Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-05-10

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:08 darbelo left #parrot
00:09 plobsing looks like bochs fits the bill, at least with emulated cpu speed, but could be a little slow
00:10 cotto_work how scriptable is ut?
00:10 cotto_work it
00:11 dukeleto ~~
00:11 cotto_work hio dukeleto
00:11 plobsing I don't think it has the convenience tools of more common virtualization solutions, but I'm not sure the more common solutions fit the task
00:12 cotto_work dukeleto: do you want all gsoc-related blogs to be mirrored on parrot.org or is it enough to make sure that anyone following p.o gets a link to any gsoc posts?
00:16 dukeleto cotto_work: i would like to have them mirrored on parrot.org, if possilbe
00:18 cotto_work dukeleto: ok
00:19 cotto_work soh_cah_toa has a separate blog partially set up that looks like it'll be much less annoying to read.  Something about parrot.org
00:19 bacek_at_work aloha, 15.16/14.73*100
00:19 aloha bacek_at_work: 102.919212491514
00:19 cotto_work 's blog layout makes it hard to read.
00:20 bacek_at_work msg pmichaud Test.pm from 04 is about 3% slower on "sin.t" test. 15.16 vs 14.73 on same build with just replaced Test.pm with 01's version.
00:20 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
00:21 * cotto_work heads out
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01:03 cotto ~~
01:16 woosley joined #parrot
01:32 benabik ~~
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02:22 * kid51 , sitting in airport, has 45 min of free wireless access.  Tell me what's new.
02:23 bacek_at_work kid51, you don't have your ppc box around, aren't you? :)
02:23 kid51 AAMOF, I do!
02:24 kid51 Will try to build master
02:25 bacek_at_work kid51, hooray! Thanks a lot.
02:47 kid51 bacek_at_work++
02:48 kid51 I just got past make on master on darwin/ppc
02:48 bacek_at_work kid51, yay! Thanks for testing it.
02:48 bacek_at_work kid51++
02:48 kid51 That's configuring with --cc=gcc --link=g++ --ld=g++ (i.e., my usual on this box)
02:49 kid51 I suspect smolder is still down, so I'll report any test failures tomorrow manually
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02:53 kid51 linux/i386: master:  a5aa34070: make test PASS with all g++ build
03:01 kid51 Ouch, on darwin I have test failures in t/compilers/pge/p5regex/p5rx.t
03:03 nopaste "kid51" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "t/compilers/pge/p5regex/p5rx.t: new failures on Darwin/PPC" (1098 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/44428
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03:05 kid51 And this is one of those things where the results of make test differ from prove
03:06 kid51 The test file exits successfully when run with either prove or perl t/harness; it's only under make test (here, make smolder_test) that it doesn't exit cleanly.
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03:09 * kid51 hates false negatives caused by the test apparatus itself
03:09 kid51 I think my time has run out
03:09 kid51 or is soon to.
03:10 theory left #parrot
03:10 kid51 Hey, free renewals!  SFO++
03:12 kid51 just got past t/compilers/opsc/*.t
03:15 kid51 perl t/harness --gc-debug t/compilers/pge/p5regex/p5rx.t also completes with successful exit
03:16 kid51 So why does 'make test' gag on that file, when that command is what 'make test' is doing at that moment ?
03:17 kid51 Well, apart from that problem, 'make test' now passes on darwin/ppc, master, a5aa34070f8
03:17 kid51 Beer
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03:31 dalek parrot: bb54311 | petdance++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
03:31 dalek parrot: const a local var
03:31 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/bb54311c67
03:31 dalek parrot: 718c7ec | petdance++ | / (2 files):
03:31 dalek parrot: Annotating some static functions, and consted a pointer
03:31 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/718c7ecc0d
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04:50 pmichaud latest test results for kiwi: https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench/blob/m​aster/results/kiwi-x86_64-201105100013.txt
04:50 pmichaud I'm having to re-do plum because of an error in rakudo-bleed.  And orange is cranking away on the numbers but still a couple of hours from finishing.
04:57 pmichaud bacek_at_work++   # nice catch on Test.pm.  I'm guessing it's the !~~ NaN test that is slowing things down
04:58 pmichaud 23:43 <plobsing> you could trigger alerts about degrading performance AS THEY HAPPEN, in stead of 4 months later when someone notices
04:59 pmichaud it shouldn't be "4 months later" any more.  Now that I have a decent framework set up, I expect to be running these tests at least monthly, and likely more often
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05:13 pmichaud bacek_at_work: I can confirm what you're seeing -- the Test.pm change accounts for about 4% difference in sin test
05:20 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/963931
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07:00 pmichaud msg bacek_at_work I've updated rakudo master to have a faster Test.pm again... results are in http://gist.github.com/964026.  If we can get the is_ptr.patch (or its equivalent) applied to the Parrot master branch then we might see bigger improvement in sin test
07:00 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
07:05 bacek_at_work ~~
07:05 bacek_at_work pmichaud, is_ptr is already applied to master. Plus few other tune-up patches.
07:05 pmichaud hmmmm
07:06 pmichaud I wonder why rakudo-bleed is slower than 3.3.0-p2 then
07:06 bacek_at_work mm... May be there is other slowdowns in parrot between 3.3 and HEAD.
07:07 bacek_at_work but it's without whiteknight's patch.
07:07 pmichaud well, earlier benchmarks showed little difference from whiteknight's patch
07:08 pmichaud and I say "whiteknight's patch", but it's really the updated version you sent me
07:08 pmichaud (the one that would apply on top of 3.3.0-p1
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07:09 bacek_at_work what is parrot's version in rakudo-bleed?
07:09 pmichaud it's at the bottom of the report now :-)
07:09 pmichaud RELEASE_3_3_0-186-g718c7ec
07:10 bacek_at_work hmm...
07:10 pmichaud it really is "bleed" -- i.e., rakudo master head and parrot master head  :)
07:10 bacek_at_work it's really-really bleed :)
07:11 pmichaud I also have a rakudo-master build that tests rakudo master head (against its desired PARROT_REVISION)
07:11 pmichaud anyway, the logs + reports now provide the version information :)
07:12 pmichaud so yes, something must've slowed down parrot again.  Maybe I'll bisect a bit
07:13 bacek_at_work can you test "core.pm" and "rx.t" on 2011.01, 2011.04* and -bleed? Same as sin.t from  http://gist.github.com/964026
07:13 pmichaud sure
07:14 bacek_at_work thanks!
07:14 pmichaud all of the .04's?
07:14 pmichaud yeah, guess we want them all
07:14 pmichaud testing
07:32 pmichaud results of first trial:  http://gist.github.com/964042
07:34 bacek_at_work Yay! Same speed as 3.0!
07:34 bacek_at_work Sigh...
07:34 bacek_at_work I have to come with some tuning strategy for GMS for bigmem boxes.
07:35 pmichaud I'm not sure it's the memory size
07:35 pmichaud because orange (with 4MB) doesn't show as big an improvment as plum (with 3MB)
07:35 pmichaud although I guess that could be because orange has bigger memory than plum
07:36 pmichaud but I don't tend to think of 4MB as being all that "bigmem" anymore :)
07:36 bacek_at_work it's actually GB, not MB :)
07:36 pmichaud okay, GB
07:36 bacek_at_work are they both amd64?
07:36 pmichaud well, both 64-bit, yes.
07:36 bacek_at_work oookey
07:36 pmichaud everything I'm running is 64-bit
07:40 bacek_at_work looks like easiest solution for me is to buy 4 gigs upgrade for my laptop.
