Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-04-01

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Time Nick Message
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00:12 kid51 joined #parrot
00:13 kid51 Is there *one* site where all the Parrot-related GSOC proposals are to be found?
00:15 cotto_work http://trac.parrot.org/parrot​/wiki/ParrotGSoC2011Students is the closest
00:16 cotto_work I'm not sure I understand the reluctance to post on melange other than not wanting to use melange.
00:17 lucian cotto_work: or forgetting about it
00:18 kid51 cotto_work:  That page lacks links to the students' proposals.
00:18 kid51 I know that some are on github gists
00:19 kid51 Others on parrot-dev
00:19 kid51 all over the place
00:19 dukeleto kid51: feel free to organize them :)
00:21 cotto_work "closest" doesn't necessarily mean "close"
00:22 kid51 Shall I email the candidates to have them add a link to the latest drafts of their proposals?
00:22 lucian kid51: done :)
00:22 cotto_work kid51: +0.  I'd prefer they just put them in melange since they'll need to go there anyway.
00:23 kid51 Well, then, can you put a link to Melange on this page in our wiki:  http://trac.parrot.org/parrot​/wiki/ParrotGSoC2011Students ?
00:24 kid51 I want to go to a single location so I can read them all at one sitting.
00:24 kid51 lucian: yes, that's what I was hoping for.  Thanks.
00:28 dalek tracwiki: v10 | jkeenan++ | ParrotGSoC2011Students
00:28 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotG​SoC2011Students?version=10&action=diff
00:28 dalek tracwiki: v11 | lucian++ | ParrotGSoC2011Students
00:28 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotG​SoC2011Students?version=11&action=diff
00:32 kid51 aloha, melange?
00:32 aloha kid51: melange is crapping out
00:32 whiteknight untill all the proposals are uploaded to melange, we won't have them all in one place
00:32 kid51 aloha, thanks (?)
00:33 whiteknight I've tried to get them all loaded onto github, but some students have done their own thing
00:33 kid51 Well, that's why I was proposing to contact them and have them add a link on that wiki page
00:33 whiteknight We do have two proposals on melange right now. bubaflub++ and lucian++
00:33 kid51 link?
00:33 lucian kid51: reload that wiki page
00:33 whiteknight http://www.google-melange.com/​gsoc/dashboard/google/gsoc2011
00:35 bubaflub i have mine on a gist as well, but i'm keeping the melange one up to date
00:35 whiteknight you can edit it when it is in melange?
00:35 whiteknight in years past, I thought that was something of a problem
00:36 lucian whiteknight: there's a WYSIWYG editor, it's not great but works
00:36 kid51 bubaflub: Can you put a link on that wiki page?
00:37 bubaflub kid51: sure, one moment
00:37 whiteknight I have yet to find a WYSIWYG editor that *was* great
00:37 atrodo whiteknight> vim?
00:37 whiteknight vim is WYSIWYG? And I don't use VIM
00:38 atrodo it probably depends on your definition of wysiwyg
00:38 bubaflub kid51: updated
00:38 whiteknight every couple months I install vim, use it until I get so angry it becomes a point of medical concern, then I uninstall it and go back to medit
00:38 whiteknight in fact, it's been a few months since last time. I think I'm due
00:38 lucian whiteknight: it's just awesome, try it :)
00:39 lucian whiteknight: there is a lack of awesome tutorials, they're just ok
00:39 atrodo whiteknight: wow, really?  what do you find so frustrating?
00:39 lucian whiteknight: what i recommend is enabling vi bindings in your favourite editor
00:39 lucian it's often a better match
00:40 plobsing try evim. keep your old keybindings, but using vim. not really sure why.
00:40 atrodo I actually ended up learning vim by using gvim in windows mode.  Got use to it and used gvim to discover how to do things in vi
00:40 lucian plobsing: i don't see how that's any help (there's also cream like that)
00:40 whiteknight okay, I just installed it and am in vim
00:41 lucian vim without vi bindings is sort of pointless
00:41 whiteknight first question: how the hell do I exit it?
00:41 lucian whiteknight: heh
00:41 lucian :wq
00:41 lucian or :q
00:41 whiteknight both do nothing
00:41 lucian :w saves
00:41 whiteknight fuck it. Closed the terminal
00:41 lucian press esc, :q
00:41 whiteknight uninstalling vim
00:41 lucian :))
00:41 lucian atrodo has a point, gvim is likely more forgiving
00:41 whiteknight on the bright side, apt makes these cycles very easy
00:41 lucian apt++
00:42 atrodo ctrl-z, ps | grep vim, kill -9
00:42 lucian although i prefer apt+1
00:42 lucian apt+=1
00:42 lucian atrodo: that's just evil
00:42 whiteknight as far as I am concerned, any console-based program that doesn't GO THE HELL AWAY when I press ctrl+c is broken
00:42 lucian i've been meaning to try emacs + viper
00:42 whiteknight I consider that to be a huge, unforgivable design flaw
00:42 cotto_work there's probably a nice way to set that up
00:42 atrodo lucian: that's how I get out of accidently opening some emacs variant, or mc
00:42 mikehh whiteknight: I have been using Kate for yonks as my principal editor, it is very customizable with lots of plugins
00:42 lucian at this point i find it hard to edit without vi bindings
00:43 lucian whiteknight: actually, it's trivial to set it up :)
00:43 lucian map <C-c> :q!
00:43 whiteknight mikehh: I was using kate for a while too. On my box it always output hundreds of lines of debug garbage to the console, and there were some problems with the colorschmes that made it unusable for me
00:44 dalek tracwiki: v12 | lucian++ | ParrotGSoC2011Students
00:44 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotG​SoC2011Students?version=12&amp;action=diff
00:44 dalek tracwiki: v13 | bubaflub++ | ParrotGSoC2011Students
00:44 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotG​SoC2011Students?version=13&amp;action=diff
00:44 lucian dalek: you sure like your spam
00:44 whiteknight mikehh: there was a bug at one poing where it was impossible to change the color of the cursor in kate. I like a light-text-on-dark-background theme, and the cursor could not be changed from blank
00:45 whiteknight mikehh: I used it for several months anyway, but eventually had to switch
00:46 whiteknight atrodo: okay, I'm in gvim. I press escape, type :q<enter> and it doesn't exit
00:46 mikehh I am about to install Ubuntu 11.04 i386 beta and Kubuntu 11,04 amd64 beta, there are new versions there, I need to try out
00:46 whiteknight it says No write since last change
00:46 whiteknight I don't know what that means, or how to just make it close anyway
00:46 cotto_work :q!
