Parrot::Headerizer::Object back to simply Parrot::Headerizer.
00:20 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f123b3079b
00:20 dalek parrot: 5b8fb37 | jkeenan++ | / (4 files):
00:20 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:parrot/parrot
00:20 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/5b8fb372b7
00:21 plobsing dukeleto: dynop coverage is poor because of our bias against using anything not deemed "core" in tests
00:22 dukeleto plobsing: no. It is poor because we are lazy.
00:22 dukeleto plobsing: no other reason
00:23 dukeleto Laziness isn't necessarily a bad thing, either.
00:23 nopaste "coke" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "latest build failure for whiteknight++" (1311 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/27055
00:23 whiteknight blarg
00:26 whiteknight I'm fixing that warning with clobbered interp first, I'll fix that failure next
00:31 whiteknight Actually, looking at that log I thought I had already fixed that particular problem
00:31 whiteknight so that's weird
00:33 * kid51 tests embed_api2 on darwin/ppc (10.4)
00:33 whiteknight kid51: I have some fixes coming soon
00:34 whiteknight kid51: what compiler do you use there, gcc?
00:34 kid51 gcc as compiler; g++ for link, etc.
00:35 kid51 Same routine which Coke taught me lo these many years ago!
00:36 kid51 echo "MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET is $MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET"
00:36 kid51 CC="/usr/bin/gcc"
00:36 kid51 CX="/usr/bin/g++"
00:36 kid51 --ld="$CX" \
00:36 kid51 --configure_trace \
00:36 kid51 $@
00:36 kid51 better:
00:36 kid51 CC="/usr/bin/gcc";CX="/usr/b​in/g++";/usr/local/bin/perl Configure.pl --cc="$CC" --cxx="$CX" --link="$CX" --ld="$CX"
00:38 kid51 is now known as kid51_at_dinner
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: e38be63 | Whiteknight++ | src/embed/embed_private.h:
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: attempted fix for a series of warnings Coke++ is seeing
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e38be63af8
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: 8dac9d1 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: fix function which defines a return value but never uses return
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/8dac9d1bc4
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: 4fdb89b | Whiteknight++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: fix makefile to properly build installable parrot
00:39 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/4fdb89b90e
00:39 dalek TT #532 closed by jkeenan++: Finish headerizer refactor
00:39 dalek TT #532: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/532
00:39 whiteknight okay, fixes are here. Coke, kid51: if you're able to test these I would appreciate it
00:45 whiteknight updating embed_api2 to trunk is going to be messy. I did a mock run earlier today
00:45 whiteknight I want to make sure things are working well and I fix all existing problems first
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01:26 whiteknight okay, I'm signing off for thenight. Thanks for the testing
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01:44 kid51_at_dinner Hmm, those latest commits came after I started my test runs; will have to reconfigure, etc.
01:44 kid51_at_dinner is now known as kid51
01:56 fbrito off-topic: are you guys aware of the meteor shower that is going to happen in the next few hours?
02:11 kid51 sky is overcast here, so no meteors for kid51
02:18 plobsing same here. cloud and snow obstruct my view.
02:25 fbrito NASA is talking about 100 meteors/hour
02:25 mikehh left #parrot
02:25 Coke snow--
02:28 plobsing Coke: when you deal with heat and sun as poorly as I do, you tend to accept the other seasons
02:28 plobsing can't hate the weather all the time
02:30 Coke oh, I had a chance to live in TX, but moved back to upstate NY. I like snow. I'm just mad I'm going to miss the meteors.
02:32 Coke msg whiteknight - build worked.
02:33 kid51 Coke: try 'make testr'
02:36 nopaste "kid51" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "embed_api2 branch: 'make testr' errors, analyzed" (140 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/27058
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02:39 mikehh kid51: just replied to youe email, as I have said before, I think we need to keep the requirement that all functions need documentation
02:41 Coke t/tools/pbc_dump.t fails for me.
02:43 kid51 Curiously, that passes for me: $ perl t/harness -r t/tools/pbc_dump.t
02:43 kid51 t/tools/pbc_dump.t .. ok
02:43 kid51 All tests successful.
02:44 Coke kid51: and yes, tons of failures in testr.
02:58 kid51 But the kind of errors in make testr is fairly consistent, as apparent from my last paste.
02:58 kid51 Well, maybe whiteknight will figure something out.
