Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-05-05

Parrot | source cross referenced

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00:50 cotto_work dukeleto++
00:50 cotto_work I never realized how much more readable single-line Perl 5 comments are with a space between the # and the comment
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00:56 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: 32b13d5 | cotto++ | src/m0/m0_interp.pl:
00:56 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: stub out more M0 interp code, parse the m0b header
00:56 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/32b13d5cc8
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00:59 cotto_work If someone's bored and wants to hack on something M0-related, the m0b (M0 bytecode) disassembler is unclaimed and both dukeleto++'s M0 assembler and my interp could use a higher bus number.
00:59 cotto_work just sayin'
01:01 whiteknight http://emotibot.net/index.p​hp?content=viewer&id=59
01:02 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: 8255ff1 | cotto++ | t/m0/test_file.m0b:
01:02 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: add a possibly-valid m0b file to git
01:02 dalek parrot/m0-prototype:
01:02 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: This is the result of running t/m0/m0bgen.t with the unlink line
01:02 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: commented out.  I can't guarantee that it's valid, but it at least seems
01:02 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: to have a good header.
01:02 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/8255ff11bb
01:02 cotto_work decommuting time
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01:17 plobsing msg kid51 I wonder if a change in the number of objects allocated at startup is changing the timings of GC and exposing GC-invariant-violations elsewhere. If this were the case, you might be able to duplicate the failures by configuring --without-core-nci-thunks and/or --without-extra-nci-thunks on master. It might also cause --without-extra-nci-thunks to move the failure points around on tt1931. Note however, that configuring without thunks does insert some
01:17 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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01:19 whiteknight failures that happen only on darwin/ppc are such a pain in the butt
01:20 whiteknight plobsing: Whereabouts do you live?
01:21 plobsing whiteknight: heh, I just read that part of the backscroll. I currently reside in Waterloo Ontario. The Whitehorse gig was short-term (but worthwhile, beautiful city).
01:21 whiteknight oh, okay. That's actually not so bad
01:22 whiteknight if we were to hold some kind of meetup or hackathon in the east coast area, what are the odds you could attend?
01:23 plobsing I can't promise anything, but I'll try.
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01:24 atrodo whiteknight: today i learned that phily is only 10 hours away
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01:24 whiteknight atrodo: fun. Where are you located?
01:24 atrodo whiteknight: Cincinnati
01:24 whiteknight plobsing: depending on who would be available/willing, we would try to find a suitable location
01:24 atrodo whiteknight: really easy drive too
01:25 whiteknight atrodo: My sister lives out by Indianapolis, so I
01:25 whiteknight ve made the drive through there severalt times
01:26 atrodo whiteknight: Through cinci?  That's kind of out of the way, isn't it?
01:26 whiteknight atrodo: She used to live down in Evansville, and we went through cinci
01:26 whiteknight now she lives near indianapolis, so we stay further north
01:26 plobsing argh. US geography is so hard! why can't you put all of your cities in a line so I can remember what is where?
01:27 atrodo whiteknight: that makes a lot more sense
01:27 atrodo plobsing: we do, it's called interstates
01:27 whiteknight plobsing: Yeah, I know. I had to pull up Google maps to remind myself where things were
01:28 whiteknight There are some things in this world I am good at, and other things I am very very bad at. Geography is something I am bad at
01:29 whiteknight along with soccer, anagrams, and listening to my wife
01:31 atrodo s/soccer/sports/, but you'll never get me to admitting that last one in public
01:32 plobsing atrodo: the interstate system seems like more of a mesh than a line to me.
01:33 atrodo plobsing: well, on the map it is, but in my head, they're all nice and straight connecting major cities
01:33 whiteknight plobsing: another fine example of a system which received far too little prior planning
01:33 whiteknight there is an "interstate" highway in hawaii, which I've always found hilarious
01:36 plobsing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi​le:Puerto_Rico_Interstates.svg
01:36 plobsing ENOTASTATE
01:36 whiteknight okay, that's even funnier
01:36 whiteknight no inter- and no -state
01:37 atrodo That is now my favorite interstate
01:39 cotto ~~
01:39 tcurtis ~~
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01:41 whiteknight goodnight
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02:30 * Coke grumbles. can't ssh in to my box at home from the outside world.