00:46 whiteknight blah
00:47 cotto_work ! forces it to close without saving changes
00:47 cotto_work :wq saves and closes
00:47 whiteknight it's like windows. You say "shut down", then you have to spend 10 minutes clicking "yes I really want my damn computer to turn off" warning messages about every program that isn't responding
00:47 cotto_work That's so you don't accidentally lose unsaved work.
00:48 kid51 whiteknight: Windows is not the only offender there.  I face same problem with this iBook.  And, to a lesser extent, with Ubuntu at $job
00:49 kid51 But I feel your pain!
00:49 whiteknight kid51:  no, you're right. I've always found windows to be the worst offender, but it isn't the only one
00:49 whiteknight in ubuntu, I have an icon set up as an alias for "sudo shutdown -t now", which usually does the trick without the bullshit
00:50 kid51 What always gets me in Ubuntu is that I always have one or two unsaved files in gedit, which functions like a scratchpad for me
00:51 kid51 the text editors on my iBook are annoying in the same wayt
00:51 whiteknight I'm a save junky. I keep my fingers on ctrl+s and hit it every few seconds
00:51 whiteknight I don't need my editor reminding me to do it more
00:53 plobsing agreed. The UI rule of "never delete the users work" is only for beginner users. When I say shutdown, I mean it. If you ask me if I'm sure, I'm just going to yank the power cord.
00:55 whiteknight plobsing: exactly
00:55 cotto_work I'd agree more if the q and w keys weren't right next to each other.
00:55 whiteknight plobsing: I've had so many occasions where I click shutdown and then run to catch a train. The next morning I come back, the computer is still on telling me that some program isn't responding
00:56 whiteknight what's annoying me about vim, and maybe there's a setting to make all this crap go away, is that it doesn't seem to follow any of the key combinations that the entire rest of the world folls
00:56 whiteknight follows
00:56 plobsing whiteknight: worse, I've shutdown, left, had the screensaver kick in (on a turned off screen), and blown a (really old) graphics card.
00:56 whiteknight I mean, ctrl+s, ctrl+c, ctrl+v, ctrl+x, etc all have extremely common meanings that all other programs follow
00:57 whiteknight plobsing: ouch
00:57 whiteknight ctrl+a, which should be "select all" is instead pasting something
00:57 whiteknight shift+arrow doesn't select text, it jumps the cursor around in weird ways
00:58 whiteknight pgUp and pgDown don't appear to be paging up and paging down
00:58 whiteknight seriously, vim is the twilight zone
00:58 cotto_work That sounds like what Cream was made to address.
00:59 whiteknight cream?
00:59 plobsing whiteknight: to be fair, the most common programs for me are all readline-based and don't use those key combos at all. they're emacs-like.
00:59 cotto_work http://cream.sourceforge.n​et/keyboardshortcuts.html
00:59 whiteknight plobsing: oh. Maybe I'm just too used to my particular combos
00:59 atrodo whiteknight: vim has a emulate windows mode that sets up most of those key bindings
01:02 plobsing that's evim. I suppose it could be used to ease-in. But it somewhat defeats the point, in the short-run.
01:02 plobsing e for "easy"
01:03 whiteknight I really have very simplistic needs. I don't need the space shuttle, just a little honda
01:04 whiteknight what bugs me is that so many editors get the most basic fundamentals of code editing wrong
01:04 whiteknight color schemes that can't be easily modified, UI components which are broken, huge arrays of menus and nested submenus for features that I don't need and would like to hide, etc
01:06 plobsing everybody thinks their needs or "simple". it's a shame the intersection of all those "simple" needs is not so simple. such is software.
01:06 plobsing s/or/are/
01:06 whiteknight no, that's true
01:07 whiteknight I say simple because I tend to be much more comfortable in the much more simplistic editors
01:07 cotto_work nano?
01:07 whiteknight I use nano a lot
01:07 whiteknight if I could get smart indenting in nano, i might switch to that full time
01:08 whiteknight it's copy+paste functionality is lame, but that can be forgiven
01:10 plobsing is copy paste that important? for people who don't get paid by the line?
01:11 whiteknight no. That's why I said it was forgivable
01:13 whiteknight people keep telling me "try vim" or "try emacs", and I do. The reality is that I need to just stick with medit or something else of similar quality
01:14 bubaflub i just tried the example code at http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/devel/html/docs​/book/pir/ch07_objects.pod.html#Instantiation and it doesn't run
01:14 bubaflub "Class '[ 'Foo' ]' not found
01:14 bubaflub current instr.: 'main' pc 19 (test2.pir:14)"
01:15 bubaflub any ideas?
01:16 plobsing namespaces aren't classes and classes aren't namespaces
01:17 plobsing we made mistakes about that in the past and have been learning that lesson the hard way for a while
01:18 bubaflub ah, so i need to do a newclass
01:19 plobsing yes. we do support methods in namespaces being auto-imported into classes, but I'm not sure that's a good idea long-term
01:22 bubaflub plobsing: can i have an init function in a class that takes a param?  if so, how do i instantiate that object with new?
01:24 plobsing bubaflub: you can use init_int or init_pmc. alternatively, nearly every HLL finds these unsatisfactory, and they come up with constructor-conventions
01:24 plobsing Winxed follows C++. NQP and Rakudo do the Perl6 thing.
01:26 lucian whiteknight: meh, i tend to agree with vim's keybindings in general
01:26 lucian i sort of wish gnome or kde has a modal option
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01:44 bubaflub plobsing: should i use "t" for a c-string in an NCI signature or something else?  i recall you saying something about that earlier today...
01:49 bubaflub i see it, you recommend using p instead of a t
01:52 plobsing yes. the way "t" works, although convenient, lacks sufficient information to handle alloc/free responsibly. it has been deprecated, and will be removed.