07:41 bacek_at_work because on 32bits, 2GB gms is always faster than ms2. By at least 30%...
07:42 pmichaud itym 2011.01
07:42 pmichaud instead of ms2
07:42 bacek_at_work ms2-2011.01 vs gms-master
07:43 bacek_at_work not ms2-master
07:43 pmichaud right
07:43 pmichaud I could try a set of marks on kiwi with memory limited to 2GB
07:44 bacek_at_work pmichaud, you can use parrot's master with "--gc-nursery-threshold 0.5"
07:45 bacek_at_work which should get same results as limiting to 2G.
07:46 bacek_at_work I suspect that nursery generation is too large on 8G.
07:46 pmichaud well, except we'd be comparing 2011.01 8G with bleed 2G
07:46 pmichaud but yes, I can try that if you wish.
07:50 pmichaud pmichaud@kiwi:/zip/perl/rakudo-bleed-nursery/parrot$ perl Configure.pl --optimize --gc=gms --gc-nursery-threshold=0.5 --prefix=/zip/perl/rakudo-b​leed-nursery/parrot_install
07:50 pmichaud Invalid option "gc-nursery-threshold". See "perl Configure.pl --help" for valid options
07:50 pmichaud ...did I misspell it?
07:50 bacek_at_work Yes, sorry.
07:50 bacek_at_work It's --gc-nursery-size. And it's runtime config only.
07:50 pmichaud oh, ouch.
07:51 pmichaud so, maybe I try the limit to 2GB option.
07:51 bacek_at_work something like "/usr/bin/time ./parrot_install/bin/parrot perl6.pbc --target-pir src/gen/core.pm > src/gen/core.pir" will give good indication
07:52 bacek_at_work I think it should be something like 60s on kiwi
07:56 pmichaud well, I also have to get the correct perl6.pbc
07:56 pmichaud ah, src/gen/perl6.pbc should be okay
08:02 pmichaud w/o --gc-nursery-size:  65.9 sec
08:02 pmichaud w/  --gc-nursery-size:  74.6 sec
08:02 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/964072
08:05 bacek_at_work Sigh. I was wrong with my assumption.
08:06 nopaste "tadzik" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "build fail" (13 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/44459
08:06 tadzik ideas?
08:06 pmichaud make realclean
08:06 tadzik did that
08:07 pmichaud I had that error earlier, also
08:07 tadzik now trying make -j1
08:07 moritz git clean -xdf # attention, cleans all files not under version control
08:07 pmichaud either "make realclean" or re-cloning a new repo fixed it for me
08:07 tadzik aw
08:07 bacek_at_work tadzik, "make reconfig"?
08:07 tadzik bacek_at_work: does a fresh 'perl Configure.pl' count?
08:07 pmichaud try what moritz++ said
08:07 bacek_at_work tadzik, nope without make realclean :)
08:08 tadzik will try
08:08 pmichaud anyway, I _did_ see that same error about an hour ago and was able to resolve it by doing some cleaning operation
08:08 tadzik bacek_at_work: realclean, then Configure, then make, that's my workflow in situations like this
08:08 tadzik Ok, I'll try with -fdx after -j1
08:08 pmichaud sometimes realclean isn't
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08:09 tadzik isn't real-y-cleaning everything? :)
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08:09 pmichaud Correct.
08:09 tadzik Warning: Building a shared parrot library may conflict with your previously-installed /home/tadzik/src/rakudo/parr​ot_install/lib/libparrot.so
08:09 tadzik ......yes.
08:09 tadzik maybe removing parrot_install too?
08:09 moritz aye
08:09 pmichaud yes, I did that too.
08:10 pmichaud time for sleep here
08:10 tadzik it's quite similar to 'turn it off and on again' in some sense
08:10 pmichaud omgitz3am
08:11 tadzik omgitz10am
08:11 * pmichaud didn't realize it was so ... early
08:11 tadzik I would be waking up now if it wasn't for this Java exam :)
08:12 tadzik nah, git clean -fdx and removing parrot_install didn't help either
08:12 tadzik crap
08:12 moritz that is unusual
08:12 pmichaud afk # sleep
08:12 tadzik sleep tight
08:13 tadzik I wonder how many patches-I-forgot-about are now lost :)
08:15 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, make world/make test, fulltest) at 3_3_0-186-g718c7ec
08:15 mikehh Ubuntu 11.04 amd64 (g++)
08:17 mikehh and smoke is still not available
08:18 mikehh it needs to be re-started
08:27 tadzik bah, I can't possibly build parrot
08:41 mikehh tadzik: did you make sure your installed files were removed, sometimes it picks up the wrong stuff if something is installed
08:42 mikehh that is when you build
08:43 tadzik I'm pretty sure I cleaned up everything. But I must be wrong somewhere it seems
08:45 nopaste left #parrot
08:45 mikehh tadzik: I tend to work with an install directory under $HOME and delete its contents before doing a build (when I use --prefix in the build)
08:45 mikehh and don't do an install to /usr/local
08:46 mikehh tadzik: what platform are you on
08:47 tadzik linux, amd64
08:47 tadzik mikehh: prefix here too
08:47 tadzik perl Configure.pl --prefix=/home/tadzik/src/rakudo/parrot_install --optimize --gc=gms
08:48 nopaste joined #parrot
08:48 bacek ~~
08:49 mikehh tadzik: is there anything in /home/tadzik/src/rakudo/parrot_install
08:49 mikehh hi bacek
08:49 bacek aloha, mikehh.
08:49 tadzik mikehh: nope, removed that too
08:51 mikehh tadzik: hmmn - looking at your nopaste it seems it could not find libpcre
08:51 moritz is that a requirement?
08:52 tadzik mikehh: 8.12 is installed I think
08:52 tadzik yes it is
08:52 tadzik and I don't think I updated it before
08:53 moritz which OS?
08:54 moritz you probably need the development/header files too, not just the library itself
08:54 mikehh tadzik: dunno, I tend to build and test perrot, and then test rakudo using that prefix on the rakudo config
08:56 mikehh tadzik: did it build before? otherwise check your libpcre-dev is there
08:58 mikehh tadzik: with a new install (as in Ubuntu 11.04) parrot needs a bunch of -dev libraries
09:01 tadzik no -dev packages on gentoo
09:01 tadzik I get this strange feeling that a reboot will help
09:02 mikehh I install libicu-dev, libpcre-dev, libpq-dev, libgmp-dev, libgdbm-dev, freeglut, etc.
09:03 mikehh tadzik: haven't used gentoo for a while
09:04 tadzik mikehh: I never had problems with missing dependencies of parrot
09:07 tadzik damnit!
09:08 mikehh tadzik: maybe your env has got messed up
09:08 tadzik hmm
09:11 mikehh dammit - some $work issues - bbl
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09:13 tadzik 3.3.0 built from the repo
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09:55 bacek moritz, ping
09:55 moritz bacek: pong
09:56 bacek moritz, how much memory do you have on your box?
09:56 moritz bacek: the one where I did my performance tests has 6 gig, IIRC
09:57 moritz it's currently switched off and 6 km away, so I can't look it up
09:57 bacek moritz, sigh...
09:57 moritz but it's > 4G for sure
09:57 bacek Do you have any other 64bits, 4G+ boxes around?
09:58 moritz one, but it's virtual, and has changing load
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: af9f158 | bacek++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: Rename gc_threshold to nursery_size to reflect semantics closely.
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/af9f158cc0
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: 9b5bc46 | bacek++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: Factor out gc_gms_calculate_thresholds for calculating per-generation thresolds.
