Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-05-23

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Time Nick Message
00:03 ttbot Parrot 1b290a46 cygwin-thread-multi-64int make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/11376
00:05 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: cb718b1 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
00:05 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_set_string_keyed_str
00:05 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/cb718b1308
00:07 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: wazzup
00:07 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: gsoc work
00:08 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: i've got the runcore working now i'm just searching through this massive api for things that may be helpful
00:09 bubaflub soh_cah_toa++
00:09 soh_cah_toa fortunately, i just discovered the amazing power for 'git grep'
00:15 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: 3047227 | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
00:15 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: [t] Parrot_PMC_set_string_keyed_int
00:15 dalek parrot/leto/embed_grant: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/30472276c7
00:17 kid51 soh_cah_toa: Consider adding something to your weekly blog about 'git grep', e.g., how it differs from 'grep' or 'ack'.
00:17 soh_cah_toa kid51: sure
00:25 soh_cah_toa hey, does anybody know if you have to register/pay to get into yapc::na?
00:26 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: yes
00:26 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: but, as far as confs go, it is very cheap. I think $100 or something like that
00:27 dalek parrot: 7633217 | jkeenan++ | config/gen/makefiles/root.in:
00:27 dalek parrot: Revert "Apply patch submitted in http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/540.
00:27 dalek parrot: Eliminate $(ALL_PARROT_LIBS) from src/glut_callbacks.o."
00:27 dalek parrot:
00:27 dalek parrot: This reverts commit 1b290a4658a8d2037855cbeed57b09b847a163f7.
00:27 dalek parrot: We will need to diagnose a build error on Cygwin reported here:
00:27 dalek parrot: http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/11376.
00:27 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/763321750b
00:27 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: wow, i'm glad i asked. that could've been bad...
00:33 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: submitting a talk gets you in free :)
00:35 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: lucky you :)
00:37 dalek TT #540 reopened by jkeenan++: installed versions of dynext/*.so still link to -lparrot in build ...
00:37 dalek TT #540: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/540
00:39 kid51 soh_cah_toa: Travel and room costs are always the significant parts of attending YAPC.  But even those are less than other conferences.
00:39 kid51 soh_cah_toa: Where are you located, terrestrially speaking?
00:40 soh_cah_toa kid51: new jersey. yapc::na will be about a 13 hour drive for me
00:41 kid51 soh_cah_toa: Consider also FOSSCON in Philadelphia Sat July 23.
00:41 kid51 I'm hoping pmichaud and whiteknight will attend.
00:41 soh_cah_toa kid51: i'll be there too
01:05 kid51 dukeleto: Is it now the case that we have no information as to what git commit we are at until parrot has been built?
01:05 kid51 i.e., we no longer have that information as a result of Configure.pl?
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01:42 dalek parrot: 462c4ce | petdance++ | include/parrot/compiler.h:
01:42 dalek parrot: remove the /*@null@*/ from SHIM args
01:42 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/462c4ce892
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04:22 cotto ~
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04:36 dukeleto msg kid51 cotto changed some stuff regarding sha1 caching, but you can always just do "git rev-parse HEAD" to get the current sha1
04:36 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
04:49 bubaflub left #parrot
05:09 * cotto sleeps
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05:24 dalek parrot: fe2ae81 | petdance++ | src/gc/alloc_resources.c:
05:24 dalek parrot: make the loop var make what it is comparing to
05:24 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/fe2ae815bf
06:18 dalek parrot: 121807c | dukeleto++ | t/src/extend_vtable.t:
06:18 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'leto/embed_grant'
06:18 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/121807c25c
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10:17 bacek ~~
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10:18 bacek msg benabik you have to implement nqp-setting bootstrapping. E.g. commit generated nqp-setting.pir into repo. Otherwise we'll have circular dependencies nqp->pct->nqp.
10:18 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
10:18 bacek seen benabik
10:18 aloha benabik was last seen in #perl6 3 hours 8 mins ago saying "sorear: Ah.  Less useful then, although that is the reason I use git-archive.  :-D".
10:20 bacek msg benabik Simplest solution is to generate nqp-setting.pir in C<master> branch, copy it across to <nqp_pct> branch and fix makefiles. I can update upstream nqp-rx after.
10:20 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
10:33 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: bee51f5 | bacek++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
10:33 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: Disable manual freeing of pmc/strings. It brakes invariant about single copy of header in list. And we can't remove it from objects/strings list cheaply
10:33 dalek parrot/gc_tuning: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/bee51f51fa
10:37 daniel-s left #parrot
10:42 bacek seen pmichaud
10:42 aloha pmichaud was last seen in #parrot 3 days 9 hours ago saying "I'm able to access trac now".
10:43 bacek sigh.