03:17 kid51 dukeleto: ping
03:20 * kid51 must sleep
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05:03 sorear so nobody knows anything about the PIR LALR(1) parser generator?  bummer
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13:00 fbrito hi guys
13:01 tadzik hi
13:01 fbrito my "make cover" is generating something  like this: http://tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/cover/cover-res​ults/2010-12/2010-12-07-7717682/c_cover/ but only with 4 or 5 files... what should I do? did I forget to install something?
13:06 tadzik oh, I have a bug in mk_language_shell.pl – http://wklej.org/id/437820/ It's using the dot as a languagu name
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13:58 whiteknight good morning #parrot
13:59 whiteknight still no aloha, apparently
14:00 atrodo it's a shame, really
14:01 dalek parrot/embed_api2: 09cde93 | Whiteknight++ | / (8 files):
14:01 dalek parrot/embed_api2: Merge branch 'embed_api2' of github.com:parrot/parrot into embed_api2
14:01 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/09cde93c80
14:04 sECuRE left #parrot
14:07 Coke has anyone msg'd bacek about it?
14:08 sECuRE joined #parrot
14:09 whiteknight aloha msg bacek aloha is broken!
14:10 Coke ... I'll tweet him.
14:10 whiteknight :)
14:13 fbrito whiteknight: good morning :D
14:13 fbrito ah, I have a question... my "make cover" is generating something  like this: http://tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/cover/cover-res​ults/2010-12/2010-12-07-7717682/c_cover/ but only with 4 or 5 files... what should I do? did I forget to install something?
14:13 tadzik hi whiteknight
14:17 whiteknight good morning fbrito, tadzik
14:18 whiteknight fbrito: I think make cover may be broken or something
14:18 whiteknight at least, it was a few weeks ago and I didn't fix it
14:18 whiteknight somebody else may have
14:19 whiteknight those coverage numbers look good to me. What do you think is missing?
14:20 fbrito those are fine, but when I run it locally, it has only 5 files
14:20 whiteknight oh, okay. I see
14:20 whiteknight yeah, so it's probably still broken
14:21 whiteknight but wait, another student was doing some coverage-based test tasks
14:21 whiteknight we probably need to wait for cotto to get back so we can figure out what is going on
14:26 fbrito ah, ok
14:30 fbrito hm, I think I found something wrong with acosh of complex numbers with negative image
14:31 fbrito not ok 529 - acosh of 0-1i: # Have: -0.881374+1.570796i
14:32 fbrito but http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=acosh(0-1i) has a result with opposite signs
14:32 whiteknight weird
14:33 whiteknight is that a bug in Parrot, or a bug in the acosh library function?
14:38 fbrito hm
14:41 whiteknight because I know that there are several problems relating to those trancendental functions on various platforms. I don't think they are well-tested
14:48 fbrito whiteknight: and there are also lots of functions returning -0.0
14:48 whiteknight fbrito: negative zero is okay in some cases
14:48 whiteknight in fact, we have some tests that expect negative zero
14:52 tadzik http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/examples​/languages/squaak/doc/tutorial_episode_4.pod.html -- where are those in Parrot tree?
14:52 whiteknight tadzik: Not in the Parrot tree anymore
14:52 tadzik whiteknight: where are they then?
14:53 whiteknight looks like they are at https://github.com/ekiru/squaak-tutorial
14:53 whiteknight although I suspect they should also be mirrored under the parrot organization too
14:53 tadzik „A repo I used to update the Squaak tutorial. This repo is now out-of-date.”
14:53 tadzik neh, weird
14:54 whiteknight okay, I've forked it here: https://github.com/parrot/squaak-tutorial
14:54 whiteknight so it probably needs to be brought back up to date
14:56 tadzik I'll be giving a Parrot talk on friday on a local LUG meeting and I'd like to show some compiler fun, but I have to learn it first :)
14:57 whiteknight oh, that's fun. Where's the LUG?
14:57 tadzik on my Uni. It's not any officiacl LUG actually
14:58 tadzik Warsaw, Poland, if that's what you mean
14:58 whiteknight oh, okay
14:59 tadzik ...too far? :)
14:59 whiteknight much too far
15:04 atrodo whiteknight> What happened to your private jet? ;)
15:04 bluescreen left #parrot
15:07 whiteknight tadzik: I knew a person a long time ago who went to University in Warsaw
15:09 whiteknight atrodo: my imaginary jet is in the imaginary shop for repairs
15:09 whiteknight it's reality is broken
15:09 atrodo i hate it when reality is broken
15:09 tadzik whiteknight: remember the name?
