Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-03-28

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 whiteknight bbatha: what do you mean, the performance of a bytecode translator?
00:00 bbatha whiteknight: yes
00:00 whiteknight bbatha: I don't know how different the performance would be in translation. At the best case, you could use a translation table
00:01 whiteknight bbatha: if performance is too bad, you could use an "ahead of time" compiler, instead of a "Just in time" translator
00:02 whiteknight separate out the translation time from the runtime
00:03 benabik whiteknight: There's some distinct conceptual mismatch between the JVM and Parrot. Can handle some of it with clever register allocation, probably.  AOT instead of JIT would help, yes.  But it's probably easier to optimize compiling Java than JVM bytecode.
00:04 whiteknight benabik: A translator that "parsed" java bytecode and outputs PAST would be great, because then we could use our own tree-optimization tools
00:05 plobsing left #parrot
00:05 benabik whiteknight: I'm not sure that would be as simple as it sounds.  Interesting idea though...
00:05 benabik Maybe I'll write it up.  Are GSoC students only supposed to submit one proposal?  :-)
00:05 whiteknight i don't think it sounds simple :)
00:05 bubaflub benabik: nope, multiple proposals are ok
00:06 whiteknight benabik: Write up multiple options in your proposal on Gist. We will help you pick the best option
00:06 whiteknight benabik: Multiple separate proposals are fine too
00:06 benabik I'll have to finish this review quickly so I can spare some cycles for writing proposals.
00:07 whiteknight okay. I'll wait until you post some updates before I start making comments
00:08 benabik Commentary ahead of time will be noted.  :-)  Had a couple social obligations this weekend...  Forgot I need to write up a proposal for GSoC instead of just filling out an application.  :-(
00:08 whiteknight yes, the proposal is extremely important
00:09 whiteknight There was a guy in here a few days ago who was working on java, but wanted to look for parrot options
00:09 whiteknight I can't remember his username
00:10 benabik I don't mind writing proposals.  Good practice, even.  I just failed to allocate time for it.  Eh.  There's this task that has hours and hours assigned to it.  "Sleep."  Don't think it needs that much time...  ;-)
00:11 whiteknight :)
00:12 bbatha whiteknight: so about the javabyte code interpreter how useful this be in relation to a Java to PAST compiler? should I put in two proposals?
00:14 whiteknight two proposals or one big proposal with options are both good. you can pick
00:14 bbatha thanks
00:14 whiteknight we will make comments on gist to help you decide and make a final proposal
00:16 lucian left #parrot
00:16 sorear dukeleto: if you're going to shut down dalek, you should also shut down parrot-tickets@
00:17 sorear dukeleto: the email spam is far worse than the IRC spam
00:19 sorear dukeleto: Infinoid is no longer involved with dalek; do not make patches against Infinoid's github repository because it's quite out of date
00:20 soh_cah_toa i've started up a rough draft of my debugger proposal:
00:20 soh_cah_toa https://gist.github.com/889795
00:20 bubaflub whiteknight: is there any other example code that uses Ptr, PtrBuf, and PtrObj?
00:28 bbatha whiteknight:
00:28 bbatha woops sorry
00:33 soh_cah_toa whiteknight: i've started my proposal. take a look - https://gist.github.com/889795
00:41 plobsing joined #parrot
00:47 whiteknight soh_cah_toa++
00:47 whiteknight bubaflub: I use PtrObj on my imcc_compreg_pmc branch, but that's only one use
00:48 soh_cah_toa whiteknight: not quite what that means
00:48 soh_cah_toa *not quite sure
00:48 theory left #parrot
00:48 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: that's karma. More ++ means you're doing good things
00:48 whiteknight karma soh_cah_toa
00:48 aloha soh_cah_toa has karma of 3.
00:48 whiteknight soh_cah_toa++
00:48 whiteknight karma soh_cah_toa
00:48 aloha soh_cah_toa has karma of 4.
00:48 whiteknight every time you do something good, you get a +
00:48 whiteknight ++
00:48 soh_cah_toa ha! that's pretty neat
00:49 whiteknight 10,000 of them, and we'll send you some cookies
00:49 bacek_at_work ~~
00:49 bacek_at_work karma whiteknight
00:49 aloha whiteknight has karma of 980.
00:49 whiteknight karma bacek
00:49 aloha bacek has karma of 1419.
00:49 bacek_at_work whiteknight, you should work harder for free cookies :)
00:49 whiteknight damn. I'm falling behind!
00:50 whiteknight bacek_at_work: I think I'm the one who has to bake the cookies
00:50 soh_cah_toa has anyone actually reached 10,000?
00:51 sorear I probably would have, if karma bots had a half-life longer than 1 year
00:51 plobsing bubaflub: your gist from a while back has a logic error. $I0 = defined mpz_init; unless $I0, mpz_init_function
00:51 plobsing unless should be if
00:51 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: no. It's probably impossible
00:51 sorear karma sorear
00:51 aloha sorear has karma of 959.
00:51 plobsing karma plobsing
00:51 aloha plobsing has karma of 631.
00:51 plobsing ouch
00:51 soh_cah_toa i'm guessing the smart match operator takes away karma?
00:51 sorear + 3000 or so on lambdabot, + a lot on buubot, + purl, + phenny
00:51 plobsing I'm not even on the same level
00:52 sorear plobsing: I hacked dalek to regularly ++ me on #perl6
00:52 plobsing lol
00:53 bacek_at_work perl6: say "sorear++ :)"
00:53 bacek_at_work rakudo: say "sorear++ :)"
00:53 p6eval pugs, rakudo 792e86, niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«sorear++ :)␤»
00:53 p6eval rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«sorear++ :)␤»
00:53 bacek_at_work karma sorear
00:53 aloha sorear has karma of 963.
00:54 bacek_at_work works like a charm :)
00:54 benabik p6eval's smart enough to only show output once if it matches?  Nice.
00:55 bubaflub plobsing: you're right... now the question is why i can't find a mpz_init function
00:56 sorear perl6: my $x = 1; my $y := $x; $x := 2; say $y; say "sorear" ~ "++";
00:56 p6eval pugs, niecza v3-82-g1dc43eb: OUTPUT«1␤sorear++␤»
00:56 p6eval ..rakudo 792e86: OUTPUT«2␤sorear++␤»
00:56 plobsing bubaflub: I did some debugging. your check for library loaded status is also backwards
00:56 sorear benabik: if and only if!
00:57 plobsing on my platform (arch linux), you want to use 'libgmp' for the library, and '__gmpz_init' for the function
00:57 benabik sorear: Even better.
00:57 plobsing seems libgmp uses macros and disguises function names for reasons that are beyond my comprehension
00:57 contingencyplan left #parrot
00:58 whiteknight awesome. This GMP project just got 10x more interesting
00:58 whiteknight bubaflub is going to be regretting this project decision :)
00:59 benabik If a grad student ever takes on a project he doesn't regret in some way, he didn't take on a complex enough project.  :-D
01:00 whiteknight Okay, I'll agree to that
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01:02 bubaflub plobsing: ok, great, i think it's working now
01:02 plobsing think being the operative word?
01:02 plobsing what is wrong with libgmp? why do they do that function hiding?
01:02 bubaflub plobsing: the init function is calling, i'm going to try to get some basic arithmetic
01:04 soh_cah_toa so how many student slots does google usually give the parrot foundation each year?
01:05 whiteknight parrot foundation has never done GSoC by itself
01:05 whiteknight last year we were with TPF, and we got about 15 slots combined, I think
01:05 whiteknight or maybe 12
01:05 soh_cah_toa right, i remember someone mentioning that
01:05 whiteknight last year I think Parrot had 4 or 5 as part of the deal
01:05 whiteknight I am hoping Parrot gets at least 6 this year
01:06 whiteknight I would like more, but less than 6 would not be good
01:06 soh_cah_toa can the parrot foundation request more if you think you need it or is google's word final?