10:43 bacek msg pmichaud if you'll have time can you rebenchmark gc_tuneup branch? And I have idea how to improve performance of PCT in gms
10:43 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
10:45 bacek msg pmichaud Basically adding Capture.ro_list and .ro_hash will reduce number of WBs by big huge number.
10:45 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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13:01 bubaflub ~~
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14:12 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
14:17 sorear hello whiteknight
14:18 whiteknight hello sorear
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14:26 Coke_ .
14:33 Andy joined #parrot
14:37 * Andy is downloading the latest GCC 4.7 snapshot, with the -Wmaybe-uninitialized flag
14:39 ambs_ joined #parrot
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14:39 ambs_ is now known as ambs
14:47 Coke_ or maybe-not.
14:55 Andy gcc does take a little while to build.
14:55 Andy chugga chugga
14:55 NotFound Have you seen my last candy? http://winxed.org/misc/testwinxedgtk1.png
14:55 cotto ~
14:56 NotFound Gtk via NCI.
14:56 cotto NotFound++
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15:05 xenoterracide particle1: prod
15:07 whiteknight NotFound++
15:07 whiteknight gtk bindings would be quite awesome indeed
15:07 whiteknight if only we had good GObject bindings to go with it...
15:09 lucian yeah, gobject-introspection seems to be the way to go
15:09 NotFound I don't care about that for a now, I'm just working in easisly doing GUIs.
15:10 lucian i'd expect using g-i to be easier than a hand-written binding
15:11 NotFound Maybe, but that one works now.
15:13 lucian sure, you're getting results
15:13 lucian and i STILL have to revise for my stupid exams
15:16 NotFound I want the posibility of writing GUIs right now, don't care if the engine gets obsolted soon.
15:17 whiteknight I would like to be able to add some GUI Views to some Rosella libraries
15:17 whiteknight a nice GUI for the REPL would be fun
15:17 NotFound Is not too much effort to bind the most used widgets.
15:18 NotFound whiteknight: What is exactly the REPL? You haven't write about it, or I failed to see it.
15:18 whiteknight oh, it's just a prototype right now. I can't write any posts because I have no internet access at home
15:19 whiteknight https://github.com/Whiteknight/Rosella/blob/ma​ster/src/unstable/utilities/winxed_repl.winxed
15:19 whiteknight that's the frontend to it
15:19 whiteknight https://github.com/Whiteknight/Rosell​a/blob/master/src/winxed/Repl.winxed
15:19 whiteknight and that's the main library file
15:24 NotFound What is it? Some sort of pluggable perser?
15:24 whiteknight oh, it's like a command-line interface. You write one line and eval it
15:24 whiteknight the input comes from the commandline instead of a file
15:24 NotFound Oh, nice.
15:25 whiteknight What I need to do is override some parts of the winxed compiler to save variables between lines, and search for variables in a different way, but that will happen later
15:26 whiteknight (That's why I want Winxed compiler to use a namespace for it's code, so I can inject my own things into that namespace)
15:26 lucian that sounds like incremental compilation
15:26 NotFound Sounds good. I'm also thinking about allowing plugins or optional parts in the winxed compiler, for the benefit of winxedxx.
15:26 cotto_work ~~
15:27 NotFound whiteknight: That way probably will not work well because of static binding.
15:30 whiteknight NotFound: It's not a big deal. I have a state object that the user can store values into for now, and I added an ability to add a common prefix. I'm thinking about changing the code generator to force each new line to use the previous one as an :outer
15:30 whiteknight that could make lookups costly, but I don't expect that to be a big problem
15:31 NotFound The variables can also be hard, given the not-so-lexical oriented winxed way.
15:31 whiteknight is there a way I can force a variable to be stored lexically, or hint to the compiler that they should be saved?
15:31 whiteknight blah, nevermind. I'm getting too complicated right now
15:32 NotFound whiteknight: I can probably add something, but that will only work for var, not for int, float or string.
15:32 whiteknight yeah, no big deal. Don't worry about it
15:32 whiteknight you have too many other fun projects to work on first :)
15:33 NotFound Ars longa, vita brevis.
15:34 NotFound The main problem I see in NCI right now is that callbacks don't return a result.
15:35 NotFound They use a void function, ignoring the result type in the siganture.
15:36 NotFound That is a big problem for some Gtk signals.
15:37 whiteknight We know that callbacks don't do enough stuff. We've known that for years
15:37 whiteknight we might be able to hack in return values for it. Can you open a ticket?
15:38 NotFound I'll wait until I publish something of that module, to have something to work on.
16:23 cotto_work dukeleto: ping
16:25 lucian allison: ping
16:25 dukeleto cotto_work: pong
16:27 cotto_work dukeleto: privmsg
16:33 whiteknight dukeleto ping and also privmsg
16:34 * dukeleto is being attacked from all sides!
