Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-03-12

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:26 plobsing whiteknight: I've found my problem (I needed to pull), but I am seeing the failure in pbc_to_exe
00:26 whiteknight really? what is it?
00:27 whiteknight I haven't looked too hard yet
00:28 plobsing I'm seeing an assertion failure in pbc_to_exe. trying to lookup string reg 9 when the ctx only has 5.
00:30 whiteknight hm, the error I was seeing was somethig about vtable elements not implemented in Integer
00:30 whiteknight so somewhere along the line we are probably recycling a context
00:31 whiteknight okay, thanks for that information
00:40 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#12030) fulltest) at 3_1_0-784-g34dda14 - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
00:40 whiteknight plobsing: Nice project ideas
00:41 plobsing give the users what they want
00:41 whiteknight I would like to see either of those. I suspect the GCC one would be hard to maintain, but that's not really a criteria
00:42 plobsing hard to create, hard to maintain, hard to sell. but creating it would be a very interesting experience for a determined student and the insights gleaned along the way would be invaluable.
00:42 whiteknight GCC has something of a reputation of being..."difficult" internally
00:43 plobsing which is why people went to the trouble of translating MIPS instructions to JVM classes to avoid working with GCC internals.
00:43 whiteknight I've heard more than a few theories that the code is intentially obfuscated to prevent non-free additions to the code
00:43 plobsing and yes, I have looked inside GCC. sadly I do not know what a const pointer pointer const pointer const is good for. But I've seen one.
00:43 whiteknight ...lolwat?
00:43 whiteknight at that point, you're just being difficult
00:44 whiteknight I call those things a "void*"
00:44 plobsing yeah, they like their pointers around there. a lot apparently.
00:44 plobsing I exagerate a little, but not by much.
00:44 whiteknight I'm sure it's not much
00:44 plobsing there were definitely 4 levels of indirection but no consistency with constness
00:46 plobsing whiteknight: I doubt the obfuscation rumours. compilers are inherently complex. it is an old project. and nobody wants to work on plumbing when there is NEW SHINY OPTIMIZATION to be tried out.
00:48 whiteknight i sort of doubt it too. at the same time, richard stallman can be a little bit crazy
00:49 davidfetter "can be?"
00:49 davidfetter "a little bit?"
00:49 plobsing he wrote emacs. we have proof of his insanity.
00:49 whiteknight his public arguments with linus torvalds, or the guy from Mono are nothing if not absurd and disappointing
00:49 davidfetter i think that being crazy is required for the thing he did, back in the 80s
00:49 davidfetter ...which is to flout all of common wisdom and start a movement in the middle of a market
00:49 whiteknight no doubt, getting open-source software started as a movement is certainly counter intuitive
00:50 davidfetter sadly, once the movement kicks off--and it has, far beyond his wildest dreams--the crazy is still there
00:50 plobsing I used to be an avid emacs user. Then I went to extend it (hey, what are those FSF freedoms for if you don't use them?). Now I use vim on principle.
00:51 * davidfetter was thinking about switching to emacs, just to keep the brain cells active
00:56 whiteknight I tried using emacs once, but it was a long time ago
00:57 whiteknight I may give it another spin eventually. I am perpetually unhappy with my text editors
01:03 mikehh whiteknight: I have been using Kate for a long time - it is very configurable, with lots of plugins
01:05 mikehh I also use gvim and have used emacs but you need to use it regularly if you want to remember the key combos
01:06 plobsing basic key combos for emacs are pretty easy to remember. (by default) they're the same for everything that uses readline.
01:06 Tene I've been very happy with vim.
01:08 davidfetter i'm good with it, and #vim over on fleanode is jammed with helpful, friendly people
01:08 mikehh plobsing: yeah, but if you use other editors you tend to get mixed up (or at least I do) and keep forgettin' how to exit :-}
01:08 davidfetter heh
01:09 plobsing mikehh: you mean it isn't (launch terminal)->killall emacs ?
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01:11 davidfetter the cool kids are using pkill, mostly
01:15 cotto ~~
01:19 Tene fwiw, "Tk for partcl" doesn't seem nearly as good to me as "HLL interop works, Tk library for parrot that can be used by partcl and all other HLLs."
01:21 plobsing is there something about partcl that would prevent a partcl Tk library from working in other HLLs?
01:23 Tene plobsing: Not prevent, it's just that Tk doesn't actually require Tcl
01:24 plobsing whiteknight: investigating further, it appears I had an invalid library/config.pir (not sure how that got built). realclean/config/make now gives no errors again (at b12bcf3e73137e6963b7652abc82988a91a08edd)
01:25 whiteknight plobsing: damnit
01:25 plobsing I've got to figure out why my computer doesn't fail like everyone elses. Then bottle it.
01:27 dukeleto whiteknight: i am not sure TapTinder is a valid Parrot GSoC project
01:29 sorear Tene: I think one of the goals of a gsoc project is that it be something people want
01:29 sorear Tene: the desirability of HLL interop seems quite oversold
01:30 dukeleto Tene: i want HLL interop, but I think that gsoc project idea need more defined deliverables
01:31 dukeleto Tene: perhaps, implement HLL interop enough for X to work
01:31 dukeleto sorear: oversold in what way?
