Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-07-20

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:21 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/hbdb: e96bc4d | soh_cah_toa++ | src/hbdb.c:
00:21 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/hbdb: Changed "help" command so that the "nop" command is not displayed since it's not a real command.
00:21 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/hbdb: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e96bc4dc33
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00:45 dalek parrot: 9e16438 | allison++ | ports/debian/ (6 files):
00:45 dalek parrot: Changes from Debian packages for 3.3 release.
00:45 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/9e1643878d
00:45 dalek parrot: 7f3317a | allison++ | / (2 files):
00:45 dalek parrot: Minor spelling inconsistency that triggers package warnings
00:45 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/7f3317a478
00:45 dalek parrot: e3f816d | allison++ | / (404 files):
00:45 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:parrot/parrot
00:45 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e3f816d5d3
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00:50 allison um, git expert?
00:52 * benabik can provide help with git, but is unsure about 'expert'.
00:52 allison well, I just made two commits
00:52 allison one makes sense
00:53 allison the other was a two line change, that's now showing up as touching 400 files
00:53 allison that makes no sense whatsoever
00:54 benabik I think that represents all the changes in parrot master since you branched off.
00:54 benabik I'll check.
00:54 allison "Showing 400 changed files with 86,282 additions and 56,972 deletions. "
00:54 allison that's what I suspected :(
00:55 allison you can just rip that commit out
00:55 allison it's a two-line change
00:55 cotto_work I suspect that it's a scary but otherwise harmless merge commit
00:56 allison why did it lob the whole mess into the second commit?
00:56 benabik Yes.  The "400 changed files" are all the files that changed on master...  The merge itself appears to have no painful changes.
00:57 allison whew, nearly gave me heart-attack there...
00:57 benabik It didn't.  You pushed three commits.  Two normal ones and a merge.
00:57 cotto_work no bytes were harmed in the making of this commit
00:58 soh_cah_toa allison: doing a `git pull --rebase` before committing eliminates that
00:58 soh_cah_toa er, pushing, that is
01:01 allison can I (or someone) delete the useless merge, so it doesn't clutter up the history?
01:03 benabik It's not terribly cluttering.
01:03 soh_cah_toa i think you can only undo a merge if it was done locally. once it's pushed, i'm not sure if that's possible
01:03 benabik And generally changing published history is considered somewhat evil.
01:04 cotto_work It's possible but not recommended unless there a genuinely bad commit.
01:04 benabik soh_cah_toa: Git will happily change the refs any way you want it do.  I could replace the entire history with a single commit saying "Look what I wrote"
01:04 soh_cah_toa yikes, that sounds bad
01:04 cotto_work benabik: please don't. ;]
01:04 soh_cah_toa which is why i've never seen how to do that :)
01:04 benabik You have to tell it that you really want to though.
01:05 benabik And since many other people have the correct history, they'd just take away my commit bit and put it back.
01:05 cotto_work Hopefully if you know how, you know better.
01:06 allison heh, the one time I actually want to rewrite history :)
01:08 allison any recommendations on a svn/bzr/hg interface to git?
01:08 allison all the google results go the opposite way (a git interface to svn/bzr/hg)
01:10 allison ah... https://github.com/blog/626-announcing-svn-support
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01:11 benabik `git clone http://mirror.github.com/http​://svn.github.com/rails/rails`
01:12 benabik That URL bothers me.
01:12 cotto_work that's not a typo?
01:12 benabik No, although it doesn't work either.
01:12 cotto_work phew
01:17 allison it was an april fools thread, lots of random ideas :)
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04:17 dukeleto allison: what exactly are you trying to do?
04:17 allison dukeleto: with what?
04:20 GeJ allison: https://launchpad.net/bzr-git ?
04:26 dukeleto > allison: any recommendations on a svn/bzr/hg interface to git?
04:26 dukeleto allison: are you looking for read-write in both directions? Only one way?
04:29 sorear dukeleto: from analyzing backlog, it appears allison does not like the git-core CLI and wants something more familiar to use for Parrot hacking
04:30 allison dukeleto: yah, looking to wrap git in a simple "update"/"commit" interface
04:33 allison dukeleto: curiously, I've been using git more lately for other projects, I just get annoyed when it bites me
04:33 dukeleto allison: one thing to note is that Github now has a web interface for editing files and committing, all in the browser
04:33 dukeleto allison: for small changes of a few lines, especially docs, it is very handy
04:33 allison dukeleto: not so useful for applying patches
04:34 soh_cah_toa oh, very nice
04:34 soh_cah_toa github is so awesome
04:34 dukeleto allison: are you using "git apply" for patches?
