Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-03-11

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:55 cotto ~~~
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02:19 dalek Rosella: b2c42a7 | Whiteknight++ | / (4 files):
02:19 dalek Rosella: remove call_parrot_method. it was from an earlier time
02:19 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/b2c42a7413
02:19 dalek Rosella: 4bd87d0 | Whiteknight++ | src/core/Rosella.winxed:
02:19 dalek Rosella: use 'can' in find_named_method instead of find_method inside a try/catch. At the very least this is cleaner, if not faster
02:19 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/4bd87d0d3c
02:19 dalek Rosella: a7c3645 | Whiteknight++ | src/ (8 files):
02:19 dalek Rosella: some cleanups and docs for the action library
02:19 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/a7c3645b34
02:19 dalek Rosella: 26b579c | Whiteknight++ | src/container/ (6 files):
02:19 dalek Rosella: small fixes/cleanups to the container files
02:19 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/26b579cb61
02:19 dalek Rosella: 3cb1ae5 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
02:19 dalek Rosella: properly namespace EventManager-> Event.Manager
02:19 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/3cb1ae5ab8
02:19 atrodo NotFound: ping
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02:29 sorear kid51: Have you seen PIRATE?  It can emit .pbc files without going though Parrot's command line.  Is it unsufficiently reliable?
02:29 cotto sorear, it's incomplete atm and slow.
02:39 Andy OK, now ready for another andy++
02:39 Andy See line 3519 of src/debug.c
02:39 kid51 Ah, yes, I remember it well.
02:40 Andy No, seriously, go look at it.
02:41 kid51 Yes ...
02:41 Andy That should be *string
02:41 PerlJam you added a * ?
02:41 Andy Hooray for splint!
02:41 Andy I haven't yet.
02:41 PerlJam andy++  there you go  :)
02:41 Andy But splint catches stuff GCC didn't.
02:43 Andy A teeny bug, but it gives me a little validation for the time I put into the splint stuff.
02:49 dalek parrot: 45c6657 | mikehh++ | src/gc/alloc_memory.c:
02:49 dalek parrot: fix codetest failure - add ASSERT_ARGS
02:49 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/45c6657d46
02:49 dalek parrot: 0afcb30 | mikehh++ | src/hash.c:
02:49 dalek parrot: fix codetest failure - line length
02:49 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/0afcb305b7
02:59 dalek parrot: 089e7cb | petdance++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
03:00 dalek parrot: more splint updates
03:00 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/089e7cb8e1
03:00 dalek parrot: 514a578 | petdance++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
03:00 dalek parrot: fix up size_t argument in failed_allocation
03:00 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/514a57814f
03:04 atrodo NotFound: unping
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03:49 dalek parrot: f8e6788 | petdance++ | / (2 files):
03:49 dalek parrot: two functions actually can return NULL
03:49 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f8e67885a3
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04:08 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#11988) fulltest) at 3_1_0-780-g514a578 - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5)
04:28 dalek parrot: a8d50a5 | petdance++ | / (2 files):
04:28 dalek parrot: annotated Parrot_compile_string
04:28 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a8d50a5689
04:28 dalek parrot: f31d6e9 | petdance++ | / (3 files):
04:28 dalek parrot: fix a decorator.  Assign NULLs to pointers, not zeroes.
04:28 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f31d6e91dc
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05:34 dalek parrot: 34dda14 | petdance++ | / (9 files):
05:34 dalek parrot: Annotating all the GC function pointers. Now to make the functions match the typedefs.
05:34 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/34dda147b3
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06:52 bacek ~~
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07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 21594e1 | petdance++ | / (2 files):
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Parrot_hash_put can return NULL
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/21594e1cb7
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: ddf8ae8 | bacek++ | NEWS:
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Update NEWS for opsc_full_parse branch merge.
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/ddf8ae8486
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 7d79837 | petdance++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: ratcheting down some splint warnings
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/7d79837a37
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 492de04 | bacek++ | t/pmc/capture.t:
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Add todoed tests for Capture.freeze/thaw.
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/492de047d1
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: cdecdf8 | bacek++ | / (2 files):
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Implement Capture.freeze/thaw. Closes #2047
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/cdecdf89ca
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: afa7674 | bacek++ | src/pmc/capture.pmc:
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Set custom_mark flag in Capture.thaw when needed.
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/afa767490c
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: e24da1f | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/ (4 files):
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Add few utility methods for workaround of P6object freeze/thaw bug
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e24da1f9db
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 763edbf | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/Compiler/Actions.pm:
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Deep clone of Ops variant.
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm:
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: It will be used for generating of dump files with parsed Ops.