01:32 plobsing dukeleto: "HLL interop enough for X to work" might need a working HLL with an existing large body of software that we'd like to access from another language. I'm not sure any of our currently working HLLs have that.
01:32 dukeleto plobsing: why not "make Lua and Rakudo able to do interop" or somesuch
01:34 plobsing dukeleto: enough to do what with them? there is no large body of Perl 6 software a lua programmer would want to use. There is no large body of lua software (that I know of) that a Perl 6 programmer would want to use.
01:34 plobsing for example, if cardinal were working, we'd be able to say "make HLL interop work well enough to write a small Rails webapp in Rakudo"
01:35 plobsing Rakudo on Rails. that'd be freaky.
01:35 whiteknight dukeleto: I didn't add taptinder to this list. I just reformatted it
01:35 davidfetter .oO(winxed on rails)
01:35 whiteknight dukeleto: remove it if you don't thnk it's workable
01:36 davidfetter winxed on wails?
01:36 dukeleto whiteknight: not that it isn't workable, just not parrot-related
01:36 dukeleto whiteknight: wasn't blaming you, just notifying
01:36 whiteknight right, if it's not for us, we can remove it
01:36 whiteknight no worries
01:36 dukeleto indeed
01:36 dukeleto $self.nom($dinner)
01:37 davidfetter $apetit.bon()
01:37 plobsing ENOVERB
01:40 Tene plobsing: That's been my goal in cardinal all along.  I have little personal interest in ruby, but I have a lot of interest in seeing what it might enable.
01:41 bubaflub Tene: any ideas for cardinal for GSoC?  i'd definitely be interested...
01:41 Tene Once I get a metamodel impl working well enough on 6model, I expect to be able to port large amounts of ruby stdlib from projects like rubinius, start running the rubyspec test suite, etc.
01:41 whiteknight I keep thinking "migrate Cardinal to 6model"
01:41 whiteknight but I think Tene and tewk and others will make that happen before GSoC
01:41 Tene whiteknight: I've been working on that intermittently for the past couple of weeks.
01:42 whiteknight Tene: right.
01:42 Tene whiteknight: tewk hasn't been involved in this iteration of cardinal.  He started a previous iteration with the same name a while before this implementation started.
01:42 Tene you mean treed, maybe.
01:42 whiteknight I only mention his name because he sent a mail to the list recently talking about it
01:43 Tene Ahh, I didn't see that.
01:43 whiteknight right around the time he submitted that Select PMC
01:45 Tene whiteknight: No he didn't; I did, though.
01:45 whiteknight oh, Maybe I misread an email
01:45 whiteknight 4 letters, both start with T
01:46 Tene Yeah, not the first time it's happened.  No worries.
01:49 dalek tracwiki: v24 | dukeleto++ | GSoc2011
01:49 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=24&action=diff
01:49 dalek tracwiki: v25 | dukeleto++ | GSoc2011
01:49 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=25&action=diff
01:49 cotto busy day in here
01:50 Tene An implementation of R5RS or R6RS is probably feasible within 2-3 months, for an aspiring HLL developer for GSOC
01:50 Tene (scheme)
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01:52 whiteknight R5RS?
01:53 plobsing there's also ERR5RS
01:53 whiteknight ok
01:53 Tene Implementation of *some* scheme standard.  There's a fair amount of politics around which one is awesome and which one is horrible, I hear.
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02:34 mikehh oh forgot to report
02:34 mikehh rakudo (a38d453) - builds on parrot (3_1_0-784-g34dda14) - make test, make spectest_smolder[(#12055), roast (d38ece7)] PASS - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (gcc-4.5 with --optimize)
02:34 mikehh 27,629 ok, 0 failed, 604 todo, 1,799 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded
02:34 mikehh bah that was g++ not gcc
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02:38 plobsing whiteknight: how is matrixy doing? how closer are you to say getting the controls toolbox on octaveforge to work? would that be a gsoc-sized thing?
02:38 bubaflub whiteknight: i'm looking at PLA, but it looks like there are known bugs with LAPLACK on Mac OS X
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02:38 whiteknight bubaflub: are you on OSX?
02:39 bubaflub whiteknight: yeah
02:39 bubaflub 10.6 and change
02:39 whiteknight plobsing: matrixy has been on hold for many months now. I took a detour to work on PLA first. I think all the prereqs are in place now, but I probably want to start from scratch instead of salvaging what is there
02:39 whiteknight plobsing: it will eventually be my excuse to learn ohm-eta, unless I want to try to do it all in NQP again
02:40 bubaflub whiteknight: from what i'm reading it looks like Apple includes some LAPACK stuff but not the full thing
02:41 whiteknight bubaflub. Well that's a bummer. You probably won't want to take that project if it's going to be a hassle on your system
02:41 bubaflub whiteknight: heh.  yeah.  i could work within a Virtual Box...