01:54 mtk left #parrot
02:00 bubaflub plobsing: i have a few more questions but need to head home from class - i'll pester you if you are around when i get back
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02:10 * cotto_work has prepared $dayjob's site for tomorrow
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02:11 cotto_work http://drupal.org/sandbox/cotto/1112706
02:11 plobsing zomg. is it that time of year already? I'm not prepared.
02:12 cotto_work you can officially stop believing anything you hear between now and Saturday.
02:12 cotto_work including this
02:13 plobsing wait, I thought you were left-coast.
02:13 cotto_work yes
02:13 cotto_work margin of error
02:13 plobsing ah
02:15 cotto_work I ran into the first article earlier today.
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02:48 cotto ~~
02:53 cotto atrodo, poing
02:53 atrodo cotto> pong
02:54 cotto atrodo, how's the writeup of the delta between your lorito prototype and the m0 spec coming?
02:55 atrodo working on it now, should have it done here in a little while
02:56 cotto great.  I'm ready for some hacking.
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03:21 bubaflub ping plobsing
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03:25 atrodo cotto> https://gist.github.com/896927
03:25 plobsing bubaflub: pong
03:25 cotto downloading to my brain now
03:26 bubaflub plobsing: instead of using t in my signature i'm using p for a return type
03:26 cotto atrodo, what you mean by special registers?
03:26 atrodo registers having special meaning
03:27 bubaflub plobsing: so i can do $P0 = $P1.'mpz_get_str'(...)
03:27 bubaflub plobsing: but how do i get a string from $P0?
03:27 cotto like PC, EX, etc?
03:27 atrodo cotto> Yes
03:27 plobsing bubaflub: you will have to do more management with 'p' signautures
03:28 cotto atrodo, I didn't mention anything about symbols in the spec.  I'll add that to my list of things to think about.
03:28 plobsing I've been dlfunc'ing Parrot_str_new. But it seems that it is common enough that it might be better to package it as a dynop.
03:28 bubaflub plobsing: what exactly am i getting back? a PtrObj?
03:29 plobsing bubaflub: ATM, an UnManagedStruct. In the future, a Ptr.
03:29 atrodo cotto> I think they're better than using string pmcs
03:29 plobsing you can use it as a pointer-ish pmc and pass it to NCIs that expect such in any case
03:29 atrodo at that low level, you're more concerned about lookups and string comparisons, not building strings
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03:31 bubaflub plobsing: doh.  now i've got a segmentation fault - definitely something wrong with my signature.  how can i debug this?
03:31 cotto atrodo, I don't think M0 will know about object-strings.
03:31 cotto it'll have C-like strings (or something similar)
03:32 cotto maybe something like safestr
03:32 plobsing bubaflub: you can find the location of the segfault with gdb. that's always my first step, but I may be an addict.
03:32 atrodo oh, i always read the spec as being string objects
03:33 cotto I'll make a note to clarify that.
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03:33 PerlJam atrodo: "alorito assumes GC exists in native code"?
03:33 PerlJam atrodo: I think that's a major difference that goes unmentioned at the end.
03:34 atrodo PerlJam: It is, but it's not hard to change at this point, since there is no GC
03:34 PerlJam good point.  :)
03:35 atrodo I like have the idea of a in-vm gc, but i think it's got to be done right if it's done at all
03:36 cotto atrodo, I'm not sure myself about the extra layers of indirection that'll come from the way the current spec does registers.
03:37 cotto It's a valid concern.
03:37 atrodo cotto> a half bake thought i've had so far seems to think about being able to prefill registers from a const table, to save (in alorito) load_const ops
03:37 cotto btw, the tl;dr is great for giving me an idea of what to expect.  Thanks for that.
03:38 atrodo no problem, i know how hard walls of text can be sometimes
03:38 cotto atrodo++
03:38 cotto atrodo, I'm not sure about that.  It seems magical.
03:39 atrodo that?
03:39 cotto prefilling registers
03:39 atrodo oh, my previous statement
03:39 atrodo any more magical than a variables table?
03:39 cotto I'd rather make it explicit.  Let the code be smart.
03:40 atrodo The bytecode would tell the VM what to prefill where
03:40 atrodo I would imagine
03:40 cotto I'm just saying that that should be explicit.  It'll be mostly generated anyway.
03:41 cotto (m0 bytecode, that is)
03:42 cotto What's the motivation for prefilling registers?
03:43 cotto I see registers as where the important runtimey bits life and the variables table as where mostly-constant bits and less important runtimey bits live.
03:44 atrodo Keep some of the benefits of the variables table while removing the extra indirection
03:45 atrodo Right, but as I've read it now, the variables table seem like another register area that important things happen at
03:46 atrodo I'm just thinking out load, I don't have a solid thought
03:46 cotto wfm
03:47 atrodo I'm not a fan of the variables table and the indirection and complexity it brings, but it does bring some value to the table
03:47 cotto pun
03:47 bubaflub dukeleto: NAILED IT: https://gist.github.com/889513 - just kidding, it doesn't work at all.
03:48 cotto I don't see bytecode segments (which I expect to map somewhat onto subs) frequently needing more than 62 (or even 20) registers of a given type.  I see the variables table as being mostly for backup.
03:49 bubaflub plobsing: if you care to see what i'm working with, https://gist.github.com/889513
03:49 bubaflub plobsing: doesn't work
03:51 cotto If variables are frequently used, they may be worth optimizing further.
03:52 cotto regarding alorito's "call", I picked "goto_cs" rather than "call" to emphasize that nothing more than control flow transfer is being done.  The rest needs to be set up manually.
03:55 plobsing bubaflub: do you know where the error is?
03:56 plobsing do you have a backtrace (either C or PIR, but preferably PIR to start)?