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/9b5bc46b17
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: 7b1c833 | bacek++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: Change logic of triggering of old generation collecting based on allocated memory.
09:58 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/7b1c833fa4
09:59 bacek moritz, ookey. Unping then :)
09:59 * moritz feels the ICMP fade away
10:00 moritz ... must ... resist
10:01 bacek Quick! Someone! Send moritz few ICMP packets! They are burning in his firewall!
10:02 bacek Or, actually, someone on 64 bits linux with 4G+ of memory test performance of gc_tuning branch :)
10:04 tadzik yeah, I'd love to, shame my parrot cannot build
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10:06 bacek tadzik, still problem with pcre?
10:06 tadzik aye
10:06 tadzik it's driving me nuts
10:07 bacek tadzik, did you try to Configure.pl --without-pcre?
10:08 bacek You probably have way too different pcre version of your box which can such problems.
10:10 tadzik different than what?
10:10 tadzik I have 8.12
10:10 bacek oh ho.
10:10 tadzik oh, gentoo ebuild uses --without-pcre
10:11 tadzik there we are. Too new?
10:11 bacek No. I have same version here.
10:12 tadzik and it builds?
10:12 bacek yes
10:12 tadzik madness
10:12 bacek but it's on Debian
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10:12 bacek Maybe gentoo builds pcre in very strange way?
10:12 tadzik I've updated pcre on 1301815929
10:13 tadzik whatever time it is :)
10:13 moritz perl -wE 'say scalar localtime 1301815929'
10:13 moritz Sun Apr  3 09:32:09 2011
10:14 bacek just out of curiosity:
10:14 bacek rakudo: say scalar localtime 1301815929
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10:14 p6eval rakudo 065788: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &localtime␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/EqpwWNl4BL␤»
10:15 moritz rakudo: say DateTime.from-posix(1301815929)
10:15 p6eval rakudo 065788: OUTPUT«Method 'from-posix' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/qxEvnZHCz7␤»
10:16 moritz rakudo: say Instant.from-posix(1301815929)
10:16 p6eval rakudo 065788: OUTPUT«Instant:2011-04-03T07:32:09.000000Z␤»
10:16 tadzik yay, parrot built!
10:17 bacek moritz, looks like LTA bug :)
10:18 moritz bacek: the class ''? yes, known
10:18 moritz fixed in 6model!!!!
10:18 bacek moritz, yes, this one.
10:18 tadzik :)
10:18 moritz erm, I hope :-)
10:18 tadzik is it>? :)
10:18 tadzik I think I remember complaining about this :)
10:21 tadzik yay, rakudo building is Fast now
10:21 tadzik or faster
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10:24 bacek aloha, (40_974_071_721 / 4_882_147_998)
10:24 bacek aloha, (40974071721 / 4882147998)
10:24 aloha bacek: 8.39263204183594
10:24 bacek aloha, (4882147998/40974071721) / 40974071721 * 100
10:24 aloha bacek: 2.90798856181343e-10
10:25 bacek aloha, (4882147/40974071) / 40974071
10:25 aloha bacek: 2.90798806970837e-09
10:25 bacek aloha, (4882147998/40974071721) / * 100
10:25 bacek aloha, (4882147998/40974071721) * 100
10:25 aloha bacek: 11.9152131895591
10:25 bacek ookey.
10:26 bacek msg pmichaud sin.t test isn't dominated by gc. Less 12% spent in gc_gms_mark_and_sweep.
10:26 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
10:28 tadzik bacek: gc_tuning makes the bunny cry. At least when I did git co && make, without make clean
10:29 bacek tadzik, how bad is it?
10:29 tadzik I'll paste it in a second
10:30 bacek ok
10:34 tadzik basically, I'm killing the core.pm compiling because it takes too long already
10:34 bacek nice...
10:34 tadzik plus it's now 30% of my 2 GB memory
10:34 bacek I'm doing something wrong.
10:34 tadzik and counting, like 1.5 MBs per second
10:35 bacek interesting. It build in same time on my box (master vs gc_tuning)
10:36 bacek afk # time to make some dinner.
10:36 tadzik either nopaste is dead or I pasted on a wrong channel
10:36 tadzik bacek: http://nopaste.snit.ch/44460
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11:51 mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, make world/make test, fulltest) at 3_3_0-186-g718c7ec
11:51 mikehh Kubuntu 11.04 amd64 (g++ --optimize)
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12:01 bacek tadzik, ookey. I have to look at it more.
12:14 mtk joined #parrot
12:27 mikehh bacek: ping
12:29 bacek mikehh, pong
12:30 mikehh just built parrot on Kubuntu amd64 using g++ --optimize --buildframes and it seems to build rakudo quite a bit faster
12:31 bacek on master?
12:31 mikehh yes
12:31 bacek how much memory on your box?
12:32 mikehh 8GB
12:32 bacek iiiinteresting
12:32 bacek can you compare "core.pm" build time between 3.3 and master?
12:33 bacek may be using pmichaud++ rakbench
12:34 mikehh ok, will give it a go, take a while though
12:35 bacek mikehh, thanks a lot! I'll fell asleep soon. Just msg me. I'll backlog anyway :)
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13:02 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
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13:05 * coke_ hopes that jnthn++'s nqp updates will obviate some of the pain in compiling the core.
13:08 jnthn__ coke_: Should already be saving a couple of gc-ables per cursor and maybe 3 per match object.
13:09 jnthn__ That's gotta help some. :)
13:10 moritz ... except that the pain now is that the compilation fails :-)
13:10 * bacek finally built "core.pm" with valgrind
13:10 jnthn__ moritz: :P
13:11 bacek aloha, 23124/191599*100
13:11 aloha bacek: 12.0689565185622
13:12 bacek looks about allright. Only about 12% of time spent in GC. Everything else is elsewhere
13:12 bacek Including "GC pressure"
13:12 jnthn__ bacek: Any obvious hotties?
13:12 jnthn__ bacek: Does find_lex stuff show up pretty high?
13:12 bacek jnthn__, 75M gcable
13:13 jnthn__ bacek: We *create* 75 million gcables?
13:13 bacek Yes
13:13 jnthn__ Whoa.
13:13 moritz and how many are GCed?
13:13 bacek PCC suck big time
13:13 jnthn__ moritz: I hope, the majority ;)
13:13 bacek "fill_params" consume about same as GC
13:14 jnthn__ bacek: whoa!
13:14 * moritz cries 'PCC refactor' and waves his arms frantically
13:14 bacek 22713M vs 24162M on fill_params vs gs_maybe_mark_and_sweep
13:14 * moritz gets odd looks from his cow-orkers
13:31 bacek Screenshot of kcachegrind https://picasaweb.google.com/1138058490​19900229975/CorePm#5605078853114370930
13:31 bacek I can upload original callgrind.out somewhere if someone what to look at it.
13:35 jnthn__ bacek: What's the runops'2 right at the top? The actual ops that are called?
13:36 bacek jnthn__, number of ops executed. Just simple "while(op) { DO_OP() }"
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13:36 jnthn__ ok
13:37 bacek and we actually spent most of the time executing ops :)
13:37 jnthn__ What's the Parrot_object_get... that's truncated?
13:37 bacek _attr_str.
13:38 bacek About 5% of time spent in Parrot_Object_get_foo
13:38 jnthn__ Wow.
13:38 bacek Parrot_Object_get_bool actually.
13:39 jnthn__ ah, OK...that's less surprising.