02:41 bubaflub whiteknight: last GSoC with RTEMS i was in a ubuntu virtual box
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02:44 plobsing aw... I was hoping to be able to make misleading but pretty graphs with parrot :(
02:49 dalek Rosella: 9844036 | Whiteknight++ | s (6 files):
02:49 dalek Rosella: proxies have a target_object field, the object which is being proxied (if any). Fix AttributeIntercept to properly handle PMCProxy target_class
02:49 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/9844036b7b
02:49 dalek Rosella: 7a4244c | Whiteknight++ | s (4 files):
02:49 dalek Rosella: add an Immutable proxy builder. cleanup and streamline the decorator builder
02:49 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/7a4244cdd6
02:49 dalek Rosella: 18d1cde | Whiteknight++ | src/proxy/builder/Passthrough.winxed:
02:49 dalek Rosella: fix so the Passthrough builder works correctly
02:49 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/18d1cde35f
02:52 whiteknight okay. apparently I can add a vtable override to a class, but I can't change it once it's been set and I can't remove it
02:53 whiteknight there's an add_vtable_override method and VTABLE, but no remove_vtable_override
02:55 plobsing welcome to parrot's deficient object system
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03:54 whiteknight on the bright side, so long as I don't name any of my attributes "proxy", I can work around most of these warts
03:55 whiteknight considering that the whole library is named "proxy", and it's a library about making proxies, that's a bigger restriction than you would expect
03:55 whiteknight Why, if we're going to set aside an attribute name for internal-only use, we wouldn't pick a name like "!!!@proxy@!!!" instead of something almost any HLL could actually conflict with, I have no idea
03:56 whiteknight I mean, attributes can be named any arbitrary string. So all we have to do is pick a string which most HLLs can't use to name identiiers
03:57 whiteknight ...what's that smell? I think I just found all our missing foresight
03:58 whiteknight it's rotting in a pile, unused
03:59 cotto how internal is that name?
03:59 cotto I think I might be smelling chainsaw oil.
04:00 whiteknight it's all over class.pmc, and the generated code in src/pmc/object.c
04:00 whiteknight or, maybe PMCProxy pmc
04:01 cotto by "internal", I mean "exposed to the outside world and therefore subject to our support policy"
04:03 whiteknight oh
04:03 whiteknight it's rare, and is always  bug
04:07 whiteknight well, maybe not "always", though I'm hard-pressed to find a reason why reserving the attribute name "proxy" in certain situations without warning is a good thing
04:07 whiteknight I guess maybe some advanced hackers might want to get access to the underlying proxy object
04:07 whiteknight although again, I can't think of a reason
04:09 whiteknight anyway, I'm off to bed now
04:09 whiteknight goodnight
04:09 cotto My best guess would be that perhaps Rakudo and kakapo do something with it.
04:09 cotto 'night
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04:38 dalek parrot: b024719 | petdance++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
04:38 dalek parrot: turn on initial hints
04:38 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b02471925c
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05:24 dalek parrot: a8cd489 | petdance++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
05:24 dalek parrot: Splint: Don't complain when mixing booleans and integers
05:24 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a8cd489cd3
05:42 dukeleto ~~
05:45 dalek parrot: b1dfb81 | petdance++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
05:45 dalek parrot: splinting src/gc is too annoying
05:45 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b1dfb81688
05:45 dalek parrot: 236d9cc | petdance++ | / (3 files):
05:45 dalek parrot: Only pointers get ARGIN() decorators
05:45 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/236d9cc141
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05:50 dalek parrot: b96f999 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
05:50 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'leto/embed_grant'
05:50 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b96f9990f4
05:55 dukeleto it seems very hard to use the clone_pmc or cmp_pmc vtables. I am starting to wonder if it is possible at all.
05:56 dukeleto # Exception is: type 44 severity 2 message 'Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp_pmc', with signature 'PP->P''
05:56 dukeleto yet, PP->P seems to be it's signature
05:58 dalek parrot/cmp_pmc: 34a4162 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
05:58 dalek parrot/cmp_pmc: Add failing test for cmp_pmc
05:58 dalek parrot/cmp_pmc: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/34a41623e8
05:59 cotto dukeleto, awesome
06:01 dukeleto yay, i snagged TT# 2^11
06:01 dukeleto cotto: you know what is going on with that?
06:14 dalek TT #2048 created by dukeleto++: cmp_pmc vtable acting wonky
06:14 dalek TT #2048: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2048
06:15 cotto dukeleto, looking now
06:18 cotto dukeleto, it's probably because nothing in the inheritance chain (other than default) implements either the cmp_pmc VTABLE or a MULTI with that name.
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07:43 cotto dukeleto, you still up?
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08:26 cotto seen nwellnhof
08:26 aloha nwellnhof was last seen in #parrot 2 days 11 hours ago saying "~".
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10:33 dalek parrot: b63c2c9 | fperrad++ | runtime/parrot/library/TAP/Harness.pir:
10:33 dalek parrot: [TAP] refactor with StringBuilder
10:33 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b63c2c91dc
10:33 dalek parrot: b1fa14e | fperrad++ | runtime/parrot/library/Archive/Tar.pir:
10:33 dalek parrot: [Tar] minor refactor
10:33 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b1fa14ed34
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11:42 * mikehh switching to amd64 - bbiab
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12:15 mikehh looks like comment on TT #985 is SPAM
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12:30 dalek Rosella: 2b4af8d | Whiteknight++ | / (7 files):
12:30 dalek Rosella: fixes to immutable proxy builder. Method and Attribute intercept builder default behavior is to check the controller first then fall back to the target object. Add tests for Passthrough, MethodIntercept, and AttributeIntercept
12:30 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/2b4af8dfe8
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12:50 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#12103) fulltest) at 3_1_0-793-gb1fa14e - Kubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
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14:47 dukeleto ~~
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15:37 lucian allison: hi
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16:09 cotto ~~
16:11 whiteknight hello cotto
16:12 cotto good morning, whiteknight
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16:29 dukeleto cotto: pong
16:29 dukeleto cotto: so what should I do about writing cmp_pmc tests?