01:07 whiteknight it's a process. We make a request, then we get an initial allocation
01:07 whiteknight the final allocation is based on the proposals everybody gets
01:07 whiteknight some organizations have extra slots, so those get redistributed
01:08 soh_cah_toa interesting
01:09 dalek parrot: d0f90dd | bacek++ | lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/ (3 files):
01:09 dalek parrot: Get rig of old, outdated, not supportted MMD stuff in pmc2c
01:09 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/d0f90ddbe1
01:10 benabik Code is like a rosebush.  It flowers all the better for careful pruning.  :-)
01:10 soh_cah_toa :)
01:12 kid51 Ah! Looks like bacek has responded to my cage cleaning :-)
01:13 bubaflub plobsing: i'm not seeing __mpz_init anywhere in the GMP code base
01:13 plobsing *g*mpz
01:13 plobsing bubaflub: use nm to locate the function names
01:14 soh_cah_toa whiteknight: suppose my proposal gets accepted...is they're anything i could work on in the meantime that would help me familiarize myself w/ parrot?
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01:14 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: start reading through the parrot source code, especially code relating to runcores and debugging
01:14 whiteknight src/runcore/*, src/debug.c, etc
01:15 whiteknight as you go through the code, start making fixes: Documentation fixes, code cleanups, small fixes, refactors, etc
01:15 whiteknight submit patches
01:15 whiteknight that's the best advice I can give you
01:16 bacek_at_work kid51, :)
01:16 whiteknight also, do the same thing with the Parrot-Instrument code too, if you're planning to use that
01:16 whiteknight read the code, make fixes, submit patches
01:16 bacek_at_work whiteknight, you forgot about "step 3"!!!
01:16 soh_cah_toa i was actually gonna ask that: since i'm going through nearly all the documentation i think it'd be a good time to fix errors. i've already noticed a few grammer errors. i could fix them?
01:16 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: yes
01:16 whiteknight every time you fix an error, it proves to us that you are reading the material
01:17 whiteknight that's good for you
01:17 whiteknight IF you find things that are confusing to you, as a new user, fix it
01:17 soh_cah_toa yeah, good idea
01:17 whiteknight you're the test case, you are the new user. If you find something confusing, other new users will find it confusing too
01:18 whiteknight so, fix it
01:18 benabik I'm going to try to find some more parroty things to contribute to, but packing grad classes into 10 weeks doesn't leave a lot of free time.
01:18 soh_cah_toa so i'm the guinea pig
01:18 whiteknight create a fork of Parrot on github, make commits, and open pull requests
01:18 kid51 "is they're anything i could work on in the meantime that would help me familiarize myself w/ parrot?" -- I wish *all* GSOC candidates had that attitude!
01:18 kid51 soh_cah_toa++
01:18 whiteknight soh_cah_toa++ indeed
01:19 soh_cah_toa ha! thanks
01:19 whiteknight benabik: do your best. You don't need to be superman, but we do like to see that you're reading and understanding the code
01:19 whiteknight benabik: if you can't make fixes, ask questions about things you are reading
01:20 soh_cah_toa benabik: try doing what i did - use pod2html to convert all parrot docs, put them on your phone, read them on the go!
01:20 benabik whiteknight: Thanks.  I should probably try to take what I learned working on cish and  put it back into the Squaak tutorial or something.  :-)
01:20 whiteknight benabik: that would be *perfect*
01:20 whiteknight that damn tutorial is always out of date
01:21 benabik soh_cah_toa: I already crash-dived into the parrot docs.  https://github.com/benabik/cish
01:22 benabik soh_cah_toa: If you want help understanding PAST, I wrote up everything I could learn in two weeks of little more than poking NQP in that doc.  :-)
01:22 soh_cah_toa benabik: wow, have you done gsoc w/ parrot before? that's pretty good
01:22 whiteknight benabik: oh awesome, I want to look at that
01:22 benabik soh_cah_toa: No, that was for a project for school.
01:23 benabik soh_cah_toa: I may have gone a little overboard with it, since it was supposed to just be a quick intro to a compiler tool.
01:23 soh_cah_toa benabik: parrot school project? i wish i went to your school
01:23 benabik soh_cah_toa: Part of a compiler class.  "Find a compiler-writing tool and explain it to the class."
01:24 benabik Hm.  I wonder if I ever put my slides online.
01:24 soh_cah_toa benabik: please do so :)
01:24 whiteknight I would love to see slides
01:24 benabik Ah.  I did.  http://www.cs.rit.edu/~bcg2784/Co​urses/20102/Compiler/PCT/PCT.pdf
01:25 benabik There are some errors in the slides that were corrected on github thanks to...  dukeleto++, IIRC
01:25 benabik And some of the slides assume you know the context from the class.  :-/
01:25 soh_cah_toa benabik: parrot magic cookies...ha!
01:25 bbatha left #parrot
01:26 benabik soh_cah_toa: I think that was the actual original name.  I picked it up either from the first time I heard about Parrot or some outdated documentation I found.
01:27 soh_cah_toa benabik: how old is that presentation?
01:27 benabik soh_cah_toa: Last quarter...  Uh, two months?
01:28 soh_cah_toa benabik: i'm bookmarking this for sure. please tell me you got an a on this
01:29 benabik soh_cah_toa: The prof liked it, I think.  I asked if he'd be willing to recommend me for a TA position and he was talking about recommendations for my PhD.  :-D
01:29 soh_cah_toa benabik: ohh...i'm so jealous of you. :)
01:30 benabik soh_cah_toa: I get over-involved in side projects.  Now if I can just figure out a Master's thesis.  :-D
01:31 soh_cah_toa benabik: i heard that can be rough
01:32 benabik soh_cah_toa: Only took my friend an extra year and a half.  Of course, he disproved his original thesis half-way through.
01:32 soh_cah_toa benabik: ouch!
01:34 bubaflub plobsing: pardon my ignorance, but i'm reading up on nm - how do i figure out the names of the functions?  do i pass it in libgmp?
01:35 plobsing bubaflub: use "nm /usr/lib/libgmp.so" or whatever path you have libgmp under
01:35 bubaflub plobsing: great, thanks
01:35 plobsing grep for the symbols you are interested in
01:36 plobsing my dynamic libs are stripped, so I use libgmp.a in stead
01:37 plobsing but the symbol names are the same
01:37 bubaflub plobsing: ok.  i wonder why they do this renaming magic
01:37 bubaflub because the functions in the manual are definitely normal i.e. mpz_init() and not __init_mpz()
01:37 bubaflub i could also look at Math::GMPz which are perl 5 bindings of what i want
01:37 plobsing exactly. I suspect they have a screw loose or something.
01:38 benabik __init_mpz might be an internal function called by mpz_init or something.  :-/
01:38 bbatha joined #parrot
01:39 benabik Math::GMPz is using Rmpz_init()
01:40 benabik I imagine the R is something from the loader?
01:41 bubaflub no, i think it's just Sysphius' naming scheme for his methods
01:43 benabik Ah. He uses XS...  And it just uses mpz_init() as well.  Odd.
01:45 plobsing benabik: not odd at all. xs translates down to C. so if there is macro magic, it is visible to XS.
01:45 plobsing the down side is that you have to have a C compiler available to make the XS usable
01:46 benabik plobsing: True, true.
01:47 benabik Wow.  Yes.  gmp.h is full of #defines.
01:47 benabik #define mpz_init __gmpz_init, #define mpz_init2 __gmpz_init2, etc
01:47 bubaflub so these macros are renaming the functions
01:47 bubaflub D'OH
01:48 benabik I highly recommend looking through /usr/include/gmp.h (or wherever it's found on your system) and looking at the #defines.
01:49 bubaflub benabik: i'm there. yeah, it's a bit of a jungle
01:50 benabik bubaflub: Looks like it's mostly a straight forward set of renaming.  I'm sure they had a good reason for it at the time.
01:50 bubaflub benabik: it's suppose to be backwards compatible back to version 3 or something
01:51 bubaflub perhaps that's it
01:51 benabik bubaflub: They originally had horrible names, so they just smoothed it over with the preprocessor? I could buy that.
01:51 bubaflub haha
01:52 plobsing benabik: but who would use __-prefix for all function names in the first place?
01:52 benabik plobsing: I said horrible, didn't I?
01:55 bubaflub well, when i'm done with em they'll be pretty
01:55 benabik bubaflub++ # pretty functions
01:56 plobsing bubaflub: you may want to have a look at the ncidef2pir tool
01:57 bubaflub plobsing: thanks for all the help!
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04:19 dalek parrot: 519f10d | petdance++ | / (2 files):
04:19 dalek parrot: Fixing splint flags re: nulls
04:19 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/519f10d03e
04:19 dalek parrot: a0b2f6d | petdance++ | / (2 files):
04:19 dalek parrot: return_sig is ARGOUT, not ARGMOD
04:19 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a0b2f6d860
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 77d0dcf | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/ (3 files):
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Dequote strings during parsing
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/77d0dcf77a
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 5deb7b5 | bacek++ | runtime/parrot/library/LLVM/Builder.pm:
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Fix copy-paster error in Builder.inbounds_gep.