16:34 cotto_work oh noes
16:35 cotto_work In generated code, how common are non-constant gotos?
16:36 dukeleto cotto_work: good question. Which code? PIR, PASM, NQP ?
16:36 cotto_work as a general principle
16:36 whiteknight I would say highly uncommon
16:36 cotto_work it applies to PIR, but I'm also wondering about actual machine code too
16:37 cotto_work I'm thinking that M0 might benefit if goto statements can only target fixed locations.
16:38 cotto_work dukeleto: how do you feel about git config --global branch.autosetuprebase always
16:39 cotto_work Is that something we should recommend?
16:39 NotFound Winxed does not use non-costant gotos, unless somone is using some trick I'm not aware of.
16:41 dukeleto cotto_work: i think i know what that does. tell me why you want it
16:42 cotto_work dukeleto: avoiding merge commits
16:42 cotto_work lazily
16:43 dukeleto cotto_work: the problem with that command is that it makes it default for all git repos on the system, not just parrot.git
16:44 dukeleto cotto_work: that is the --global part
16:44 cotto_work dukeleto: ok.  We shouldn't recommend global settings changes without noting them as such.
16:45 dukeleto cotto_work: but I think telling people about the autosetuprebase in our docs would be a good middle ground
16:47 cotto_work dukeleto: ok
16:49 cotto_work whiteknight: thanks.  I'll consider it safe to only have constant gotos in M0.  If it turns out to be a bad idea, nothing's set in stone yet.
16:49 whiteknight cotto: For everything else, we have Continuations
16:52 cotto_work When I get home, I should have a copy of Appel's Compiling with Continuations waiting for me.  I expect a very nerdy evening.
16:54 whiteknight nerd on!
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17:00 benabik cotto_work: Awesome.  I need to get my hands on that.
17:01 whiteknight yes, that's definitely on my Amazon wish list
17:01 cotto_work benabik: It might be popular.  I ordered it for delivery on Friday but it didn't get shipped until Saturday.
17:02 cotto_work lta, but I got free shipping for the inconvenience.
17:05 whiteknight free shipping sounds pretty awesome
17:05 cotto_work something about this book appeals to me: http://www.amazon.com/Let-Over-Lambda-Do​ug-Hoyte/dp/1435712757/ref=pd_rhf_shvl_1
17:06 benabik In my functional class last quarter, I finally realized why I don't like Lisp.  Everything looks too alike.  Can't distinguish math from functions from data.
17:07 cotto_work benabik: +1.  If every want to get serious about a lisp-family language, that's the first big obstacle I'll have to get over.
17:07 cotto_work The second will be an urge to clip nails.
17:08 benabik cotto_work: Strangely enough, Lisp's S-Expressions weren't intended to be the main way to program it.  There was a semi-Haskell like format called M-Expressions.
17:24 whiteknight Do we have any motivated students interesting writing a quicksort or heapsort implementation in winxed?
17:24 dukeleto whiteknight: i think emailing parrot-users/parrot-dev would be a good place for that question
17:25 whiteknight I was planning to do something like that over the weekend, but ran out of time
17:26 ligne joined #parrot
17:26 whiteknight cotto_work: does M0 allow you to specify register set by type? I've run into a few problems recently where a problem could be solved much better if we could specify PISN register types at runtime instead of at compile time
17:27 whiteknight sorting is a perfect example. If we could write one sort routine and have it work for all primitive value types without autoboxing all the intermediate results, that would be killer
17:28 whiteknight if I want to sort a FixedIntegerArray, I can pass it to the sort routine with an "I" register set selector, and have it do native integer sorts
17:28 dukeleto whiteknight: what do you mean by "specify register types"
17:28 dukeleto whiteknight: give an example workflow of what you would like to be able to do
17:29 whiteknight dukeleto: So instead of having "$I0 = $I1 + $I2", I could have "$X0 = $X1 + $X2" and be able to specify X at runtime
17:29 whiteknight so if I wanted, that becomes a PMC operation, or a Num operation, or a String operation
17:30 dukeleto whiteknight: sounds macro-ish
17:30 dukeleto whiteknight: and M0 doesn't have macros
17:30 dukeleto whiteknight: but i see why you would want such a thing
17:30 whiteknight yeah, macro is not a bad way to think about it
17:30 whiteknight C++ calls them templates, C# calls them Generics
17:31 dukeleto we don't really intend for anybody to every manually write M0, except during bootstrapping stages
17:31 whiteknight right, but if M0 supports those kinds of operations (PIR currently does not), we can build upon them for higher-order languages
17:31 whiteknight it's a small request, I was just wondering if it had been given any thought
17:35 cotto_work whiteknight: that sounds like a higher level of magic than 0.  It's worth thinking about how M0 could make that kind of metaprogramming possible though.