16:31 bubaflub good morning dukeleto
16:34 cotto dukeleto, I suspect that I pinged you to ask if you thought that having M0's ffi use the types in libffi would be sufficient for any ffi needs.
16:36 cotto https://github.com/atgreen/libf​fi/blob/master/doc/libffi.info ("primitive types")
16:38 cotto dukeleto, I originally added cmp_pmc for Pipp's arrays.  I need to dig up the exact reason.
16:42 dukeleto bubaflub: mornin'
16:42 dukeleto cotto: i was ponging you in response to what I should do with cmp_pmc
16:42 dukeleto bubaflub: started the new gig yet?
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16:44 dukeleto bubaflub: have any ideas for parrot in GSoC 2011 ?
16:44 cotto dukeleto, I'm wondering if it's necessary.
16:45 whiteknight dukeleto, cotto: have you two signed up for projects you'd be willing to mentor?
16:47 cotto whiteknight,
16:47 cotto I will soon have
16:47 bubaflub dukeleto: not yet, this is my last week at Wolfram
16:47 allison lucian: hi
16:47 whiteknight There are a lot of good ideas on that page
16:47 bubaflub dukeleto: i was looking at PLA and the GSL bindings
16:47 bubaflub dukeleto: possibly doing something with Plack for Perl
16:48 dukeleto whiteknight: i think i may just try to stay org admin again. I will of course meta-mentor any of our students, but I think being org admin is enough work
16:48 whiteknight dukeleto: Okay, that's fine too
16:48 dukeleto whiteknight: i am trying to think up more ideas for the ideas page now, though
16:48 cotto editing now
16:48 dukeleto bubaflub: we need more meat on our ideas page, it would be awesome if you could throw a few ideas on there
16:49 dukeleto watch out for conflicts on the trac wiki
16:49 cotto done
16:49 dukeleto bubaflub: perhaps porting Math::Primality to parrot ?
16:49 bubaflub dukeleto: oooooh.  do we have GMP bindings?
16:50 whiteknight not good ones
16:50 bubaflub so perhaps GMP bindings first?
16:51 dukeleto bubaflub: we have basic GMP bindings, but yes, we need access to more of GMP
16:51 dukeleto bubaflub: that is a great idea, can you add it?
16:51 cotto you could do a pure-pir pmc to wrap those using nci
16:51 bubaflub dukeleto: yeah.  anyone willing to mentor that?  i'd love to work on that this summer
16:52 dukeleto bubaflub: are you still eligble to be a student in GSoC ?
16:52 bubaflub dukeleto: yep.
16:52 dukeleto bubaflub: or are you saying you want to be a mentor?
16:52 dukeleto bubaflub: oh, cool!
16:52 dukeleto bubaflub: i guess I my arm could be twisted to mentor you....
16:52 bubaflub dukeleto: hahaha
16:52 bubaflub dukeleto: winning.
16:52 dukeleto bubaflub: only because I know you won't need much help ;)
16:53 dalek tracwiki: v26 | cotto++ | GSoc2011
16:53 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=26&action=diff
16:54 bubaflub dukeleto: i think we can do what Sysiphus did with Math::GMPz and other related modules - separate integer, rational, and complex functions
16:59 dukeleto bubaflub: sounds like a plan, stan
17:00 lucian allison: you said at some point that there are some license/cp issues with pynie
17:00 allison lucian: not issues
17:00 allison lucian: just we'd like to donate it to the Python Software Foundation
17:01 allison lucian: or, if we start from scratch, make it a PSF project from the start
17:01 allison the PSF board is still open to the idea, the Chairman asked me about it yesterday
17:01 lucian allison: right. nice
17:01 dukeleto allison: who is the chairman these days?
17:01 allison (and full disclosure, I'm also on the PSF board)
17:01 lucian i didn't really expect that, i say PSF dead-set on cpython
17:01 allison Steve Holden
17:01 dukeleto allison: ok, that is what I thought, but making sure
17:02 allison no, not at all, the PSF actively supports all implementations
17:02 allison they just gave a $10k check to PyPy
17:02 lucian allison: sure, but they only seem to want to own cpython
17:02 dukeleto allison: he just moved to PDX. Might be interesting to meet with him
17:02 * lucian likely had the wrong impression
17:02 allison and have actively stated this week that they're open to grant applications from all implementations
17:02 dukeleto allison: that is quite interesting
17:03 lucian indeed
17:03 allison especially if those grant applications are for implementations of Python 3
17:03 allison (which pynie currently is)
17:04 lucian allison: right. would you be willing (and have time) to mentor me on pynie-ng?