04:35 allison dukeleto: nope
04:35 dukeleto allison: what does your simple update/commit interface feel like?
04:35 allison foo checkout X
04:36 allison work work work
04:36 allison foo commit
04:36 allison foo update
04:36 allison work work work
04:36 allison foo commit
04:36 dukeleto allison: what does update do? what does it update? a remote?
04:36 allison dukeleto: lol :)
04:36 allison dukeleto: you think like a git user :)
04:37 dukeleto allison: what else should I think like? ;)
04:37 allison dukeleto: update local to remote
04:38 dukeleto allison: and how do you want to say "update my local stuff" ?
04:38 allison foo update
04:38 allison svn up
04:39 allison dukeleto: but, I don't really have time to mess with it
04:40 allison dukeleto: someday I'll write a tool, maybe when I retire :)
04:49 allison dukeleto: hmm... maybe I can just make some handy shell aliases...
04:55 dalek parrot: 65041c4 | soh_cah_toa++ | src/runcore/ (2 files):
04:55 dalek parrot: Fixed a few perldoc errors in src/runcore/* by adding =cut tags at the end.
04:55 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/65041c49ce
05:07 soh_cah_toa don't we have a script that looks for TODO comments in p5 code?
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05:43 cotto ~~
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06:26 moritz_ ack -w TODO src/
06:26 moritz_ ack --perl -w TODO src/ # if you really only want perl files
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08:13 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: e923236 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: unnegate a condition, because it is easier to read that way. No functional change
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e9232369a0
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: d724066 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: get the very simplest case of indirect name lookups via ::() working
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d7240666d6
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08:40 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: b5cd9ac | moritz++ | src/core/operators.pm:
08:40 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: deal gracefully with NYI case of ::() lookups
08:40 dalek rakudo/nom-indirect-name-lookup: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b5cd9ac197
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: fcd142d | moritz++ | src/ (3 files):
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: first attempt at indirect name loookup.
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom:
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: Does not work yet, method term:sym<name> in Actions.pm needs to learn
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: not to touch indirect name lookups first
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fcd142d9ce
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: e923236 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: unnegate a condition, because it is easier to read that way. No functional change
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e9232369a0
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: d724066 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: get the very simplest case of indirect name lookups via ::() working
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d7240666d6
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: b5cd9ac | moritz++ | src/core/operators.pm:
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: deal gracefully with NYI case of ::() lookups
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b5cd9ac197
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: 0f7be02 | moritz++ | src/ (3 files):
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge branch 'nom-indirect-name-lookup' into nom
09:00 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0f7be0264a
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10:41 smash hello everyone
10:43 Felipe hello
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11:44 * Coke ponders again trying out a git-svn workflow for his work. (since there's no way the other developers will ever use git over svn)
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12:15 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
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13:23 * whiteknight loves to see tests pass
13:31 dalek NQR: d783008 | (Jay Emerson)++ | STATUS:
13:31 dalek NQR: Attending a conference... progress stalled for the moment.
13:31 dalek NQR: review: https://github.com/NQRCore/NQR/commit/d7830084d6
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13:47 Felipe whiteknight: morning :)
13:47 Felipe could someone take a look at my pull request?
13:49 whiteknight Felipe: sure
13:49 whiteknight good morning
13:50 whiteknight I'm building now
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13:58 whiteknight Felipe: If you're going to be making a lot of patches, you should send in a CLA
13:58 whiteknight We'll make you a committer
14:01 Coke man. i have a small svn repo with 473 commits. I'm doing a "git svn fetch" on it now, and it's slooooww. I cannot image how long this took when I was git-svn'ing parrot.
14:02 whiteknight Coke: hours
14:03 Felipe whiteknight: thanks
14:08 Felipe whiteknight: can I send it (CLA) via PDF?
14:08 whiteknight Felipe: yes, there is a fax or email option
14:08 whiteknight I don't remember the details. The CLA document should tell you what tod o
14:09 whiteknight to do
14:09 Felipe k, I'll read it.
