Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-03-16

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:10 dalek parrot/m0-spec: 590d4dc | cotto++ | docs/pdds/draft/pdd32_m0.pod:
00:10 dalek parrot/m0-spec: define "thunk"
00:10 dalek parrot/m0-spec: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/590d4dce91
00:10 dalek parrot/m0-spec: ea642d1 | cotto++ | docs/pdds/draft/pdd32_m0.pod:
00:10 dalek parrot/m0-spec: spell out the alternative ffi concepts more explicitly
00:10 dalek parrot/m0-spec: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/ea642d1725
00:13 bubaflub dukeleto: my talk for YAPC::NA got accepted!
00:14 whiteknight bubaflub++
00:14 whiteknight what is the talk about?
00:14 bubaflub my GSoC experience from 2 years ago with Math::Primality
00:15 whiteknight oh nice
00:16 bubaflub and some other fun stuff along the way
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01:12 cotto ~~
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01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: 73f5c94 | tene++ | / (4 files):
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: Merge branch 'master' into ctmo
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo:
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: Conflicts:
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: build/Makefile.in
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/73f5c949bb
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: 26d43ed | tene++ | / (14 files):
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: Merge branch 'ctmo' of github.com:perl6/nqp into ctmo
01:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/26d43ed705
01:37 dalek nqp/ctmo: a6496e3 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
01:37 dalek nqp/ctmo: Make lexical package declarations kinda work (symbol installation is lexical, though a bunch of other bits to do to have real leixcal packages). First actual use of the static lexpad stuff.
01:37 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a6496e331b
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02:09 * cotto will be talking at yapc::na
02:13 bubaflub cotto: yeah, i saw your talk about Parrot... looks cool
02:14 cotto bubaflub, thanks
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02:33 * atrodo marks cotto
02:33 atrodo 's talk
02:33 atrodo why does ' and enter have to be so close?
02:34 cotto Phew.  I figured sweeping would be next.
02:37 atrodo awww, i can't mark the talk yet
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03:13 * dukeleto evidently missed an epic #ps today
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03:25 cotto dukeleto, there was an after party
03:26 cotto and by "after party", I mean "python on parrot planning meeting"
03:38 dukeleto cotto: yes, i read all the logs
03:38 dukeleto cotto: good stuff. very exciting
03:38 dukeleto cotto: you got a talk accepted to YAPC::NA ?
03:42 cotto dukeleto, I did.  They were pretty fast.
03:44 dukeleto cotto: i got a lightning talk accepted
03:45 cotto dukeleto, I love lightning talks
03:45 * dukeleto plans to throw lightning bolts at the crowd
03:45 cotto I see bubaflub also has a talk
03:46 cotto ...
03:46 cotto On the list of talks, mine, "Parrot: State of the VM" is right below mst's "State of the Velociraptor"
03:47 cotto better names are welcome.  I didn't want to block on that.
03:48 * cotto sees no chromatic and is sad
03:50 dukeleto cotto: "State of the Aviary/Nest" ?
03:51 dukeleto cotto: yep, i told him to submit a talk about his gsoc project
03:51 dukeleto cotto: i wonder if they are still going to add more talks, or if that is "it"
03:52 cotto dukeleto, I'll start writing it and see what kind of a title fits.
03:52 cotto their deadline is tomorrow, but I'm sure they'll let stragglers in for a little bit
03:53 Util Didn't Allison call it the "State of the Carrot" at a past YAPC?
03:54 cotto I don't recall that.
03:54 cotto Util, do you remember what year?
03:54 allison "What do you get when you cross a Camel with a Parrot?"
03:54 allison yes, two years running
03:54 cotto dukeleto, actual deadline is the 24, I guess
03:55 allison er... years, it was while I was president of tpf
03:55 allison so, like 2004-5ish?
03:55 allison or 2003-4ish
03:55 cotto so before my time
03:55 allison yah
03:56 allison but, the pun is really intended for Perl-on-Parrot
03:56 cotto I'm hoping I can find a suitably punful title.