17:05 whiteknight getting a good python implementation up and running on Parrot should really be considered a high priority for us
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17:06 dukeleto lucian: if pynie-ng isn't on our ideas page yet, it should be
17:06 whiteknight lucian: Can you add it to the ideas page?
17:06 lucian here? http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/GSoc2011
17:07 allison lucian: sure
17:07 bubaflub dukeleto: i've updated the ideas page with GMP bindings
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17:08 * lucian needs to make a trac account apparently
17:08 dalek tracwiki: v27 | bubaflub++ | GSoc2011
17:08 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=27&action=diff
17:09 Tene once I get cardinal running on 6model, I'd love to write a python object model in 6model too
17:09 whiteknight lucian: What are your ideas for pynie-ng? I'm very interested to hear what you are thinking
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17:09 dukeleto bubaflub++
17:09 lucian whiteknight: as i said before, try to move as much as possible to pure-python. ideally reusing existing compilers/other code
17:09 lucian Tene: i won't bother with that yet :)
17:09 whiteknight any specific existing compilers and other code you have in mind?
17:10 * lucian is confused by 6model
17:10 lucian whiteknight: PyPy has a good one
17:10 lucian there are a few more
17:10 M_o_C joined #parrot
17:11 whiteknight Tene: how much work have you done with 6model already?
17:11 lucian do i need special permissions to edit trac pages?
17:11 whiteknight lucian: let me look
17:11 cotto lucian, no more than you have ;)
17:11 whiteknight lucian: are you a committer?
17:12 lucian whiteknight: no
17:12 * lucian is likely not finding the obvious 'edit' button
17:12 Tene whiteknight: I haven't contributed anything to 6model yet.  I've got a RubyClassHOW working for some things, and doing a few things that the parrot version couldn't, but it's not quite there yet.
17:12 bubaflub lucian: bottom of the page
17:12 cotto lucian, I just flipped the bit on your commit.
17:12 cotto er, account
17:12 whiteknight Tene: I only ask because we want to get 6model into Parrot at some point, and we are going to need help with that from people experienced with it
17:13 Tene whiteknight: jnthn was talking about writing a simple repr class for me to use, that just does flat attribute storage without looking at ancestors; if he doesn't get to it before I'm done with these other tasks, I may end up doing it myself.
17:17 lucian cotto: uh, can't seem to edit anything. even searched for "edit"
17:17 Tene whiteknight: It seems likely that I'll help with that work.
17:17 whiteknight lucian: edit button should be at the very bottom of the page
17:18 bubaflub lucian: PM me the text you'd like, i'll put it on the page
17:18 whiteknight Tene: Awesome. When the time comes we will need all the help we can get
17:18 lucian whiteknight: not there
17:18 dukeleto lucian: stupid wiki spams makes us have to not allow editing by default
17:18 * dukeleto kicks spammers in the face
17:18 Tene whiteknight: we currently need all the help we can get. ;)
17:19 whiteknight lucian: I fixed something in trac. Try again
17:19 whiteknight Tene: of course, but with 6model in particular
17:19 bacek left #parrot
17:20 lucian whiteknight: ah, there we go
17:20 whiteknight lucian: you were in group "developers", not "developer"
17:22 bubaflub left #parrot
17:22 cotto sigh
17:22 bubaflub joined #parrot
17:23 cotto apparently I shouldn't be doing anything that involves a keyboard today
17:23 whiteknight I know the feeling. I had stupidfingers yesterday
17:24 cotto dukeleto, you can nuke cmp_pmc if there's no good way to test it, provided no active hll is using it
17:24 cotto (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
17:25 cotto though that does require a deprecation cycle
17:25 whiteknight what ever happened with pipp?
17:25 cotto whiteknight, it's dormant
17:25 kid51 joined #parrot
17:26 whiteknight which language was that, php?
17:26 cotto yes
17:27 lucian python3 on parrot added http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/GSoc2011
17:27 dukeleto lucian++
17:29 bubaflub mod_parrot with pipp would be cool
17:29 Tene rather
17:29 Tene I had a lot of fun with mod_parrot a couple of years ago.
17:30 bubaflub Tene: what happened to mod_parrot?
17:30 Tene bubaflub: nothing.
17:30 dukeleto bubaflub: it existed before our embed/extend interface, so it relied directly on parrot internals
17:31 bubaflub ah, so a bit fragile
17:31 dukeleto bubaflub: which change about every other day. Development stopped on mod_parrot and it quickly got TEH BITROT
17:31 whiteknight a new mod_parrot using proper interfaces would be a great tool
17:31 bubaflub whiteknight: agreed
17:31 dukeleto a new mod_parrot using whiteknight++'s new embed api would be sweet
17:31 Tene bubaflub: Just... nobody was working on it, it was an external project that only (mostly) one guy was working on, and we didn't have a centralized replace doing smoke testing...