03:56 bubaflub don't know where the error is - i'm using only three functions
03:57 bubaflub first to init (which should set it to zero), second to set the number to 42, third to get the number back
03:57 bubaflub and i'm only getting zero
03:58 bubaflub ah, i got it
03:59 bubaflub updated the gist - simple error, but now it works
03:59 bubaflub enough for tonight; i'm pretty satisfied
03:59 plobsing run gdb on your program. to get a C backtrace, type "bt\n". to get a PIR backtrace, type "p PDB_Backtrace(interp)" (this may require you to walk up the stack to afunction that has an interp)
04:00 cotto atrodo, you still around?
04:00 atrodo cotto> I am
04:00 cotto ok
04:01 bubaflub msg dukeleto double just kidding - it works now.  updated the gist.
04:01 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
04:05 bubaflub left #parrot
04:28 * atrodo falls asleep
04:28 cotto atrodo, 'night
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06:42 Tene ... I see no email from lucian, now that I'm actually home and have time available.  I guess maybe he's doing that after lectures tomorrow?
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07:18 dalek parrot/m0-spec: 695855c | cotto++ | / (2 files):
07:18 dalek parrot/m0-spec: remove example m0 file and assembler
07:18 dukeleto ~~
07:18 dalek parrot/m0-spec: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/695855c3a5
07:18 dalek parrot/m0-spec: 4e5cac6 | cotto++ | docs/pdds/draft/pdd32_m0.pod:
07:18 dalek parrot/m0-spec: put example m0 in the pdd
07:18 dalek parrot/m0-spec: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/4e5cac65a7
07:19 dukeleto aloha coverage?
07:19 aloha dukeleto: coverage is http://cv.perl6.cz or http://tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/cover/cover-results/
07:19 dukeleto botsnack
07:21 cotto hio dukeleto
07:25 cotto time for sleep
07:26 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: ea6d76a | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:26 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_get_string_keyed_int
07:26 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/ea6d76a6aa
07:26 dukeleto cotto: howdy
07:27 dukeleto msg bubabflub nice work! i see the beginning of a GMP binding there
07:27 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
07:28 cotto that reminds me of Pulp Fiction
07:37 dukeleto cotto: is a foot rub involved?
07:38 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 7f4241d | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:38 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: Add commented out, core-dumperific test for Parrot_PMC_get_string_keyed_str
07:38 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/7f4241d2c8
07:38 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 9b98093 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:38 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_(set|get)_integer_keyed
07:38 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/9b98093b4f
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 50ea356 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_(set|get)_integer_keyed_int
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/50ea356a4b
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: f5d50d5 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_(set|get)_number_keyed
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f5d50d56ed
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 5d51a8e | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_(set|get)_number_keyed_int
07:45 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/5d51a8e2ac
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 220c5d3 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_set_pmc
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/220c5d34d0
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 44e8a9a | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_set_pmc_keyed
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/44e8a9a566
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 13ea07b | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
07:51 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_set_pmc_keyed_int
07:52 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/13ea07b150
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08:05 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 91aa651 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
08:05 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_set_pointer
08:05 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/91aa651e1d
08:07 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: da19fc2 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
08:07 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_share(_ro)
08:07 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/da19fc2997
08:12 dukeleto Exception is: type 33 severity 2 message 'ResizablePMCArray: Can't resize!'
08:13 * dukeleto gets a merit badge
08:13 * moritz suggests renaming it to NotAlwaysResizablePMCArray
08:14 dukeleto evidently, that is the LTA error message for attempting to resize to a negative integer
08:16 dukeleto perhaps we should hack on an OccasionallyResizableArray
08:17 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: da02ac0 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
08:17 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_splice
08:17 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/da02ac004f
08:24 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 93ad5af | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
08:24 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_find_method
08:24 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/93ad5afddb
08:28 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 8c7a2d3 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
08:28 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_exists_keyed(_int)
08:28 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/8c7a2d3856
08:31 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: c298f48 | dukeleto++ | / (478 files):
08:31 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: Merge branch 'master' into leto/embed_grant
08:31 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/c298f486ae
08:32 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 16 commits to parrot by leto
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10:15 cgaertner hello #parrot
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10:27 moritz is there a way to add a catch-all method to a class?
10:27 moritz ie one that is called if somebody tries to call a non-existing method
10:49 bacek ~~
10:49 bacek moritz, override VTABLE .find_method?
10:58 cgaertner is there a vtable function on the interpreter PMC exposed by the embedding API I can use for testing?
10:58 cgaertner I auto-generated GOBject wrappers for PMCs, but the interpreter currently is the only one I can get access to...
10:58 cgaertner ^ for PMC vtable functions, that is
10:59 cgaertner now, I need to check if it actually works...
11:00 bacek cgaertner, all (?) vtables are exposed as Parrot_PMC_foo for embedders
11:01 bacek cgaertner, check include/extend.h
11:03 cgaertner bacek: I already auto-generated my own wrappers from vtable.tbl - I just need one available on the interpreter PMC which does something useful for testing...
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11:11 rohit_nsit08 hello #parrot
11:36 cgaertner first test ow GObject wrapper for libparrot: https://github.com/cgaertner/gparr​ot/blob/master/test/01-interp-01.c
11:36 cgaertner can't do anything useful yet, though ;)
11:38 cgaertner got to go, might be back later today, for sure tomorrow...
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12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: f628e03 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: a few CSS changes. I'm an artist, and my whims become reality
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/f628e034ea
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 5e276e8 | Whiteknight++ | libraries/test.md:
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: update documentation about test.md
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/5e276e85b6
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 18e8db3 | Whiteknight++ | libraries/test.md:
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: flesh out the test documentation a bit more. Include new information about TestStatus
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/18e8db3825
12:35 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 9b1af25 | Whiteknight++ | libraries/ (4 files):
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: start fleshing out more documentation
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/9b1af25fb1
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: ed2995c | Whiteknight++ | libraries/ (3 files):
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: expand some more documentation. Add examples for proxy
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12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/ed2995c5f9
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 0f6223f | Whiteknight++ | stylesheets/rosella.css:
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: use some colors actually pulled from the logo image for the background and borders
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/0f6223fece
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: e187cc3 | Whiteknight++ | libraries/future.md:
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: Add in a new future page, which describes some of the libraries which are in planning or development
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/e187cc3917
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: c927cd9 | Whiteknight++ | / (3 files):
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: Remove information about development libraries from the index page. Add information there about project goals and dependencies. Remove the list of development libraries from the page header.