03:57 allison plus, reusing it may bring back PTSD memories of the terrible carrot jokes I told, so possibly best avoided :)
03:57 Util Google says "State of the Carrot" has 22m of video online
03:58 dukeleto allison: very exciting to read the irc logs about pynie stuff that was talked about in #ps today
03:58 plobsing that's a lot of root vegetable related comedy
03:59 allison dukeleto: yeah, I'm happy with the strategy
03:59 allison plobsing: if you get the YAPC::EU version I'm also severely jetlagged. there are somethings one might wish weren't recorded for all posterity ;)
04:00 cotto now I have to watch
04:00 allison :)
04:00 dukeleto allison: would you mind sending a quick email to parrot-dev summarizing what the current plan is? Basically just a copy-and-paste of your summary towards the end of the #ps after-party
04:01 dukeleto allison: the plan for pynie, that is
04:01 allison dukeleto: sure, not tonight, but will do tomorrow
04:01 dukeleto allison: very exciting stuff. I want to make sure everybody hears about it
04:01 dukeleto allison: works for me
04:06 dukeleto cotto: well, we both will be at YAPC::NA, so it is time to start planning a hackathon
04:07 cotto +yes
04:07 cotto and a BoF session
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12:21 kid51 ~~
12:23 dukeleto kid51: mornin'
12:41 Coke msg bacek your blog is added to the planet.
12:41 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
12:41 Coke Your distinctiveness will be added to our own.
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12:51 * atrodo never realized planet parrot was the borg
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12:57 Luiji99 Is there a way to compile Parrot without Perl?
12:58 atrodo I'm pretty sure that perl is a hard dependency for parrot at this point
13:01 Luiji99 That should be removed. I mean, what if someone want's to use Parrot/blizkost as the Perl implementation?
13:01 Luiji99 Wait...oh, dumb old me!
13:02 Luiji99 It appears Blizkost uses the normal Perl implementation anyway!
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13:15 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
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13:29 dukeleto whiteknight: mornin'
13:30 dukeleto benabik: how goes it?
13:30 benabik dukeleto: Coffffeeeeee....
13:30 dukeleto benabik: yes, I am pre-coffee as well. Not a pretty sight...
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13:50 benabik dukeleto: What's up in the world of #parrot this morning?  Saw there was an interesting discussion in #ps yesterday after I had to leave.
13:51 dukeleto benabik: python on parrot (pynie) is coming alive again. pypy and parrot peeps look like they will work together
13:52 benabik Excellent.  I really need to learn Python.  It really took off at my school while I was off working between my BS and MS.
13:53 atrodo I was excited to see such a great conversation take place last night.  it was a good read
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13:53 novabyte benabik: probably because MIT switched to teaching python :)
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13:54 benabik novabyte: That I hadn't heard.  I think RIT does three quarters of Python and one of Java now for their base CS classes.
13:55 dukeleto novabyte: switched from what?
13:56 novabyte dukeleto: scheme if I remember correctly
13:56 dukeleto I remember that my university CS dept classes were all Java, which was one of the reasons I switched to math :)
13:58 novabyte dukeleto: Java's not so bad, it's what I learnt to program with. The extensive collection of libraries and the ease with which you can incorporate them into your packages is nice. Of course learning smalltalk and C is also sweet.
13:59 moritz it's just not very expressive
14:00 novabyte moritz: very much agreed :)
14:01 dukeleto benabik: are you going to apply to GSoC this year?
14:01 dukeleto novabyte: are you a prospective gsoc student as well?
14:01 novabyte moritz: and the standard lib is ridiculously verbose (as are most java libraries).
14:01 moritz novabyte: as are nearly all libraries, due to lack of expressiveness
14:02 benabik dukeleto: That's the plan.  Was interested in working on a parser generator, although the PyPy project sounds interesting.  :-D  Apps open in a week or so, right?
14:02 * moritz will never volunteer to do high-level programming work in a language without closures
14:02 benabik *PyPy, Pynie, whatever-we're-calling-python-on-parrot-today
14:02 moritz pypal!
14:02 novabyte dukeleto: I'm a masters student trying to sort out a thesis topic. I spoke a bit with atrodo and whiteknight about it. I mentioned the discussion to my supervisor... who unsurprisingly hasn't got back to me...
14:03 novabyte benabik: pyrot? :)
14:03 benabik novabyte: Same boat here, although GSoC probably won't have much to do with my prospective thesis...  That reminds me, I have to find out someone's office hours for this quarter...