07:52 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/763edbfa93
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: d871b26 | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/File.pm:
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Force boolify "experimental" flag.
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/d871b2613b
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: fa88183 | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/Util.pm:
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Clone scalars in process_recursive.
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/fa88183d2f
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 1315017 | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/Op.pm:
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Simplify Op.arg_type
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/1315017b4b
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 82978da | bacek++ | t/compilers/opsc/03-past.t:
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Rewrite test using "is" instead of "ok".
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/82978da969
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 01a98eb | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/Util.pm:
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Skip undefined elements in process_recursive. Fix last broken test in t/compiler/opsc
07:53 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/01a98eb1f5
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10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 36e4a6f | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/Util.pm:
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Fix stupid bug with process_recursive.
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/36e4a6fbdc
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: e020e81 | bacek++ | src/pmc/class.pmc:
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Add another workaround for thawed Class/Namespaces
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e020e8144a
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: 9810967 | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/File.pm:
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Made :core optional. Otherwise we can thaw Ops::File.
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/981096776d
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: cb5a75d | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/Util.pm:
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Few minor bugfixes.
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/cb5a75d0c3
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: ca64257 | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/ops2c.nqp:
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Implement dumping of parsed ops
10:14 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/ca642573e2
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10:33 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: e51f9d6 | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/Op.pm:
10:33 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: Revert "Simplify Op.arg_type". It was really bad idea.
10:33 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm:
10:33 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: This reverts commit 1315017b4be28f7425941ce3858710072a5b43eb.
10:33 dalek parrot/opsc_llvm: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e51f9d68bd
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13:49 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
13:50 tadzik good morning zebras
13:51 rurban Has duke submitted tpf to gsoc 2011? today is deadline?
13:54 whiteknight I think they said he had on the mailing list
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14:12 whiteknight blah. In updating my branch from master I get a conflict in core_thunks.c but not in core_thunks.nci
14:32 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 266 commits to parrot/whiteknight/imcc_compreg_pmc by Whiteknight
14:33 whiteknight msg plobsing I updated whiteknight/imcc_compreg_pmc from master. There were some nci-related conflicts as expected. The build fails running parrot_nci_thunk_gen. Can you help take a look at it? Thanks
14:33 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
14:34 ttbot Parrot b12bcf3e i386-linux-thread-multi make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/54478
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14:39 ttbot Parrot 91c2194a MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/54498
14:39 ttbot Parrot b12bcf3e MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/54499
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14:51 ttbot Parrot 91c2194a darwin-thread-multi-2level make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/54533
14:53 ttbot Parrot b12bcf3e MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/54536
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15:09 Tene fwiw, getting HLL interop into a good state again would be a great GSOC task.
15:10 whiteknight Tene: that might make a good project. Do you have anything like a tasklist or checklist that would need to be completed?
15:10 whiteknight or, at the very least, do you have a list of blockers?
15:11 Tene whiteknight: not currently, but I could put one together sometime after I sleep.
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15:11 Tene There aren't any real blockers.
15:11 whiteknight Tene: If you could put together some kind of tasklist for that, it would be a huge help
15:11 Tene HLL smoke testing has been kind of a blocker for me personally, but I don't expect that to generalize.
15:12 whiteknight yeah, our smolder server has been less than optimal lately
15:13 Tene http://new.leto.net:3000/project/parrot is supposed to handle HLL testing eventually, but doeosn't currently afaict.
15:14 whiteknight we can add other projects to smolder too. We've added things like Rakudo, PL/Parrot, and PLA to it already
15:18 jnthn_ Oh, Rakudo is already added to smolder?
15:18 * jnthn_ didn't know that :)
15:19 jnthn_ oh... http://new.leto.net:3000/project/rakudo
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15:19 jnthn_ Clearly somebody needs to start smoldering. :)
15:21 Tene The high-level tasklist is approximately: look at the previous HLL interop API (should be in a PDD, and should be able to find previous impls in a few HLLs), evaluate current level of implementation, make sure the 'parrot' language (or pir or whatever) is set up correctly and load_language-able (there's at least one current issue with some part of PCT registering something else in its place), get reasonable PCT support for the HLL interop ...
15:21 Tene ... API, and write patches for N HLLs.
15:21 Tene So, a bit less work than the previous N times I've done it.
15:22 Tene Also, add tests to parrot for it, and get something in leto's smoker that tests interop between multiple HLLs.
15:23 Tene I've been reassurred by a few people that if an HLL interop API gets established again, it's more-likely to stick this time.
15:24 Tene The last time I did this, it was something like a couple of weeks of work, maybe?