13:39 bacek Which redispatch to ext_call
13:39 jnthn__ Yeah
13:39 jnthn__ I know which one that is.
13:39 jnthn__ I've got that path more optimal in new nqp.
13:52 bacek anyway. Bed time
13:52 bacek g'night humans
13:55 Coke left #parrot
14:04 coke_ I realllly do not understand the "module deps are bad" CPAN camp.
14:04 soh_cah_toa left #parrot
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14:18 whiteknight I've been kicking around some PCC refactor ideas to help alleviate some of these performance problems
14:18 whiteknight Maybe we need to turn that into a priority
14:18 whiteknight I'm convinced that the way we do calls from end-to-end, with signature arrays and big loops is a huge problem
14:22 whiteknight the numbers would seem to suggest that this might not be far from the truth
14:23 ambs left #parrot
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14:28 pmichaud good morning, #parrot
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14:36 whiteknight good morning, pmichaud
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14:38 dalek winxed: r995 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
14:38 dalek winxed: function calls by qualified name
14:38 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=995
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14:44 pmichaud msg bacek results of rakbench on kiwi with 2GB memory: https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench/blob/m​aster/results/kiwi-x86_64-201105100844.txt
14:44 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
14:45 pmichaud summary:  gms wins for core.pm and rx tests; ms2 (both 2011.01 and 2011.04-p3-ms2) wins all others
14:50 pmichaud oh, 2011.01 (ms2) didn't win pickwords.p6.  but patched 2011.04 (ms2) did.  same for atan2.
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15:05 pmichaud is the "standard procedure" that a git pull should always be followed by "make reconfig"?
15:05 pmichaud (or some other invocation of Configure.pl?)
15:05 cotto depends on which files have changed
15:05 cotto that's the safe approacj
15:05 cotto approach
15:06 pmichaud I just noticed that git_describe doesn't get updated unless Configure.pl is re-run
15:06 moritz me too. That's inconvenient
15:06 cotto quite
15:06 pmichaud can I file that as a tracbug?
15:07 moritz sure
15:07 cotto +1
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15:10 cotto unfortunately config_lib.pir is generate at configure-time, so a compile-time addition is bound to be a bit hacky
15:11 moritz how did we do it with svn version numbers?
15:11 cotto good question.  probably the same way
15:12 pmichaud rakudo solves the problem by generating the value at make time
15:12 pmichaud it's then simply done as a .include into rakudo's source
15:13 pmichaud i.e., rakudo's source has    .include 'src/gen/version.pir'
15:13 pmichaud and version.pir is generated with   .macro_const RAKUDO_VERSION "..."
15:13 atrodo_ whiteknight++
15:13 cotto I like that.
15:13 cotto thanks
15:13 atrodo_ whiteknight> Wow, vtable is THAT expensive?
15:17 whiteknight atrodo_: yessir
15:18 whiteknight atrodo_: and even though method dispatch is not nearly so bad, it's still way worse that it should be
15:18 whiteknight so methods are bad. vtable overrides are worse
15:18 atrodo_ is now known as atrodo
15:18 pmichaud TT #2106
15:18 moritz pmichaud++
15:21 benabik Trac is working again?
15:25 dalek TT #2106 created by pmichaud++: git_describe configuration value not correct
15:25 dalek TT #2106: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2106
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15:44 atrodo whiteknight> I remember chromatic commenting about exactly that about a year ago
15:49 benabik whiteknight: Your "6model post from a few days ago" link in your latest bloginess is broken.
15:51 dod left #parrot
16:06 coke_ pmichaud: see TT#1884.
16:07 pmichaud maybe I should add a pair of "see also" links to those
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16:12 jnthn__ whiteknight: fwiw, see how 6model implements Parrot v-table overrides.
16:12 jnthn__ whiteknight: Highlight: it's all pointer following.
16:18 cotto msg kid51 tt #2106 (calculating git_describe and sha1 at compiletime) seems right up your alley.  If you're interested, great.  If not, let me know and I'll take it.
16:18 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
16:18 cotto I also seem to remember chromatic mentioning that.
16:23 dalek winxed: r996 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
16:23 dalek winxed: look for non qualified subs in surrounding namespaces
16:23 dalek winxed: review: http://code.google.com/p/w​inxed/source/detail?r=996
16:25 dukeleto left #parrot
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16:26 pmichaud where do I find the current list of deprecations?
16:26 cotto api.yaml
16:26 tadzik yay it's useful
16:28 theory left #parrot
16:29 whiteknight I'm happy that people are reading my blog! I just wish they would find fewer problems with it
16:29 whiteknight :)
16:30 cotto whiteknight, don't make mistakes
16:30 cotto easy peasy
16:30 cotto ;)
16:31 plobsing any word from OSU about when Trac is going to be fixed?
16:33 pmichaud parrot no longer randomizes at startup :-(
16:35 benabik It was initializeed by the string hashing code, removed in 31ca512cd16606923626a59f9b29de6e43a3f768
16:35 pmichaud shouldn't this need a deprecation notice or something?
16:36 pmichaud I mean, it's a significant change to HLLs
16:36 pmichaud this is almost exactly the sort of thing that will cause major failures for downstream users
16:36 cotto It needed more discussion than I gave it.
16:37 jnthn__ s/will cause/caused/, if "caused a user to file a regression" counts
16:37 pmichaud if the rand dynop suddenly starts producing the same sequence on every run (where it didn't before).... that's a pretty serious change.
16:38 pmichaud I thought the point was to not surprise the users.
16:38 cotto I'll fix it.
16:38 pmichaud although, on the other hand, as long as it's fixed by 3.6.0, I guess it's not a violation yet.  :-)
16:41 pmichaud having read the discussion from 05-05-11, I'd like to point out that there are intermediate positions between "always produce the same sequence of numbers" and "I need a really good source of entropy"
16:41 cotto done
16:42 dalek parrot: 1a926ea | cotto++ | src/interp/inter_create.c:
16:42 dalek parrot: seed the prng from the system clock during interp initialization
16:42 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/1a926ea51a
16:42 pmichaud cotto++  # thanks
16:43 cotto pmichaud, how did that cause test failures?
16:44 pmichaud it didn't cause test failures
16:44 pmichaud it caused a regression bug to be reported
16:44 cotto ok
16:44 pmichaud i.e.,  Perl 6's  .pick()  method no longer functioned the same as in previous releases
16:44 pmichaud (because it always produce the same results from one run to the next)
16:44 pmichaud *produced
16:51 pmichaud I should also note that integer time can be a very poor choice of hash seed.  I know you know this already, but there's a story behind it
16:51 pmichaud in the early 1990s, I was called as an expert witness for several cases
16:52 pmichaud the county had installed a new jury selection system a couple of years previous
16:52 pmichaud and then they noticed that the same people were being called to serve together on juries
16:52 pmichaud i.e., people who had been together on a jury panel in 1991 were finding themselves on another panel a year later
16:53 pmichaud (finding themselves together on a new panel, that is)
16:53 pmichaud so I got called in to analyze the jury selection code
16:53 pmichaud and they created a "random number generator" based on clock time
16:54 pmichaud but they failed to recognize that since they were processing several hundred records per second, that all of those records would be calculating a "random number" based on the same clock time
16:54 tadzik that won't be a problem if they were using Rakudo :P
16:55 pmichaud it would be with the parrot change that cotto just fixed :) :)
16:55 jnthn__ pmichaud: No, it coudln't process several hundred per second. :P
16:55 pmichaud heh
16:55 pmichaud there were tons of other problems as well
16:56 pmichaud for example, the programmers assumed that hash keys were good sources of entropy/randomness
16:56 pmichaud (i.e., the hash value that is used to take a key, such as a voter registration number, and put it into a hash bucket)
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16:58 cotto pmichaud, that sounds like quite a mess
16:58 pmichaud it was
16:58 PerlJam pmichaud: you left out the "best" part
16:58 pmichaud PerlJam: feel free to add it :)
16:58 cotto I have a ticket open for a proper source of entropy, but it hasn't been magically fixed.