17:36 whiteknight like I said, it's a small request. Would make several things much much easier if we could specify the target register set to use
17:36 whiteknight or, dare I say, even provide a custom or subclassed register set
17:39 NotFound whiteknight: small requests like that can compromise a full architecture.
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17:40 whiteknight NotFound: true :)
17:42 whiteknight I actually don't think that would be too hard to implement. If the first 3 bits of every register were the type tag, we could look up which register to use for each operation
17:42 whiteknight so if type tag 000 was "unknown", we would look up the default tag from the current context and use that
17:43 whiteknight then we are able to write code once, and parameterize it at runtime
17:44 dukeleto whiteknight: i think what you want could be implemented at the M1 level
17:45 whiteknight is M0 so flexible as to allow those kinds of shenanigans transparently?
17:45 whiteknight or would M1 have to generate multiple versions of static M0 code?
17:45 dukeleto whiteknight: the latter
17:45 dukeleto whiteknight: generated code doesn't have to be pretty
17:45 whiteknight Well, I can live with that
17:45 cotto_work There aren't any free bits in opcodes as-is
17:45 NotFound whiteknight: I think we'll be better served with higher level ways for generating and parametrizing code. If we want a low level machine, it should be really low level.
17:45 cotto_work (M0 opcodes)
17:46 cotto_work actually, there are a few
17:46 cotto_work probably not enough for what you want though
17:46 whiteknight I'm mostly thinking of a way to deduplicate identical code where the only difference is to operate exactly the same on multiple low-level register sets without autoboxing
17:46 NotFound whiteknight: And then reduplicate it in the jit?
17:47 whiteknight .NET does it transparently with type generics
17:47 whiteknight a specializing JIT is already going to duplicate a lot of code
17:47 NotFound whiteknight: define "it"
17:47 whiteknight NotFound: .NET's JIT works just fine with their generics implementation
17:48 NotFound whiteknight: fine, but I doubt cli code has a high similiude with the M0 ideas.
17:49 whiteknight that's very possible
17:49 whiteknight notably, type genericism is really not needed above the register set level, because PVM is all dynamic
17:49 NotFound Id on't doubt that you can jit anything, I doubt the benefit of decuplicating code to later reduplicate it.
17:49 whiteknight Rakudo provides it with 6model though, so we may still want something
17:51 dalek parrot: f9b5a34 | (Matt Boyle)++ | docs/book/pir/ch0 (2 files):
17:51 dalek parrot: [docs] Fix runaway PIR_FRAGMENT regions.
17:51 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f9b5a3438a
17:51 dalek parrot: c5d1909 | dukeleto++ | docs/book/pir/ch0 (2 files):
17:51 dalek parrot: Merge pull request #131 from ligne/book_runaway_pod
17:51 dalek parrot:
17:51 dalek parrot: [docs] Fix runaway PIR_FRAGMENT regions.
17:51 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/c5d190952d
17:51 NotFound whiteknight: you are mixing high level objects with very low level registers.
17:51 * dukeleto loves the merge button
17:52 benabik msg bacek Thanks for the direction.  Not familiar enough with the build yet to recognize that circularity.   Bootstrapped version now on github in benabik/parrot/nqp_pct
17:52 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
17:52 whiteknight NotFound: yes. there are two types of metaprogramming. I would like to see both
17:52 whiteknight We can live with just the high-level types, but a low-level version would be nice too, I think
17:52 ligne is trac still undergoing breakage?  i'm not authorised to create new tickets, even after trying the reset-password trick.
17:53 ligne woah, that was quick.  thanks dukeleto :-)
17:53 whiteknight ligne: We disabled ticket creation for most users because of heavy spam problems
17:53 dmalcolm joined #parrot
17:53 whiteknight We should probably un-disable that
17:53 dukeleto ligne: we may need to give you that bit. trac is not smart about protecting itself against spammers
17:53 dukeleto ligne: keep them coming!
17:53 NotFound whiteknight: A low-level, maybe, but not so low as M0 IMHO.
17:53 dukeleto trac-- needs to learn how to captcha or something
17:54 ligne yeah, it's a shame.  trac is really quite nice, but a bit simple
17:55 whiteknight I really don't like trac at all. It tries to do a lot of stuff but ends up not doing any thing particularly well
17:56 cotto_work For good or ill, it's not so bad that it's worth migrating away from.
17:57 dukeleto we could just install some plugins to our trac instance and make it not suck as much
17:57 dukeleto we really need a captcha plugin
17:57 dukeleto anybody want to research that?
17:57 whiteknight cotto_work: it's not so good that I use it as much as I probably should
17:58 benabik My experience with phpBB is that captchas don't help too much.  :-(
17:58 whiteknight no, captchas are not a perfect solution.
17:58 dukeleto benabik: having a captcha is a barrier
17:58 dukeleto and there are many kinds of captchas. Classic cat + mouse game.