14:09 dalek parrot: a4dd9e0 | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/ (3 files):
14:09 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'master' of git://github.com/felipensp/parrot
14:09 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a4dd9e08c1
14:09 dalek parrot: a3d4738 | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/imcparser. (2 files):
14:09 dalek parrot: Re-generate lex and yacc files. Merge pull request from Felipe++
14:09 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/a3d4738706
14:10 whiteknight pull request merged. Felipe++
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14:13 Felipe whiteknight++ thanks!
14:21 dalek TT #1640 closed by Felipe++: Method names that start with '@' are not recognized.
14:21 dalek TT #1640: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1640
14:30 * NotFound is flaming the mailing lists about windows support
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14:38 * whiteknight is flaming the windows code
14:38 dalek parrot: bd1c96d | Whiteknight++ | src/platform/win32/dl.c:
14:38 dalek parrot: Add in a slightly less bad, but still no better, hack to find libc functions on windows. Instead of looking up modules by string name, which are guaranteed to change because 'why the heck not?', we can use an undocumented trick to find the HMODULE owner for a particular function pointer. See in-code comments and TT #2150 for more details.
14:38 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/bd1c96d8c2
14:38 * whiteknight needs a shower after that filth
14:38 * Coke agrees with kevin, and has already done that.
14:39 * Coke needs to have a big button to push to run a fresh smoke on parrot on windows. (right now I need 2 windows open, so cannot script it)
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14:42 NotFound whiteknight: that hack is for finding libc functions, or libparrot functions?
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14:44 NotFound NM, have seen it now.
14:44 whiteknight NotFound: if you have a free moment, would you be able to run a quick smolder report from winxp with that fix?
14:45 whiteknight it works here on win7, I want to make sure it goes back to winxp
14:45 NotFound I'll do, but I'm increasingly losing sympathy for that kind of things.
14:46 whiteknight you don't have to if you don't want to. If nobody uses it, we don't need to care if it's broken
14:47 whiteknight I have a windows VM I use for iTunes. I can try to set up activeperl and MSVC on it
14:47 NotFound I don't mind doing it, but I dislike people implying that we have a morale imperative to do it.
14:50 whiteknight no. no moral imperative.
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14:54 NotFound Oh, and I mention windows just because I've do parrot things on it several times, but the same applies to Mac OS whatever.
14:55 Coke whiteknight: I have a dev box I use for work that I will try to regularly smoke on windows going forward.
14:56 Coke I don't think there's a /moral/ imperitive. I think that if we ever want parrot to be USED, having it work on windows is kind of a requirement.
14:56 whiteknight Coke: I'm not trying to guilt more people into setting up more windows smokers. It's the lack of developers on those systems that's the big hassle
14:56 whiteknight like before the 3.6 release, we know for two weeks that there were test failures on windows, and they didn't get fixed until the monday before a big release
14:56 Coke whiteknight: Yup. More addressed at NF.
14:56 whiteknight finding bugs is not a problem, getting those bugs fixed is the big challenge
14:57 NotFound Coke: it may be a requirement for people that use windows a lot. Not for me.
14:57 whiteknight I use windows at work, but it's hard to spend more than a few seconds at a time looking at Parrot code when I'm supposed to be clocked in and doing $dayjob
14:57 Coke NotFound: to each their own, obviously. I think it needs to be a goal of /the foundation/ to drive that sort of thing.
14:57 Coke (which, as a director, no doubt I did a crappy job at. Now I blame whiteknight instead, much easier)
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15:00 NotFound Coke: if the sort of thing is portability in general, I can agree. If it's specific for one, I disagree, no matter how popular it may be.
15:00 whiteknight having smolder working, and having smokers running is a big first step, and a very important one to take
15:01 whiteknight As I said in my one email, we don't have a defined list of supported platforms anymore, at least not an updated one
15:01 whiteknight Windows XP very well may not be supported or supportable anymore
15:02 NotFound whiteknight: I'm not opposed. Some months ago there was a check in the codebase demanding W 2000 or later.
15:02 whiteknight NotFound: If we have a parrot hacker on winxp, that's one thing. If we don't have any hackers, and can't even buy a new copy of it, that's hard to get around
15:02 whiteknight so we have to hope that people have winxp still installed, or still have their cds around
15:03 NotFound I just mention that XP is the only Windows platform I have available. If parrot doesn't build on it, I can't check anything windows related. I will survive.