14:04 novabyte benabik: maybe look at lemon for parser generator inspiration (and of course yacc and ANTLR)
14:05 novabyte benabik: http://www.hwaci.com/sw/lemon/
14:06 benabik novabyte: Lemon looked interesting, but I seem to remember thinking poorly of it for some reason.  My initial thinking was to use the age-old yacc algorithm, although parser derivatives really caught my eye.
14:07 atrodo moritz> Once i grasped closures, i started asking myself why I hadn't been using them since I learned programming
14:07 novabyte benabik: I'm intrigued, why did you think poorly of it?
14:09 novabyte benabik: not sure if this is of any interest: www.ialab.cs.tsukuba.ac.jp/~mizusima​/publications/paste513-mizushima.pdf
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14:09 benabik novabyte: I don't remember.  I may be thinking of something else...  We covered a variety of generators in my compiler course last quarter and I get them a little confused sometimes.
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14:10 NotFound Hi
14:10 benabik o/ NotFound
14:11 novabyte benabik: fair enough, as far as I know lemon is rarely mentioned because it doesn't use the same (similar) grammar syntax as yacc/bison
14:14 benabik novabyte: Paper looks interesting, although I still need to figure out how PEGs are different than normal CFGs.
14:16 dalek winxed: r861 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
14:16 dalek winxed: allow switch without any case
14:16 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=861
14:17 novabyte benabik: no probs, I came across it after doing some reading on parser generators while porting lemon to the D programming language ;)
14:17 dukeleto benabik, novabyte : don't wait for your profs, GSoC will open up many opportunities for you.
14:17 benabik novabyte: Although my major worry with PEGs is that the only generator I've seen with PEGs didn't catch errors or abiguities in the grammar, which I've determined is a big no-no.  (Also a problem I had with NQP.)
14:17 dukeleto i think Google will announce accepted orgs this week
14:18 * benabik crosses fingers for PaFo.
14:18 novabyte dukeleto: GSoC as well as masters thesis?
14:19 benabik dukeleto: Wasn't planning on waiting for any profs for GSoC.  :-D
14:20 dukeleto benabik: good idea
14:20 novabyte benabik: you're going to juggle a thesis too?
14:20 dukeleto novabyte: what is your thesis topic?
14:20 dukeleto benabik: which projects are you interested in? You can of course propose your own, but we have lots of ideas on our wiki page
14:21 dukeleto aloha, gsoc ideas?
14:21 aloha dukeleto: Sorry, I don't know.
14:21 benabik novabyte: Probably going to start on my thesis next year.
14:21 benabik My real hope is to create a parser library or generator that can make P6 style grammars but notice if you do stupid things like recursion it can't handle or mis-spell rules.  NQP is not newbie-friendly in that regard.
14:21 dukeleto aloha, gsoc ideas is http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/GSoc2011
14:21 aloha dukeleto: Okay.
14:22 dukeleto benabik: interesting
14:22 novabyte dukeleto: I've four possible titles, although I think two are "solutions searching for problems" these days... and one is a straightforward implementation project
14:23 benabik dukeleto: That's probably going to take bit longer than GSoC...  Was interested in doing a (LA)LR generator at least.
14:23 novabyte dukeleto: "Superoptimization using Answer Set Programming (draft title)"
14:24 novabyte dukeleto: "A compiler framework for Helper Threading (draft title)"
14:24 novabyte dukeleto: "An Oberon-2 Compiler with the LLVM (draft title)"
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14:25 novabyte dukeleto: and the last one is some sort of project work involving the Parrot VM rewrite Lorito (or M0)
14:27 whiteknight novabyte: I was a GSoC student when I was still a master's student
14:27 benabik dukeleto: My prof. last quarter created a LR parser in a weekend using Javascript. I'm hoping a full summer is more than enough for me to do something similar via NQP/Winxed.
14:27 whiteknight I did GSoC over the summer, then finished my thesis the next semester
14:28 novabyte whiteknight: I do part-time web application development work already... it pays the bills :)
14:28 whiteknight novabyte: Ah, gotcha. I was "unemployed" that summer, except for GSoC
14:28 novabyte whiteknight: i think juggling the three would be too challenging.
14:29 whiteknight yes, I would recommend against it
14:29 whiteknight unless somehow you were getting school credit for one of them
14:29 novabyte benabik: javascript is a nice language for parser generators, http://javascript.crockford.com/tdop/tdop.html
14:29 novabyte whiteknight: exactly ;)
14:30 NotFound whiteknight: you can do some conditional compiling in Winxed using if with a constant condition.