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03:52 cotto The next release announcement needs to come with a big musical number.
03:56 benabik cotto: I may regret asking, but why?
03:57 cotto no reason
03:57 cotto we just don't do enough of those
03:58 benabik Fair enough.  Well, you have most of a month to write lyrics.  :-D
03:59 cotto That's not going to be the hard part.
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05:20 cotto dukeleto, you around?
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07:06 cotto incoming!
07:06 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: 49f2db0 | cotto++ | t/m0/m0bgen.t:
07:06 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: fix bug in M0 bytecode tests
07:06 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/49f2db067f
07:06 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: e847905 | cotto++ | t/m0/test_file.m0b:
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: fix example test m0b file
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e8479051cd
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: 465f941 | cotto++ | src/m0/m0_interp.pl:
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: finish implementing m0b loading for prototype M0 interp
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/465f941bd0
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: e4842a8 | cotto++ | src/m0/m0_interp.pl:
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: actually store parsed data in the interp
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e4842a82a6
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: 9b72488 | cotto++ | src/m0/m0_interp.pl:
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: add a bunch of constants for the M0 interp
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/9b72488f18
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: 9c552f6 | cotto++ | src/m0/m0_interp.pl:
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: implement context initialization
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/9c552f6678
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: dcb5eb7 | cotto++ | src/m0/m0_interp.pl:
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: implement run_ops - It's alive!!!
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype:
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: The M0 interp now has the ability to either run noop or say_i from M0
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: bytecode.  It's nowhere near complete, but being able to run ops is shiny.
07:07 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/dcb5eb76a0
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10:07 bacek ~~
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11:16 bacek msg pmichaud Looks like gms behave much better on loaded systems (comparing to ms2). In the "perfect world" ms2 is slightly better (without is_pmc.patch for gms).
11:16 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
11:17 tadzik bacek: anything new about the amd64 regression?
11:17 bacek tadzik, it's not "regression"
11:17 bacek afaiu
11:18 tadzik I was just quoting you from parrot-tev
11:19 bacek If you are on amd64 you can try to compare parrot 3.3 with "is_pmc.patch" vs 3.0
11:19 tadzik how about comparing patched vs non-patched?
11:19 bacek big difference on my box
11:20 tadzik I'll try it out
11:20 bacek like 130s vs 180s on somehow loaded box
11:20 bacek or 80s vs 110s on totally free box
11:23 tadzik what takes 80s?
11:23 bacek gms
11:23 tadzik no no, fulltest of parrot?
11:25 nopaste "bacek" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "gms vs ms2 "bench"" (18 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/43565
11:25 bacek tadzik, see nopaste :)
11:26 tadzik oh, the building
11:26 bacek "core.pm" test
11:26 tadzik I'll give it a try
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11:41 tadzik heh, I patched Parrot with patch --dry-run and wonder why make doesn't want to rebuild anything :)
11:44 bacek :)
11:45 tadzik whoa, parse phase is 80 secs instead of 150
11:46 tadzik post is 30 instead of 110
11:46 nopaste "tadzik" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "building rakudo core.pm, with wonderpatch and without" (19 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/43566
11:47 tadzik so it's roughly 3 times faster
11:48 jnthn__ whoa!
11:48 jnthn__ That patch. I want it!
11:48 bacek tadzik, it depends on current load. But yes. Patched version should be faster on "loaded box"
11:49 tadzik well, I'm doing the usual desktop stuff. gtkabber, mutt, chromium, mpd
11:50 bacek jnthn__, http://groups.google.com/group/parrot-dev/attach​/831304f55ea6d281/is_ptr.patch?part=2&view=1
11:51 bacek I sent it to parrot-dev this morning. It will not help you anyway (afaiu).