15:24 Tene I don't remember too clearly.
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15:25 Coke lack of partcl testing by not-me has been a blocker for me, ;)
15:26 Tene I haven't paid much attention to GSOC; does that actually look like an appropriate task?
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15:27 whiteknight Tene: maybe, probably not. GSoC needs to be a task a student can devote to for 2-3 months
15:27 whiteknight HLL interop could probably be a portion of a larger task
15:30 Tene Ah.
15:30 Tene Maybe someone else can come up with work that can build on this.
15:30 Tene I need to get around to documenting it anyway.
15:30 whiteknight yes, I will definitely keep it in mind
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16:01 whiteknight I'm overhauling the GSOC2011 page right now, so don't edit it
16:02 atrodo Did the marketing team ever take off like the other temas have?
16:06 whiteknight no
16:09 dalek tracwiki: v9 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:09 dalek tracwiki: Remove ideas which are no-go (documentation-only, etc) Reformat page to use a new template for project ideas
16:09 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=9&action=diff
16:09 dalek tracwiki: v10 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:09 dalek tracwiki: cleanup and +a few new ideas
16:09 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=10&action=diff
16:10 atrodo I wonder if anything marketing-like (like a fun website or the like) would be a usable GSoC idea
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16:25 dalek tracwiki: v11 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:25 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=11&action=diff
16:25 dalek tracwiki: v12 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:25 dalek tracwiki: new introduction
16:25 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=12&action=diff
16:25 dalek tracwiki: v13 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:25 dalek tracwiki: +some emphasis
16:25 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=13&action=diff
16:25 dalek tracwiki: v14 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:25 dalek tracwiki: emphasize all fields in all templates. Why doesn't trac wiki allow template transclusion? That would be quite the handy feature right about now.
16:25 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=14&action=diff
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16:45 Tene whiteknight: Make sure to remember to mention in the channel when it's safe to edit again.
16:46 whiteknight it's more or less safe to edit again
16:46 whiteknight although I'm still making frequent edits
16:47 cotto_work ☃☃
16:48 whiteknight lolwat?
16:49 Tene whiteknight: I don't know how to calibrate my difficulty scale for x/5 for project difficulty.  Please advise.
16:50 whiteknight Tene: just best guess. The difficulty field is just a rough estimate
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16:56 dalek tracwiki: v15 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:56 dalek tracwiki: +details about a few projects
16:56 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=15&action=diff
16:56 dalek tracwiki: v16 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:56 dalek tracwiki: +more info about projects
16:56 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=16&action=diff
16:56 dalek tracwiki: v17 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
16:56 dalek tracwiki: +ANTLR backend
16:56 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=17&action=diff
16:59 * whiteknight needs food, then will dump more ideas
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17:03 Tene I expect I could dump more ideas if I remember to think about it after I wake up.
17:03 Tene Going to bed now.  Open invitation for anyone to harass me about gsoc proposals later today.
17:04 Tene aloha: tell Tene to post gsoc proposals.
17:09 whiteknight Tene++
17:09 whiteknight don't worry, we'll remind you
17:12 dalek tracwiki: v18 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
17:12 dalek tracwiki: +LAPACK bindings for PLA
17:12 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=18&action=diff
17:12 dalek tracwiki: v19 | tene++ | GSoc2011
17:12 dalek tracwiki: Add minor notes about hll interop task.
17:12 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=19&action=diff
17:14 Coke possible ideas: "resurrect mod_parrot"
17:14 Coke (for GSOC)
17:14 Coke seen jhorwitz?\
17:14 clunker3 Sorry, Coke, I haven't seen jhorwitz?\.
17:14 aloha Sorry, I haven't seen jhorwitz?\.
17:14 Coke seen jhorwitz
17:14 clunker3 jhorwitz was last seen on #parrot 2 years, 6 months, 14 days, 51 minutes and 1 second ago, saying: and probably not the last...
17:14 aloha Sorry, I haven't seen jhorwitz.
17:14 Coke clunker3, owner?
17:15 clunker3 was kicked by cotto_work: clunker3
17:15 Coke GSOC idea: get partcl-nqp to the point where it passes spec tests.
17:16 Coke GSOC idea: improve profiling tools.
17:17 Coke GSOC idea: speed up rakudo benchmark by x%. (or any HLL, really. "get within only 100X slower than native version)
17:17 whiteknight Coke: did you see my most recent email to parrot-dev? Google far prefers projects which produce something new. Not projects which simply fix or vaguely improve something which already exists
17:17 whiteknight so "fix partcl" is not an acceptable GSoC task
17:18 whiteknight but "implement Tk bindings for partcl" would be
17:18 whiteknight actually, that's a pretty damn good idea
17:19 whiteknight I have one task in there to add new sub-level profiling tools
17:20 whiteknight if we can find a specific enabling technology that the student can implement to bring performance gains, that would be a good project
17:27 Coke whiteknight: I didn't say "fix partcl". sheesh.