15:10 whiteknight tadzik: only the screenname. Derbeth
15:11 tadzik btw, I created the new language with mk_language_shell. Then I changed rule statementlist { [ <statement> | <?> ] ** ';' } to rule statementlist { [ <statement> | <?> ] ** \n }, but the code 'print("foo")\nprint("bar")' does not even parse. Am I missing something?
15:12 dalek parrot/embed_api2: d4a7f12 | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/debug.c:
15:12 dalek parrot/embed_api2: fix most testr failures. IMCC, and anybody else who isn't libparrot, should never call Parrot_x_exit directly. Use Parrot_x_jump_out_error instead
15:12 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/d4a7f12586
15:12 dalek parrot/embed_api2: 2e9b4e6 | Whiteknight++ | t/op/exit.t:
15:12 dalek parrot/embed_api2: the test that I un-todo'd turns out to be bad and needs to be removed. Failures in loading/running pbc shouldn't exit with status 0 by default. that's stupid. Failures in program execution should signal that to the OS. I've removed the test entirely instead of re-TODOing it
15:12 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/2e9b4e6c5e
15:12 whiteknight tadzik: I have no idea. That's probably a question for some NQP folks
15:12 whiteknight pmichaud, jnthn, or moritz would probably know immediately
15:12 tadzik nqp folks around?
15:12 tadzik probably
15:13 whiteknight they would say that "LOL ur parse is t3h failz"
15:13 tadzik hmm, I can check the LOLCODE code
15:13 whiteknight Coke, kid51: ping
15:14 whiteknight does LOLCODE work now?
15:14 tadzik yep
15:14 tadzik fails some tests, but works
15:14 tadzik it uses some old nqp too
15:16 whiteknight oh
15:18 tadzik hm?
15:19 tadzik btw, I'm actually on WUT (Warsaw University of Technology), not University of Warsaw :)
15:22 Coke whiteknight: yes?
15:23 Coke retest embed_api2?
15:24 Coke when I run "make cover", I get a ton of files.
15:24 Coke $ ack -fa cover_db/ | wc -l 313
15:25 * tadzik out
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15:28 Coke whiteknight: it still builds.
15:30 nopaste "coke" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "embed_api2 for whiteknight++" (1979 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/27078
15:30 Coke latest warnings posted.
15:30 * cotto will be back to normal in a few hours.
15:31 Coke thanks for the warning.
15:33 whiteknight Coke: if you get a chance can you make testr?
15:33 Coke passes.
15:33 Coke running fulltest.
15:34 dukeleto ~~
15:34 whiteknight oh, awesome. Coke++
15:34 whiteknight I'm sure fulltest will freak. There are lots of codetests that are going to die painfully
15:34 whiteknight I haven't gotten to that point yet
15:37 Coke "make library_tests" fails.
15:37 Coke t/tools/pbc_dump.t fails all tests.
15:37 Coke (and ISTR there are warnings on that build.)
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15:40 dukeleto whiteknight: have you seen this submitted work? http://socghop.appspot.com/gci/task/show/google​/gci2010/parrot_perl_foundations/t129130699951
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15:41 smash hello everyone
15:42 Coke hio
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15:43 whiteknight hello smash
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16:00 whiteknight ha, I just read the "release notes" from the attack on Gawker, and they are hilarious.