12:36 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/c927cd9af2
12:36 dalek Rosella: b8b9607 | Whiteknight++ | / (21 files):
12:36 dalek Rosella: Break important bits of TestContext out into TestStatus. TestContext can be used to hold data and helper methods. TestStatus is the important details which are used internally by the test suite, and which control the way the test runs and reports its status
12:36 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/b8b9607389
12:36 dalek Rosella: e81c44c | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
12:36 dalek Rosella: Add in missing files
12:36 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/e81c44c2dd
12:36 dalek Rosella: 3156f57 | Whiteknight++ | / (8 files):
12:36 dalek Rosella: flesh out several tests for action library. Move ContainerResolver test file (mostly stubbish) to the t/container folder
12:36 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/3156f57eb0
12:36 dalek Rosella: 35abe94 | Whiteknight++ | t/action/Argument.t:
12:36 dalek Rosella: fix broken tests for Argument
12:36 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/35abe94abf
12:36 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
12:37 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: hi, good morning
12:37 tadzik good morning whiteknight
12:38 whiteknight good morning rohit_nsit08, tadzik
12:38 whiteknight how are you fine gentlemen doing today?
12:38 tadzik not bad
12:38 tadzik what about you?
12:39 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: studied winxed stage1, what is vtable in it?
12:39 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: compiled the stage 1 to see it's generated PIR code
12:40 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: some experiments on rhino on commandline
12:40 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: "vtable" is the low-level dispatch table for PMCs
12:40 whiteknight they are like methods, but lower
12:41 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: vtables are the standard interface for objects
12:42 whiteknight we can use vtables to define the most basic behaviors of a PMC
12:43 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: do i need to know ECMAScript specification also?
12:44 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: it would be good to know it, yes. The cafe compiler should already be correct, but it might not be
12:44 whiteknight the specification will help you decide what code to generate, to be correct
12:45 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: ya, that's why. I read a little yesterday but it was so long, i thought it will be better to ask
12:46 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: You don't need to read it all and memorize it. Keep it as a reference to help answer questions
12:46 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: which portion of code shall i focus most in winxed stg1. i'm now familiar with it's basic design. Token class etc
12:47 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: I think the Emit classes are the code generators
12:49 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: okay, i'll study them. I checked rhino today. it has a print(EXPR) command to print an evaluated expression or string, this function is being implemented by some class.
12:49 whiteknight that's probably where you want to start lookin
12:49 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: winxed is using say() for the same
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12:51 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: c09143c | Whiteknight++ | _layouts/rosella.html:
12:51 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: +some nav links
12:51 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: i was in doubt about how javascript will do that, since there is no print in the language specification,
12:51 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/c09143c8d3
12:51 bubaflub morning whiteknight
12:52 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: You may need to add your own library of functions. There is also common.js which adds a library with IO
12:52 whiteknight good morning bubaflub
12:53 bubaflub whiteknight: don't know if you saw it, but i got basic GMP bindings to work through NCI: https://gist.github.com/889513
12:53 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: whiteknight: ohh, i have seen common.js , okay got it
12:54 bubaflub whiteknight: i'm also looking at doing the project in Winxed with Rosella rather than PIR and Test::More
12:54 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: common.js is a good standard. However, you might need to write a lot of it yourself to work on Parrot
12:54 whiteknight rohit_nsit08: you may want to follow common.js as a guide, but only put in some important parts like IO
12:54 whiteknight bubaflub: let me look
12:55 whiteknight bubaflub: I think that's a good choice :) I'm biased
12:55 whiteknight bubaflub: important thing is picking something you are comfortable with, and something that you can use effectively
12:55 bubaflub whiteknight: i'm familiar with javascript and c syntax and if it's cleaner, it's definitely worth it to learn winxed.  i'm checking out the rosella docs now
12:56 whiteknight bubaflub: I just uploaded a new batch of website docs this morning
12:56 whiteknight http://whiteknight.github.com/Rosella
12:56 rohit_nsit08 whiteknight: hmm.. IO will be a good facility, will do some study on how to go with it
12:56 bubaflub whiteknight: Did you?!?! i don't trust anything on 4/1
12:56 whiteknight bubaflub: ah, good point.
12:56 bubaflub whiteknight: just kidding.  i saw the dalek commits fly by
12:56 bubaflub whiteknight: though you could be nefarious than i imagine...
12:57 whiteknight bubaflub: If you go to that link and see Rick Astley, I apologize
12:57 bubaflub whiteknight: at my last job in my going away email i rick rolled my team
12:58 whiteknight :)
12:59 bubaflub just a regular message and then after my email signature a link to a youtube with no explanation
12:59 bubaflub everyone wondered, what's this?  so they clicked it.
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13:11 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 0b75116 | Whiteknight++ | _layouts/rosella.html:
13:11 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: add in the missing newline. This is why we test *before* we push
13:11 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/0b75116653
13:12 bubaflub whiteknight: so Rosella is a collection of sane defaults and patterns to use?
13:12 whiteknight bubaflub: basically, yes
13:12 whiteknight the test-related stuff is the most practical, but all of it has usefulness
13:12 whiteknight well, i hope it's useful
13:18 bubaflub whiteknight: yeah, it does look useful.  i understand the test stuff the best though mock and proxy have uses outside of that
13:25 whiteknight mocks are almost exclusively for testing, but the proxy library has many potential uses
13:26 whiteknight I keep imagining a proxy wrapper over a SOAP library, so we can transparently make method calls to objects located across a network
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14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 360c22b | Whiteknight++ | / (6 files):
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: add in some new articles and stubs for testing-related stuff. Add in some external links for other places (my blog) which talks about Rosella
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/360c22ba9c
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 1dd1d75 | Whiteknight++ | articles/ (4 files):
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: fix page titles. copy+paste is bad
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/1dd1d7506f
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 5f6603f | Whiteknight++ | articles/index.md:
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: formatting the articles index
14:45 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/5f6603f851
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15:39 whiteknight msg cotto http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/
15:39 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
15:44 whiteknight actually, this whole website is a wellspring of great information
15:44 whiteknight there's plenty of good information in here about exceptions, which I suspect will be instrumental in our eventual refactor of that system.