17:28 whiteknight "resurrect mod_parrot" and "get partcl-nqp to the point where..." are both along those lines
17:31 Coke They are both easily updatable to have achievable, delineated goals. Which is why I dumped them here in as an idea. If I had fleshed them out, I'd have bothere dto put them on the web site.
17:31 Coke I dispute that "mod_parrot" exists, btw.
17:35 Coke So, anyone have any bright ideas on TT #1886?
17:37 Coke I have zero interest in Tk bindings for partcl, btw. Happy to mentor someone if they want to do that, but at the moment, the state of the parrot it's sitting on needs a lot more attention than an external library.
17:38 plobsing attention as in "Tk bindings for Parrot" or more along the lines of "fix the damned thing"?
17:41 Coke speed, memory usage of core parrot is too slow, too bloated. can't even run /tcl/, let's get that working before we worry about Tk.
17:42 Coke (just running tcl's "tcltest.tcl" (and not running any tests) is currently about 300x slower than tclsh on my OS X box.)
17:42 whiteknight creating a new apache plugin for Parrot to replace the old, dead mod_parrot would be a good idea
17:42 plobsing how about a FastCGI interface?
17:43 Coke (with partcl old. partcl-nqp chokes on that file still.)
17:43 whiteknight I'll write up an idea for an "Apache plugin". However the student wants to implement that is fine
17:43 Coke whiteknight: funny, I thought you just shot that down.
17:43 whiteknight mod_parrot, or FastCGI, or whatever is all fun
17:43 whiteknight what did I just shoot down?
17:43 dalek tracwiki: v20 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
17:43 dalek tracwiki: +more details from a few projects. +idea for a code metrics toolset
17:43 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=20&action=diff
17:43 dalek tracwiki: v21 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
17:43 dalek tracwiki: volunteer to mentor several ideas. +details about profiler
17:43 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=21&action=diff
17:43 whiteknight fixing mod_parrot is one thing. Writing a new apache plugin is different
17:43 plobsing Coke: there's a difference "fix up old and busted" vs "shoot old and busted behind the shed and reimplement"
17:45 Coke plobsing: my point was that whiteknight shot down my specific one liner description of that very project. I know there's a difference.
17:45 whiteknight Coke: I apologize for shooting it down. What I understood from your one-liner above was inappropriate for a project
17:45 whiteknight I have more information about it now, and can see that it has merit
17:46 Coke <shrug> You and I clearly have some kind of communication gap. This isn't the first time. ;)
17:55 plobsing arg. who knew MULTIs could be used to sorta kinda do multi-dispatch for VTABLEs?
17:55 whiteknight can they?
17:55 plobsing not well
17:55 whiteknight I'm not sure if that's bad or good
17:56 whiteknight oh, you mean a MULTI declaration in a .pmc file?
17:56 plobsing yep. For example, complex has a bunch of MULTIs with the same name as vtables (add, i_add, etc)...
17:57 whiteknight right, okay
17:57 whiteknight yes, those things are stupid and hideously inefficient
17:57 whiteknight at one point I think they were either deprecated or strongly suggested to be removed
17:57 whiteknight PLA still uses a few of them, but I've been meaning to have them removed
17:57 plobsing what 'MULTI' in .pmc s? or multis standing in for vtables?
17:58 whiteknight ...does not parse
17:58 plobsing what exactly are you saying is 'stupid and hideously inefficient'?
17:58 whiteknight MULTIs in .pmc files
17:58 whiteknight regular MultiSubs are not so bad
17:59 dalek tracwiki: v22 | whiteknight++ | GSoc2011
17:59 dalek tracwiki: two new projects. An apache plugin (replace mod_parrot) and a text templating engine
17:59 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=22&amp;action=diff
17:59 whiteknight Parrot used to have a lot more MULTI declarations for its core PMCs, but many of them were removed and replaced with switch/case statements
18:00 plobsing if you mean "dispatch based on type of one argument", don't use multi.
18:01 plobsing if you mean "find the most constrained method for all the types at once", then use multi.
18:01 plobsing I'm not sure we need to be providing sugar for that in pmc-lang.