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/5deb7b5278
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: eedef4e | bacek++ | / (2 files):
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Fix generating SCONST. They aren't cstrings apparently
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/eedef4eb87
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 6537caa | bacek++ | t/compilers/opsc/data/0 (5 files):
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Readd test pir files
04:23 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/6537caa5e0
04:24 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 8a041c8 | bacek++ | t/jit/jitted.ops:
04:24 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Temporary remove "if" for unblock testing.
04:24 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/8a041c869a
04:30 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 9671e11 | bacek++ | / (2 files):
04:30 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Suppress debug output when not requested.
04:30 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/9671e11160
04:33 bacek_at_work Ho-ho-ho
04:33 bacek_at_work JITting of few ops in once!
04:33 bacek_at_work http://nopaste.snit.ch/38891
04:36 benabik I'm not entirely sure what's happening there, but it seems impressive.
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04:37 bacek_at_work benabik, loading PBC, generate native function for Sub, call it.
04:37 bacek_at_work "jit prototype"
04:38 benabik I get what it's doing, but not what it's doing.  Probably shouldn't be reading it just before bed.  :-D
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04:42 benabik Ah.  Now I see how the parts all fit together.  Now I just don't quite know what all the parts are.  And don't try to explain, I should sleep.  :-D
04:42 benabik The more I look at it, the better it looks.  bacek++
04:44 bacek_at_work benabik, many parts are explained in my blog (http://blog.bacek.com) :)
04:45 benabik bacek_at_work: I'll mark that as "read in my copious spare time".  :-D
04:46 benabik Huh.  I was following planetsix but not planet parrot.  Bad Benabik.
04:53 theory joined #parrot
04:56 dalek parrot: 36602ce | petdance++ | src/dynext.c:
04:56 dalek parrot: allow some STRING * to be NULLOK
04:56 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/36602ce119
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05:21 dalek parrot: ba65aef | petdance++ | src/debug.c:
05:21 dalek parrot: Properly added headerizer annotations.  Consted some vars.
05:21 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/ba65aef8b0
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05:27 dalek parrot: 1eb416d | plobsing++ | / (9 files):
05:27 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'kill-pkg-config'
05:27 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/1eb416dcda
05:27 dalek parrot: f987b92 | plobsing++ | api.yaml:
05:27 dalek parrot: remove pkg-config deprecation notice (completed)
05:27 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f987b92b44
05:34 dalek tracwiki: v1 | plobsing++ | ParrotDeprecationsFor3.3
05:34 dalek tracwiki: Add upgrade instructions for pkg-config deprecation.
05:34 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotDe​precationsFor3.3?version=1&action=diff
05:34 dalek tracwiki: v31 | plobsing++ | ParrotDeprecations
05:34 dalek tracwiki: Add notice regarding pkg-config deprecation
05:34 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Parro​tDeprecations?version=31&action=diff
05:34 dalek TT #1853 closed by plobsing++: pkg-config support
05:34 dalek TT #1853: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1853
05:34 dalek TT #1842 closed by plobsing++: Linking against libparrot not as documented
05:34 dalek TT #1842: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1842
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06:18 dalek parrot: 137d5dc | mikehh++ | MANIFEST (2 files):
06:18 dalek parrot: re-generate MANIFEST and MANIFEST.SKIP
06:18 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/137d5dce5e
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07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: ea057fe | bacek++ | runtime/parrot/library/LLVM/Constant.pm:
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Fix LLVM::Constant signatures.
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/ea057febc7
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 65a47cb | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/JIT.pm:
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Load constants once
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/65a47cb3e2
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: b80df2d | bacek++ | compilers/opsc/src/Ops/JIT.pm:
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Handle NCONSTs
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b80df2d34d
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 392c9fe | bacek++ | t/compilers/opsc/data/03.pir:
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: Add test output of number
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/392c9fed3f
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: 3deba82 | bacek++ | t/jit/jitted.ops:
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: More 'jitted' ops
07:12 dalek parrot/jit_prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/3deba824cc
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11:35 dalek parrot: a49d7b8 | mikehh++ | src/debug.c:
11:35 dalek parrot: add missing c function pod documentation
11:35 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a49d7b89c1
11:35 dalek parrot: 2279298 | mikehh++ | src/debug.c:
11:35 dalek parrot: add missing ASSERT_ARGS
11:35 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/227929804b
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12:33 * Coke would pong whiteknight, but he ain't here!
12:34 moritz Coke: you can tell aloha to pong whiteknight for you :-)
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12:36 Coke that might be slightly too meta.
12:36 * Coke wonders if smolder still needs a restart.
12:36 Coke aloha, restart smolder?
12:36 aloha Coke: No clue. Sorry.
12:36 Coke aloha, smolder restart?
12:36 aloha Coke: Dunno.
12:37 Coke aloha, smolder?
12:37 aloha Coke: smolder is not automatic, but smolder clients can be
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12:39 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#13310) fulltest) at 3_2_0-94-g2279298 - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5)
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12:47 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
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13:00 whiteknight msg Coke when you get a minute, could you please look at TT #1634? I want to see if this is still a problem. nwellnhof didn't see an issue, I want to know if you are still seeing it. Thanks
13:00 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
13:03 whiteknight msg cotto Can you take a look at TT #560? I don't know if this change is going to require a deprecation cycle or not. If not, I can probably fix it pretty quickly.
13:03 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
13:06 dalek TT #1881 closed by whiteknight++: Parrot on Android
13:06 dalek TT #1881: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1881
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13:07 whiteknight msg soh_cah_toa when you get a chance, take a look at https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/987 (You might need special permissions to edit it, just let me know). If you're going to be doing debugger work, all debugger tickets are going to be under your control. We'll talk about it when you get in
13:07 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
13:09 Coke whiteknight: checking now.
13:09 whiteknight Coke++
13:10 Coke (involves rebuilding parrot /and/ rakudo, so will take a moment. ;)
13:10 whiteknight yeah, I figured. thanks for taking the time
13:12 whiteknight Coke: I started working on that TT #1886 bug yesterday. It requires moving a lot of code around. I don't need to write or fix much code, but it's still going to take a while
13:13 whiteknight I would like to get it completed within the next few days
13:14 whiteknight I'm sorry this bug has been taking me so long
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13:31 Coke thanks for trying to fix it.
13:32 whiteknight on the bright side, I get to refactor and cleanup some very messy code in the process. It's win-win
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13:32 whiteknight if it weren't for the low quality of this code, and the driving need to fix it anyway, I might have tried patching partcl-nqp instead to work around the problem
13:35 whiteknight Coke++ # Thanks for closing the ticketg
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13:37 dalek TT #1634 closed by coke++: segfault in Parrot_Class_init_pmc
13:37 dalek TT #1634: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1634
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14:18 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: hi
14:18 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: hi
14:20 whiteknight good morning, rohit_nsit08
14:20 whiteknight I just left more questions on your proposal
14:22 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: :-) was correcting the yesterday's ones , i was going through the rosella/test.pbc ,seemed good , the library is in winxed, in which stage i'll be going to use it ?
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14:22 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: u heard about jspec? it's a javascript testing framework
14:23 whiteknight I have not heard of jspec
14:23 whiteknight if it's popular and you like it, you can use that too
14:24 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: what is Parrot Test , u referred it in one of your blog post
14:24 whiteknight Parrot Test is Rosella test.pbc
14:24 whiteknight it had a different name at first
14:25 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: can u tell me in brief how can we use rosella test.pbc ?