16:01 whiteknight it's just a comedy of errors on the part of the Gawker admins. At every step they used the worst possible security, and then continued the badmouth the people who were attacking them
16:01 whiteknight the hackers kept getting angrier, and kept doing worse and worse things
16:02 whiteknight went into the DB and dropped all tables, sudo rm -rf, etc
16:05 * atrodo reminds himself not to be a douche
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16:09 whiteknight no, this is nothing to capitalize on. It's just funny that the security at Gawker would be so low, and they would continue to taunt the hackers who were logged into their system at the time
16:10 whiteknight a little bit of humilty might have saved them from the worst-case scenario
16:10 atrodo Exactly
16:10 whiteknight a little bit of good security definitely would have
16:11 atrodo Never hurts.  But being aware of what to do in the event of security breach is just as important
16:11 whiteknight right
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16:11 whiteknight not using the same password on all sites you visit is a good thing. Using OpenID with a provider you trust is even better
16:12 atrodo Aye.  Looks like I'll be seriously considering doing exactly that
16:17 whiteknight I share passwords on some sites, but I break it up. So bank websites use a different password from my parrot stuff, which uses a different password from my email address, which uses a different password from unimportant crap
16:18 whiteknight and that's probably still not good enough
16:19 dalek parrot: 07df1ca | NotFound++ | / (3 files):
16:19 dalek parrot: add the throws_type function to Test;More and use it in a new test for Namespace
16:19 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/07df1ca0fd
16:22 fbrito whiteknight: so, about my GCI task (increase code coverage of Complex PMC): what should I do with the asech "bugs" that I found? create a bug ticket and mark the test as TODO? and since I couldn't run "make cover", I don't know if I increased the coverage more than 10%
16:27 whiteknight fbrito: what system are you on? Coke said he was able to make cover this morning with no problems
16:29 whiteknight fbrito: for your question, create tickets and mark the failing tests TODO
16:31 fbrito I will try "make cover" again... going to lunch right now. be right back
16:31 whiteknight okay
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17:14 NotFound Exception type 0 is EXCEPTION_BAD_BUFFER_SIZE, but a lot of places use 0 as "I don't know or don't care". So I propose to set type 0 as EXCEPTION_UNKNOWN_TYPE
17:16 NotFound Or maybe just move EXCEPTION_INVALID_OPERATION to 0
17:17 dalek parrot: 07d9124 | NotFound++ | src/pmc/namespace.pmc:
17:17 dalek parrot: use appropiate exception types in Namespace.export_to method
17:17 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/07d9124b23
17:19 bluescreen_ whiteknight: is make library_tests failing for you
17:19 bluescreen_ its passing in my computer
17:19 dalek parrot: 33a5288 | NotFound++ | t/pmc/namespace.t:
17:19 dalek parrot: more tests for Namespace methods
17:19 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/33a5288719
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17:21 cotto_work2 ~~
17:21 cotto_work2 is now known as cotto_work
17:28 whiteknight bluescreen: I haven't tried it
17:28 bluescreen_ ok... the only thing failing in the fulltests are the coding stds
17:29 dalek TT #1891 created by fbrito++: Problems with acosh, asech, atanh and acoth  in Complex PMC
17:29 dalek TT #1891: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1891
17:29 dalek parrot: b9e4e73 | NotFound++ | runtime/parrot/library/Test/More.pir:
17:29 dalek parrot: fix typos from 07df1ca
17:29 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b9e4e7303f
17:36 mikehh hmmnn, I commited the same changes locally, how do I revert? - in my local repo
17:38 mikehh or is it easier just to clone it again?
17:40 NotFound mikehh: create a branch, delete master branch, create branch tracking remote master, delete the other branch
17:41 NotFound Maybe is easier to clone again X-)
17:42 mikehh when I did a git pull it says - Falling back to patching base and 3-way merge..., No changes -- Patch already applied.
17:43 NotFound Looks like it fixed himself
17:43 mikehh anyway I shall probably just clone again, just in case
17:43 moritz you can always do a  git reset --hard origin/master
17:46 whiteknight fbrito: there is a comment in the source of src/pmc/complex.pmc that says all those inverse hyperbolics produce incorrect results
17:47 whiteknight fbrito: as part of your work, can you link to your new ticket from that source file so people can keep track?
17:51 cotto_work whiteknight: in general it's fine to use anything I post online as you see fit.  I posted the Lorito braindump notes so that the process wouldn't be stuck between then and when I had time to do a proper writeup.
17:52 plobsing the internals of complex.pmc are just nasty. why are we re-implementing (using PCC methods) things most libm implementations provide optimized versions of?
17:52 Coke "why do we even have a complex PMC?"
17:53 plobsing yeah. everyone knows we should use Quaternion PMCs in stead.
17:53 cotto_work Coke: +1
18:03 plobsing +1 to deprecate + remove. if anyone cares about complex, they will implement it and stand a better chance of doing it right (because they actually care)
18:04 PerlJam Coke: complex numbers are a common requirement of most language run time environments, therefore, if we are to be successful as a language platform, we *must* have it     ;-)
18:04 Coke PerlJam: is rakudo using parrot's Complex PMC?
18:04 PerlJam plobsing: +1
18:05 PerlJam Coke: no idea.
18:05 atrodo cotto_work> Any ideas on the extended version of the braindump?
18:05 cotto_work atrodo: I'll have time to do it tonight
18:06 atrodo Exciting!
18:06 PerlJam Coke: looks like "no"
18:07 cotto_work atrodo: do you have a blog?
18:08 atrodo cotto_work> I should.  I have a site, but no content
18:08 cotto_work Go blog then!
18:08 atrodo tempting...
18:10 atrodo Oh, right.  I stopped working on the blog because I couldn't get the logo working like i wanted...