15:04 benabik I have XP around, although I have no dev envrionment set up for it right now.
15:04 whiteknight putting together a list of supported platforms seems like it's something a product-managerish person should be responsible for
15:04 NotFound But maybe windows support don't survive ;)
15:22 NotFound whiteknight: nciutils.t still fails
15:22 whiteknight damnit
15:30 RobertLJ sorry I am coing into the conversation a bit late .. is there a need for smoke testing on Windows ?
15:31 RobertLJ I have access to Win7 .. and have buit parrot  using Strawberry perl in the past
15:33 NotFound RobertLJ: yes, will be good to see if the problem is the same in Win7 than in XP.
15:33 RobertLJ Is the somke server currently available ?
15:33 NotFound RobertLJ: yes
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15:34 RobertLJ so what is needed is for someone to run smoke test on windows for win XP and Windows 7 ?
15:34 RobertLJ is that correct ?
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15:36 NotFound RobertLJ: I've do it with strawberry in XP, having a smoke with strawberry in Windows 7 in order to compare is what can help now.
15:36 NotFound In the long run, having regular smokes from both will be nice.
15:37 RobertLJ got ya .. I think I can help with that
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15:37 RobertLJ this is great .. been loking for a way to get involved in parrot
15:38 whiteknight RobertLJ++
15:38 NotFound There's more than one way to get involved ;)
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15:38 RobertLJ I'm sure there is a long list ;-)
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15:49 whiteknight it's good to get started somewhere
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15:54 dalek rakudo/nom: 2357ca6 | moritz++ | src/core/Str.pm:
15:54 dalek rakudo/nom: implement Str.split(Regex, :$all) -- no limit yet
15:54 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2357ca6d3e
15:55 dukeleto ~~
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16:03 dalek rakudo/nom: 69fe226 | moritz++ | src/core/operators.pm:
16:03 dalek rakudo/nom: implement indirect name lookup of composed names ::("X::Base")
16:03 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/69fe22654e
16:06 NotFound whiteknight: the module that find_module_from_func(atoi) returns here is libparrot
16:10 whiteknight it should return the libparrot module the first time. Should return the libc module the second
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16:15 NotFound Looks like the msvcrt lib that this thing is using is static.
16:16 NotFound So it is linked into libparrot, and GetProcAddress does not found the symbol because it hasn't extern linkage attributes.
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16:23 Felipe whiteknight: I've sent the CLA.
16:24 whiteknight Felipe++. I'll look at it as soon as I get it
16:24 whiteknight NotFound: That sucks. There might be no solution
16:25 whiteknight We could try to dynamically load msvcrt anyway, but that might cause problems
16:28 whiteknight Felipe: Got it. Next tuesday at our weekly meeting in #parrotsketch, we'll nominate you and vote on it
16:29 NotFound The simple solution is to delete the tests and document that getting symbols from the C std library is platform dependant and not granted to work.
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16:30 whiteknight I like that solution
16:30 whiteknight Comment on TT #2150
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16:31 Felipe whiteknight: okay, thanks.
16:31 jsut joined #parrot
16:32 whiteknight Felipe: Meeting is every week, 19:30 UTC, in #parrotsketch. You can attend if you want
16:33 whiteknight People give reports before the meeting: What you did last week, what you will do, what tickets you worked on, what you are blocked on, etc
16:33 RobertLJ left #parrot
16:33 whiteknight Then we chat and ask questions and stuff
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16:34 NotFound whiteknight: commented
16:34 whiteknight NotFound++
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16:38 cotto ~~
16:40 cotto does dalek still do rss feeds?  I don't see any blogs in misc/dalek-conf.json
16:41 whiteknight I don't know
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16:45 benabik If it does, maybe we should point it a Planet Parrot.
16:45 cotto That'd be fine by me.
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16:46 dalek parrot: e890ebe | dukeleto++ | docs/project/support_policy.pod:
16:46 dalek parrot: [doc] Remove some antiquated references to svn--
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16:46 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e890ebee48
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16:50 benabik karma svn
16:50 aloha svn has karma of -21.
16:50 benabik hehe
16:50 benabik svn can now drink negative beer
16:52 cotto benabik, you misspelled svn--
16:53 cotto common mistake
16:53 cotto ;]
16:53 benabik cotto++ # helping me fix my spelling
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17:23 dukeleto attempting to use PHP's PEAR really makes you appreciate CPAN
17:24 atrodo dukeleto> Are you sure you don't want PECL?