18:01 whiteknight I'm certain we do not
18:02 whiteknight I'm also certain that we could remove 50% of our arithmetic vtables, the worst offenders with MULTI, and nobody would ever notice the difference
18:02 whiteknight but that's neither here nor there
18:04 plobsing whiteknight: I can't seem to find a deprecation for MULTI.
18:04 whiteknight I doubt it's a deprecation
18:05 Coke whiteknight: oh, I'd notice the difference. please don't change that again without a very good plan.
18:05 plobsing should we make it one?
18:05 whiteknight I'm not changing anything. Only musing
18:05 Coke I cannot tell you how many times partcl has broken because someone changed something related to multi vtables.
18:06 plobsing Coke: is it feasible to avoid using multi vtables?
18:06 plobsing I understand the sugar is sweet, but the mechanism is rotten.
18:08 lucian left #parrot
18:08 whiteknight plobsing: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/452
18:10 plobsing tl;dr, what is the thing that is being deprecated?
18:10 whiteknight MULTI
18:10 plobsing completely?
18:10 plobsing or "only when not needed"?
18:10 whiteknight the ticket is a little wishy-washy
18:10 plobsing which is a really loose and vague statement
18:11 whiteknight it is marked as a deprecation
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18:12 Coke whiteknight: if it's vague, it needs to be rejected. Just like with any other ticket that has no details.
18:12 whiteknight there are plenty of details. It just doesn't specifically say "remove all these things"
18:12 plobsing I'm with Coke on this. It is not a clear mandate to perform any particular action.
18:13 whiteknight Whatever, i'm not going to stop anybody from closing it
18:14 whiteknight I'm only pointing out that ticket as prior discussion of the issue of MULTIs, which seems to suggest we deprecate and remove them
18:15 Coke in any case, partcl only has one place where we're using multi on a vtable. as long as it doesn't break in whatever future cleanup happens, I'm fine with that.
18:15 whiteknight if it doesn't break by being reimplemented to something nicer, would that count?
18:18 ShaneC left #parrot
18:21 Coke I have 2 points of view here: don't screw up HLL developers by ripping out things just because. The other is: as long as partcl works, I don't care.
18:22 Coke so from the latter standpoint, sure, that's fine.
18:23 whiteknight we wouldn't be ripping it out just because. We're not nearly so frivolous
18:23 plobsing no honour among thieves or HLL developpers eh?
18:24 Coke whiteknight: it's hard to get that impression from reading your blog and listening to you on IRC.
18:24 whiteknight it's hard to convincingly say that we both want parrot to be faster, and we think it's perfectly fine for e.g. the Integer PMC to use full multidispatch semantics on every arithmetic operation
18:25 Coke I think it's hard to say that that's a bottleneck.
18:25 Coke but if it /is/ a bottleneck, by all means, let's consider it.
18:25 whiteknight there's a difference between a bottleneck and a component of a larger performance problem
18:26 whiteknight Parrot's performance issues are not just related to a small handful of distinct bottlenecks
18:26 whiteknight there are significant architectural issues at play, complexity problems throughout, etc
18:27 whiteknight And if fixing every little problem is going to be treated as a big imposition by our HLL developers, we're not going to get too far
18:27 preflex left #parrot
18:27 plobsing there's too much confounding code. code that prevents other code from being performant, or from being rewritten, etc...
18:28 whiteknight I don't really care about MULTI, it's not anywhere on my list of priorities. But that doesn't mean it can't be recognized as the bad code that it is
18:28 plobsing pmc2c is particularly bad when it comes to NCI. they shouldn't really be related at all. but whenever I go to change NCI, it's always some dumb thing pmc2c does that gets broken.
18:29 plobsing which is why I care about MULTI. it gets in the way of stuff it shouldn't even be touching.
18:30 dalek TT #452 closed by plobsing++: Don't use MULTI when not needed
18:30 dalek TT #452: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/452
18:31 * jnthn_ added a GSoC suggestion for Rakudo to http://epo.means.no/gsoc2011/ideas (mentioning it in case folks show up here looking for a Rakudo GSoC task)
18:32 Coke whiteknight: I'm not saying "don't make parrot better". I obviously want that. I just have to deal with a lot of stuff getting change, modified, ripping out, improved, broken, whatever. So when I see someone saying something is "bad code" without qualification, my hackles go up.
18:32 preflex joined #parrot
18:33 whiteknight jnthn: thanks! We'll be sure to pass that note along
18:33 whiteknight jnthn: If you have any project ideas which would be mutually beneficial to Parrot and Rakudo, we'll add them to our list too
18:34 plobsing and then, once I look under the covers at MULTI, I see that it generates incorrect code, but on uncommon code paths. I could file a ticket, but I doubt that would get fixed any time soon.