18:10 atrodo (lame)
18:13 Coke atrodo: here you go: http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1C1CHMP_en-​USUS299US303&amp;q=random%20blog%20logo&amp;​um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;source=og&amp;sa=N&amp​;hl=en&amp;tab=wi&amp;biw=1280&amp;bih=879
18:14 atrodo :D  Actually, I have a logo, which was the disapoointing part.  I'm too married to the one I made
18:14 * Coke humbly suggests to blog anyway with the logo you have, and fix it up later if it bugs you.
18:16 atrodo That's what I'm about to do
18:17 cotto_work atrodo++
18:17 cotto_work anyone seen bacek recently?
18:18 Coke atrod++
18:18 Coke cotto_work: I tweeted him about aloha.
18:18 cotto_work Coke: thanks
18:18 Coke someone else can try email. ;)
18:18 dalek TT #1892 created by plobsing++: [DEPRECATED] Complex PMC
18:18 dalek TT #1892: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1892
18:18 dalek parrot: aaf01d1 | plobsing++ | DEPRECATED.pod:
18:18 dalek parrot: add Complex PMC deprecation
18:18 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/aaf01d1530
18:18 dalek parrot: c3f2c98 | plobsing++ | runtime/parrot/library/Test/More.pir:
18:18 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:parrot/parrot
18:18 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/c3f2c98785
18:21 cotto_work whiteknight: as I think more about self-hosted languages, it's starting to make sense to me that we shift our focus from interoperable languages built with npq-rx to interoperable, mostly self-hosted language implementations sharing a common bytecode and MOP..
18:22 NotFound Just "language implementations sharing a common bytecode and MOP" isn't enough?
18:22 plobsing \o/ parrot as more than just a VM to run nqp-rx
18:23 dalek parrot/embed_api2: 9f2ff29 | Coke++ | / (2 files):
18:23 dalek parrot/embed_api2: Add missing include to "pbc_dump"
18:23 dalek parrot/embed_api2: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/9f2ff2909d
18:23 cotto_work NotFound: for me there's no point to Parrot if they're not interoperable.
18:23 NotFound cotto_work: I mean, we shouldn't care about how the compilers are implemented.
18:24 * Coke cringes at the possibility of having to rewrite tcl YA.
18:24 cotto_work Coke: there's no reason you couldn't continue to use nqp-rx.  I just don't want it to be the only viable option.
18:24 cotto_work and if Rakudo's using it, it's not going anywhere.
18:25 Coke cotto_work: Be nice to have one /complete/, viable option first, but ok.
18:25 NotFound In fact, I didn't care, I wrote winxed the way I liked without following any recomendation.
18:25 muixirt joined #parrot
18:25 Coke NotFound++
18:26 plobsing winxed or Ωη;)XD (when finished) are viable alternatives to nqp-rx
18:27 cotto_work "Ωη;)XD"?
18:27 Coke Hey, before putting stuff in deprecated, can we get some kind of vote or something?
18:27 whiteknight PLA relies on the Complex PMC, but there's no reason why I couldn't either merge Complex into that project, or create a new project for it and use that as a dependency
18:27 NotFound That's not entirely true, I followed recommendations for language designers from Stroustrup's book "The Design And Evolution Of C++"
18:27 atrodo And draak.  Possibly
18:27 whiteknight that ticket should probably be marked RFC first. Build consensus, then deprecate
18:27 whiteknight we can vote on it today at #ps
18:27 cotto_work Coke and whiteknight, yes
18:27 plobsing cotto_work: ohm-eta-wink-kzd is my port of OMeta to winxed
18:28 NotFound plobsing: there is some prize for the project with the most bizarre name?
18:28 plobsing whiteknight: whats the point of an RFC to deprecate ticket on top of a deprecation ticket? all tickets inherently carry the option to reject.
18:29 whiteknight plobsing: because "deprecation" tickets have traditionally been used to track an approved deprecation. Using it for something else will cause confusion at least
18:29 plobsing NotFound: OMeta/Winxed sounded too boring, it's 2010, and I'd like to see what breaks
18:30 plobsing github, for example, rejected the name (probably in an attempt to avoid SQL-injection)
18:30 * NotFound resist to link little Bobbie Tables again
18:31 cotto_work NotFound: be strong
18:31 NotFound <strong>
18:31 plobsing it's 2010. if you aren't using parameterized queries, you're doing it WRONG
18:32 atrodo http://xkcd.com/327/
18:32 NotFound </strong>
18:32 * atrodo not so strong
18:32 whiteknight Coke++
18:34 plobsing whiteknight: I've always interpreted a deprecation ticket as an "option to remove". Nothing says that we need to exercise that option, nothing says we cannot relinquish that option.