15:51 whiteknight derivative parsing, CPS, compilers, and a few other fun topics
15:54 dukeleto ~~
15:54 dukeleto whiteknight: yes, matt might has some great writing
15:56 whiteknight I'm very entertained by some of his CPS articles right now
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16:05 cgaertner hello #parrot
16:07 dukeleto cgaertner: howdy
16:09 cotto_work ~~
16:11 cotto_work whiteknight: nice find
16:15 sorear welcome
16:21 whiteknight cotto_work: I've been on this website for a while reading articles, clicking links, and continuing reading
16:21 whiteknight Added several new books to my amazon wishlist in the process
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16:25 cotto_work I've all but given up on buying dead-tree books.  The time between when I care and when I get distracted by some other shiny thing is much shorter than the time it takes to ship a book.
16:25 cotto_work ebooks are really nice that way
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16:27 whiteknight I love dead-tree books. I don't read ebooks at all
16:28 whiteknight the rest of the world seems to be moving away from that position
16:29 cgaertner first test for Parrot-in-GObject: https://github.com/cgaertner/gparr​ot/blob/master/test/01-interp-01.c
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16:36 whiteknight cgaertner: that's a nice start
16:37 cgaertner I also found out that MSYS won't cut it as development environment
16:38 cgaertner I got vala's introspection tool to compile after some hachs, but it'll fail at runtime
16:38 cgaertner so, there's no way around setting up a vm
16:38 whiteknight we do our best to stay portable, but windows does create some unique and unnecessary challenges
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16:44 cgaertner what bothers me is that in many cases, the code is nearly portable, but not quite
16:44 cgaertner in case of vala and the gobject introspection tools, it's because of using glib
16:44 whiteknight yeah
16:45 cgaertner in case of Perl, because it already comes with its own *nix abstraction layer for the windows build
16:45 cgaertner the build system just can't deal with MSYS
16:46 cgaertner someone obviously patched it in the past for the Perl 5.6.5 that comes with MSYS, but no one seems to have bothered since then...
16:46 whiteknight have you tried a heavier solution like cygwin?
16:47 whiteknight I know Parrot has had some problems on cygwin in the past, but with effort I don't think any of them are insurmountable
16:47 cgaertner I switched to MSYS because I had subtle problems with cygwin ;)
16:47 whiteknight okay, so you've already been down that dirt road
16:47 cgaertner I basically created my own cygwin by compiling libs for MSYS from source
16:47 cgaertner however some things are just not available for MSYS
16:48 cgaertner though if you could abstract perl's win32-layer, you'd probably be 3/4 to cywgin
16:49 cgaertner setting up a vm once just seems the most time-efficient solution
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16:49 whiteknight yeah, I use a lot of VMs
16:49 whiteknight at home, I use a VM to run windows for iTunes
16:52 sorear does Parrot have any goals like "run on Windows self-contained"?
16:52 sorear Parrot definitely tries to be less Unix-centric than Perl5
16:52 sorear (for instance, we've rejected requests for a core POSIX binding)
16:56 dukeleto sorear: i think Parrot Foundation is going to impose that Parrot is solely developed for WinCE in the future
16:57 NotFound sorear: having goals is good, having people working is better. We don't have much people working on windows.
16:57 PerlJam dukeleto: you're supposed to write a nice semi-plausible blog post, not randomly blurt it out on #parrot  :)
16:58 dukeleto oops. #parrot is now under a sheisty NDA written on the back of a napkin that I threw out last week
16:58 * dukeleto calls the lawyers
16:59 plobsing dukeleto: if we're going in that direction, we should probably also optimize parrot.org for IE6 (and put up notices indicating this).
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17:03 dukeleto plobsing: why not go the extra mile? IE4 was really all anybody needs.
17:03 dukeleto sorear: please note your calendar if you are confused
17:16 whiteknight IE6 is optimized enough
17:17 whiteknight in seriousness, the problem with compatibility on windows is a matter of not having enough developers on that platform
17:19 whiteknight I'm actually going to pull and run tests on my windows machine right now
17:19 whiteknight another huge problem is that git is heinous on windows
17:19 whiteknight by design, it seems
17:22 mikehh t/src/extend_vtable.t failed all tests
17:24 mikehh g++ failure
17:28 whiteknight g--
17:29 dukeleto mikehh: darn.
17:29 dukeleto mikehh: they all passed on my machine. I promise.
17:29 whiteknight dukeleto: I think we need to all chip in and buy you a copy of g++ to test with :)
17:30 dukeleto whiteknight: how much does it cost these days?
17:30 dukeleto karma g
17:30 aloha g has karma of 348.
17:30 whiteknight blha
17:30 whiteknight blah
17:30 dukeleto karma f
17:30 aloha f has karma of 0.
17:30 whiteknight karma c
17:30 aloha c has karma of 361.
17:30 dukeleto g sure is a lucky letter in karma-land
17:31 whiteknight we should put in a filter to aloha to not recognize g++ and c++ for karma
17:32 cgaertner whiteknight: what's the problem with git on windows?
17:32 cgaertner 4msysgit compiles cleanly, and I didn't encounter any problems so far...
17:32 whiteknight cgaertner: it's not a very good port. You can't just use git, you need to use msysgit with a whole bunch of ports of various libraries
17:33 whiteknight cgaertner: any commandline program that has to ship with it's own command-line is suspicious
17:33 rohit_nsit08 joined #parrot
17:33 plobsing any OS that doesn't ship a decent command-line is equally suspicious
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17:34 whiteknight yes, that's true
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17:37 NotFound I'm tempted to write an announcement of Winxed 3D but it's too much work for such a bad joke.
17:38 sorear whiteknight: um, you know half of git is shell scripts?
17:38 plobsing NotFound: riding the coat-tails of xkcd? winxkcd?
17:38 NotFound plobsing: aye
17:42 cgaertner got to go again, but will probably lurk here most of tomorrow (and also finally write that proposal ;))
17:42 cgaertner left #parrot
17:44 * Coke doesn't think parrot ever needs another AFD joke, ever.