17:25 dukeleto atrodo: maybe i do
17:26 dukeleto atrodo: what I actually want is PHP code coverage that doesn't suck
17:28 atrodo dukeleto> Can't help you there.  Just have never been able to figure out the mess that is php's libraries
17:28 cotto_work ~~
17:28 dukeleto atrodo: PECL seems to be for C extensions to PHP (what could go wrong? tests? what are tests?) and seem to be compatible with PEAR
17:29 dukeleto cotto_work: have you ever used a PHP code coverage utility that you didn't hate?
17:29 cotto_work dukeleto: they have those?
17:29 atrodo dukeleto> That's what I seem to recall as well.  But I could never figure out why they needed multiple extension libraries.
17:30 dukeleto cotto_work: indeed they do, but not many use them.
17:31 * atrodo has still never figured out why cpan is still so good compared to everyone else
17:31 whiteknight volume
17:31 cotto_work dukeleto: I'm more surprised that they have coverage tools than that they don't use them.
17:31 whiteknight We really need coverage tools for Parrot
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17:32 cotto_work dukeleto: what's your interest in php?
17:32 dukeleto http://phpcoverage.sourceforge.net is one coverage tool
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17:33 dukeleto lucian: howdy
17:34 lucian dukeleto: hi
17:34 lucian re. aloha, i didn't really have anything to blog about
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17:35 dukeleto lucian: you can blog about what your current status is, and what you have tried that didn't work, and what you will try next
17:35 dukeleto lucian: there is plenty to blog about
17:36 lucian ok
17:36 dukeleto lucian: it is also your soapbox to describe what things in parrot need to be improved
17:36 dukeleto lucian: which I am sure you have plenty to say about :)
17:36 lucian perhaps :)
17:36 dalek rakudo/nom: e2279de | pmichaud++ | src/core/Numeric.pm:
17:36 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix .count for various numeric operators.  flussence++ .
17:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e2279dedc9
17:39 atrodo wait, when did lucian have stong opinions about improvements to parrot? ;)
17:39 atrodo Since we talked about the subject, does plumage have a website?
17:43 dukeleto atrodo: i have been thinking that it needs one. We need something like http://modules.perl6.org
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17:51 whiteknight I would like to get on the parrot.github.org bandwagon
17:52 whiteknight We can have a lot more flexibility to add new pages and content there than we would have on parrot.org
17:52 whiteknight parrot.github.org/plumage would be a great page for it
17:53 atrodo I would vote for it's own website
17:54 whiteknight is it worth the infrastructure costs, in terms of manpower and maybe even money?
17:55 whiteknight If we're doing the github pages thing, We could have a website up tonight
17:55 whiteknight and all current parrot hackers with a commit bit could edit it
17:56 atrodo I would guess in the long term it would be.  Although, I'm thinking it'd be like cpan is now
17:56 whiteknight okay, I'm not thinking of anything so grandiose
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17:56 dukeleto atrodo: easier said than done
17:56 dukeleto whiteknight: i am with you
17:56 whiteknight plumage is basically just a metadata store, it doesn't contain the actual packages
17:56 atrodo dukeleto> I'm aware.  Something quick for now would do
17:58 dukeleto something like http://pgxn.org/ is something to shoot for in the long term. But github pages for now...
17:58 dukeleto whiteknight: if you start a gh-pages branch in plumage.git, i will help
17:59 whiteknight okay, I may play with that tonight
17:59 whiteknight Plumage really doesn't get enough love. I want to get in there and clean up the code too
18:00 whiteknight I've thought about putting together a replacement with winxed/rosella, but I haven't yet
18:02 whiteknight plus, I don't want to deal with the bootstrapping issues
18:03 dukeleto whiteknight: plumage does what it tries to do well, currently. Why do we need to refactor it yet again? We need your refactoring abillities in core more than in Plumage
18:03 whiteknight dukeleto: You can't contain me. I'm like a free spirit, man
18:03 atrodo Does plumage have a database it pulls from for packages?
18:03 whiteknight atrodo: a json file, I think
18:03 whiteknight or yaml
18:03 dukeleto atrodo: yeah, project.json in the root of the plumage.git repo, methinks
18:04 cotto_work I notice that master still hasn't broken.