18:35 jnthn_ whiteknight: I think I saw somebody mention sub level profiling; if that could make use of HLL annotations too and then generate useful output when run with Rakudo programs, it could be a big help.
18:35 dukeleto ~~
18:35 jnthn_ I didn't try the profiler recently, maybe I should at some point soon to see what the latest state of it is. :)
18:35 whiteknight I'm a big proponent of being honest about the quality of our code. When I see bad code, I call it bad. That doesn't mean I have the time or the inclination to personally change or fix everything that ends up on the shit list
18:35 whiteknight just because it's bad doesn't mean it's going to change
18:36 whiteknight that's a little bit of honesty which is more than a little bit depressing to have to type
18:36 Coke yes, but "bad" tells me nothing. it doesn't help anyone fix whatever you might think is wrong with it.
18:36 whiteknight jnthn: yeah, I added the idea about the sub-level profiler. It's on my list of things pmichaud told me you guys wanted
18:36 jnthn_ whiteknight: Excellent.
18:36 Coke (don't we already have .sub level profiler??)
18:37 plobsing we have a line-level profiling runcore
18:37 whiteknight Coke: it does. It identifies it as something which is worthy of attention. Other developers may have radically different priorities than I have, and might want to look at bad code
18:37 Coke I thought cotto's stuff was sub level.
18:37 plobsing which can now make use of HLL annotations without any noticeable cost
18:37 Coke whiteknight: "Multi vtables are bad"... how is that helpful?
18:38 plobsing Coke: I provided at least 2 good backing reasons for that statement.
18:38 whiteknight Coke: because it tells a person looking for a task that it's a particular area worth looking at
18:38 Coke plobsing: yes, but I'm not arguing with /you/ ;)
18:38 whiteknight plus, if we have to fix a bug that touches code we know to be bad, maybe we make different decisions than if the code were sacrosanct
18:39 Coke Yes, but I don't know that it's bad. I know it smells funny to you. that's it.
18:39 whiteknight Maybe we put it on the deprecation chopping block if it's recognized as a big enough pain point. Maybe we refactor. Maybe we can do a lot of things. The first stage in all of that is recognizing there to be a problem
18:39 Coke yes, but you haven't said what the problem is.
18:39 ShaneC joined #parrot
18:39 whiteknight Coke: so what are you saying? That I haven't made my case compelling enough? or that I haven't compelled you personally?
18:40 Coke I can only speak to me personally, of course, but yah. "bad" is not compelling nor informative.
18:41 whiteknight plobsing took one look at it today and recognized it as being a bad mechanism. Hell, he's already found bugs in it. At the very least that's some kind of vindication
18:41 whiteknight but like I said, it's nowhere on my list of priorities. I'm not going to analyze it or write huge blog posts about it, because it's not worth my time
18:45 * cotto_work really wishes he didn't have a fire to put out
18:54 dodathome joined #parrot
18:55 dalek Rosella: 7d1cb71 | Whiteknight++ | README.md:
18:55 dalek Rosella: Some small fixes. Separate libraries which I consider "stable" from those which are still more experimental.
18:55 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/7d1cb7138d
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20:04 plobsing joined #parrot
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20:37 dukeleto davidfetter: severely delayed pong
20:38 ambs left #parrot
20:39 dalek Rosella: 139f2e3 | Whiteknight++ | s (3 files):
20:39 dalek Rosella: add in a new decorator library. A decorator is a transparent pass-through proxy which holds extra hashes of extension methods and attributes.
20:39 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/139f2e3977
20:39 dalek Rosella: 4d01976 | Whiteknight++ | src/decorate/ (2 files):
20:39 dalek Rosella: add in some code, more of a novelty at this point, to implement an immutability proxy. it only works for direct attribute accesses on the proxy, not attribute accesses inside methods on the target
20:39 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/4d01976ed5
20:39 dalek Rosella: bdbef2b | Whiteknight++ | src/decorate/Builder.winxed:
20:39 dalek Rosella: fix find_method to invoke the method on the proxy, not the target. This extends immutability all the way through to methods on the underlying class
20:39 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/bdbef2b673
20:39 dalek Rosella: 9c5b872 | Whiteknight++ | README.md:
20:39 dalek Rosella: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:Whiteknight/Rosella
20:39 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/9c5b8721be
20:39 dalek Rosella: a805977 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
20:39 dalek Rosella: add an entry in README. Add a TODO note in the immutability section
20:39 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/a80597704d
20:41 whiteknight I wasn't sure if anything like cheap decorators or immutability wrappers was even going to be possible
20:42 whiteknight but, it's looking like they both are, if we work around a few MOP warts
20:44 whiteknight I like being pleasantly surprised by these kinds of things
20:50 whiteknight I am reminded about how lousy it is to inherit a Class from a PMCProxy, however
21:03 fperrad left #parrot
21:07 dukeleto whiteknight: thanks for forging ahead with GSoC stuff. The last week has been a bit insane for me. Still getting back into my groove.