16:58 PerlJam and it was all written in COBOL!   :)
16:58 pmichaud yes, it was written in COBOL
16:59 pmichaud the programmers' defenses were... amusing.
16:59 tadzik defenses?
16:59 pmichaud they were trying to prove that their program was sufficiently random
16:59 pmichaud but after my first day of testimony, they basically threw out the jury selection program they had and started an "emergency procurement" for a new one
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17:00 pmichaud the lawyers had a field day after that... everyone who had lost a case during the previous two years wanted to appeal based on improper jury selection
17:01 tadzik d'oh
17:01 jnthn__ ouch!
17:01 pmichaud especially since the selection program tended to choose jurors from the same "sections" of the database
17:01 cotto that'd hurt almost as much as writing the system in the first place
17:01 pmichaud i.e., there was locality in the sets of jurors that were being created
17:01 pmichaud so, you might get a set of jurors who had all registered to vote in the same month
17:02 pmichaud or you could get a set of jurors whose last names all came from the first half of the alphabet
17:02 tadzik ow
17:03 tadzik that's quite serious
17:03 pmichaud and since the county was 50% hispanic... and they tended to have very common surnames.... there would be some panels that would be completely hispanic or completely non-hispanic   (more often than a true random selection would admit)
17:04 pmichaud anyway, my reward was (1) a nice set of expert witness fees
17:05 pmichaud (2) I started being picked for jury duty.  Apparently a flaw in the previous system prevented my record from ever being chosen for jury duty service.  :-)
17:05 tadzik :D
17:05 tadzik I'm waiting for (3) I had a pleasure to write the system in Perl :)
17:06 pmichaud noway
17:06 pmichaud the computer staff at the county did not like me much after that.
17:06 tadzik (:
17:07 plobsing (re: (2)) no good deed goes unpunished
17:08 whiteknight pmichaud: you should write up that story and send it to the Daily WTF
17:08 whiteknight that makes for good reading
17:09 pmichaud what was *really* funny was that I had <24 hrs to analyze the program and prepare my testimony :-)
17:09 pmichaud I went on vacation for a weekend, and when I got back home (on sunday) there was a deputy waiting at my house to serve me a subpoena to testify in court the next day
17:10 pmichaud a friend of mine worked for a law firm and they needed an expert, so he suggested that I do it and they got the subpoena on friday so I could testify on monday.  but they didn't realize I was out of town and so the messages they left on my ans machine were unanswered
17:10 whiteknight why did they pick you?
17:10 whiteknight oh, okay
17:11 pmichaud so when I came in on sunday, I had a subpoena and said  "Huh?  What in the world is this...?"
17:11 pmichaud when I called, they said "we're sorry to have put you in this position, we needed something quickly, we'll pay you extra, etc."
17:11 pmichaud and yes, I did do all of the analysis and simulations in Perl :-)
17:12 PerlJam pm: did you put together a graph of the distribution of the "random" numbers from their software?
17:12 pmichaud yes, I did
17:13 pmichaud that was pretty amazing too.  since I had so little time, I just put together a basic histogram showing the distribution of "random" numbers being produced by their system
17:13 PerlJam I seem to recall that you made a graph of random numbers from perl's rand function.   I couldn't remember about the other.
17:13 pmichaud it was on a 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper
17:13 pmichaud I met with the legal team monday morning (the day I'm supposed to testify) to explain what I had discovered.
17:14 pmichaud by 10am, when the trial started, they had already blown it up into a full-size poster with labels and descriptions so it could be entered into evidence :-)
17:14 RobertLJ1 joined #parrot
17:14 pmichaud (yes, this was a big law firm)
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17:18 pmichaud cotto: any chance we could use a sub-second time for the seed?  or maybe do like Perl does and use time, process id, memory allocation, etc.?  patches welcome?
17:19 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/964938  # result of rand on 2011.04
17:19 cotto pmichaud, I'm all for a better source of entropy, as long as we do it portably.
17:20 * cotto has to go to dayjob
17:21 pmichaud well, anything I do would probably be only slightly better than intval, not really a solution to the entropy ticket
17:21 pmichaud I'll see if I can come up with a patch, other can revert if it's not good enough :)
17:22 plobsing don't most OSes maintain an entropy pool?
17:22 plobsing can't we tap into that in a system-specific way?
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17:41 cotto_work ~~
17:45 darbelo_ left #parrot
17:45 pmichaud effect of memory on rakudo benchmarks:
17:45 pmichaud https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench/blob/m​aster/results/kiwi-x86_64-201105101435.txt   # kiwi, 8GB
17:45 pmichaud https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench/blob/m​aster/results/kiwi-x86_64-201105100844.txt   # kiwi, 2GB
17:46 pmichaud it might be more useful here to compare absolute times instead of the percentages
17:47 benabik pmichaud: Looks like we're narrowing the gap...  But some of it is that the 8GB case got slower. :-/
17:48 cotto_work pmichaud: how did you limit ram?
17:48 pmichaud mem=2gb to kernel
17:49 pmichaud er,  "mem=2g" to kernel
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17:55 lucian interesting http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4268
17:55 cotto_work looks like I need to re-educate myself about our our platform-specific code works
18:06 coke_ (trac fixed) I just used it. what's the problem?
18:07 coke_ (just == today)
18:08 coke_ (jury system) I suspect a similar flaw out here, as I am never called for jury duty.
18:09 coke_ (not in the 13 years I have lived in this county.)
18:14 cotto_work coke_: do you have an admin bit on trac?
18:15 cotto_work I need my password reset and apparently didn't set an email address for password recovery.
18:17 coke_ cotto_work: yes.
18:17 coke_ momentito.
18:18 coke_ urk?
18:18 cotto_work no, "cotto"
18:18 coke_ manage user accounts. There are 4 accounts. bacek, coke, jkeenan, pmichaud
18:18 cotto_work urk indeed
18:18 cotto_work wtf trac
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 coke_ I can add you, but that seems... suboptimal.
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work trac--
18:19 cotto_work I'll sign up.
18:19 coke_ (esp. if it conflicts with your previous account ID.)
18:20 cotto_work when I try to register "cotto", it says I already exist.
18:21 coke_ checking the logs...
18:21 coke_ TimeoutError: Unable to get database connection within 20 seconds
18:21 cotto_work I'm glad you somehow kept your account.
18:21 whiteknight We do have plenty of platform-specific code in the IO system for instance. We could add a similar mechanism for miscellanea and add a Parrot_misc_get_entropy_source() function there
18:22 cotto_work whiteknight: that's my plan
18:22 whiteknight okay, awesome
18:22 coke_ ... nevermind. that error is from 2009
18:24 coke_ if I go to "permissions", I see lots of usres.
18:24 coke_ just not in Users.
18:24 cotto_work wonky
18:25 coke_ I have privs to the box - someone who knows trac could step me through something.
18:25 whiteknight coke_: I've worked a little bit with it. What do you need?
18:25 cotto_work I don't know trac well enough that I could do it blind, but I can ususally figure it out.