18:34 mtk left #parrot
18:35 cotto_work That uncertainty isn't necessarily a good thing.
18:35 plobsing it is inherent in volunteer based projects
18:36 plobsing the alternatives is to apply the same criteria as our roadmap. that boarders on micro management.
18:37 Coke I don't think we need a rigorous process, but not everyone follows the ticket list. bringing it up in #ps is fine.
18:37 NotFound Uncertainity principle in open projects: if you know that it moves, you don't know its direction.
18:37 Coke should git ignore *.gcno, *.gcda, and *.gcov ?
18:38 Coke (#ps) even ex-post-facto.
18:39 cotto_work Coke: yes.  Those are artifacts from make cover.
18:40 Coke k. they are unignored ATM.
18:40 Coke (at least in embed_api2)
18:41 mtk joined #parrot
18:42 ligne left #parrot
18:44 NotFound plobsing: what's the github project name?
18:45 NotFound Found: https://github.com/plobsing/ohm-eta-wink-kzd
18:46 plobsing not much to see yet. most of the action is taking place under src/bootstrap
18:46 plobsing the plan is to bootstrap from OMeta/JS using node.js
18:47 plobsing both js and winxed versions of the bootstrap compilers come from the same source (with cpp bridging the slight differences between the languages)
18:48 NotFound Amazing
18:49 plobsing the end result will be an overlay of OMeta grammars in winxed
18:49 plobsing https://github.com/plobsing/ohm-eta-wink-k​zd/blob/master/t/tutorial.%E2%84%A6%CE%B7 is what I'm aiming for
18:52 whiteknight plobsing: that will be pretty awesome methinks
18:54 plobsing that's the dream. for now I'm happy stage 0 compiles null toplevels fine.
18:56 plobsing atrodo: do you have any draak samples?
18:57 atrodo https://github.com/atrodo/dr​aak/blob/master/gmr/pl0.gmr
18:57 atrodo Sadly, I was working on getting code generation to work when I switched over to working on Lorito
18:57 atrodo s/to work/started/
19:00 plobsing atrodo: what parsing algo is it based on? LR? rec-descent?
19:01 atrodo LL, recursive descent
19:03 atrodo It was simpler to write and maintain, and since I parse the grammar file everytime, i suspect going to LALR would result in a speed loss.
19:04 plobsing why do you parse the grammar file every time? seems like that's your problem.
19:06 atrodo Because that was the goal.  Have one file that describes the grammar and code generation that is used as the source of compilation.
19:07 plobsing so you're writing a compiler interpreter in stead of a compiler compiler?
19:07 atrodo More or less, yes
19:09 plobsing cool
19:10 hercynium joined #parrot
19:13 NotFound Sounds a bit like a Knuth Parse Machine.
19:25 rfw joined #parrot
19:32 Coke t/manifest/02-regenerate_file.t also fails on embed_api2
19:33 Coke ah, and rightly so.
19:33 whiteknight ?
19:38 ok22 left #parrot
19:38 ok22 joined #parrot
19:42 fbrito left #parrot
19:48 whiteknight I think we could definitely have embed_api2 mergable shortly after 2.11
19:48 whiteknight and I look forward to that
19:49 whiteknight because shortly thereafter I want to open deprecations for several things
19:49 whiteknight and I want to rearrange/clean a lot of code
19:56 chromatic joined #parrot
20:01 Coke (rightly so) because you added files but didn't regen the manifest.
20:02 whiteknight ah, okay
20:03 cotto_work #ps in 28
20:11 atrodo NotFound> Do you have a linky for "Knuth Parse Machine"?
20:17 tcurtis joined #parrot
20:18 NotFound atrodo: no, only a 1988 Spanish book. I think it's from a paper about LR parsers.
20:26 NotFound It may be "Top down syntax analysis" but I'm not sure, the book has lot of erratas in the biblio references,
20:26 sorear NotFound: ISTR reading something about a Parrot LALR engine which emitted PIR.  Do *you* know what I'm thinking of?
20:26 fbrito joined #parrot
20:27 chromatic Was that the one Allison wrote for Pynie?
20:28 NotFound sorear: looks it's a common subject these days.
20:31 plobsing chromatic: didn't know allison wrote a LALR engine for parrot. I know she wrote spix, a PEG engine.
20:32 chromatic I can't keep track of anything but the difference between LL and LR anyhow.