21:08 dukeleto ...o( How Duke Leto Got His Groove Back )o...
21:08 whiteknight dukeleto: No problem. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get into gear myself
21:11 dukeleto whiteknight: perhaps we should have a "gsoc ideas page" virtual hackathon this weekend
21:11 dukeleto whiteknight: even if we don't get into gsoc, an ideas page is a huge resource
21:12 whiteknight let's think positive
21:12 whiteknight we really really want to get in
21:12 davidfetter what's shakin', dukeleto ?
21:12 whiteknight because it would be a kick to the jimmies if we don't get accepted but TPF does
21:15 dukeleto davidfetter: not much. working in Ithaca, NY until next Friday
21:15 dukeleto whiteknight: yes, it would. Which is why we should really improve our Ideas page :)
21:15 davidfetter dukeleto, getting snowed on ?
21:15 dukeleto whiteknight: i will add a few ideas in a few minutes
21:15 dukeleto davidfetter: there was 16inches on Monday, but it has mostly melted by now
21:16 davidfetter whee!
21:16 dukeleto whiteknight: i vouched for Parrot Foundation from the TPF org app, so there is that
21:16 * davidfetter vaguely cognizant of the fact that there's been enormous changes to parrot lately
21:16 davidfetter is there still a PIR?
21:16 whiteknight davidfetter: yes, unfortunately
21:16 dukeleto whiteknight: also, we were chosen as one of the 20 GCI orgs and have a good track record, so that is good.
21:16 whiteknight we move quickly, but not that quickly
21:17 davidfetter "unfortunately?"
21:17 dukeleto davidfetter: whiteknight is not a fan of PIR
21:17 whiteknight dukeleto: I know. I'm optimistic. It would just be very bad if we dropped the ball at this point
21:17 whiteknight davidfetter:
21:17 dukeleto whiteknight: yes, it would.
21:17 whiteknight We can do better than PIR
21:17 dukeleto whiteknight: which is why I wanted to split PaFo/TPF because it was really hard to manage 2 umbrella orgs
21:17 * davidfetter doesn't have a dog in this fight. there's "legacy" PL/PIR, but since there's no prod deployments...
21:17 dukeleto whiteknight: i can now concentrate on parrot stuff and I think I will be more effective
21:17 whiteknight dukeleto: Yes, I know. You were a saint for ever attempting it
21:18 plobsing I always enjoy how PIR is pronounced as "worse" in French
21:18 dukeleto whiteknight: or a fool, but thanks :)
21:18 whiteknight dukeleto: a saint for doing it. A fool for starting the summer thinking it was a good idea
21:18 * davidfetter heard from a french speaker that ENOCLUE is pretty close to a rude verb
21:18 dukeleto I have also seen stickers on cars that say "PIR" which stands for "Portland International Raceway"
21:18 davidfetter (or at least one best mentioned only in private)
21:21 dukeleto whiteknight: we should make sure we have a spectrum of easy, medium and hard project ideas
21:22 whiteknight dukeleto: I've been trying to have several different levels. I gave each idea a ranking out of 5
21:22 whiteknight there are a few 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s
21:23 whiteknight and those are baseline difficulties. The student may propose something with a smaller scope
21:25 dukeleto whiteknight: cool
21:25 dukeleto whiteknight: also, we can troll the "gci" trac tickets for ideas
21:25 whiteknight yes, although many of those may be too small
21:25 dukeleto whiteknight: we can add some stuff to gci tasks to make them "gsoc size"
21:25 dukeleto whiteknight: or package a few together
21:25 whiteknight super size it
21:25 dukeleto whiteknight: scope creep is always free :)
21:26 whiteknight dukeleto, davidfetter: Are there any PL/Parrot-related tasks which could go in the list?
21:26 davidfetter whiteknight, there's always something ;)
21:26 whiteknight well add it to the list! We don't have a lot of time!
21:27 davidfetter linky?
21:29 perlite left #parrot
21:29 whiteknight http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/GSoc2011
21:29 * whiteknight has to pack up and go home now. Later
21:29 whiteknight left #parrot
21:31 perlite joined #parrot
21:33 davidfetter what languages are implemented on top of the current parrot?