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17:54 whiteknight sorear: hence my point that git is not portable by design
17:55 lucian whiteknight: it's very portable, to posix
17:55 dukeleto git was written to be fast, not portable
17:55 lucian it's like saying firefox isn't portable because it doesn't run on my toaster
17:55 dukeleto people are attempting to make it portable now, with the appropriate amount of hilarity and tears
17:55 lucian dukeleto: meh, hg is just as fast and more portable
17:55 whiteknight lucian: That metaphore might work, if 90% of the world browsed the web using their toasters
17:55 dukeleto lucian: your opinion is greatly valued
17:56 whiteknight windows is not exactly some obscure programming platform
17:56 lucian dukeleto: heh
17:56 lucian whiteknight: toasters aren't obscure or rare either
17:56 whiteknight lucian: as platforms for web browsing they are
17:56 whiteknight just as many people develop software on and for windows as the alternative
17:56 whiteknight maybe more
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17:57 lucian whiteknight: that doesn't excuse the platform, really
17:57 NotFound I like toasters. Simple and intuitive design that remains useful for decades.
17:57 whiteknight I'm not saying it does. I'm not talking about the platform though. Git was designed either without the intention of moving it to windows, or with the intention to actually prevent that
17:58 whiteknight and if you're going to have a piece of software that doesn't run on the most common desktop OS, you can't claim a prize of portability
17:58 atrodo Now I'm hungry for some toast and jam
17:58 whiteknight atrodo: srsly
17:58 * lucian goes to have a hair cut
17:59 bubaflub i'm looking forward to the work on libgit2 being completed
17:59 bubaflub that should solve some of the mess
17:59 bubaflub and i've thought about maybe we need perl bindings for that
17:59 whiteknight yes, libgit2 is a very welcome addition
18:00 whiteknight bubaflub: we definitely need Parrot bindings for it
18:00 bubaflub whiteknight: well, i may learn a thing or two about bindings in the summer... opens up a world of fun for me
18:00 bubaflub whiteknight: but i'm also thinking Perl 5 bindings on CPAN would be useful.  whatever happend to the Perl5 - CTypes thing?
18:01 dukeleto bubaflub: yes! and we expect blog posts. One per week, or the tommyknockers will be deployed.
18:01 bubaflub dukeleto: or the dogs the shoot bees out of their mouths when they bark
18:01 NotFound One problem is that a lot of windows-only users are unreasonable. For example, I have a Basic interpreter declared and documented as line-oriented 80-style, and still people asks it it doesn't have a GUI.
18:03 cotto_work NotFound: the problem is that you're dealing with humans.
18:03 NotFound In fact, several even doesn't know that windows has a CLI. And some of them finally says "Oh, you mean the ms-dos window"
18:04 whiteknight :)
18:05 mikehh dukeleto: the test passes with an gcc --optimize build but I get t/src/extend_vtable.t - Failed test:  3 (segfaullt) gcc without --optimize)
18:06 NotFound cotto_work: I've always suspected that I'm a mutant, since I read my first x-men history.
18:10 mikehh dukeleto: I gett the following result with g++ (continuingfor all tests 1 thru 89):
18:10 mikehh # Failed to build 't/src/extend_vtable_1.o': t/src/extend_vtable.t: In function ‘void dotest(parrot_interp_t*, void*)’:
18:10 mikehh # t/src/extend_vtable.t:113:36: error: ‘Parrot_hash_new’ was not declared in this scope
18:10 mikehh # t/src/extend_vtable.t:117:50: error: ‘Parrot_key_new_integer’ was not declared in this scope
18:10 mikehh # t/src/extend_vtable.t:118:55: error: ‘Parrot_key_new_cstring’ was not declared in this scope
18:15 dukeleto mikehh: please open a TT with the full test output of extend_vtable.t . That will help me fix it, if someone doesn't beat me to it.
18:18 mikehh dukeleto: there are additional errors with test 5, 10, 15 and 16, the full output is rather long, but I'll give it a go
18:21 Tene I'm very hopeful about being able to work on Parrot this weekend.  Wish me luck.
18:23 mikehh Tene: good luck
18:24 Tene lucian: are you planning on sending me email today?
18:29 whiteknight Tene <-- Luck!
18:31 Tene whiteknight: thanks for the matt might link; looks fascinating
18:31 Tene Perhaps I'll spend the weekend reading that instead of working on cardinal 6model. ;)
18:33 whiteknight NOOOO!!!!
18:33 whiteknight :)
18:42 dalek winxed: r917 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
18:42 dalek winxed: use a specific class for try modifiers
18:42 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=917
18:43 lucian Tene: heh. perhaps. patience, grasshopper
18:43 * lucian has slept 12h+ last night
18:43 Tene lucian: 'k :)
18:43 lucian i probably had quite a bit to make up for
18:43 lucian Tene: you at work?
18:44 Tene yeah; afk now
18:45 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 17 commits to parrot/m0-spec by cotto
18:48 dalek Rosella: aac3e47 | Whiteknight++ | src/memoize/ (2 files):
18:48 dalek Rosella: Add in some stub files for a new memoization library.
18:48 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/aac3e47ed3
18:48 dalek Rosella: a036d9f | Whiteknight++ | s (3 files):
18:48 dalek Rosella: break Path into it's own library. It's sufficiently different from query that I shouldn't be lumping them
18:48 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/a036d9f3e1
18:48 dalek Rosella: 792fa09 | Whiteknight++ | src/memoize/Memoize.winxed:
18:48 dalek Rosella: Add in a Y-combinator variant with built-in memoization. Inspired by similar code at matt.might.net
18:48 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/792fa09faa
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18:51 tadzik lucian: you don't happen to read Usagi Yojimbo, do you?
18:51 lucian tadzik: greek to me
18:51 tadzik I guess "grasshoper" in this context i far more wide
18:52 lucian tadzik: i don't really know the origin of the phrase
18:53 lucian oh, from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_(TV_series). lame
18:53 lucian i'll stop saying that
18:54 tadzik :)
18:59 bubaflub whiteknight: i was just reading about the y-combinator
18:59 whiteknight it's fun, isn't it?