17:59 dukeleto but, alas, something is better than nothing.
17:59 whiteknight depends a lot of the strength of the captcha, but there are other things we could implement as well to reduce the use of bots
17:59 whiteknight at least, the use of generalized bots.
17:59 benabik dukeleto: Text-based questions seem to keep the spammers away better than captchas.
17:59 dukeleto benabik: people still use phpBB ?
17:59 NotFound A sufficent annoying captcha is worse than moderating.
17:59 whiteknight benabik: IBM Watson is in ur site, decipherin' yer questions
18:00 ligne full ack about the lack of a good spam-trap.  i had to delete about a dozen spam tickets from another trac the other day.  not happy.
18:00 dukeleto benabik: yep. the simplest and best is to have a hidden form, which normal users can't see. Spammers will usually insert junk into all form params, and then you disallow if the hidden form is filled
18:00 benabik dukeleto: phpBB still actively developed and seems to be more featureful than the alternatives.
18:00 whiteknight dukeleto: Combine that with hidden fields which use JS to duplicate necessary information
18:00 whiteknight so some hidden fields must have values, and some must not
18:01 ligne is now known as ligne-pub
18:03 NotFound If you enter the javascript-only realm there are more poweful ways: build the form with javascript with data or html code obtained with ajax.
18:04 NotFound A spam robot will need some work to duplicate that.
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18:08 ligne-pub anyway, the reason i wanted to create a ticket was that i've found a couple of bind()-related race conditions in the IPv6 socket tests.
18:09 ligne-pub i've got a patch here, but (a) i've never written any PIR before, so it's probably a bit smelly, and (b) it involves a couple of choices i'm not terribly sure about:  https://github.com/ligne/parrot/commit/9​4251bffce8026a60af9801b38b67b3b480e48e8
18:11 whiteknight ligne-pub: oh, that does sound serious
18:12 NotFound Why dow we need to bind some fixed port?
18:12 whiteknight NotFound: what is the alternative: Random ports?
18:13 NotFound whiteknight: I think so.
18:13 dukeleto ligne-pub: thanks for looking into this!
18:13 cotto_work At this point I'm willing to say that we need human-friendly trac registration.  Too many people have been tricked by the existing one.
18:13 cotto_work ligne++
18:13 dukeleto ligne-pub: i wrote those tests :)
18:14 dukeleto NotFound: the tests attempt to bind to different ports if 1234 is not available
18:15 dukeleto ligne-pub: that commit looks pretty decent for your first PIR. Nice job!
18:16 dukeleto ligne-pub: if you send a pull request, I will merge it in
18:16 dukeleto ligne-pub: those tests failing when running parrallel tests really sucks
18:16 ligne-pub dukeleto> thanks :-)
18:19 ligne-pub dukeleto> done.
18:19 dukeleto ligne-pub: also, send a pull request adding yourself to CREDITS
18:20 dalek parrot: c435b74 | dukeleto++ | t/pmc/socket_ipv6.t:
18:20 dalek parrot: Merge pull request #132 from ligne/94251bffce8026a60af9801b38b67b3b480e48e8
18:20 dalek parrot:
18:20 dalek parrot: Fix race condition in IPv6 socket tests and make them less likely to fail when running tests in parallel
18:20 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/c435b7439a
18:21 dukeleto ligne++ for all the pull requests
18:22 * benabik just got his package from Google!
18:23 dukeleto benabik: take a pic. i would like to see what they send
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18:23 cotto_work benabik: make sure the credit card number is clearly visible
18:23 benabik dukeleto: Mostly it's my prepaid card and a letter explaining it.
18:23 benabik cotto_work: :-P
18:23 dukeleto benabik: and SSN and mothers maiden name
18:23 dukeleto benabik: ah, ok. I thought it was a shwag bag
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18:23 benabik dukeleto: There's a little bit of swag, and I'll take a pic of that.
18:25 ambs left #parrot
18:26 benabik Actually the card itself looks pretty neat.  Will just have to blur things.
18:26 dukeleto we are now down to 6 gsoc students. cgaertner never re-appeared.
18:26 cotto_work dukeleto: he's officially out?
18:26 whiteknight officially, yes
18:26 benabik :-(
18:26 cotto_work That's disappointing.
18:27 benabik What was his project?
18:27 cotto_work GObject interop with Parrot
18:27 bubaflub bummer
18:27 atrodo that's a big shame
18:28 tadzik how officialy is he out, I mean the Mentors Community decided that because he didn't show up he's excluded?