17:31 bubaflub there is a Parrot in Apache project, but no mentors listed
17:32 bubaflub (on the GSoc2011 page)
17:32 whiteknight yeah, I added that
17:32 whiteknight Coke mentioned it might be a good project
17:33 Tene I can probably be a resource for the templating engine project
17:34 bubaflub i've used Apache, but never done any module writing for it
17:34 bubaflub if it doesn't go for GSoC, i'd be willing to work on it independently
17:35 bubaflub i think it would help drive PHP, Python, Perl6, and Ruby HLLs
17:35 bubaflub (among other things)
17:35 whiteknight bubaflub: my thoughts exactly
17:35 Tene argh I really need sleep.  Very very bad that I stayed up this late two nights in a row.
17:35 Tene wtf am I doing?
17:35 whiteknight Tene: The template engine was my idea too. We should talk about it when you're rested
17:35 Tene afk sleeping
17:35 Tene whiteknight: Sure.
17:36 whiteknight goodnight
17:36 Tene we could also add a task for real threading, as an alternative to green threads
17:37 Tene interpreter sandboxing, perhaps
17:37 whiteknight I am holding off on real threading because there are some things we need first (a data sharing system, for example)
17:37 whiteknight sandboxing would make a great project too
17:37 bubaflub what happened to last year's GSoC project related to threads?
17:37 whiteknight I hate to think about anything like that when we are already talking about major interp refactors for lorito
17:38 Tene are there any lorito-related tasks that we could give out?
17:38 whiteknight bubaflub: Chandon was able to get a green threads implementation mostly working on Linux only
17:38 whiteknight Tene: good question. That's for cotto to think about
17:38 Tene someone should definitely add a scheme implementation to the list of suggestions
17:38 Tene that's a small enough language to do quite a bit of in 2-3 months
17:38 whiteknight Tene: okay, we'll keep that in mind
17:39 whiteknight I don't know much about Scheme, so I probably won't add it as an idea
17:39 Tene Parrot as a browser plugin is an entertaining proposal.
17:39 dalek tracwiki: v28 | lucian++ | GSoc2011
17:39 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=28&action=diff
17:39 dalek tracwiki: v29 | jkeenan++ | GSoc2011
17:40 dalek tracwiki: Add basic links to explain what 'LALR' means
17:40 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=29&action=diff
17:40 Tene javascript impl would be nice, but would be a lot better after better 6model support.
17:40 Tene okay fine sleep now really.
17:40 cotto Tene, do it now.
17:40 bubaflub goodnight Tene, goodnight moon
17:40 lucian scheme would be interesting indeed, i think there was already a partial implementation
17:41 lucian Tene: g'night
17:41 cotto We'd need to be careful about M0/Lorito projects.  M0 is deliberately too small to be implemented as a gsoc project on its own.
17:41 cotto I suspect that the spec will be ready by the time gsoc ramps up.
17:43 lucian someone kick Tene :)
17:44 dukeleto I think M0 is too ill-defined and complicated to be a GSoC project, for the time being
17:44 dukeleto let's not torture our students, at least not *that* much ;)
17:44 cotto dukeleto, right now yes, but I don't think it'll stay that way for long
17:45 cotto once the spec is more or less ready, the actual implementation will be a 2-3 week project rather than a 2-3 month project
17:52 dukeleto cotto: yes, I think we are close, but would rather not rush anything. Slow and steady wins the race...
17:54 cotto dukeleto, of course
17:54 cotto I think it'll be ready soon at a reasonable pace
17:54 * cotto goes afk
17:54 lucian cotto: is there a wiki page?
17:55 dukeleto lucian: wiki page about what? M0 ?
17:55 lucian yep
17:55 dukeleto lucian: should be
17:55 lucian can't search for m0, too short
17:55 cotto lucian, there's a spec that contains the current state
17:56 cotto m0-spec branch, pdd in drafts
17:56 cotto afk for real
17:56 dukeleto lucian: there is also a 'lorito' branch which is a prototype in dynops, but it needs some love. I haven't had time in the last few weeks to update it with recent spec changes
17:57 dukeleto lucian: M0 is the lowest level of Lorito
17:57 lucian not knowing what exactly lorito/m0 look like, i'm worried there will be too much reinvention of wheels
17:59 dukeleto lucian: which wheels are you worried that will be re-implemented?
17:59 bubaflub dukeleto: i'm thinking about doing the GMP bindings, where should i read about doing parrot level bindings and NCI stuff?
17:59 bubaflub s/where/what/g
17:59 lucian dukeleto: jvm ones, mostly
17:59 * lucian reads
17:59 dukeleto lucian: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/blob​/m0-spec/docs/pdds/draft/pdd32_m0.pod
18:00 dukeleto lucian: we are basically refactoring parrot internals such that JIT is not impossible to implement
18:00 dukeleto lucian: that is the gist
18:00 * bubaflub is happy everytime he sees POD rendered in GitHub
18:00 dukeleto bubaflub++ for that
18:01 lucian dukeleto: the way i understand it, you're trying to implement everything in jittable stuff
18:01 whiteknight left #parrot
18:01 dukeleto lucian: we are basically creates the smallest set of opcodes that the rest of parrot can be implemented in
18:01 dukeleto lucian: well, we want to minimize crossing the Parrot <-> C boundary, so basically, yes
18:01 bubaflub be back in an hour
18:01 lucian dukeleto: if you "forked" c, you could do that easily
18:02 bubaflub left #parrot
18:02 lucian is that what M1? wants to be?