20:33 fperrad seen kapace
20:33 cotto_work fperrad: no bot
20:34 plobsing chromatic: PEG is just a pretty syntax over recursive descent (possibly with some smarts, eg: about cacheing)
20:35 chromatic Somehow I'd never realized it was rec descent, but I also hate parsing.
20:36 fperrad seen kapace_
20:37 atrodo fperrad> EALOHASTILLMIA
20:37 fperrad ping kapace_
20:39 sorear EBACEKSTILLMIA
20:43 Coke NotFound: want privs to the google calendar?
20:44 chromatic What happened to the topic?
20:44 kid51 joined #parrot
20:44 sorear It's still there
20:45 Coke 15:45 -!- No topic set for #parrot
20:45 sorear my IRC server begs to differ.
20:45 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.10.1 Released | http://parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Onward and upward with Google Code-In | Please test rakudo with bleeding edge parrot!
20:45 sorear I guess some subset of servers lost the topic
20:46 sorear #perl just had the same problem
20:46 NotFound Coke: I've never used it other than looking at already made calendars.
20:47 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 2.10.1 Released | http://parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Onward and upward with Google Code-In | Please test rakudo with bleeding edge parrot! | Remove deprecations | close tickets | merge html_cleanup and embed_api2
20:51 cotto_work dukeleto: ping
20:52 atrodo hmmm, it appears that I've actually got two blog posts here.
20:53 allison joined #parrot
20:57 kid51 whiteknight: embed_api2 PASS make testr on 2 different linux boxes; will try darwin at $home tonight
20:58 whiteknight kid51++ Thanks!
20:58 whiteknight now I need codestd fixes, documentation, and lots of testing
21:01 lucian left #parrot
21:03 haypo joined #parrot
21:04 fbrito tadzik: I need your feedback on the GCI task that you are mentoring: http://www.google-melange.com/gci/task/show/goog​le/gci2010/parrot_perl_foundations/t129193205977
21:04 fbrito tadzik: when you have some time, please take a look
21:05 Coke http://twitter.com/#!/bace​k/status/14787890802335745 - how to grab aloha.
21:06 whiteknight yes, we need aloha back
21:07 bluescreen_ left #parrot
21:07 cotto_work That second to last tweet from bacek doesn't look good.
21:08 atrodo no, not really
21:08 lucian joined #parrot
21:16 whiteknight I think what we need to do is take some pressure off bacek, so he can focus on other things if he needs to
21:16 whiteknight we need to get Aloha going ourselves, and we need to kick the GC into high gear again
21:17 cotto_work feather seems like it would be a good place to host aloha
21:17 whiteknight I wonder what we would need to do for OSU to hook us up with another VM for tools like that?
21:17 Coke parrotvm is also an option.
21:17 Coke we have a vm. just use that one.
21:19 rfw left #parrot
21:19 sorear why does parrotvm exist?
21:19 sorear I talked with Juerd earlier, feather is very explicitly for Parrot too
21:20 rfw joined #parrot
21:20 whiteknight we can use feather too
21:20 whiteknight Parrot relies on many tools and wants more. I would like to explore ways to expand our capacity
21:21 NotFound Idea for GSoC: create an irc bot engine for parrot.
21:21 whiteknight Notfound: yes, that is a good idea
21:22 whiteknight an event-based IO engine is better, and an IRC library on top of that
21:22 NotFound Yeah
21:22 Coke parrotvm exists for the same reason parrot.org exists.
21:22 NotFound Coke: For fun?
21:22 Coke (as oppposed to the perl.org hosted parrotcode.org)
21:23 Coke because someone thought it was a good idea for parrot to not be hosted on perl.org and related services.
21:23 whiteknight it is a good idea
21:23 whiteknight and OSU has been a wonderful host
21:25 fbrito left #parrot
21:26 Coke I question the cost-benefit, but it's sunk.
21:28 whiteknight left #parrot
21:29 cotto_work Where's dukeleto been?
21:29 rurban_ joined #parrot
21:30 chromatic Vacation.
21:30 cotto_work Ah.  Good for him.
21:32 rurban left #parrot
21:32 rurban_ is now known as rurban
21:32 kid51 left #parrot
21:38 atrodo is aloha's data available?