18:04 whiteknight atrodo: https://github.com/parrot/pluma​ge/tree/master/plumage/metadata
18:04 dukeleto atrodo: i lied. https://github.com/parrot/pluma​ge/tree/master/plumage/metadata
18:04 whiteknight cotto_work: I'm doing my best!
18:04 dukeleto whiteknight-- for beating me
18:04 atrodo Yay! Data overload!
18:05 writtencode Hey guys, just want to point out something in the docs about the grammar (http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/​html/docs/book/pct/ch04_pge.pod.html) - Under "Rules and Tokens", there's the line "The record rule given previously would match "6355 John" or "6355 John" but not "6355John"." The two examples of what would work appear to be exactly the same; I assume there's supposed to be an endline or extra space, but there ddoesn't
18:05 whiteknight writtencode: yes, that does look suspicious
18:06 writtencode Mm'k, hope it helps :)
18:06 whiteknight We'll have to figure out what it is supposed to be, then fix it.
18:06 dukeleto whiteknight: hey, IMCC called and said that it disgraced your village, and that you should stop trying to contain its freewheelin' antics, man
18:07 writtencode It's about smart whitespace matching, so it probably just needs blatant extra whitespace characters
18:07 whiteknight dukeleto: THE BASTARD! IT'S CLOBBERING TIME!
18:07 atrodo dukeleto++
18:08 * dukeleto imagines IMCC riding a hog in Easy Rider, flipping off whiteknight++
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18:13 atrodo whiteknight> ping
18:14 whiteknight pong
18:14 atrodo whiteknight> I wanted to pick your brain real quick if you have a few minutes
18:14 atrodo (about m0/lorito)
18:15 whiteknight yeah, sure
18:16 atrodo whiteknight> So I'm thinking again about how you would take a complete m0, and replace parts, but not all, of parrot with it
18:16 atrodo And I'm just unable to figure out how it would work
18:17 whiteknight atrodo: My thought is this: We set up a preprocessing utility that converts M0 into C code
18:17 whiteknight like how pmc2c converts the crappy pmc language into regular C
18:17 whiteknight or ops2c does the same thing
18:18 dalek TT #2161 created by whiteknight++: Whitespace confusion in PCT docs
18:18 dalek TT #2161: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2161
18:18 whiteknight Basically, the idea is that we can write M0 code long before we have to be interpreting it through the M0 runloop. Divorce the two ideas
18:18 whiteknight Write the code and have it be translated to C as part of the build
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18:19 dukeleto whiteknight: quite subversive and nefarious. I like it.
18:19 whiteknight Then, when you have everything in M0 that you want to have in it, you can start changing the build to compile it down to bytecode instead and change the way we call into it
18:20 atrodo whiteknight> So you'd have to change all/most the C code before you can start introducing an actual m0 runcore?
18:20 dukeleto atrodo: why do you say that?
18:20 whiteknight atrodo: On a per-subsystem basis
18:20 atrodo whiteknight> Yes
18:21 whiteknight rewrite one subsystem in M0, then change that system to execute through the runloop
18:21 dukeleto atrodo: for instance, simple PMCs should be able to be converted to M0 without most of the rest of Parrot being in M0
18:21 whiteknight A few macros placed judiciously would allow us to do a compile-time switch between C mode and M0 mode
18:21 dukeleto I think implementing the Integer PMC in M0 or mole will be a valuable litmus test.
18:21 atrodo dukeleto> right.  But you wouldn't have a m0 runcore until all or most of the internals are converted to m0
18:22 whiteknight I think taking the Integer PMC out back and shooting it with a shotgun filled with used medical syringes would be better
18:22 dukeleto whiteknight: what pmc would you prefer? and why so much hate for Integer PMC?
18:23 whiteknight Something that isn't so tangled up with the Scalar PMC would be better
18:23 whiteknight *PMCArray would be better, methinks
18:24 lucian writtencode: it might even be desirable to keep the option of compiling to C
18:24 atrodo whiteknight> Feelings for inanimate concepts aside, let's take a simple example that is causing me a major road block.  And perhaps it's not applicable to PMCs as much as other subsystems
18:24 whiteknight atrodo: sure
18:25 atrodo whiteknight> What about impedance mismatches between m0 and parrot.  The example that comes to mind is registers
18:25 atrodo If a section of C code is accessing parrot registers, how would that translate appropriately into m0, who's concept of registers is slightly differnt
18:26 whiteknight very very few places in parrot interact with registers at the PIR level directly
18:26 whiteknight like: maybe zero
18:26 atrodo What about PCC?