18:27 jeffreykegler_ joined #parrot
18:29 whiteknight we sure inspire confidence
18:29 jeffreykegler_ left #parrot
18:29 coke_ whiteknight: I have no idea. trac is working fine for me.
18:30 coke_ cotto needs a password change. but his account doesn't seem to exist in the admin screen
18:31 cotto_work coke_: what happens if you change my permissions?
18:32 hercynium left #parrot
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18:35 theory joined #parrot
18:36 coke_ The user cotto has been granted the permission REPORT_SQL_VIEW.
18:36 coke_ The selected permissions have been revoked.
18:36 cotto_work I miss chromatic's sarcasm.  I'm glad he blogs.
18:37 coke_ I can try to change your password, even if I cannot see your account...
18:37 cotto_work sure
18:37 cotto_work make it something temporary and I'll change it when I can log in
18:39 cotto_work and we're back
18:40 cotto_work now to figure out how to deal with this for every other user
18:44 whiteknight yes, we need to get some burlap sacks, and some bars of soap in old tube socks, and bring chromatic back
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18:58 wagle i appear not to have the privs to edit http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/LoritoRoadmap to include a pointer to http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Lorito for a description of what lorito is
18:58 dukeleto ~~
18:58 cotto_work wagle: the majority of trac's accounts are fubar'd
18:59 dukeleto wagle: trac is messed up right now
18:59 wagle i just logged in..  i assumed it was fixed now
18:59 wagle ok..  no problem
18:59 cotto_work wagle: try now
19:00 cotto_work It's a little surprising you could log in.
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19:01 cotto_work pmichaud: the ticket for an entropy source is http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/64
19:01 wagle cotto_work: it worked..
19:01 wagle thanks..  one less minor pet peeve for me..
19:01 cotto_work wagle: I updated your permissions
19:02 cotto_work one down, 50-some to go
19:02 wagle yeh, i figured
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19:02 coke_ cotto_work: you are now showing up on the user list.
19:03 coke_ with no name or email.
19:04 cotto_work I fixed that
19:05 dalek tracwiki: v26 | wagle++ | LoritoRoadmap
19:05 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Lor​itoRoadmap?version=26&amp;action=diff
19:06 cotto_work wagle: sorry for the inconvenience
19:07 wagle meh, no problem
19:07 mtk joined #parrot
19:07 wagle just trying to help, starting tiny
19:07 cotto_work that's the way to do it
19:08 bubaflub left #parrot
19:09 dukeleto wagle++
19:11 whiteknight wagle: start big! break things. light fires
19:12 KaeseEs /sanick whiteknight advicedog
19:12 wagle heh
19:13 ShaneC joined #parrot
19:13 atrodo is now known as atrodo_
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19:14 atrodo_ is now known as atrodo
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19:15 coke_ I suspect that somehow the accounts are 'stealth', and if you have the password you can login.
19:15 coke_ (but until you login, I am not seeing them.)
19:15 coke_ which is crazy, but fits the facts-so-far.
19:18 lucian left #parrot
19:18 coke_ m0?
19:19 whiteknight my trac username is still not working
19:19 whiteknight not that I'm planning to do anything with it today
19:21 theory left #parrot
19:25 cotto_work coke_: M0 is the VM that Lorito will run on top of.
19:27 bubaflub joined #parrot
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19:28 bubaflub joined #parrot
19:29 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 3.3.0 released | http://parrot.org | Log: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | trac accounts are wonky; talk to cotto, coke or whiteknight if you have trouble
19:31 coke_ cotto_work: don't tell ME, tell aloha.
19:31 coke_ whiteknight: I can reset your password if you like
19:32 cotto_work coke_: already took care of it
19:32 coke_ aloha, M0?
19:32 whiteknight coke_: thanks, cotto already got to me
19:32 aloha coke_: M0 is a poor format for transmitting ops
19:32 whiteknight I would love to know why this happened
19:32 coke_ aloha, no, M0 is the VM that Lorito will run on top of.
19:32 aloha coke_: Okay.
19:32 whiteknight smolder eating up a bunch of memory doesn't seem like it should corrupt trac internal data
19:32 whiteknight or reset user passwords, or disable user accounts, or whatever else wonky crap happened
19:33 wagle could be running out of memory and not checking for that
19:34 wagle malloc error!  stay on target!
19:36 kid51 joined #parrot
19:39 KaeseEs while(malloc(i++)){} /* firefox 2.x source snippet? */
19:39 coke_ ACHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO​OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
19:39 KaeseEs bless you
19:39 coke_ That's about 10 in a row. ow.
19:39 KaeseEs don't die
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19:43 atrodo coke_> allergies?
19:47 cotto_work It's definitely cold season at $dayjob.
19:48 cotto_work Lack of communicable diseases is a nice side-effect of irc.
19:49 cotto_work kid51: ping (when you're done with the #ps report)
19:50 kid51 left #parrot
19:50 cotto_work or not
19:53 whiteknight Lack of communicable diseases is a nice side-effect of not having children
19:53 whiteknight I'm thinking about renaming my kid "Snotbag", for accuracy
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19:56 whiteknight my wife keeps telling me I'm not allowed to refactor the little guy
19:56 theory joined #parrot
19:56 whiteknight but there are so many improvements I could make if I were just allowed to break the interface a little bit
19:57 atrodo whiteknight> Reading only the last line, I thought you were talking about PCC
19:57 whiteknight heh
19:58 whiteknight but there would be much less reason to call the police if that's what I was talking about :)
19:58 tcurtis whiteknight: but there are so many existing systems which expect him to support his current interface, and do you even have a formal deprecation policy. :)
19:58 atrodo whiteknight> much less
19:58 whiteknight tcurtis: the "my wife says no" policy
20:01 atrodo whiteknight> which is a very hard policy to ignore
20:02 whiteknight atrodo: In my next blog post, I propose several big changes to PCC which (I think) will help performance
20:02 whiteknight I think we can cut out fill_params entirely, cut out signature array constants, AND give the user new features all in the same huge refactor
20:03 whiteknight ...all without abusing hallucinogens
20:03 plobsing but will it whiten my teeth?
20:03 whiteknight plobsing: only if they get in the way
20:05 whiteknight I've kicked some of these ideas past plobsing before and he was hardly thrilled about them at the time
20:05 whiteknight but, it's my blog and I'll post whatever nonsense I want there
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20:07 benabik Is #ps now?
20:07 whiteknight 23minutes
20:07 benabik Ah.  Got my timing messed up by having to be on campus on day without class.
20:16 whiteknight NotFound: What is winxedxx?
20:17 soh_cah_toa joined #parrot
20:17 NotFound https://github.com/NotFound/winxedxx
20:18 whiteknight NotFound: does it use Parrot at all?
20:18 NotFound whiteknight: no, it uses a bunch of classes that mimics parrot pmcs
20:18 whiteknight oh, okay
20:20 NotFound Is very limited, but amazingly fast.
20:22 jevin left #parrot
20:22 NotFound To be clear: it doesn't use parrot at runtime, the compiler is winxed on parrot.
20:22 whiteknight All my winxed code uses inline PIR, and Parrot object model features
20:22 whiteknight so I can't use winxedxx
20:24 whiteknight I mean, I could write new code for it :)
20:25 NotFound whiteknight: I'm trying to avoid the need for inline pir, adding new predefs if necesary.
20:25 Coke joined #parrot
20:27 NotFound The long-term goal is to be able to compile a winxed compiler, and replace the hand written stage 0 with it.