14:27 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: tests are just programs, so you can write them in any language. If your javascript compiler has a way to include bytecode files from Parrot (it would have to be a custom extension for you), you can write tests in JavaScript and include the test.pbc in your files
14:28 whiteknight or you could write tests in a different language, like NQP. Use NQP to load your JavaScript compiler and test it there
14:28 whiteknight that way if your compiler is broken, you can still test pieces of it
14:28 whiteknight When something breaks, tests can help you find the problem
14:29 whiteknight jspec runs on javascript, so it looks like you will need a working compiler (maybe stage-0 node.js or narwhal) to run it
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14:29 * lucian nods
14:29 whiteknight jspec looks nice though, it looks like it has assertions and a form of mock-objects built-in to it
14:29 lucian once you get a mostly-running js, you can test it in js
14:30 whiteknight exactly
14:30 lucian but before it resembles js, it might be better to use something else
14:30 whiteknight so what you could do is have a multi-stage test suite. Write some sanity tests in a different language. When you prove your compiler works for the basic things, move to a different set of tests written in pure JS
14:32 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: testing sounds more complicated than it is
14:32 whiteknight rohit: I can add new features to Rosella to help you too
14:32 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: thanks , for such valuable information , i was confused about how i will mix parrot bytecode and javascript , but if it can be mixed , i will be able to do it
14:32 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: supporting JavaScript to the test harness is very easy
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14:33 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: each test file in your test suite can be written in a different language.
14:33 whiteknight you can pick whatever you think is best for each test
14:34 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: and i can include the bytecode of that language in my existing code and after all gets converted in the PIR  , it won't pose any problem , am i right?
14:34 whiteknight right. Once it's converted to PIR or PBC, everything will work nicely together
14:34 whiteknight if you have a runtime library, you need to include that
14:34 whiteknight but that's a small issue
14:35 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: runtime library as in ?
14:35 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: you will be able to use Winxed and NQP libraries from your JavaScript code, if you add a function to load those in
14:35 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: JavaScript has some built-in functions
14:35 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: your operators will be functions, those are part of your runtime
14:35 whiteknight eval() is a built-in, that needs to be in your runtime library
14:35 whiteknight etc
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14:37 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: lots of homework for me ,will have to know all this before coding begins
14:37 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: It's all easier than it sounds. You just need a little experience with the code
14:38 rohit_nsit08 i think i can load modules in javascript using require() , will it work here?
14:38 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: you will have to make it work, but yes that would be a good thing
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14:40 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: so for now , what i can decide is that  , i should design my testing in 2 stages , first one before stage 0 compiler is running , using rosella test and after getting stage 0 compiler , extend the earlier one or use advanced framework like jspec to work with it , sounds good , will need to plan it out
14:41 whiteknight okay, awesome. That does sound like a good plan. I can add JavaScript support to Rosella if you want to use that. You decide whatever you think is easiest
14:43 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: javascript support in rosella will be the best , i think i should work with u on that , before may 22 , when actual coding begins , to become familiar with testing ,, that will save our time in later stages
14:43 whiteknight okay, great
14:46 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: for documentation , dukeleto suggested markdown , looked simple and great to use ,do we have any other option , my earlier plan was to generate documentation from the commented out code using a available tool in javascript , which one will be a better option ?
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14:46 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: with markdown we have option of exporting to other formats besides html , that is an extra advantage
14:48 whiteknight I use markdown in my blog. It's very easy. Have you looked at ScriptDoc?
14:49 rohit_nsit08 let me have a look
14:49 whiteknight Doxygen might also work with JavaScript
14:50 whiteknight POD is used by a lot of Parrot projects, but it might not work well with JavaScript
14:50 whiteknight (arguably POD does not work well with Parrot's own source code, but I won't fight that battle)
14:50 rohit_nsit08 scriptdoc should work very fine i guess
14:51 rohit_nsit08 having look at doxygon
14:51 whiteknight doxygen is the only real one that I'm familiar with
14:52 whiteknight I found scriptdoc on google. I don't know anything about it
14:52 rohit_nsit08 are u able to access doxygen.org ?
14:53 rohit_nsit08 looking at the google's cached copy
14:53 cotto_work ~~
14:53 whiteknight yeah, I can access it
14:53 whiteknight Rhino appears to use something called JSDoc
14:56 allison TimToady: DWIM for 'patch' http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2011/03/bi​keshed-apply-patch-auto-detect-strip.html
14:57 rohit_nsit08 hmm..lots of option to choose from, i think scriptdoc and jsdoc will be fyn for now, will decide during actual coding by experimenting which one is better
14:57 moritz \o/ I've long waited for that (apply-patch)
14:57 cotto_work allison: coming soon to a distro near me?
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14:57 benabik 'lo, #parrot!
14:57 allison cotto_work: very possibly :)
14:58 cotto_work hio benabik
14:58 moritz please push it to Debian :-)
14:58 dukeleto ~~
14:58 allison moritz: the idea is to push it all the way upstream to patch
14:58 moritz allison: as a separate binary?
14:58 allison moritz: as an option
14:59 whiteknight it should be trivial to add command-line switches to patch to do those behaviors
14:59 whiteknight well, maybe not trivial, but not super hard either
14:59 moritz allison: that works for me too, easy to make it an alias
14:59 moritz so that I don't have to type those options :-)
14:59 whiteknight patch --auto-strip --input=myfile.diff
15:01 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: scriptdoc will require using aptana so , i think for now , jsdoc will be fyn
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15:02 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: okay. Like I said I found it on google
15:02 whiteknight jsdoc is what rhino uses, so it can't be completely bad
15:02 whiteknight unless rhino is completely bad
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15:06 rohit_nsit08 checking out orgs using jsdoc
15:07 whiteknight rohit_nsit08++
15:08 rohit_nsit08 this one looks nice , it's using jsdoc http://developer.myspace.com/community​/myspace/myopenspace.aspx#MyOpenSpace.MySpaceContainer
15:09 whiteknight that is nice
15:09 rohit_nsit08 hm.. for now lets keep jsdoc , will see if better options are avaiable later :-)
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15:12 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: sounds fine to me
15:13 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: we also need some kind of test framework that doesn't requires a DOM/browser, i.e. js tests that we can run from the command-line
15:14 moritz shouldn't be too hard to implement a TAP library in JS
15:14 moritz then you can reuse the Perl harness
15:14 moritz and everybody is happy, because that's what parrot uses too
15:15 whiteknight dukeleto: We've already talked about test frameworks. He's thinking Rosella, at least for the bootstrappy parts
15:15 whiteknight after that, maybe rosella or jspec
15:15 moritz http://testanything.org/wiki/ind​ex.php/TAP_Producers#Javascript
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15:17 dukeleto whiteknight: i see you are recruiting for Rosella ;) Works for me.
15:17 whiteknight dukeleto: Don't need to recruit. It's a good option, especially for the bootstrappy parts
15:17 dukeleto whiteknight: yes, the mocking stuff will be very useful
15:17 whiteknight plus, it happens to be well documented, and there are plenty of code examples
15:18 dukeleto whiteknight: i remember reading it, but how are Parrot-Test and Rosella related?
15:18 whiteknight jspec looks like it has mocks too. Now that I think about it, mocks must be extremely easy to put together in JS
15:18 whiteknight dukeleto: Parrot-Test was the old name
15:18 whiteknight got renamed to Rosella
15:18 dukeleto whiteknight: now I understand, thanks
15:18 dukeleto awesome. This GSoC project will build on lots of great previous work, which is a good sign
15:19 tadzik oh, applications start today, don't they?