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11:51 bacek jnthn__, just because it restores "expected behavior" of gms on "loaded systems"
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12:00 bacek tadzik, "chromium" is the "answer" :) Basically memory is highly fragmented during running of such apps. Patch is kind of "workaround" to avoid expensive checks in this case.
12:00 tadzik I see
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12:02 bacek tadzik, you did send your last mail to me only. Is it intentional?
12:03 tadzik bah, no
12:03 tadzik mutt--
12:04 tadzik there's a different keybinding for replying to a mailing lists, not really DWIM
12:05 bacek :)
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12:22 bacek Yay!
12:23 bacek just read pmichaud++ mail about performance of GMS with "is_ptr.patch"
12:25 jnthn__ yeah!
12:25 jnthn__ bacek++
12:25 tadzik awesome :)
12:27 bacek jnthn__, you will not have this improvements anyway :) GMS is already works fine on you box :)
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13:25 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
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13:39 coke_ seen rohit?
13:39 aloha Sorry, I haven't seen rohit.
13:40 coke_ seen rohit_nsit08?
13:40 aloha rohit_nsit08 was last seen in #parrot 19 hours 29 mins ago joining the channel.
13:40 coke_ Coke: I can't believe you haven't figured out your network problem yet. hoser.
13:42 coke_ msg rohit_nsit08 Arg. sorry if I screwed up the time zones.
13:42 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
13:50 coke_ Hey, who is my backup mentor with rohit?
13:51 whiteknight coke_: good question.
13:51 whiteknight we don't have them assigned for most projects yet
13:51 whiteknight coke_: I will probably play backup for his project
13:54 whiteknight That reminds me that I need to send out an email to parrot-dev asking for the remaining slots to be filled
13:54 whiteknight and if my student never comes back, I could play backup for a lot of projects
13:56 coke_ this is just a busy week for both rohit and me, I think. should settle down soon.
13:56 whiteknight it's okay, it's still early in the bonding period. What really matters is the time when coding starts
13:56 coke_ oh good. dodged that bullet.
13:56 whiteknight during that time, he should be much more available, at least
13:59 whiteknight coke_: Speaking of which, do you two have a meeting time figured out yet? I'd like to be available as best I can
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14:31 whiteknight msg cotto I've got mothers-day and house-hunting things to do this weekend. I'll be available Saturday and Sunday afternoon to chat. Is this still fine for you?
14:31 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
14:34 coke_ whiteknight: Apparently not - was trying for 930AM eastern today.
14:34 coke_ I'll cc you on the next email.
14:34 coke_ ... if I remember. ;)
14:36 whiteknight coke_: okay, thanks. It's no big deal, I'll try to follow along as best I can
14:36 whiteknight definitely let me know if you need anything. I'm really excited to see this project succeed
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15:29 rohit_nsit08 Coke: ping
15:30 rohit_nsit08 coke_: ping
15:32 coke_ Pong.
15:33 coke_ Actually in th emiddle of a phone conference at work right now, but can devote some cycles here. ;)
15:34 coke_ How's it going?
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15:55 rohit_nsit08 coke_: oh , hi! sorry went away for dinner
15:56 rohit_nsit08 coke_: work is going fine, ( some interruptions from practical exams though)
15:59 dukeleto ~~
15:59 * dukeleto makes breakfast
16:05 coke_ Ok - if you need any help with PIR, most folks in this channel can help or point at docs.
16:05 * coke_ is about to head out for gym and lunch, just so all meals are represented.
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16:10 cotto hio dukeleto
16:10 cotto whiteknight, I have little idea what I'll be doing this weekend.  I'll keep Sunday afternoon free if at all possible.
16:11 whiteknight ok
16:11 cotto I'm certain that Saturday won't work.
16:11 whiteknight that's fine
16:11 whiteknight my wife is under the weird impression that we need to see our mothers on mothers day
16:12 whiteknight I'm not sure that's how it works
16:14 dukeleto lulz
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16:18 cotto dukeleto, I made some changes to some parts of the M0 spec that affect the binary representation.  Sanity check requested.