21:38 mikehh forgot to report - All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#1621) fulltest) at 8d73990 - Kubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
21:39 mikehh presumably on bacek's server (in postgres I think)
21:40 mikehh we shoul;d also update the karma from moritz's logs
21:41 mikehh bah again, this new keyboard keeps moving keys slightly from what I is used to :-}
21:48 moritz mikehh: I already have a script that extracts karma from the logs; if you remind me tomorrow I can run it and mail you the results
21:50 mtk left #parrot
21:51 tcurtis left #parrot
21:54 cotto_work moritz: great
21:56 cotto_work moritz: you could just nopaste the data or stick them into a gist
22:01 NotFound My experiments with JS-alike prototype based method look up gave a dead-end. How and when to invalidate method cache?
22:03 NotFound Silly idea: add a flag to Class to don't cache method lookup.
22:03 chromatic Keep pointers to children (ugh) or re-use GC mark information to implement some sort of invalidation flow or use a global counter of potential invalidations and invalidate all caches when their numbers do not match that generation.
22:03 chromatic Try to guess which one Perl 5 uses!
22:03 NotFound The (ugh) one?
22:03 atrodo None of the above?  Pure magic?
22:04 chromatic The global variable.
22:05 sorear Javascript needs to maybe invalidate method caches every time you poke a value into an object
22:05 NotFound sorear: yes, that's even worse than the prototype problem.
22:06 NotFound And even if you don't poke it. Just if at least two objects have different versions of one method.
22:08 cotto_work chromatic: is there any reason not to make Lorito bytecode immutable?
22:08 NotFound Overly expensive solution that may work without touching parrot: for each instance generate its own class.
22:09 chromatic Immutable seems right.
22:10 NotFound I think I've heard some JS engine uses a less simplistic and optimized version of that.
22:11 cotto_work then that sounds like it'd fit into the interp rather than the context
22:11 NotFound But for a short experiment is too much.
22:11 Coke (global counter of potential invalidations) so does tcl.
22:13 cotto_work well, bytecode segments.  I'd think that we'll want to be able to load (and possibly unload) bytecode segments, though not modify them
22:14 sorear supporting self-modifying code is insane.  +1 to not doing it
22:15 sorear anyone who wants to create code at runtime should announce their intenion, with a "create new bytecode segment" call (you might spell it flush_icache)
22:16 NotFound So I must discard my old idea of an INTERCAL compiler that implements ABSTAIN by self-modifying code ;)
22:16 cotto_work What are the issues with allowing bytecode segments to be unloaded at runtime, given that we can easily figure out where all contexts' PCs are pointing?
22:17 NotFound If we don't allow discarding segments we'll never solve memory leaks in 'eval'
22:18 sorear IMO we shouldn't provide "discard segment" as an op
22:18 sorear Segments should just be ordinary GCable objects
22:18 NotFound Aye
22:18 sorear If all the subs that point to a segment are dead, and no contexts are referencing it - bye!
22:24 haypo left #parrot
22:24 plobsing if we make a segment a PMC, swapping one in place of another is simply a become: call.
22:25 plobsing you would of course, need subs to cooperate with you or things would fail pretty fast
22:32 NotFound Did we have some usage for anonymous classes? Every time I try to use one, I get some NULL PMC access.
22:45 atrodo cotto_work> Just in time to leave for the day: http://creative.atrodo.org/2010​/12/my-little-lorito-world.html
23:00 cotto_work atrodo: I look forward to reading it!
23:02 dmalcolm left #parrot
23:08 cotto_work atrodo: thanks for the post.  I'm only at the first point and I already see something I wasn't clear about communicating.
23:13 chromatic Yeah, me too.
23:13 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#1663) fulltest) at c3f2c98 - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
23:14 chromatic Also the "tight coupling of the MOP"
23:14 chromatic But then again, I looked at dukeleto's prototype ops and said "Why do we have call as an M0 op?"
23:22 whiteknight joined #parrot
23:23 lucian left #parrot
23:23 smash left #parrot
23:29 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
23:30 cotto_work hio whiteknight
23:30 whiteknight hey cotto_work
23:30 cotto_work whiteknight: http://creative.atrodo.org/2010​/12/my-little-lorito-world.html
23:31 whiteknight atrodo++
23:31 cotto_work atrodo++ indeed
23:31 cotto_work atrodo: ping
23:39 allison left #parrot
23:50 kid51 joined #parrot
23:52 lucian joined #parrot
23:53 kid51 atrodo:  Can we have your blog posts picked up by planet.parrotcode.org?
23:53 hercynium left #parrot
23:57 Yuki`N joined #parrot
23:58 Yuki`N Time to tackle.
23:58 Yuki`N BigNum.
23:59 dukeleto Yuki`N++

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