14:31 dukeleto novabyte: you should plan on spending 20 hours a week on gsoc stuff, at least
14:32 novabyte dukeleto: it's like a part-time job. it'd add up to two part-time jobs and a thesis...
14:33 benabik novabyte: My friend did a full-time job and a thesis...  Only took him an extra year or two.  :-/
14:34 novabyte benabik: it's a masters thesis, I only have (approx) 6 months.
14:34 benabik novabyte: Although some of that was taken up by the switch from "You can use algorithm X for Y" do "Algorithm X can't do Y".
14:35 benabik novabyte: His was a master's as well...  My school gives a few years to complete, IIRC, although you have to figure out what to do with yourself once you've finished the coursework.
14:35 novabyte benabik: ah ok, it's only one year for me.
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14:36 whiteknight NotFound: winxed automatically optimized out branches which are impossible to take?
14:38 NotFound whiteknight: yes, if the condition is recognized as a compile time evaluable constant.
14:39 NotFound The branch must pass the parse phase, though.
14:39 whiteknight okay
14:42 NotFound BTW, it's one of the very few things mentioned in the FAQ ;)
14:43 whiteknight I stopped reading the winxed documentation. It rarely answers my questions
14:46 NotFound As Leonard Cohen said in other context, I'm your "man"
14:49 benabik Winxed looks interesting, but it seems a little documentation-lite.
14:53 NotFound benabik: yes, but for a now its target is people used to parrot and with programming experience, so is not a bif obstacle as may seem.
14:53 NotFound s/bif/big
14:57 benabik NotFound: I will admit, it looks interesting.  Seems to be aiming for a C-like niche for Parrot?  Close to the "machine" but actually friendly to us poor humans.
15:00 NotFound benabik: yes, in some way winxed tries to be to pir as C is to assembler.
15:02 whiteknight what I like about winxed is that it's very low level and doesn't attempt to hide any bits of the underlying machine from you
15:02 whiteknight basically, it's a systems-level language for Parrot with no other presumptions
15:02 benabik NotFound: Is your github repo kept up to date, or should I just git-svn from code.google?
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15:03 NotFound benabik: not, that was just an early test of migration, not updated.
15:04 NotFound I've not used git-svn, but I suppose it works.
15:04 benabik NotFound: Fair enough.  I just had hoped to skip waiting for git-svn to read 800+ revisions.
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15:05 benabik NotFound: It works, mostly.  It can get confused, but less so now than it used to.  Still not as fast as I'd like, but c'est la vie.
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15:21 tadzik hello parrot
15:25 dalek Rosella: 5ce5032 | Whiteknight++ | CREDITS:
15:25 dalek Rosella: update CREDITS, on request from the image author
15:26 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/5ce5032e1d
15:26 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 3a6976d | Whiteknight++ | index.html:
15:26 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: fix attribution at the request of the author
15:26 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/3a6976dfb3
15:26 whiteknight hello tadzik
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16:52 whiteknight I think Google announces GSoC mentoring organizations on the 18th
16:52 whiteknight the wait is killing me
16:54 tadzik (:
16:54 tadzik oh come on
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17:00 cotto_work ~~
17:01 tadzik hello
17:01 davidfetter oh hai
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17:18 benabik lunch &
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18:33 dukeleto ~~
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19:46 allison TimToady/pmichaud: I can actually make it to sixperl today, is it on?
19:50 dalek winxed: r862 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
19:50 dalek winxed: refactor function parameters and avoid emiting an unuseful annotation at
19:50 dalek winxed: function body start
19:50 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=862
19:50 dalek winxed: r863 | NotFound++ | trunk/ (3 files):
19:50 dalek winxed: update installable files
19:50 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=863
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21:09 dalek parrot: 1868a49 | nwellnhof++ | src/pmc/socket.pmc:
21:09 dalek parrot: Return 0 in socket code for compatibility
21:09 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/1868a4978c
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22:24 bacek_at_work ~~
22:24 bacek_at_work Coke, thank for planet
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22:45 whiteknight bacek++
22:45 whiteknight bacek++
22:54 whiteknight also, bacek++
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23:53 whiteknight plobsing: ping
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