16:19 cotto In the M0 interp I ended up ignoring the number of bytes in a segment and just used a count of the elements.
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17:15 cotto_work ~~
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17:19 dalek parrot: 04f0b74 | NotFound++ | src/call/ (2 files):
17:19 dalek parrot: replace 'const static' with 'static const' to avoid unhelpful warnings
17:19 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/04f0b7499a
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17:38 dukeleto cotto_work: ok, will take a look at recent spec changes
17:41 cotto_work dukeleto: thanks.  There's not too much to them.
17:43 plobsing dukeleto: you have access to a PPC machine through the gcc farm, correct? can you confirm that the tt1931-nci-parameters-deprecation works there?
17:46 dukeleto plobsing: possibly
17:47 * dukeleto looks at http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/CompileFarm
17:48 dukeleto plobsing: gcc40 seems to be what we want
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17:48 dukeleto benabik: top of the mornin'
17:48 benabik_ Greetings!
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17:51 benabik_ Got my paperwork into Google. :-) Now I'm trying to secure work for next year.
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17:54 dukeleto benabik_: when is your planned graduation date?
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17:54 benabik_ dukeleto: Spring next year, although that's higly dependent on thesis.
17:55 benabik_ (Which I don't even have a topic for yet.)
17:56 bubaflub benabik_: what is your field of study? (just curious)
17:56 benabik_ bubaflub: Computer Science, looking into language/compiler based thesis.
17:57 dukeleto benabik_: well, just as a thought, you could be part of GSoC next year too if you haven't graduated yet...
17:57 bubaflub benabik_: very cool.  my undergrad was math & computer science.
17:58 benabik_ dukeleto: Hopefully I'll be in transition to a PhD program and still eligible. :-D
17:58 dukeleto plobsing: i am cloning a fresh parrot.git onto the gcc40 ppc machine
17:58 dukeleto benabik_: sounds good to me
17:58 benabik_ dukeleto: (Assuming everyone still likes me in three months.)
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18:02 mikehh bubaflub: I have been penciled in as backup mentor on your GSoC project, need any help there just yell :-}
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18:02 bubaflub mikehh: great! once my finals are over i'll post an introduction and rough outline of what i plan to do for the project.
18:03 mikehh bubaflub: just been REFM on GMP, been a while since I worked on it :-}
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18:04 mikehh RTFM I should say
18:06 bubaflub mikehh: great.  i'm reading and working with GMP 5 and change but i believe it's backwards compatible back to two or three or so.
18:07 mikehh bubaflub: hot 4,3 installed in my system, but just downloaded the 5.0.1 tarball
18:07 mikehh got
18:17 * dukeleto hasn't played with GMP 5 yet
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18:17 dukeleto bubaflub: part of your gsoc proposal should specify which versions of GMP will be supported by the bindings
18:18 dukeleto bubaflub: not sure we know yet, but that is something we need to figure out
18:18 bubaflub dukeleto: yessir.  i need to research which versions are default on what systems.
18:18 bubaflub dukeleto: then match that up with our supported and popular systems.
18:18 dukeleto bubaflub: also, it may be a good idea to introduce yourself on the GMP developer list and tell them about your gsoc project
18:18 bubaflub dukeleto: ah, good idea.
18:19 dukeleto bubaflub: we should support 4.x-5.y, just not sure what x and y are
18:19 dukeleto bubaflub: GMP 3 is from last century, iirc. Let them have it
18:19 bubaflub dukeleto: ok.
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18:20 dukeleto bubaflub: do you have a github repo for the gmp stuff already?