20:28 whiteknight ah, okay
20:28 whiteknight NotFound: if you have a system where we can write our own predefs, I would be happy to start writing libraries of them
20:29 whiteknight Rosella is going to add a library of string operations soon, which will do most of that
20:29 NotFound whiteknight: I still don't have a design for that feature.
20:30 whiteknight NotFound: yeah, I'm sure it's tricky
20:30 cotto_work #ps time
20:31 * whiteknight has to go time
20:31 whiteknight left #parrot
20:32 NotFound But the recent changes in scope lookup will make it more feasible. Soon predefs will be searched like normal functions, and then will be easier to extend or override.
20:33 NotFound Next step can be c++ alike 'using namespace'.
20:35 cotto_work plobsing: ping
20:35 plobsing cotto_work: pong
20:38 ShaneC left #parrot
20:42 coke_ atrodo: I have never had allergies before. But I think it might be, yes.
20:43 tadzik I have allergies, for Spring, Summer and Autumn
20:47 ambs left #parrot
20:58 coke_ msg mj41 let me know when I can login to taptinder again, plz.
20:58 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
21:01 mj41 joined #parrot
21:03 coke_ hey, mj41.
21:05 mj41 coke_: ahoj, I know ... I recreate tt.taptinder.org DB from scratch ... will fix your login/passwd tomorrow.
21:20 coke_ looks like smolder is stuck running some kind of log xfer:
21:20 coke_ /usr/sbin/cronolog /var/log/apache2/smolder.par​rot.org/transfer/%Y%m%d.log
21:21 coke_ I've tried to kill it but it respawns.
21:22 coke_ no actual smolder processes are running, though.
21:22 coke_ I can try to restart, but I assume this is part of a larger process.
21:22 coke_ OSUOSL?
21:22 coke_ aloha, OSUOSL?
21:22 aloha coke_: OSUOSL is an excellent resource.  I'd like to make life minimally difficult for them.
21:23 coke_ is now known as Freenode_Coke
21:23 cotto_work aloha: no osuosl is the Oregon State University Open Source Lab, which provides hosting for *.parrot.org
21:23 aloha cotto_work: Okay.
21:23 Freenode_Coke left #parrot
21:31 * dukeleto is of the opinion that smolder is broken by design
21:31 Coke_ joined #parrot
21:32 Coke_ smolder is currently in the process of being migrated.
21:32 Coke_ dukeleto is aware of it.
21:32 Coke_ and has been working with them for some time now, apparently, on an open OSU ticket.
21:32 dukeleto Coke_: which means "i haven't done anything towards that and don't plan to", so I would say "in the process of" is a bit of a lie.
21:32 dukeleto Coke_: no.
21:33 Coke_ dukeleto: you might want to talk to Ram... someone on #osuosl on freenode, then.
21:33 dukeleto Coke_: the problem is known, and just yesterday OSUOSL told us to basically "have fun, read the nascent Supercell documentation and figure out how to migrate smolder yourselves"
21:33 dukeleto Coke_: I am in that channel. I talk to them and hiim all the time.
21:33 dukeleto him, rather
21:33 Coke_ ok. then you saw what he just said. I was just trying to repeat that.
21:34 dukeleto Coke_: i simply hate smolder and won't give precious minutes of my life to mess with it. Broken by design.
21:34 Coke_ in any case: I won't be helping fix smolder since stuff's going on that I wasn't aware of.
21:34 dukeleto Coke_: yes, no one wants to fix smolder, which is why this situation sucks a lot.
21:34 Coke_ dukeleto: No, i DID want to fix smolder. but just stepped in some other big mess going on.
21:35 Coke_ (ok, just now I was going to workaround, not fix, exactly)
21:36 dukeleto Coke_: there is no other big mess other than smolder
21:37 lucian_ is now known as lucian
21:37 dukeleto Coke_: it needs to go on it's own vm
21:37 mikehh dukeleto: as I mentioned before, I tried to set up a local smolder server, but way too many dependencies. will try again later
21:37 dukeleto Coke_: we have a supercell vm with OSUOSL
21:37 dukeleto mikehh: cpanm --installdeps .
21:37 dukeleto mikehh: please don't install deps by yourself :)
21:37 dukeleto mikehh: or perl Build.PL; ./Build installdeps
21:37 dukeleto mikehh: cpanm is "App::cpanminus"
21:39 mikehh dukeleto: yeah, but not only perl dependencies :-}
21:40 mikehh I tend to use cpanp. but also need to get all the necessary dev libraries
21:42 dukeleto mikehh: i highly recommend cpanminus, is all I will say
21:42 dukeleto mikehh: we are talking about perl dependencies (straw man goes down) ;)
21:44 mikehh dukeleto: I don't have any problems relating to perl dependencies, just recently installed various Ubuntu 11.04 versions and have not yet got all the server stuff set up yet
21:52 dukeleto mikehh: gotcha
21:54 bacek ~~
21:56 mikehh hey bacek. how you doin'
21:56 bacek Just woke up. Nothing bad happened yet :)
21:59 mikehh bacek: I did some tests on rakudo, that build quicker with --buildframes was a couple of commits later and now seems to be much the same as without it
21:59 bluescreen left #parrot
22:00 bubaflub left #parrot
22:00 bacek mikehh, did you compare 3.3 vs master?
22:00 mikehh yes at least 20% improvement in make -j
22:00 bubaflub joined #parrot
22:01 bubaflub left #parrot
22:12 bacek mikehh, sounds about all right :)
22:12 dukeleto we lost all our trac credentials? wtf?
22:14 cotto_work dukeleto: kinda.  They're in an inconsistent state that seems to be fairly easy to restore.
22:14 cotto_work dukeleto: can you log in?
22:15 soh_cah_toa i can't
22:16 cotto_work soh_cah_toa: see privmsg
22:18 soh_cah_toa all better now
22:18 soh_cah_toa what happened w/ trac?
22:25 benabik left #parrot
22:32 kid51 joined #parrot
22:32 kid51 cotto_work: ping
22:38 bubaflub joined #parrot
22:38 cotto_work kid51: pong
22:38 kthakore kid51: hello I shall fill in for cotto_work today. How may I be of service?
22:38 kthakore cotto_work: sssssh
22:39 mj41 left #parrot
22:39 cotto_work ...
22:39 * kthakore runs away, swinging
22:39 cotto_work kthakore: not sure how that'll work.  How good's your PHP and Drupal hacking?
22:40 cotto_work also, how good are you with the highly site-specific and moderately hacky codebase I have at $dayjob?
22:40 cotto_work ;)
22:41 kthakore cotto_work: it is ok
22:41 kthakore cotto_work: I have used drupal before need help?
22:42 kthakore you can pay me in ramen noodles or that paper thing that gets more ramen noodles
22:44 plobsing a paper cup?
22:45 cotto_work a paper gun?
22:45 bubaflub ramen noodle order form?
22:45 kthakore oooh no the paper with ppl on it
22:45 kthakore and big numbers on it
22:45 kthakore liek 5
22:45 kthakore and 10
22:45 aloha 10
22:45 kthakore and 20
22:45 aloha 20
22:45 kthakore and 30
22:45 aloha 30
22:45 kthakore aloha: FUUUUU
22:46 cotto_work 20 and 30
22:46 aloha 50
22:46 cotto_work 20 and 30 minus a cow
22:46 kthakore 30 and 100**20
22:46 aloha 1e+40
22:46 kthakore hehehehehe
22:46 kthakore c = 20;
22:46 kthakore c and 20
22:46 kthakore :(
22:47 * plobsing has a dream to be on the $30 bill
22:48 cotto_work plobsing, if legality isn't an issue, I know a guy
22:49 plobsing it is only illegal if you get caught. but with your face on the bill, it might be challenging not to be caught
22:50 kthakore plobsing: done http://i.imgur.com/5SIVl.jpg
22:51 soh_cah_toa http://www.festisite.com/money/
22:51 kthakore soh_cah_toa: my version is BETTAH!