18:29 tadzik s/Community/Comitee/, but whatever
18:29 whiteknight tadzik: his mentor (me) and the org admins(me and dukeleto) talked to Carol Smith about it
18:30 whiteknight We don't know when he will come back, or if he ever will. He's been gone for over a month now
18:31 whiteknight seen cgaertner
18:31 aloha cgaertner was last seen in #parrot 51 days 4 hours ago saying "btw, who would be willing to mentor the project? the proposal template ask for that information, I I don't remeber anyone actually mentioning that...".
18:31 whiteknight 51 days and 4 hours ago
18:31 whiteknight so almost two months
18:31 tadzik understandable
18:31 bubaflub i hope he's alright
18:31 tadzik yeah, I hope so
18:31 whiteknight I hope so too. But there's probably no way we will know
18:32 tadzik I still have a dark vision of him appearing in a week from now saying "here, that's the code I've written in week 1st"
18:32 dalek parrot: 1d9daa5 | petdance++ | config/auto/warnings.pm:
18:32 dalek parrot: check for GCC 4.7 new -Wmaybe-uninitialized
18:32 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/1d9daa5835
18:32 whiteknight tadzik: yes, I'm very afraid of that too
18:32 dalek parrot: 372ebbe | petdance++ | src/pmc/structview.pmc:
18:32 dalek parrot: const a local pointer
18:32 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/372ebbe61e
18:32 cotto_work petdance++ #I just read about that option.  Now I know where you get those.
18:33 Andy From the LJ guy?
18:33 cotto_work I think so.
18:33 Andy The one thing it found was something that splint already found,
18:33 Andy but at least now GCC users can see it.
18:34 whiteknight We'll add that to the list of compile warnings that we are currently ignoring even though we know we shouldn't be
18:34 Andy whiteknight: Probably you won't on this one.
18:34 Andy The one thing it's found looks like it's indeed a bug.
18:34 cotto_work nice
18:35 Andy line 1029 in src/pmc/structview.pmc
18:35 whiteknight Andy++
18:35 Andy It's (apparently) possible to get through the first switch without setting result.
18:36 Andy If the default on the first switch is a That Can't Happen, then let's throw a failed assertion there, and the warning goes away.
18:38 * bubaflub just got my GSoC package
18:39 ShaneC joined #parrot
18:40 tadzik I want mine too :(
18:43 benabik http://www.cs.rit.edu/~bcg2784/GSoC-stuff.jpg
18:43 benabik dukeleto: ^^
18:44 whiteknight No fair! I didn't get a notebook, a pen, or a sticker
18:44 cotto_work I didn't even get money.
18:44 Andy Screw that, I'll take the credit card.
18:45 atrodo I definitely graduated college too early.  Should have been on the 8 year plan
18:45 benabik atrodo: I started college in '99...
18:45 whiteknight I still have my t-shirt though. About 30% of my current wardrobe is google T-shits
18:45 whiteknight t-shirts*
18:45 whiteknight I'm wearing my Google Code-In 2010 shirt now
18:45 atrodo benabik> I started the year after you then
18:46 benabik Ooh, the notebook is grid paper.
18:46 whiteknight I hope mentors get one of those swank notebooks
18:46 tadzik the notebook looks supercool
18:46 whiteknight hell, I'll buy one if I have to
18:46 tadzik it looks too nice to use it
18:46 tadzik I'll ask them for a second one after the midterms :>
18:46 tadzik (assuming I get this far)
18:47 whiteknight tadzik: we have faith
18:47 tadzik thanks :)
18:51 mj41 joined #parrot
18:54 benabik Does NQP implicitly return the last value in a method?
18:55 ShaneC left #parrot
18:55 cotto_work benabik: yes
18:55 cotto_work I like that idiom but it takes some getting used to.
18:56 sorear Is NQP's return statement still several orders of magitude slower than falling off the end?
18:58 benabik sorear: That sounds poor.
19:02 whiteknight I never saw any benchmarks comparing the use of the return keyword
19:02 whiteknight I figured it used the same mechanism as a fall off the end
19:14 NotFound I've hear nqp uses control exceptions.
19:15 davidfetter is there still a PIR? if so, is it deprecated?
19:20 whiteknight yes and no :(
19:21 dalek parrot: bbd5de8 | util++ | / (12 files):
19:21 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'Util/TT1217'
19:21 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/bbd5de8bc7
19:21 davidfetter whiteknight, what would you recommend i use instead?
19:23 whiteknight davidfetter: for what purpose?
19:23 davidfetter whiteknight, well, dukeleto's done yeoman work on embedding parrot in postgres
19:24 davidfetter the first embedded language (PL, in postgres parlance) was PL/PIR
19:24 Coke left #parrot
19:25 Coke joined #parrot
19:25 davidfetter that's not a direction set in stone, but the idea was that HLLs would somehow compile down to PIR
19:30 Coke left #parrot
19:30 Coke__ joined #parrot
19:30 whiteknight The reality is that compiling down to PIR is still the only way to get code running on Parrot
19:30 whiteknight so PL/PIR is probably an unavoidable link in the chain for now
19:35 davidfetter whiteknight, is there a "PIR Considered Harmful" somewhere so i can familiarize myself with your dislike of it?