19:01 bubaflub going to ahve to read it multiple times
19:01 bubaflub i've done a bit of haskell and functional, but not really anything this deep
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19:03 * lucian doesn't really understand the Y combinator
19:04 whiteknight I don't have the link, but I read a great blog post about the derivation of the Y combinator in Perl that really was well-written
19:04 whiteknight that's what made it really click for me
19:04 bubaflub whiteknight: Y U NO HAVE LINK?
19:04 bubaflub whiteknight: just kidding, time to bust out my google-fu
19:05 lucian http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Y_combinator
19:05 whiteknight :) it was a long time ago.
19:05 bubaflub whiteknight: perhaps this one: http://use.perl.org/~Aristotle/journal/30896?
19:05 lucian bleh, the python example is disgusting
19:08 whiteknight bubaflub: yes, that's the one
19:08 whiteknight Way back when I was a gsoc student, I was doing my weekly blogging on use.perl
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19:44 * lucian just sent a mammoth email
19:44 dalek TT #2084 created by mikehh++: t/src/extend_vtable.t fails all tests with g++ build
19:44 dalek TT #2084: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2084
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19:47 atrodo cotto_work> ping
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20:00 whiteknight lucian++ for the email
20:01 whiteknight I certainly can't answer it myself, but I suspect you will see some good answers either way
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20:06 cotto_work atrodo: pong
20:06 atrodo cotto_work> I was curious why you deleted your work on the m0-asm
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20:07 cotto_work atrodo: it's a combo of my newbieness with nqp and nqp's speed
20:07 atrodo oh, wasn't working?
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20:07 cotto_work slow enough that it was a barrier to me caring to work on it
20:08 atrodo wow, that slow?
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20:08 cotto_work ~3 seconds to process a tiny file
20:08 atrodo wow!
20:10 cotto_work a large part was me being crabby and not wanting to deal with nqp
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20:21 lucian whiteknight: hopefully
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20:47 dalek tracwiki: v14 | bbatha++ | ParrotGSoC2011Students
20:47 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotG​SoC2011Students?version=14&amp;action=diff
20:47 dalek tracwiki: v15 | bbatha++ | ParrotGSoC2011Students
20:47 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotG​SoC2011Students?version=15&amp;action=diff
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22:09 whiteknight good afternoon, #parrot
22:09 bubaflub good afternoon whiteknight
22:10 whiteknight hello bubaflub
22:22 cotto_work hi whiteknight
22:24 Tene lucian: is there something special about attrs named __foo__?  could I override __dict__ on an object?
22:24 lucian Tene: nothing special about __foo__ in general, no. not sure if you can override __dict__ though, it may be a special case
22:25 Tene lucian: does the value in __dict__ contain itself in ['__dict__'] ?
22:26 lucian Tene: no
22:26 whiteknight http://www.ovni-alerte.com/blo​g/flash/scale-of-universe.swf
22:26 whiteknight *boggle*
22:26 Tene lucian: so... that's *not* the whole story for attributes then, no?
22:26 lucian Tene: no, i did say it's slightly wrong
22:27 Tene Oh, okay.
22:27 lucian i think mostly for implementation's sake, __dict__ is special
22:28 lucian but not very special
22:28 lucian it's a 'dictproxy' really, a proxy to the C-side dict
22:28 Tene oh, __dict__ only contains "user-provided attributes"
22:29 lucian Tene: yeah
22:29 lucian sort of
22:29 Tene oh, no, this guy is making up terms.
22:29 Tene http://www.cafepy.com/article/python_​attributes_and_methods/python_attribu​tes_and_methods.html#the-dynamic-dict
22:29 lucian Tene: also, i completely ignored properties
22:29 soh_cah_toa joined #parrot
22:30 lucian Tene: his explanation is mostly ok
22:30 lucian Tene: more precisely, __dict__ is that object's own attributes, discounting parents and so on (not entirely sure if there are any exceptions to this)
22:31 Tene ahh
22:31 Tene argh, afk, meeting
22:31 Tene anyway, yes, I think 6model could be very nice here.
22:31 Tene but... afk
22:31 lucian Tene: sure, ttul
22:33 lucian whiteknight: awesome, isn't it?
22:33 whiteknight lucian: mind-boggling
22:33 lucian they should show that in schools
22:33 whiteknight and to see everything included there, on a single scrollbar
22:33 whiteknight it's crazy
22:33 lucian first science/physics class
22:33 whiteknight I agree. My kid should see this.
22:33 lucian well, the scrollbar is logarithmic, isn't it?
22:34 lucian actually even worse
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23:03 soh_cah_toa am i able to further revise my proposal when i submit it through google-melange or is it final?
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23:07 lucian soh_cah_toa: can revise
23:08 lucian has an editor, also comments
23:08 pjcj left #parrot
23:08 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: yeah, you can edit it
23:08 soh_cah_toa okay, should i use google-melange then or gist?
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23:10 lucian soh_cah_toa: melange is safer, no risk of forgetting to submit :)
23:10 soh_cah_toa lucian: yeah, good idea
23:10 lucian also, final proposal will look better
23:10 lucian but that's just candy
23:11 soh_cah_toa yeah
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23:17 cotto_work +1 to using melange
23:23 dalek TT #2083 closed by jkeenan++: Reintroduce --cxx flag in Configure.pl
23:23 dalek TT #2083: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2083
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23:31 soh_cah_toa question - which is easier: writing documentation during design before coding or aftering coding?
23:32 soh_cah_toa not necessarily easier. just a better idea, i mean
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23:41 kid51 t/src/extend_vtable.t failing completely with all g++ build -- is that what others are seeing?
23:42 kid51 smolder probably needs restarting
23:48 bacek ~~
23:48 bacek <rant> why the heck getstd* in ops, but setstd* in dynops???</rant>
23:53 cotto_work bacek: whiskey tango foxtrot.  That's not sane.
23:55 whiteknight bacek: they all should be dynops
23:55 whiteknight or, they should be deleted
23:55 whiteknight ParrotInterp has those as methods
23:56 bacek whiteknight, anyway. We should split this set of ops.

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