22:51 kthakore plobsing: what do you think?
22:52 soh_cah_toa yeah, it definitely is
22:52 plobsing kthakore: I'm happier than I've ever been.
22:53 plobsing soh_cah_toa: It'll take me some time to get a rockin' beard like that.
22:53 soh_cah_toa you can upload your own photo
22:53 kthakore plobsing: get to it
22:54 lucian left #parrot
22:54 kthakore plobsing: will you be at YAPC::NA ?
22:54 Tene Man, plobsing has very little personal information online. :P
22:54 kthakore I will draw you a beard for your face
22:54 kthakore on your face
22:54 Tene No facebook profile full of photos that I can find.
22:54 kthakore with marker
22:55 tadzik with Perl SDL :)
22:55 kthakore YA!
22:55 tadzik App::yourownbanknote
22:55 kthakore and add physics with Box2D!
22:55 plobsing realistic beard physics ftw
22:56 tadzik woosh-woosh
22:56 kthakore tadzik: http://yapgh.blogspot.com :) box2D shamelessness
22:56 tadzik yeah, I read that :)
22:57 mtk left #parrot
22:58 kthakore yay!
22:58 mtk joined #parrot
22:58 kthakore well it was a video ... so how did you read a video?
22:58 tadzik I didn't I watched it :)
22:59 tadzik oh, I didn't see that one coming
22:59 tadzik I read the label then :)
22:59 kthakore T T
22:59 * kthakore runs away dripping eye sweat
23:10 kthakore hmm looks like I killed the chan again
23:10 kthakore VICTORY!!!!!
23:11 whiteknight joined #parrot
23:12 dalek parrot: b8822cf | NotFound++ | src/packfile/api.c:
23:12 dalek parrot: fix problems in failed PBC loading
23:12 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/b8822cfe3d
23:24 kid51 left #parrot
23:27 NotFound No one never tried to load a packfile that doesn't existed?
23:28 whiteknight I have done it before, I don't remember the results
23:28 jnthn__ Surely.
23:28 jnthn__ Lots of times. It gives some error saying it doesn't exist, IIRC. :)
23:28 NotFound It segfaulted to me.
23:29 jnthn__ oh.
23:29 jnthn__ No, I remembered useful errors :)
23:29 NotFound Look that last commit to see why.
23:29 jnthn__ Cannot stat foo.pbc
23:29 jnthn__ yeah, I'm looking at it and wondering how it ever worked :)
23:30 jnthn__ yeah, even before that patch:
23:30 jnthn__ "load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'OhLol.setting.pbc'
23:30 jnthn__ for example.
23:31 jnthn__ But that looks like a different code path than the one you just fixed.
23:33 whiteknight jnthn__: how goes the rakudo -> 6model work
23:33 whiteknight ?
23:33 jnthn__ whiteknight: Well. I blug about it yesterday.
23:33 jnthn__ whiteknight: Nothing actually runs yet but re-working the primitives is going very smoothly.
23:34 NotFound BTW those Parrot_eprintf are an intrusive way of reporting the problem.
23:34 whiteknight what's your blog url? I don't seem to have it bookmarked
23:34 whiteknight NotFound: yeah, we should get rid of Parrot_eprintf
23:34 jnthn__ whiteknight: http://6guts.wordpress.com/
23:34 whiteknight NotFound: exceptions are beter
23:34 whiteknight better
23:34 whiteknight jnthn__++
23:35 atrodo is now known as atrodo_
23:35 cotto_work NotFound: +1 to more exceptions
23:35 atrodo_ is now known as atrodo
23:36 NotFound Someone will look for the opengl failure after nci changes? I can't run examples/fly anymore.
23:36 plobsing whiteknight: exceptions suck in startup where they are silent failures. this has happened to me a number of times.
23:37 whiteknight jnthn__: I'm putting together a large (and growing) list of questions about 6model. Eventually I'm going to have to corner you and start blasting away
23:37 whiteknight plobsing: is that still the case after the embedding API changes? No exceptions should be unhandled and unreported
23:37 plobsing NotFound: I was not aware opengl was broken. I'll look at it shortly.
23:37 whiteknight plobsing: at least, none that I am aware of
23:37 jnthn__ whiteknight: OK :)
23:38 whiteknight jnthn__: I'm going to give you some more time with Rakudo first. I might get some questions answered by watching your commit logs
23:38 plobsing whiteknight: exceptions thrown from Parrot_nci_load_extra_thunks lead to silent failures
23:38 NotFound plobsing: will be nice, opengl provides our more visual appealing examples.
23:40 NotFound plobsing: They can't be caught and shown?
23:40 plobsing NotFound: I'm not sure if they can't. I'm just sure that they aren't.
23:42 NotFound plobsing: That function does some bytecode loading?
23:42 nopaste "plobsing" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "[PATCH] introduce silent startup failure" (13 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/44500
23:43 cotto_work silent startup failures?  committed and applied.
23:43 cotto_work er, pushed
23:44 whiteknight plobsing: that's troubling
23:44 NotFound Silen normal exit, or silent abort?
23:44 cotto_work sounds like a bug
23:45 plobsing $? == 1
23:45 whiteknight we should never get to that point without passing through the embedding API, which should set a jump-out point and print out error messages
23:45 dalek parrot: 3f44869 | plobsing++ | / (9 files):
23:45 dalek parrot: eliminate unused buildframes code (this is now handled by libffi)
23:45 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/3f4486932f
23:45 whiteknight unless it is being caught and discarded somewhere
23:45 NotFound I guess that is executed before the IO channels initialization.
23:46 whiteknight plobsing: oh, does this happen during interp initialization?
23:46 plobsing whiteknight: yes
23:46 whiteknight ah, okay
23:47 whiteknight the embedding API actually skips that particular case
23:47 whiteknight maybe that's a place where exceptions should be avoided
23:48 plobsing whiteknight: what if we run out of memory during interp allocation?
23:48 plobsing silent fail?
23:48 whiteknight let me look
23:50 whiteknight plobsing: do NCI thunks get initialized in allocate_interpreter or initialize_interpreter?
23:50 whiteknight I assume the later?
23:50 plobsing I'm not entirely sure.
23:50 whiteknight initialize_interpreter doesn't have any mechanism for communicating an error condition
23:51 whiteknight and depending on where that happens, the exceptions system might not be set up, the IO system might not be set up, etc
23:51 plobsing I understand that, during regular end user operation, that init code should be very unlikely to produce exceptions; but for parrot hackers, it becomes more likely, and it would be desirable to be able to easily identify this situation
23:52 plobsing and I doubt that, even during regular operation, exceptions are impossible
23:52 whiteknight Let me trace through that test case now, see what I can come up with
23:55 whiteknight heh, I was trying to figure out why the build didn't complete for a moment
23:55 darbelo left #parrot
23:56 NotFound The function is called before initializing the initial context, so there is no framework for handling exceptions.
23:57 whiteknight I think I can fix that case
23:57 whiteknight give me a minute
23:59 cotto_work plobsing: is libffi our only supported method of building dynamic call frames?
23:59 NotFound Someone deleted the fprintf's I added some time ago for the worse case secanarios.

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