19:35 whiteknight davidfetter: there is somewhere. It's a topic that's probably in need of a reawakening
19:35 moritz davidfetter: the gist is that it's far too complex for an assembly language, and still too low level for a high-level anguage
19:35 moritz *language
19:36 davidfetter moritz, sounds like C ;)
19:36 tadzik :)
19:36 whiteknight and it doesn't do everything that PBC can do, and there is magic in the language which cannot currently be reproduced in other languages without compiling down to PIR
19:36 benabik davidfetter: It's too low-level to be C.  :-(
19:36 whiteknight PASM can't even do everything PIR can do because of the magic
19:36 dodathome joined #parrot
19:36 lucian davidfetter: i agree with whiteknight on this, i don't think anyone should ever be writing assembly, no matter how high-level it is
19:37 Coke__ left #parrot
19:37 Coke joined #parrot
19:37 davidfetter lucian, i'm not disagreeing, generally. there are still cases in the postgresql source code (as in OS kernel code, and for similar reasons) where people code assembly
19:38 davidfetter spinlocks, e.g.
19:38 Util Replacing IMCC with something more hackable should allow us to enhance PASM to allow for hand-coding the PIR-only tricks.
19:38 dalek TT #1217 closed by Util++: [PATCH] t/dynpmc/foo.t converted to PIR
19:38 dalek TT #1217: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1217
19:38 lucian davidfetter: sure, but they're small niches, and getting smaller
19:38 davidfetter yep
19:39 dukeleto davidfetter: anything good happen at the PL/summit that I should know and/or that is relevant to PL/Parrot?
19:39 lucian and in PIR's case, it's not necessary
19:39 lucian look at the JVM, its bytecode doesn't even have a standard textual form
19:40 davidfetter dukeleto, lessee. there was general agreement that we really need a base PL library, and some work towards implementing one in the form of a PL/NULL, which would act as a skeleton PL
19:41 dukeleto davidfetter: sounds promising. the docs could then be a description of how that works
19:41 davidfetter well, i see PL/NULL as an intermediate step to PL.h (or whatever we'd call it)
19:52 bluescreen left #parrot
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20:09 silug joined #parrot
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20:14 jsut left #parrot
20:16 dalek parrot: 0624802 | dukeleto++ | / (2 files):
20:16 dalek parrot: Merge pull request #133 from ligne/socket_test_races
20:16 dalek parrot:
20:16 dalek parrot: fix test error when port 1234 is already bound.
20:16 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/0624802372
20:19 Coke_ anyone with tuits who could poke at the macport patch would be appreciates.
20:19 Coke_ *d
20:23 davidfetter Coke, we normally refer to that as, "the Scottish Packaging System" out of an abundance of caution
20:40 dodathome left #parrot
20:40 benabik Yay, GSoC work: https://github.com/Benabik/parrot/commit/​1e43ccf1c7c75d382493e54d0cc20560ee0acce5
20:41 Coke_ davidfetter: I'm an ex-theatre geek, and *thbbbthp*
20:42 davidfetter Coke_, heh
20:51 cotto_work benabik: it makes me very happy to see progress\
20:52 benabik Hm.  Needed to fix that merge.  Old link may no longer be valid, but this one will: https://github.com/Benabik/parrot/commits/nqp_pct
20:52 benabik cotto_work: Feels good to make progress.  Now I need to figure out this whole "get it to build" part.  :-D
20:52 soh_cah_toa joined #parrot
20:55 cotto_work benabik: that's a key step
20:55 cotto_work speaking of getting things to build...
20:55 cotto_work hi soh_cah_toa
20:56 benabik dun dun dunnnnnn
20:56 soh_cah_toa cotto_work: lol, i saw that coming :)
20:56 soh_cah_toa cotto_work: right now i'm changing all references to 'pdb' to 'hbdb'
20:57 cotto_work I'm going have trouble not subvocalizing that to "hubdub"
20:57 benabik hbdb?
20:57 soh_cah_toa benabik: honey bee debugger
20:57 cotto_work that's the name for his debugger
20:57 soh_cah_toa benabik: it's a nickname i gave to one of my cats
20:57 benabik soh_cah_toa: cats++
20:57 cotto_work It's like a parrot, but smaller
20:57 soh_cah_toa ha :)
20:58 benabik Totally is.  My cat loves to sit on my shoulder even
20:58 benabik (Well, one of them.)
20:58 soh_cah_toa benabik: yay, another cat lover
21:00 fperrad left #parrot
21:10 hercynium left #parrot
21:20 allison lucian: pong (much later)
21:20 lucian allison: what's up? i still have exams ...