15:19 whiteknight yes, it is great when we can start reusing lots of code, building on the shoulders of giants, etc
15:19 whiteknight tadzik: I think so, but several students have already started posting drafts on gist for review
15:19 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: that's what we call , open source :-)
15:19 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: yes :)
15:20 whiteknight The best part about a project like JavaScript compiler is that we can start using tools from the javascript community too
15:20 whiteknight that's the real power
15:21 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: ya javascript is a wonderful language , to code in , as they say "everything is object oriented "
15:21 * moritz got "Javascript - The Good Parts" yesterday
15:22 moritz rohit_nsit08: by the way it's usual not to put spaces before , and closing "  (nothing huge, just weird style :-)
15:23 rohit_nsit08 moritz: sorry , :-) didn't noticed while typing
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15:35 bubaflub dukeleto, whiteknight et. al: here's my GSoC proposal for GMP bindings: https://gist.github.com/890669
15:35 whiteknight bubaflub++
15:35 bubaflub i'll hit up the email list as well
15:36 whiteknight I'll start looking it over now and making comments
15:36 whiteknight I hope you have thick skin :)
15:38 bubaflub whiteknight: yeah, please tear it apart
15:39 bubaflub whiteknight: the timeline is definitely the weakest... no idea how long it'll take to do these things
15:39 moritz bubaflub: that's normal
15:39 whiteknight bubaflub: it's okay, all students seem to be having trouble making a detailed timeline
15:39 rohit_nsit08 me too , working on it
15:39 moritz bubaflub: some lines are wider than the window, wrapping them would help readability</tiny nit>
15:40 bubaflub moritz: ah, yeah, it wrapped when i was writing it... i'll fix that real quick
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15:41 moritz bubaflub: I like that proposal. I'd love to see some few examples of using GMP from an HLL early-ish in the timeline
15:42 moritz (unless I missed it, and it's there already :-)
15:42 bubaflub moritz: ok. i know i can call raw PIR from NQP but there is probably a classier way of doing it
15:42 moritz since HLLs are our ultimate users, focusing on them first is probably insightful
15:43 bubaflub moritz: any HLLs to recommend? i'm only familiar with cardinal and a little bit of Perl6
15:44 moritz bubaflub: I don't think you need to settle on one for the proposal yet, just that you'll do it
15:45 moritz rakudo, cardinal, winxed, partcl-nqp and lua might be worth looking at
15:46 bubaflub moritz: okey dokey
15:47 shell i like ruby very much
15:47 shell it's fancy
15:48 shell i think it would be a good choice
15:49 moritz fancyness really doesn't matter for such a demo
15:53 bubaflub whiteknight: good feedback, i'll do some edits to address these
15:55 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: pls check if i'm correct - in second stage , when stage 1 compiler is stable and running on parrot , it'll be having JSON AST at that time , and i'll have to transform that into PAST objects , which will allow us to use optimizations available in parrot already.
15:56 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: the deciding factor to move to stage 2 should be based on some benchmarks , we'll set in our test suite  , basically i'll have to ensure that it's stable and running and can compile it's own source
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16:04 bubaflub whiteknight: i'm more familiar with PIR and Test::More - do you think i should go the rosella route instead?
16:04 bubaflub if you say yes, you'll be getting pestered by me a lot...
16:08 whiteknight bubaflub: go with whatever you are comfortable with
16:08 bubaflub whiteknight: i was thinking of doing all this at the PIR level, or at least all of the guts and unit tests at that level
16:10 bubaflub whiteknight: i'll investigate parsing the header file to get the NCI def file faster but there is #define silliness all over the source so mpz_init() is actually __init_mpz()
16:10 whiteknight bubaflub: if they consistently use #define, you might be able to set up a quick perl script to extract and mangle those
16:11 bubaflub whiteknight: that's what i'm hoping.  probably one pass to get all function names, another pass to pull in the function signatures
16:12 Coke hurm. mentor profiles from previous years not accessible?
16:13 whiteknight Coke: some stuff is missing from the new UI design by accident
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16:14 whiteknight Coke: I can think of a million better times for them to have launched such a massive overhaul of the site. At the critical beginning points of GSoC does not seem like a good time to me
16:14 whiteknight bubaflub: writing everything in PIR is fine too, if that's what you really really want
16:15 bubaflub whiteknight: when you put it that way i'm not sure what i really want... most of my work has been in PIR but i'm open to other suggestions
16:15 bubaflub whiteknight: i suppose anything that compiles down to pbc would work, right?
16:16 whiteknight bubaflub: don't worry about it, I'm not trying to scare you. Whatever you want will work
16:16 whiteknight if you know PIR and are a whiz at it, do that
16:16 bubaflub /me runs away scared
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16:16 rohit_nsit08 sorry , connection got lost
16:17 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: PAST are parrot objects. So to create PAST, you need to have a JavaScript compiler that is already running on Parrot
16:18 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: so determining whether to work with PAST means we have to determine if we have a JavaScript compiler running on Parrot already, or not
16:19 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: so if your stage-1 takes too much time, or if there are roadblocks, or if you are having trouble, you might want to abandon thinking about stage-2
16:19 * Coke takes this opportunity to change his mention email address from gmail to <hosted account>
16:19 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: yes, and after stage1 (if finished) ,we'll be having a javascript compiler running on parrot ,
16:19 Coke s/mention/mentor/
16:20 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: yes. So, if you finish stage-1 *early*, you will have good time for other things like stage-2. If you finish stage-1 *late*, you might not have time for it
16:20 bubaflub whiteknight: as for the wrapper class, dukeleto mentioned that it might actually be slow
16:20 whiteknight bubaflub: what might be slow?
16:20 bubaflub whiteknight: but i'm not sure what my alternative would be
16:21 bubaflub whiteknight: i was thinking it would be better to have an opaque pointer to the GMP C object rather than have a struct where we can access GMP guts
16:21 whiteknight bubaflub: yes, I think opaque pointers are the way to go in this case
16:21 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: my current deadline for stage1 which i have set for myself is  22 july , one month before final deadline ,will try best to stick on it
16:21 whiteknight the BigInt and BigNum types in Parrot do exactly that
16:21 whiteknight rohit: Okay, so if your stage-1 compiler works, has tests, and passes all tests by that deadline, you move on to stage-2
16:22 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: if you do not meet that deadline, you won't have enough time, maybe you move to something else
16:22 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: so shall i include PAST in the project details or mention it in some other heading
16:22 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: Yes, mention it in the timeline, but include information about the deadline. You only do PAST if stage-1 is working on schedule
16:22 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: if not, include a backup plan. Pick other, smaller, features to work on instead
16:23 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: We want you to complete as much as you can, and write as much good code as you can in the summer
16:23 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: We do not want you to have things which are not complete at the end
16:24 NotFound I think that a lot of possible optimizations should be better done in your own AST, before emiting PAST ot whatever.
16:24 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: okay , i'm including in the later stage of the timeline with a backup strategy if things start getting wrong , we'll go back to stage 1 to improve it further
16:24 whiteknight okay, awesome
16:25 lucian rohit_nsit08: mostly guessing, but PAST isn't customised for JS and may not map well
16:25 lucian if i were you, i'd stick to JS ASTs forever
16:25 whiteknight lucian: don't confuse him! We can improve PAST if there are problems with mapping
16:25 lucian PAST might be useful for codegen, but i'm not sure
16:25 whiteknight I suspect the mapping issues won't be too bad
16:25 whiteknight that's why I want PAST, for the optimizer framework and the codegen POST backends
16:26 lucian is the optimiser framework pertinent for JS? i don't know
16:26 NotFound Stage 1 is the first? We usually use zero.
16:26 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: also, when you get a chance, look at https://github.com/parrot/parrot/blob​/master/docs/pdds/draft/pdd31_hll.pod
16:26 rohit_nsit08 lucian: thanks :-), i'll go through PAST side by side , so that when second stage starts , i'll know whether i'm ready to implement it or not
16:27 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: if you have a compiler object for JavaScript, you can load in JavaScript from other languages
16:27 lucian rohit_nsit08: i don't know, maybe past will be useful. but since you're starting with a js env, a JS AST has to exist anyway
16:27 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: that's another thing to keep in mind for your project, working with other languages might be a nice way to fill time
16:28 whiteknight lucian: it depends on the parser he's using. It's probably not too hard to either map from his AST to PAST, or to modify the parser to produce PAST directly
16:28 NotFound whiteknight: and with host applications, which is how javascript is used most times.
16:28 whiteknight it's exploratory
16:28 whiteknight NotFound: exactly
16:28 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: i'm free for this summer , so will get some good time for side study and experimentation , i want this project to be a successfull one
16:29 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: Awesome! We want it to be successful too!
16:29 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: you also need to think about a fancy name. "ECMAScript" is an ugly name
16:29 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: fancy names are important :)
16:29 NotFound For example, a text editor that can handle the document using the dom just like inside the browser mat be great.
16:30 lucian whiteknight: QuackScript
16:30 whiteknight NotFound: Yes. But that would require a document parser and a DOM library. Those might not be available at first
16:30 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: thanks :-) , (will go through some name related to parrots :-)  ) i think my second version of proposal is almost ready , i'll upload it in few minutes to have more feedback from community
16:30 lucian NotFound: there's a few around :)
16:30 NotFound whiteknight: even without parsing, just for creating, will be useful.
16:30 whiteknight rohit_nsit08++
16:31 whiteknight NotFound: yes. I think that may be hard in the GSoC summer though
16:31 NotFound lucian: but they aren't parrot based.