18:20 dukeleto bubaflub: we are going to use github issues to keep track of stuff
18:20 bubaflub dukeleto: https://github.com/bubaflub/parrot-gmp
18:20 bubaflub i haven't added much of anything yet
18:20 dalek winxed: r973 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/basic/05new.t:
18:20 dalek winxed: some basic tests for operator new
18:21 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=973
18:21 dukeleto bubaflub: https://github.com/bubaflub/parrot-gmp/issues
18:21 bubaflub dukeleto++
18:22 dukeleto bubaflub: gh issues really help me focus
18:22 bubaflub dukeleto: same.  ticketing systems in general - just breaking stuff down.  always have a "what's next" so i never get lost
18:22 dukeleto bubaflub: https://github.com/GMOD/mimosa​/issues?labels=&milestone=
18:22 dukeleto bubaflub: that is an example the issues for one of my $work-related projects
18:23 dukeleto bubaflub: the colored labels really help
18:23 dukeleto bubaflub: you should create some labels for parrot-gmp
18:23 dukeleto bubaflub: when the time is right
18:24 dukeleto bubaflub: i also find that having a cache of easy tasks is good for when tuits are low. Fixing little things gives you the motivation to do bigger things
18:25 bubaflub dukeleto: absolutetly.
18:25 bubaflub dukeleto: i find my motivation drops when i get stymied by a big problem. tackling the small stuff is a great way to regain momentum
18:26 dukeleto bubaflub: https://github.com/bubaflub/parrot-gmp/issues/4
18:27 * dukeleto now has a place to put all his parrot-gmp ideas
18:27 dukeleto bubaflub: i used that same idea when writing Math::GSL
18:27 dukeleto bubaflub: i stole tests from the actual GSL test suite and dressed them up as Perl tests :)
18:28 bubaflub dukeleto: re issue 4: yes, but remember he (the author of Math::GMPz) has a crazy test suite and i tried to convince him to use Test::More he said no.
18:30 dukeleto bubaflub: sure. but we are using his tests as input and tranforming them into our own, so we can do what we want
18:30 dukeleto bubaflub: Test::More actually has horrible memory issues when you have more than a few thousand tests
18:30 bubaflub dukeleto: yep.  i'll take a look at it.  the more i can automate, the better
18:30 dukeleto bubaflub: because it keeps track of metadata about every test
18:31 benabik_ bubaflub: Laziness is a virtue for programmers.
18:31 dukeleto bubaflub: so it allocated many perl variables for every tests => huge memory use for > 10,000 tests or so
18:31 bubaflub benabik_: i keep trying to tell my wife that...
18:32 benabik_ bubaflub: Sadly, it doesnt seem to be a virtue for husbands. :,(
18:33 dukeleto benabik_: are you needing any guidance for gsoc-stuff, or are you still waiting on school to stop sucking up all of your time?
18:34 benabik_ dukeleto: Schhol, school, school, regrettably.  Have a paper and a project I'm still buried in.
18:34 dukeleto benabik_: no worries. when is school all done for you?
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18:35 benabik_ dukeleto: My last final is on the 20th, but most projects are due 16th.
18:40 benabik_ GTG
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19:09 dalek winxed: r974 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
19:09 dalek winxed: cosmetic changes
19:09 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=974
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19:23 dukeleto http://www.mirah.org : Subset of Ruby + static typing, on the JVM
19:24 cotto_work There's some interesting innovation happening using Ruby as a base.
19:24 cotto_work or "work" if "innovation" sounds too buzzwordy
19:25 theory left #parrot
19:28 PerlJam nice rotational symmetry
19:30 davidfetter ETOOCLEVER
19:30 PerlJam maybe it's meant to be a metaphor for their approach  :)
19:31 benabik ~~
19:33 * dukeleto is really loving http://new.leto.net:3000/project/parrot
19:35 cotto_work dukeleto: howcome I get two different user pics?
19:36 cotto_work look at 5/4
19:36 cotto_work but yes, it's very shiny.
19:36 cotto_work dukeleto++
19:37 NotFound cotto_work: since my office was given the name "Modernization and Innovation" I hate buzzwords even more.
19:37 mikehh hey I'm getting - HTTP CODE: 502 (Bad Gateway) - trying to send to smolder:
19:38 mikehh Could not upload report to Smolder at http://smolder.parrot.org
19:38 mikehh HTTP CODE: 502 (Bad Gateway)
19:38 cotto_work NotFound: innovate a new name
19:38 NotFound Our greatest innovation is: receiving things by email and sending it by fax to people that has email accounts.