21:34 plobsing davidfetter: it depends on your criterion for "implemented"
21:34 davidfetter let's cast a narrow net to start
21:35 davidfetter "passes the original language's own test suite," let's say
21:35 plobsing "works as planned", "works with minor documented bugs", "works with major problems", "skeleton exists and is useable", "skeleton exists and is detrimental to all who look upon it"
21:35 davidfetter how many in the 1st category?
21:35 plobsing most of the older languages fall in the last category and deserve complete rewrite
21:36 plobsing davidfetter: 3 - lua, rakudo, winxed
21:36 davidfetter that's actually pretty awesome. where's LOLCODE?
21:36 plobsing unmaintained so probably in the last or second last category
21:37 davidfetter that's a shame. i guess winxed is small
21:37 tadzik LOLCODE almost passes its tests
21:38 plobsing if you're looking for a particular list of languages, why not use the recent postings to parrot-dev?
21:38 plobsing s/parrot-dev/parrot-users/
21:38 plobsing C# and/or GCC backend
21:38 plobsing both do not yet exist
21:38 davidfetter .oO(PL/winxed)
21:38 plobsing alternatively, scrap Perk and start a new Java on Parrot implementation
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: 32f2a59 | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: Fix error message typo.
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/32f2a59fe6
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: 13b2478 | jonathan++ | src/pmc/serializationcontext.pmc:
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: Add quick and dirty method for getting the index of an object in an SC.
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/13b2478588
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: 929093e | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: D'oh, another typo.
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/929093e14f
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: d17eb00 | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/ (3 files):
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: KnowHOW and it's HOW need to live in a serialization context, so we make a core one.
21:47 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d17eb0041e
21:48 dukeleto davidfetter: yes, PL/winxed could be cool
21:51 hercynium left #parrot
21:52 davidfetter GSoC project?
21:52 davidfetter the thing is, for a real PL, you want some language that could already call other languages
21:53 plobsing winxed can call NQP. Rosella has some examples of exactly this kind of back and forth
21:55 davidfetter of course the language most in play is SQL
21:55 davidfetter are those in the parrot distribution along with winxed?
21:56 plobsing davidfetter: winxed is a separate project developed by NotFound++. rosella is a separate project developed by whiteknight++.
21:57 davidfetter k
22:16 dodathome left #parrot
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22:26 dalek tracwiki: v23 | plobsing++ | GSoc2011
22:26 dalek tracwiki: Add some interesting HLL implementation tasks.
22:26 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=23&amp;action=diff
22:30 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 16 commits to parrot/pmc2c-multi-nativepccmethod by plobsing
22:49 Andy left #parrot
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23:02 rurban_ is now known as rurban
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: c8c7a6f | jonathan++ | build/Makefile.in:
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: Seems that we have got the meta-objects and setting reified into the wrong levels of the bootstrap. :/ As a first step, this fixes up the Makefile dependencies, but it's probably not enough.
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c8c7a6f54a
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: 80b8275 | jonathan++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: First bits towards SC cross-referencing. Not able to use it just yet, due to issues with bootstrap layer reificationa and separate compilation. :/
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/80b8275f8e
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: 765695a | jonathan++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: Little more sketching out in the SC builder.
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/765695a82e
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: 3100f3d | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: Resolve lexically installed items (e.g. don't assume they're all package scoped).
23:10 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3100f3d83d
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23:30 plobsing whiteknight: I'm trying out your imcc_compreg_pmc branch, but I am sofar unable to reproduce the issues you reported seeing.
23:31 whiteknight plobsing: damnit. I need to get on whatever computer you are using
23:33 davidfetter it's a zuse z4
23:35 bubaflub hey whiteknight, i saw that you'd mentor someone to get LAPACK bindings for PLA for GSoC
23:35 bubaflub i'm interested, but would like to do some investigation before i submit a proposal
23:35 whiteknight bubaflub: yeah, PLA has been mostly a solo project by me so ar
23:35 whiteknight far
23:36 bubaflub whiteknight: i remember looking at it awhile back. my only hesitancy is that i haven't really done anything related to generating bindings to foreign or C libraries.
23:42 bubaflub whiteknight: anywhere you'd recommend me to start looking / research to see if this is feasible for me to do?
23:43 whiteknight bubaflub: good question. checkout and build PLA if you haven't yet. I've been working on the test suite, so that might not be working right now
23:43 whiteknight also check out the lapack website
23:44 whiteknight http://www.netlib.org/lapack/
23:44 whiteknight brb
23:44 bubaflub whiteknight: ok.  i'll do that.  i've gotta head ot class but will be back on in 20 or so
23:46 bubaflub left #parrot

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