18:02 dalek parrot/m0-spec: 6b78406 | dukeleto++ | docs/pdds/draft/pdd32_m0.pod:
18:02 dalek parrot/m0-spec: PDDs no longer have versions
18:02 dalek parrot/m0-spec: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/6b784065db
18:02 dukeleto lucian: M1 will basically be on the same level as PIR and will be implemented in terms of M0 ops
18:03 dukeleto lucian: M0 is very low-level. Blobs of memory and indexing into them
18:03 lucian dukeleto: right. any reason to have m0 at all then?
18:03 dukeleto lucian: M1 will have a concept of objects and a MOP. M0 will not.
18:03 lucian wait, m1 ~= pir, misread that
18:03 lucian and will m1 be assembly or structured?
18:04 dukeleto lucian: it currently looks like M0 will consist of somewhere between 30-40 opcodes
18:04 dukeleto lucian: fixed width
18:04 lucian sounds reasonable
18:04 dukeleto lucian: which will make JITability possible. Very little Parrot <=> C boundary crossing, except when absolutely necessary (FFI/etc)
18:05 * lucian finds GH's 404 funny
18:07 dukeleto lucian: indeed. those guys are hilarious
18:07 lucian dukeleto: so does M1 want to be more like jvm assembly, or more like C + parrot objects?
18:08 dukeleto lucian: i don't quite know what jvm assembly looks like, but M1 will mostly be what Parrot developers implement parrot core stuff with, if that makes sense
18:08 lucian dukeleto: it moves! that's the awesome bit
18:08 lucian dukeleto: http://jasmin.sourceforge.net/
18:08 dukeleto lucian: M1 should be as pleasant to use as PIR *cough* ::ducks::
18:09 lucian dukeleto: that's exactly that i'd like to *not* see
18:09 lucian i don't get why *anything* besides M0 should even resemble assembly
18:09 dukeleto lucian: sure. we can make M1 10x more pleasant than M0, if we want
18:10 lucian tower of increasingly complex assemblies seems silly
18:10 dukeleto lucian: it remains to be seen whether we will stop at M1 or if we need to have a candy-dipped M2 that comes with pink unicorns and bacon
18:10 lucian dukeleto: so why not retarget/fork winxed?
18:10 lucian or finish Close, to target M0
18:10 dukeleto lucian: that could still happen. Nothing is impossible
18:11 dukeleto lucian: Close is also a possibility, but it is currently bitrotten because the sole dev is not around anymore
18:11 lucian dukeleto: right
18:11 lucian yes, i noticed
18:11 dalek tracwiki: v30 | lucian++ | GSoc2011
18:11 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=30&amp;action=diff
18:11 lucian dalek: i hate you
18:11 dukeleto lucian: the M0 spec is the most important thing now, how it will be implemented is still up in the air
18:11 dukeleto lucian: once we have a solid spec, we will be in much better shape
18:12 dukeleto lucian: does jasmin still work?
18:12 lucian dukeleto: i'm not sure a spec written in vitro will be very good
18:12 lucian dukeleto: not sure. dalvik's asm is based on it, though, and that certainly works
18:13 dukeleto lucian: jasmin is still on CVS. yuck.
18:13 lucian dukeleto: oh, so much code is still in cvs/svn
18:13 dukeleto lucian: what do you mean by "spec written in vitro" ?
18:13 lucian or even git
18:13 * lucian ducks
18:13 dukeleto lucian: yep, doesn't mean I can't complain about it :)
18:13 * dukeleto loves to complain
18:13 lucian complaining is great!
18:14 lucian dukeleto: i mean that the spec isn't targeted by a compiler
18:14 dukeleto I actually think we should just go back to posting tarballs and patches to Usenet. It worked great!
18:14 dukeleto lucian: it will be targetted by a compiler, but how can a compiler target something that doesn't exist yet?
18:15 lucian dukeleto: by doing it incrementally, i guess. i'm just thinking of a compiler as a unit test
18:15 dukeleto lucian: we want a spec. we don't want to repeat perl 5's mistake of having no spec
18:16 dukeleto lucian: there is atrodo++'s prototype that lives outside core
18:16 lucian dukeleto: how do you plan to validate it?
18:16 dukeleto lucian: https://github.com/atrodo/​lorito/blob/master/ops.pod
18:16 dukeleto lucian: validate our spec?
18:16 lucian yep
18:16 dukeleto lucian: i guess a working implementation is validation. Our spec will probably grow a test suite
18:17 lucian right
18:17 dukeleto lucian: atrodo++'s lorito pre-dates the current spec, so some stuff is different, but it really helped us in figuring out what we wanted for M0
18:36 lucian dukeleto: i should probably try to design a structured system language that targets the M0 spec, since i'm so fussed about it :)
18:38 dukeleto lucian: sure, works for me
18:38 dukeleto lucian: and if you see any holes in the m0 spec, please let us know. Feel free to commit to that branch or send pull requests
18:39 lucian dukeleto: i'll most likely procrastinate away from it :)
18:39 lucian anyway, i'll have a look anyway
18:42 tadzik . o O ( Not-Quite-Close )
18:43 lucian tadzik: sounds good
18:45 tadzik that's actually what came to my mind a few minutes ago, whilst eating :)
18:47 dukeleto . o O (Pretty Close)
18:47 dukeleto or even better, Pretty Close To Close (PCTC)
18:58 dalek tracwiki: v31 | dukeleto++ | GSoc2011
18:58 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=31&amp;action=diff
18:59 bubaflub joined #parrot
19:12 wknight-phone joined #parrot
19:28 dukeleto wknight-phone: new android phone?