19:38 mikehh I'm not getting this with any other link on the web, so I think smolder needs to be restarted
19:39 cotto_work dukeleto: is that site good for long-term hosting or should we stick it on x.parrot.org once the code is "ready"
19:39 cotto_work ?
19:39 NotFound Of course, we send the faxes by printing them in a multifunction machine, and sending them using that same machine.
19:40 dukeleto cotto_work: you committed with different email addresses
19:40 dukeleto cotto_work: it uses the gravatar for the email of the author in each commit
19:40 cotto_work oic
19:41 dukeleto cotto_work: that server is stable, but the name is temporary. http://jitterbug.leto.net:3000/ is a better name
19:41 mikehh and I don't have a problem connecting to parrot.org
19:41 dukeleto cotto_work: that is my new linode that I am transitioning to
19:41 dukeleto i would like jitterbug.parrot.org to redirect to that site, tho
19:42 dukeleto who can make jitterbug.parrot.org:80 -> jitterbug.leto.net:3000 ?
19:42 mikehh dukeleto: have you had any problems with smolder recently?
19:42 mikehh I can't upload smoke reports
19:43 dukeleto mikehh: i haven't been doing much smoldering lately. I set up the gcc compile farm smokers and forgot about them
19:43 dukeleto mikehh: smolder is very unstable. It has memory leaks, and the faster we submit smoke reports, the faster the memory leaks make it freak out
19:44 mikehh needs to be restarted
19:44 dukeleto mikehh: yeah
19:45 dukeleto whiteknight: parrot-instrument is on jitterbug: http://jitterbug.leto.net:30​00/project/parrot-instrument
19:45 mikehh was going to have a look at it, but had some problems setting up a smolder server on my system, so gave up, but need to try again
19:45 dukeleto whiteknight: let the FAIL flow
19:45 dukeleto mikehh: i gave up on smolder a long time ago
19:46 dukeleto i like the UI, and I like it's functionality, but the implementation is unsalveagable
19:46 cotto_work dukeleto: that bad?  It's a shame.
19:47 dukeleto cotto_work: i think it is more complicated than it needs to be. Also, it is written as a dynamic site, which makes it slow and memory-heavy.
19:47 cotto_work dukeleto: any idea when you'll have tuits to get the M0 assembler in working order?
19:47 dukeleto cotto_work: it could easily be a staticly-generated site with ajaxy-js for nice effects
19:48 dukeleto cotto_work: my development team does not give time estimates ;)
19:48 dukeleto cotto_work: i have been dealing with various meatspace things, and haven't had much time to hack since being home
19:48 cotto_work meatspace can be like that
19:48 dukeleto cotto_work: i have a design for the assembler written on paper
19:49 dukeleto cotto_work: so it is a Simple Matter of Programming to implement that
19:49 cotto_work dukeleto: great!
19:49 * dukeleto had vague plans to use "dia" to make a spiffy digital representation of the design
19:49 cotto_work I found the interp to be much easier after taking a few minutes to think through the design away from a computer.
19:50 dukeleto cotto_work: seeing your progress is answering many questions I had
19:50 cotto_work dukeleto: awesome.
19:50 dukeleto cotto_work: yep. I actually sat by the water in Bellingham in the sun and wrote out 80% of the assembler design.
19:51 Andy left #parrot
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19:52 * davidfetter got a SHODAN long ago, but lazed out for nidan
19:52 SHODAN pfft
19:59 * dukeleto goes to get his brand-spanking shiny new bicycle
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20:03 mikehh if I try to connect to http://smolder.parrot.org/ I get an Internal Server Error
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20:07 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (failed to upload) fulltest) at 3_3_0-87-g04f0b74
20:07 mikehh Kubuntu 11.04 amd64 (g++ --optimize)
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20:45 moritz rakudo's rand() seems to be always seeded with the same sequence
20:45 moritz rakudo: say rand, ' ', rand
20:45 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«3.90798504668055e-14 0.000985394674650308␤»
20:45 moritz rakudo: say rand, ' ', rand
20:45 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«3.90798504668055e-14 0.000985394674650308␤»
20:45 moritz rakudo: say rand, ' ', rand
20:45 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«3.90798504668055e-14 0.000985394674650308␤»
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20:46 moritz is that by design? (I kinda assume it uses parrot's PRNG under the hood)
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20:49 moritz nqp: say(pir::rand)
20:49 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n', expecting '('␤    in file '(file unknown)' line 31516452␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 31516546␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
20:49 cotto_work moritz: "design" is such a strong word.