16:31 lucian NotFound: i think elisp might be a better target for that, though
16:31 lucian the js editors are very immature
16:31 NotFound Maybe elisp ones are toooo mature ;)
16:32 rohit_nsit08 i noticed , all the other projects are related to parrots ,p.s. whenever i search on google about a project name , i see lots of parrots loll
16:32 NotFound Trying to beat emacs might be suicidal :D
16:32 lucian NotFound: not beat it, reimplement a small part of it :)
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16:33 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: yes, we're not always very creative. We search for parrots on wikipedia and use whatever pops up as the next project name
16:33 NotFound whiteknight: for some value of "we"
16:33 whiteknight oh yes, NotFound makes up words, or pulls them from anime
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16:35 lucian btw, rosella is a very pretty parrot
16:36 NotFound Myabe we should do like the secret services, sets up a department in charge to choose and assign mission names.
16:36 whiteknight yeah, I wanted something colorful
16:36 lucian i'm boring, i'd just call it ParrotJavaScript
16:36 atrodo whiteknight> you should have picked "yellow" or "blue" then
16:36 NotFound Well, at least the ones in Tom Clancy books do, don't know about the real things.
16:37 lucian AcmeScript
16:37 lucian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W​ile_E._Coyote_and_Road_Runner
16:37 NotFound lucian: too easy to confuse with ecmascript.
16:37 lucian not quite a parrot
16:38 lucian NotFound: that's the point
16:38 lucian or Road Runner
16:38 lucian although that's not very evocative of JS
16:38 NotFound lucian: the joke is good, but the words are too close.
16:38 atrodo lucian> Also, Acme means "not a serious module" in the perl world
16:39 NotFound RoadScript sounds good.
16:39 whiteknight rohit_nsit08 gets to pick!
16:39 lucian atrodo: i pretend perl doesn't exist most of the time
16:39 rohit_nsit08 working on it :-)
16:39 lucian whiteknight: sure, but we can help
16:40 NotFound If you want a really bad joke: CollectorScript (opposed to ActionScript)
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16:45 rohit_nsit08 found two beautiful ones , conure and eclectus , i didn't saw if we are already using them, which one is better ?
16:45 whiteknight Eclectus was the name of the very old scheme compiler
16:46 rohit_nsit08 oops , already taken :-( ,  it was my favourite
16:46 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: Do you speak hindi?
16:46 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: yes it's my mother tongue
16:47 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: how do you say "Parrot" in hindi?
16:47 whiteknight if there even is a word for it
16:49 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: "mittho" and "totaa", in hindi , and an even older name is "shuka" in sanskrit
16:49 particle1 eclectuscript!
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16:50 particle whiteknight: msg me your addr, so i can send you the pafo treasurer chest
16:52 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: will look for it tomorrow , a creative one , something in between javascript and parrots , it needs to be a special one :-)
16:52 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: TotaaScript sounds fun to me
16:53 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: loll, yes it's funny , my friends in india will surely get surprised :-D
16:54 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: in india we have more than 100 languages , so i'm sure i'll find something awesome !!
16:55 rohit_nsit08 till than , lets keep totaascript
16:55 rohit_nsit08 :-)
16:55 whiteknight I like it!
16:56 rohit_nsit08 :-) okay , now i'm doing some final editing in the proposal , coming to your way
16:57 whiteknight awesome, can't wait
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17:06 * lucian should probably write a proposal as well
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17:08 whiteknight lucian: you're good, but not so good that you'd get accepted without one :)
17:08 lucian heh
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17:26 dalek Rosella: ec6dfcd | Whiteknight++ | src/tap_harness/testfile/Custom.winxed:
17:26 dalek Rosella: Add in a Custom TestFile type, which we can use for specifying a custom run command for tests which don't fit an existing mold but aren't hard to invoke
17:26 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/ec6dfcde90
17:26 dalek Rosella: 00bcd1e | Whiteknight++ | src/tap_harness/testfile/Custom.winxed:
17:26 dalek Rosella: the TestFile.Custom can now take a custom compiler object too.
17:26 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/00bcd1ec63
17:26 dalek Rosella: 1681daf | Whiteknight++ | s (2 files):
17:26 dalek Rosella: add to setup. fix so we build
17:26 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/1681daff1d
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17:59 dalek winxed: r876 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxed_installed.winxed:
17:59 dalek winxed: add compile time debug option to installable compiler
17:59 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=876
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18:07 dalek parrot: 3a6dd16 | dukeleto++ | api.yaml:
18:07 dalek parrot: Revert "remove pkg-config deprecation notice (completed)"
18:07 dalek parrot:
18:07 dalek parrot: This reverts commit f987b92b442cba2cd24f171b276798aa698de55b.
18:07 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/3a6dd168e4
18:07 dalek parrot: b7cf686 | dukeleto++ | api.yaml:
18:07 dalek parrot: Mark the pkg-config deprecation as completed
18:07 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b7cf686f38
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18:25 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight:just wanted to confirm the terminology, we are getting stage 0 compiler when we'll run generated PIR code on parrot and get standalone executable compiler , and nodejs will be our bootstrap compiler in the process, got confused when i saw somewhere on google that stage 0 is the bootstrap compiler ,
18:26 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: am i correct here?
18:27 whiteknight nodejs is the stage-0 compiler. stage-1 is what we get when we add in the PIR code generator and can compile itself
18:27 whiteknight stage 2 is anything we do once we are already running on Parrot
18:28 atrodo stage 2 = magic!
18:28 whiteknight magic and unicorns
18:28 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight:got it ,  i was using "bootstrap compiler " for nodejs . thanks , so stage 2 is the ultimate goal
18:28 atrodo and velociraptors
18:29 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: stage 2 is a good goal, yes. Once we are running the compiler on Parrot, we can do fun things with it
18:29 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: if things go badly, stage-1 is an acceptable result
18:29 whiteknight rohit_nsit08 other developers can make stage-2, if you set up a good stage-1
18:30 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: stage 2 is when our stage 1 is able to compile itself easily ?
18:30 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: stage-2 is when we add new features which are only for Parrot. We add new features that do not run on stage-0
18:31 whiteknight stage-1 should be able to compile itself
18:31 particle must.
18:31 whiteknight stage-1 must be able to compile itself
18:31 whiteknight :)
18:32 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: i'm afraid we didn't discussed features  , integrating PAST can be a feature , i'm putting stage 2 on proposal , suggest some simple which we can implement in the later stage of timeline , when stage 1 get finish in desired time
18:34 whiteknight did you read that PDD31 link I sent you?
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18:36 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: pls send me link again , i was facing some problem with the internet connection that time :-(
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18:36 bubaflub rohit_nsit08: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/blob​/master/docs/pdds/draft/pdd31_hll.pod
18:37 NotFound whiteknight: I'd call 0 what you call 1. The compiler used to compile stage 0 is just an external tool.
18:39 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: i am currently thinking about the best way to transform the JSON AST to PIR
18:40 dukeleto bubaflub: did you have any questions?
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18:40 dukeleto himanshu: welcome
18:40 himanshu hello
18:40 bubaflub dukeleto: i've got a basic proposal up at https://gist.github.com/890669, feel free to comment there.  i'm addressing some of whiteknight++ 's comments
18:40 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: :-)
18:41 himanshu was just wondering if someone could give me a brief idea about the "python3 on parrot" and "java on parrot" projects
18:46 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: got it , stage 2 will provide load_module() facility to the code compiled in javascript - parrot so that they can use modules made in other languages and integrate in itself and also other languages can do the same
18:46 whiteknight yes, that's a good idea
18:46 whiteknight himanshu: welcome
18:46 rohit_nsit08 himanshu: hi
18:47 himanshu hi!:)
18:48 whiteknight NotFound: the exact terminology we use isn't important, so long as we are consistent
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18:49 himanshu Are there any links provided where more details about the projects can be found?Because  the project description does not explain much.
18:49 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: i agree
18:51 whiteknight himanshu: There isn't any place with more details. But we can answer questions if you like
18:51 whiteknight himanshu: We want a Python compiler on Parrot.
18:52 whiteknight himanshu: Best course of option is to take an existing Python compiler and add in a Parrot backend for it
18:55 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: i have one doubt about the timeline , i just checked with my academic calendar that summer holidays are from 1st of june while university exams are scheduled from 16 of may till 31 , and so i won't be able to start coding work which is scheduled on 22 of may, i've included it in the timeline  , shall i start my timeline from 22 onwards or
18:56 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: or from 1st of june , from which holiday begins
18:56 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: mention the timing in your timeline. Just add an explanation of the absence
18:57 tadzik whiteknight: in your blag toast you are using a Rosella library in an NQP code. So language interop does work to some extend, yes?