21:21 lucian i've been wondering, do you think pynie could be reused after all?
21:21 allison lucian: I was just responding to your ping
21:21 allison lucian: there's not much to reclaim, just NQP stuff, and a few tiny test files
21:21 lucian if i could start with the object model (next week likely), i could possibly get faster to a solution
21:22 allison lucian: pynie didn't have an object model
21:22 lucian i know
21:22 lucian but it did have a compiler
21:22 allison lucian: CPython has a better compiler
21:22 lucian yeah, i know
21:23 lucian i was just wondering if i could postpone writing a backend to that, to save time
21:23 whiteknight lucian: I thought writing that backend was your project
21:23 allison lucian: so, in terms of reuse, you'll save more time reusing the one that's complete,  than one that's very limited
21:24 lucian whiteknight: the object model was more interesting, a compiler backend already exists
21:24 whiteknight or, a majority of your project
21:24 lucian allison: right. i guess you're right, i haven't been able to fix pynie last time i tried
21:25 allison lucian: at this point, I'd say a fresh start will be faster and far less frustrating
21:25 * lucian nods
21:27 lucian allison: right, so i'll go with that
21:27 whiteknight left #parrot
21:27 lucian hopefully i'll find some time this week as well
21:29 allison lucian: when are you done with exams?
21:29 lucian allison: last one is on the 1st
21:31 lucian allison: i'll try to get some work done before that, too
21:31 lucian it's very frustrating how late uni ends
21:31 lucian last year it was much better
21:32 allison lucian: that sounds good, and yeah the schedule overlaps are tough
21:32 tadzik yeah...
21:36 mj41 left #parrot
21:39 cotto_work After reading today's tdwtf, I've come to the conclusion that cached boxing conversions are a necessary feature for the next release.
21:39 cotto_work http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/D​isgruntled-Bomb-Java-Edition.aspx
21:40 benabik Hm.  NQP doesn't want to compile a class named PAST::Node because one is already loaded.  :-(
21:46 benabik Or I screwed up the Makefile.  Take two?
21:52 davidfetter left #parrot
22:16 Andy left #parrot
22:34 kid51 joined #parrot
22:42 mikehh dukeleto: ping
23:11 mtk left #parrot
23:12 NotFound Enjoy: https://github.com/NotFound/WinxedGtk
23:14 tadzik awesome
23:16 NotFound No Makefile yet, to test it you must manually do: "winxed -c -o pir/WinxedGtk.pir src/WinxedGtk.winxed" before executing setup.
23:16 NotFound And that's enough for today, bye.
23:17 cotto_work NotFound++
23:17 cotto_work aloha: clock?
23:17 aloha cotto_work: LAX: Mon, 16:17 PDT / CHI: Mon, 18:17 CDT / NYC: Mon, 19:17 EDT / UTC: Mon, 23:17 UTC / LON: Tue, 00:17 BST / BER: Tue, 01:17 CEST / TOK: Tue, 08:17 JST / SYD: Tue, 09:17 EST
23:17 cotto_work 'night
23:18 mtk joined #parrot
23:18 dalek parrot: dc7d625 | jkeenan++ | t/dynpmc/foo- (10 files):
23:18 dalek parrot: [codingstd] Correct format of copyright notice. These are all new files, so we only need 2011 in notice.
23:18 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/dc7d62536c
23:21 daniel-s joined #parrot
23:28 atrodo left #parrot
23:31 lucian left #parrot
23:31 dalek parrot: 580f68f | jkeenan++ | t/dynpmc/foo-07.t:
23:31 dalek parrot: [codingstd] No trailing whitespace.
23:31 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/580f68fdc1
23:31 dalek parrot: bc3b59a | jkeenan++ | t/dynpmc/foo- (10 files):
23:31 dalek parrot: [codingstd] Need coda for PIR, not for Perl 5.
23:31 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/bc3b59a786
23:32 dukeleto kid51: which dates will you be in NC for YAPC::NA ?
23:33 kid51 Sun afternoon - Thu afternoon
23:34 dukeleto kid51: and the hackathon is wednesday?
23:34 cotto_work http://www.yapc2011.us/yn2​011/wiki?node=Parrot/Perl6 Hackathon
23:35 cotto_work Thursday all day and either Tuesday or Wednesday evening
23:35 kid51 is now known as kid51_at_dinner
23:41 whiteknight joined #parrot
23:41 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
23:46 whiteknight it feels very good to be able to say that again
23:47 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 26 commits to Rosella by Whiteknight
23:48 cotto_work wb, whiteknight
23:49 whiteknight hello cotto_work
23:49 cotto_work nice to have you back online
23:49 whiteknight it's nice to be back :)
23:52 cotto_work I guess lawnmowers are the new bus.

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