20:50 KaeseEs is there an srand equivalent that needs to be called with some seed with entropy? or are those batteries supposed to be included
20:50 cotto_work It's an easy change to initialize a random seed from the system clock.
20:51 cotto_work KaeseEs: the rule of least surprise says that it should be included
20:52 cotto_work If predictable randomness is wanted, the seed can be re-initialized to a fixed value later.
20:52 KaeseEs 'predictable randomness' heh
20:52 KaeseEs i see what you mean, though.
20:53 * KaeseEs runs off to github to see what algo parrot's rand uses under the hood
20:55 benabik Rakudo appears to use parrot's rand__NN and srand__0I ops.
20:59 benabik Which in turn, uses Parrot_util_float_rand(), which uses _drand48(), which uses last_rand as a seed, which is never initialized.
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-spec: cbccffb | cotto++ | docs/pdds/draft/pdd32_m0.pod:
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-spec: define the global interp, make it accessible from a context
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-spec: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/cbccffb81c
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: 2faec3b | cotto++ | t/m0/m0bgen.t:
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: M0 bytecode test bugfix, make it runnable
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/2faec3b0f4
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: e65af83 | cotto++ | src/m0/m0_interp.pl:
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: make prototype M0 interp consistent with new M0 spec changes
21:01 dalek parrot/m0-prototype: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e65af83104
21:01 cotto_work We have passing tests!
21:02 plobsing Expecting the defaults to be appropriate to your application in a field as wide and varied as random numbers is not reasonable.
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21:15 PerlJam plobsing: I don't know  ... all HLLs seem to be the same "application" to me.  (they all have the same requirements for a random-number generator op)
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21:22 plobsing PerlJam: there are different levels or randomness acceptability and computational acceptability. these are frequently directly opposed.
21:26 NotFound Maybe the appropiate solution is to pick a default at random ;)
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21:41 cotto_work plobsing: do you think it's more reasonable to have a fixed random seed or to initialize it from the system clock?
21:42 plobsing repeatability has its merits
21:42 benabik Repeatability is generally not what you're looking for from a call to a RNG.
21:42 plobsing if you care enough to think that is wrong, you probably have a good idea of what your requirements are and to choose a solution that meets those
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21:48 NotFound Initializing rng from system clock may be a lot worse in this times of clouds and multicores than some years ago.
21:52 benabik NotFound: I'm not sure how that follows.  System clock is just to approximate "random starting seed".
21:52 dukeleto i created a ticket long ago called "parrot needs a source of entropy"
21:52 NotFound benabik: not so approximate when you can have lots of instances starting at the same time.
21:53 benabik NotFound: It's never been a _good_ starting seed.  Just good enough for basic usage.
21:53 cotto_work exactly
21:53 NotFound benabik: I didn't said that it was good at any time, just that it gets worse.
21:54 cotto_work I'm not sure if there's a reason we don't have proper entropy for any reason other than nobody having implemented it.
21:56 plobsing providing entropy for a general purpose VM is hard. again, it comes down to if you know enough to be worried about it, you know enough to do something about it.
21:57 NotFound Also, what to do if the underlying system doesn't have one.
21:57 plobsing NotFound: download some entropy from hotbits ;)
21:58 NotFound Pick a source of entropy at random.
21:58 cotto_work based on the system time?
21:58 cotto_work ;)
21:58 plobsing I'm sure some entroprising individual will solve the problem
21:58 NotFound Choose a clock randomly.
21:58 cotto_work What about a VM running outside of space/time?