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18:57 whiteknight tadzik: Yes. in a general sense, language interop "works" if you don't do anything crazy. Rosella is specifically intended to be language agnostic
18:58 whiteknight tadzik: Rosella is written in Winxed, but most of the Rosella test suite is written in NQP
18:58 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: ya i've added the reason , 'end semester exams' , so i'm starting my timeline from 1st of june , is it fyn ?
18:58 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: yes, fine by me
18:58 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: okay , thanks
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19:03 dukeleto bubaflub: will take a look in a few mins
19:03 bubaflub dukeleto: great.  i'll be in and out from work and class
19:18 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: just to confirm, i guess there is no dependency of inclusion of PAST and moving from stage 1 to stage 2 compiler, both can be done independently
19:19 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: even if i fail to implement PAST , i can still proceed furthur on stage 2 compiler?
19:20 whiteknight right, PAST is just one nice feature to add to stage 2
19:20 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: what do you mean "implement PAST" ?
19:20 whiteknight but you can do other things in stage 2
19:22 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: transforming stage 1 compilers original AST into PAST, am i making any mistake ? pls point it out
19:24 whiteknight dukeleto: after he gets a stage-1 compiler self-hosted, we are kicking around the idea of the compiler generating PAST internally, and allowing PAST to handle optimization and eventual compile down to PIR
19:25 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: yes , exactly
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19:33 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: interesting
19:34 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: sounds fine to me, but i am wondering whether this gsoc project should concentrate on the stage 0 compiler stage.
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19:43 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: stage 0 is the nodejs , isn't it?
19:44 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: pls confirm
19:45 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: that's the terminology I have been using, yes
19:46 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: ya , i'm following that , but dukeleto mentioned this project should focus on stage 0 , so i wanted to clarify that his stage 0 is our stage 1 ,
19:47 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: it's just a change in terminology. He's off by 1
19:47 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: he wants you to focus on the thing I call "stage 1"
19:48 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: loll, got it , that's why i got confused that time . now i can think beyond stages what i need to focus on , thanks
19:48 dukeleto just, there is some confusion with terminology
19:48 dukeleto *currently* the stage 0 compiler
19:48 dukeleto is nodejs
19:49 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: it may be good to add definitions to your proposal for what "stage 0", "stage 1" and "stage 2" are, so everybody is not confused
19:49 dukeleto whiteknight++
19:49 * dukeleto was mixing terminology
19:49 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: what you and whiteknight++ have been talking about is better terminology, stick to that
19:49 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: so i *meant* to say is that this gsoc project should concentrate on stage 0 and stage 1
19:50 whiteknight yes, my thoughts exactly
19:50 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: you can of course have plans for stage 2 if things go really well, but the bulk of gsoc will be making stage 1 really awesome
19:50 rohit_nsit08 thanks both of u , i'm now clear on my terminology and following 0,1,2 in the proposal :-)
19:50 dukeleto and my high-level view of stage 1 is: dump the AST from PEG.js as JSON, then use the parrot JSON parser to read it in, then transform it to PIR with a Simple Matter of Programming
19:51 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: i have made a backup policy to ensure stage 1 gets primary focus
19:51 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: awesome
19:53 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: thanks :-)
19:54 whiteknight dukeleto: PEG.js -> Json -> Json2pir -> Parrot? Sounds like a rube goldberg to me
19:54 whiteknight all we need is a monkey robot, a bowling ball, and a pack of matches to complete the process
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19:56 dukeleto whiteknight: don't forget duct tape
19:57 dukeleto whiteknight: PEG.js actually gives me a JS object, but i can easily dump that to JSON
19:57 dukeleto whiteknight: what is the best route to get from there to PIR?
19:58 whiteknight I don't know what the "best" route is. I guess the json route is not terrible
19:58 moritz note that JSON only does trees, not graphs
19:58 whiteknight I was hoping he could start by adding a PIR backend to the cafe compiler
19:58 moritz some #perl6 had troubles with that while writing AST serializers
19:58 dukeleto moritz: interesting
19:58 whiteknight right now, cafe is a JavaScript->JavaScript compiler, so replacing the backend should give us JavaScript->PIR
19:58 dukeleto moritz: perhaps I will have to actually walk the JS objects, then
19:59 dukeleto whiteknight: if you think cafe is a better route, than I am all for it
19:59 whiteknight dukeleto: Again, I don't know "better". cafe is a complete JS compiler written in JS. So it seems like a path of least resistance
19:59 * dukeleto appreciates the wisdom moritz++ imparts
19:59 whiteknight moritz is a fountainhead of wisdom
20:00 moritz no, I'm just parroting what other people said on #perl6
20:01 dukeleto moritz: please, let us teach you to take a compliment occasionally ;)
20:01 whiteknight and he's so modest!
20:01 dukeleto moritz: or we will be forced to compliment you ALL THE TIME :P
20:01 whiteknight aloha moritz is the bomb diggity
20:01 aloha whiteknight: ... but moritz is a fountainhead of wisdom ...
20:02 whiteknight damnit, compliment overload!
20:02 moritz :-)
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20:20 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: hi , version 2 project proposal uploaded on gist https://gist.github.com/891156
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20:20 cotto_work rohit_nsit08: s/ ,/,/g
20:20 darbelo joined #parrot
20:20 rohit_nsit08 putting in on the mailing list
20:21 rohit_nsit08 cotto_work : sorry, didn't get that
20:21 cotto_work It's not necessary to put a space before a comma.
20:22 rohit_nsit08 cotto_work : sorry again, but now i'm taking note of it:-)
20:23 cotto_work rohit_nsit08: thank you.
20:23 rohit_nsit08 cotto_work: thanks :-)
20:24 dalek winxed: r877 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/basic/0 (6 files):
20:24 dalek winxed: fix coding style in basic tests
20:24 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=877
20:25 whiteknight rohit_nsit08++ The proposal looks very nice now
20:26 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: thanks, added milestones with all the weeks, pls read the project details section and timeline, it will be better to get more and more clear about these sections :-)
20:28 cotto_work rohit_nsit08: I wouldn't mention it if I didn't think you'd be around during gsoc. ;]
20:29 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: i'm facing with the indentation problem on gist, i try to make it more and more readable but still some lines go beyond the limits
20:29 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: it's not a big deal
20:29 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: did you mention something about having finals during GSoC?
20:31 dukeleto bubaflub: your proposal is a good start, but of course, I want more details :)
20:31 dukeleto bubaflub: are you still stuck on that same bug?
20:31 dukeleto bubaflub: you should mention that you are working in a branch of the main parrot github repo
20:31 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: u mean exams ?
20:32 dukeleto bubaflub: "* All HLLs get access to GMP for free" should be listed as your 1st benefit, it is the most important
20:32 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: yes, do you have exams during GSoC ?
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20:32 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: ya i have mentioned them in the timeline
20:33 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto : as given in the academic calendar, they are from 16 may till 31 may, so i have started my timeline from 1st of august
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20:34 rohit_nsit08 sorry 1st of june
20:35 rohit_nsit08 cotto_work : :-)
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20:36 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: that won't work
20:37 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: you should start early
20:37 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: from all my experience with students in GSoC, you don't want to have a built-in "try to catch up" phase
20:37 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: from all the work you are doing to make your proposal awesome, I don't see that being a problem for you
20:38 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: much better to start hacking even before the coding period, and have lots of time to perfect things and do extra during the coding period
20:39 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: i'm starting early, infact i have starting my timeline from 28 march itself , pls read the project schedule's starting part
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20:43 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: i understand that the compiler project is not an easy one,  i have scheduled my timeline keeping in mind the priorities and how i'll be proceeding to accomplish my milestones.