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: f1f3fad | petdance++ | / (2 files):
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: pulled out the old flags
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f1f3fad5a0
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: a8862ff | petdance++ | splint01.log:
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: starting a new splint log tracking
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a8862ff2fa
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: 0809f4e | petdance++ | / (2 files):
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: set two functions as pure.  Use size_t instead of int in loop vars.
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/0809f4e3de
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: 4ad0adc | petdance++ | splint02.log:
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: quiet warnings
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/4ad0adc9af
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: f8cda16 | petdance++ | / (3 files):
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: added new splint flags
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f8cda1624d
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: e5bfe34 | petdance++ | / (3 files):
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: added new flags
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e5bfe34663
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: 28cfe25 | petdance++ | / (3 files):
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:parrot/parrot into splint-quiet
19:28 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/28cfe255c1
19:29 wknight-phone dukeleto, in the last few months
19:30 * dukeleto migrates back to his hotel from the coffee shop
19:33 zby_home left #parrot
19:38 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: 173b724 | petdance++ | / (3 files):
19:38 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: more flag reorganization
19:38 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/173b724a2a
19:44 wknight-phone left #parrot
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20:21 bubaflub left #parrot
20:31 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: cd0b569 | petdance++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
20:31 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: save me some hassle
20:31 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/cd0b5698fa
20:31 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: 25e7c49 | petdance++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
20:31 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: quieting integer squawks
20:31 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/25e7c49cdd
20:34 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: 07d5250 | petdance++ | splint06.log:
20:34 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: quieted integer bummers
20:34 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/07d525016e
20:42 M_o_C left #parrot
20:53 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: af6cde4 | petdance++ | s (2 files):
20:53 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: remove a potentially NULL path
20:53 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/af6cde44b0
20:53 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: 93ddd04 | petdance++ | / (3 files):
20:53 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: Parrot_ex_build_exception cannot actually return null
20:53 dalek parrot/splint-quiet: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/93ddd042b5
20:53 Andy left #parrot
20:56 cotto ~~
21:23 lucian left #parrot
21:32 theory left #parrot
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22:52 dalek tracwiki: v32 | mj41++ | GSoc2011
22:52 dalek tracwiki: TapTinder
22:52 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/​GSoc2011?version=32&amp;action=diff
22:59 mikehh winxed (r856) builds on parrot 3_1_0-793-gb1fa14e - make test/test1/test2 PASS- ran some examples -  - Kubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
23:01 rurban_ joined #parrot
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23:03 rurban_ is now known as rurban
23:13 * mikehh headed back to i386 - bbiab
23:17 dukeleto anybody know how to set a Key PMC to a value from C?
23:17 dukeleto i have created the Key PMC, but I don't see how to actually set it to a value so I can use it to look something up
23:21 * dukeleto reads the source of src/pmc/key.pmc
23:22 * dukeleto cries
23:23 mikehh so sad
23:23 dukeleto i guess i need to set_string_native on it
23:23 dukeleto mikehh: there are some sad comments in key.pmc
23:23 mikehh could be
23:24 mikehh hey dukeleto, I am happy to be a general mentor for GSoC - monitoring codetest etc and a specific one for anything that fits
23:25 cotto dukeleto, Parrot_key_new_X?
23:25 dukeleto mikehh: awesome!
23:27 dukeleto cotto: that looks useful, thanks
23:27 dukeleto cotto: now stuff is blowing up because I am creating a hash PMC, but it doesn't seem to be initialize
23:27 dukeleto initialized, rather
23:27 mikehh dukeleto: I think I am registered through TPF, but would generally be more use for Pafo
23:28 dukeleto mikehh: once we orgs are accepted, we will figure it all out
23:28 dukeleto cotto: what do I have to do, from C, to initialize a Hash PMC ?
23:28 dukeleto cotto: Parrot_hash_new, i guess
23:29 dukeleto cotto: i was using the Parrot_PMC_new(...) junk, which doesn't seem to initialize anything
23:29 dukeleto cotto: it blows up less with Parrot_hash_new()
23:30 dukeleto what does "# src/extend.c:127: failed assertion 's'
23:30 dukeleto actually mean?
23:30 dukeleto what is 's' ?
23:31 dukeleto ah, i have seen the light
23:31 dukeleto it is actually an error from Parrot_printf, duh.
23:34 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: b5c04c3 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
23:34 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_defined_keyed_int
23:34 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b5c04c317c
23:35 * dukeleto finally wrote a test that uses Key PMCs. The rest should be much easier.
23:47 dalek nqp: 82145f5 | jonathan++ | / (4 files):
23:47 dalek nqp: Add a simple REPR that just stores values in a flat hash for Tene++.
23:47 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/82145f5128
23:52 theory joined #parrot
23:57 benabik left #parrot

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