21:59 NotFound No problem, black holes have entropy.
22:00 cotto_work dukeleto: if you're feeling lazy, you're welcome to steal code for the M0 assembler from t/m0/m0bgen.t.  It implements half of an assembler already.
22:00 cotto_work actually, factoring that code out into a separate reusable module would be even better.
22:00 benabik plobsing: OTOH, I could argue "if you want a repeatable PRNG, you know enough to do something about it."
22:01 cotto_work Though part of the point is that it's a completely independent self-contained m0b generator.
22:02 benabik If we're trying to make writing a dynamic language easy, why make using rand complicated?
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22:03 NotFound benabik: What's the complication?
22:03 plobsing benabik: random numbers are inheretently complex
22:03 dukeleto plobsing: no, they can be integers or floats too ;)
22:04 cotto_work groan
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22:04 NotFound benabik: even in the Sinclair ZX-81 basic, the simpler language with popular use I ever knew, you should random initialize the rng if you need to.
22:05 plobsing benabik: any default is either wrong for 99% of applications, or you don't care
22:05 cotto_work To be fair, I did change the behavior did change just after the 3.3 release.  I should have brought up the issue before pushing that commit.
22:07 cotto_work moritz: the answer seems to be that if Rakudo wants varying randomness, it should call srand with the system time (or something similar) itself.
22:07 benabik I'd think most people just blindly calling random want a random number, and not the same random number every time.
22:08 benabik But I don't really have time to argue this, I should have left 20m ago.
22:08 benabik And I appear to be outvoted.
22:08 cotto_work It strikes me as the less surprising behavior, but I don't mind either as long as it's documented and known.
22:09 NotFound Mandatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/221/
22:10 cotto_work xkcd is less fun now that it's been made mandatory.
22:10 plobsing I see repeatable PRNG as desirable for debugging and helping noobs (who are more likely to stick with the PRNG defaults in the first place)
22:11 NotFound I'm tempted to write a table with the ten mandatories xkcds.
22:11 plobsing cotto_work: xkcd appreciation is also mandatory. your violation has been reported.
22:11 cotto_work crud
22:12 cotto_work at least the arrest will be interesting
22:12 plobsing cotto_work: they may have height and width on you, but you can probably use depth to your advantage
22:14 NotFound May the depth be with you!
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23:02 whiteknight Tene++, kid51++
23:05 cotto_work hio whiteknight
23:05 whiteknight hello cotto_work
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23:19 dalek parrot/pdds_restart: a68d096 | Whiteknight++ | docs/pdds/ (40 files):
23:19 dalek parrot/pdds_restart: bump all pdds back to draft for now, so we can sort through them one at a time
23:19 dalek parrot/pdds_restart: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a68d09676a
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23:20 cotto_work whiteknight++
23:20 whiteknight it's a small, symbolic step
23:20 cotto_work and a non-null step
23:20 cotto_work pdd 0 would be a great place to start
23:21 mikehh joined #parrot
23:21 whiteknight cotto_work: I'm already working on it :
23:21 bubaflub left #parrot
23:21 whiteknight :)
23:22 bubaflub joined #parrot
23:23 plobsing we're going to draft new Perpetually Dated Documents? sweet!
23:24 cotto_work PDD 32 isn't dated ;)
23:24 cotto_work it's not complete either, though :(
23:24 whiteknight ideally, they can be sufficientl hand-wavey and vague that they are never technically "dated"
23:24 whiteknight :)
23:26 bacek_at_work ~~
23:27 cotto_work aloha: clock?
23:27 aloha cotto_work: LAX: Thu, 16:27 PDT / CHI: Thu, 18:27 CDT / NYC: Thu, 19:27 EDT / UTC: Thu, 23:27 UTC / LON: Fri, 00:27 BST / BER: Fri, 01:27 CEST / TOK: Fri, 08:27 JST / SYD: Fri, 09:27 EST
23:27 cotto_work good moring, bacek_at_work
23:28 cotto_work *morning
23:28 bacek_at_work aloha, cotto_work
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