20:44 dukeleto rohit_nsit08: ok, will read more. I am lightly reading many gsoc proposals right now :)
20:45 dalek winxed: r878 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/basic/04for.t:
20:45 dalek winxed: improve for tests (stage 0 fails one, this is expected)
20:45 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=878
20:47 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: ok :-) exams will take just 14 days and if needed i'll try to get 1 or 2 hours free daily to work on project, i didn't mentioned it because i was not sure about the situation that time :-)
20:48 rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: pls make comments on the timeline and project details, they will help me a lot
20:48 bubaflub dukeleto: updated at https://gist.github.com/890669
20:49 bubaflub msg whiteknight updated the GSoC proposal, hopefully answers some of your questions https://gist.github.com/890669
20:49 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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20:56 dalek winxed: r879 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst0.cpp:
20:56 dalek winxed: fix for in stage 0
20:56 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=879
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21:05 rohit_nsit08 good night #parrot , see u tomorrow :-)
21:08 bubaflub good night rohit_nsit08
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21:25 dukeleto bubaflub: incoming (on parrot-dev)
21:26 bubaflub dukeleto: great.  i get those as digest so i'll read it in a bit
21:26 bubaflub or... just go to the mailing list archives
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21:28 cotto_work I need to make sure my previous gsoc welcome email is updated and put somewhere public.
21:28 cotto_work msg cotto Make sure your previous gsoc welcome email is updated and put somewhere public.
21:28 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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22:04 dukeleto msg cotto do twice as much stuff, twice as fast
22:04 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
22:04 * dukeleto hopes that works
22:05 cotto_work msg dukeleto not likely
22:05 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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22:09 whiteknight good afternoon, #parrot
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22:14 dalek tracwiki: v9 | dukeleto++ | HowToDeprecate
22:14 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/How​ToDeprecate?version=9&amp;action=diff
22:16 cotto_work good $something, whiteknight
22:17 soh_cah_toa i got a question: do i need to go through the process of creating a patch and trac ticket when all i need to fix are a few mistakes in the docs/dev documentation?
22:19 cotto_work soh_cah_toa: if it's small you can nopaste a patch here
22:19 cotto_work or fork on github and submit a pull request
22:20 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: pull requests are the easiest
22:21 soh_cah_toa ok so i forked and submitted a pull request but github complains that parrot:master is already up to date with soh-cah-toa:master
22:21 cotto_work you probably didn't commit
22:21 sorear did you push your patch to github?
22:22 cotto_work or push, as sorear++ mentioned
22:22 soh_cah_toa no...do i just do a normal git commit before a pull request?
22:23 soh_cah_toa sorry, never used github before
22:23 cotto_work soh_cah_toa: yes
22:24 cotto_work soh_cah_toa: their help documentation is great
22:24 cotto_work s/help //
22:24 soh_cah_toa yeah, i've been going through some of it
22:25 soh_cah_toa so for anything i want to submit i just fork a branch on github, makes changes, git commit, pull request?
22:26 whiteknight git commit, git push
22:26 whiteknight pull request
22:26 cotto_work soh_cah_toa: yes.  If you expect to do that frequently, make one branch per change on your clone
22:26 cotto_work that makes it easier for you to keep changes separate
22:26 soh_cah_toa so if i need to change several docs...do a fork for each doc?
22:27 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: nope
22:27 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: read this: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/blob​/master/docs/project/git_workflow.pod
22:27 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: you want to follow the directions for "maintaining and syncing a fork"
22:27 soh_cah_toa yeah, this is what i need. thanks
22:27 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: you fork parrot.git once, that is your sandbox
22:28 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: and you send us collections of commits (which are really just patches), which github calls "pull requests"
22:28 soh_cah_toa alright, i misunderstood cotto_work
22:28 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: makes sense?
22:29 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: also read https://github.com/parrot/parrot/blob/m​aster/docs/project/git_terminology.pod
22:29 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: before the other :)
22:29 soh_cah_toa great, i think i got it. we'll see...
22:29 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: if you have more questions, ask me, anybody else in here or on the parrot-dev list
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22:33 soh_cah_toa wow, i have this weird sensation of code-culture shock. in all my classes, i've always been at the top of my class, like a big fish in a small pond but here i feel like a little fish w/ all my n00b questions
22:34 soh_cah_toa they should make us submit homework through git :)
22:39 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: yes, they should
22:40 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: computer science class learning and the actual things that are needed to get working, running code are often very different things
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22:41 soh_cah_toa absolutely
22:41 cotto_work not to mention deployable
22:42 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: gsoc is like a bootcamp before you get a software development job, to get you in shape for coding :)
22:42 soh_cah_toa are you guys gonna wake me up at 3 in the morning to run the parrot obstacle course? :)
22:43 cotto_work more than anything
22:43 dafrito joined #parrot
22:43 soh_cah_toa haha, i can handle it
22:44 soh_cah_toa that's what i like about gsoc. to be honest, i'm not really that concerned about money. i want the experience more than anything
22:45 bacek_at_work ~~
22:45 whiteknight joined #parrot
22:46 soh_cah_toa another question: what's w/ the double tildes?
22:46 cotto_work aloha: ~~?
22:46 aloha cotto_work: Search me, bub.
22:47 cotto_work aloha: ~~ is waving hello
22:47 aloha cotto_work: Okay.
22:47 soh_cah_toa yeah, that. another bot?
22:48 cotto_work msg soh_cah_toa yes
22:48 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
22:49 soh_cah_toa so aloha handles msg commands?
22:50 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: yes aloha is magic
22:50 whiteknight aloha handles messages, karma, and factoids
22:51 lucian LAME PROPOSAL STOP HELP WANTED STOP: https://gist.github.com/891481
22:51 soh_cah_toa cool
22:57 whiteknight lucian: we need a timeline showing a week-by-week breakdown of your intended milestones
22:58 whiteknight lucian: Also, make sure the timeline includes some "extra" things to do if you're ahead of schedule, and some fat that can be cut if you are running behind
22:59 whiteknight lucian: otherwise it's looking pretty good
23:02 dukeleto lucian: wordwrap to something sane, please :)
23:03 dukeleto lucian: looks very good, sans what whiteknight++ has already said (timeline is the most important)
23:09 dukeleto we should try to recruit this dude, if only because he is surely capable of crazy useful stuff: https://github.com/shinh/maloader
23:10 lucian dukeleto: oh, i didn't realise gist doesn't wordrwap
23:10 rurban_ joined #parrot
23:11 lucian yeah, the timeline is Coming Soon™
23:12 rurban left #parrot
23:12 rurban_ is now known as rurban
23:15 cgaertner joined #parrot
23:15 plobsing ~∼
23:15 cgaertner hello #parrot
23:16 whiteknight hello cgaertner
23:17 cgaertner no news from my side yet
23:18 cgaertner however, I finally got a decent dev environment working on windows
23:19 bubaflub joined #parrot
23:20 cotto_work cgaertner: great.  We need more windows hackers.
23:21 sjn left #parrot
23:21 dukeleto lucian: no worries, gist is gisty like that
23:21 dukeleto cgaertner: howdy
23:21 cgaertner cotto_work: I had a hybrid mingw+cygwin setup going which worked quite well for the C coding I did
23:21 cgaertner now, I'm pure mingw/msys
23:22 cgaertner dukeleto: hi
23:23 cgaertner I'm currently testing perl-5.12.3, which doesn't fail horribly yet
23:23 cgaertner then, on to parrot...
23:26 whiteknight cgaertner: are you on 32bit or 64 bit?
23:26 cgaertner whiteknight: 32bit
23:27 whiteknight okay, good. 32bit is easier
23:27 whiteknight windows on 64bit is...tricky
23:35 lucian_ joined #parrot
23:38 lucian left #parrot
23:39 cgaertner 356844 tests, 13 failures - let's see if parrot can do better
23:40 whiteknight that's perl?
23:41 cgaertner yes, using the instructions from http://www.adp-gmbh.ch/blog/2004/october/9.html for a win32 build
23:41 whiteknight I've never built my own perl before
23:41 cgaertner I couldn't get configure+make work correctly...
23:42 whiteknight for Parrot?
23:42 cgaertner for perl - the win32-build uses dmake instead of configure/make
23:43 cgaertner I already had a working parrot using strawberry, so I don't expect any problems...
23:46 mikehh left #parrot
23:47 cgaertner configuring...
23:48 cgaertner interesting - only works with mingw-make, not msys-make...
23:50 dukeleto cgaertner: our configure system is a the battlefield of OS noncompatibility, with much blood and rotting corpses
23:51 cgaertner should parrot auto-detect gmp - I think the last time I built it I saw that lib...
23:52 dmalcolm left #parrot
23:57 mikehh joined #parrot
23:58 dukeleto cgaertner: it should
23:58 dukeleto cgaertner: but certain library detection on window-ish systems is fragile, depending on the phase of the moon and whether spaces are in a directory name
23:58 dukeleto cgaertner: other variables are most likely involved as well

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