18:26 Coke nonzero, as I think pmichaud pointed out recently.
18:27 whiteknight okay, maybe one
18:27 whiteknight Accessing registers in the CallContext object from the C internals is very rare
18:28 whiteknight the ops usually rip things out of the registers, pass them to C functions, then store results back in registers. The ops are the interface for that kind of stuff
18:29 whiteknight atrodo: So I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at?
18:30 atrodo whiteknight> I thought the use of registers was more widespread than that, which would cause some impedance mismatches.
18:30 whiteknight PCC does it, MMD does it too, I think.
18:30 Coke whiteknight: http://smolder.parrot.org/app/​projects/report_details/18373
18:31 whiteknight no, nevermind. MMD pulls there registers out of the CallContext signature
18:31 whiteknight Coke++
18:31 atrodo whiteknight> So, take this at-some-point future scenario.  We have a working m0, runcore and mole.  There is even a ops2m0 written that will translate existing ops into sequences of m0 ops
18:32 atrodo The next step would be making parrot available to the m0 runcore in that scenario.
18:33 nopaste "Coke" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "This Parrot cannot read bytecode files with version 10" (7 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/63097
18:33 Coke blah.
18:33 dukeleto Coke: perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
18:33 atrodo So far, the only ideas I have had are to compile most of the existing parrot subsystems down to m0 through a c2m0 library so parrot would literally run on top of m0
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18:34 Coke dukeleto: that doesn't work, because GIT + C++ are not both available in the same shell.
18:34 Coke so I can't have the compile step automatically check things out via git for me.
18:35 dukeleto Coke: sounds like a bug in the operating system
18:35 whiteknight atrodo: That's basically what I am talking about with my idea, but a more gradual mechanism. Convert everything that's going to be converted to M0 and compile to C to test the semantics keep working
18:35 atrodo Or, there is a parrot interface PMC/m0 object that ops2m0 uses to call into parrot internals
18:35 Coke dukeleto: most helpful.
18:35 whiteknight atrodo: then, when you've translated everything that's going to be translated, we switch over so that it runs from the runloop
18:35 whiteknight brb
18:35 Coke this is very likely due to the fact that parrot doesn't have its act together when installing multiple simultaneous versions, is all.
18:36 Coke (esp. since we just changed the version of the bytecode with the release.)
18:37 Coke ah. more likely due to an old build of nqp and a new build of parrot.
18:48 whiteknight yes, that would definitely cause a problem
19:02 whiteknight What would it take to make multiple versions of Parrot installable simultaneously?
19:02 whiteknight I mean, do we know it can't be done?
19:02 jay ~~
19:02 whiteknight hello jay
19:02 jay I've got some benchmarks.  Interested?
19:03 whiteknight youbetcha
19:03 jay The task: calculate the mean of N pseudo-random exponentials.
19:04 jay In NQR, I have a simple PIR loop doing calls to R's random number generator, and the mean is calculated using the GNU Scientific library function.
19:05 jay Result: both R and NQR have linear complexity, but the slope is substantially higher for NQR.
19:05 jay The real difference (as far as I can tell): the PIR loop seems to be a much less efficient wrapper to the random number generation than R's C loops.
19:06 whiteknight I'm sure. We don't have JIT yet so that's a big part of it
19:06 jay I don't think there is any other overhead getting in the way.
19:06 jay Good to know -- good to know you aren't surprised, that is.
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19:06 whiteknight you wrote the loop in PIR? or you wrote it in NQR?
19:07 jay Well, the code is NQR, but I implemented the loop in PIR, yes, as runtime.
19:08 dukeleto whiteknight: it is because our configure subsystem makes assumptions that are dumb and wrong, and because parrot x.y.z and parrot x.y.z+commits are both installed into the same place
19:08 whiteknight okay
19:08 dukeleto whiteknight: if we installed dev versions into a directory containing a git-describe string, that would probably solve the "multiple simultaneous parrot versions" problem
19:08 whiteknight but, discrete versions can be installed simultaneously?
19:09 whiteknight like parrot 3.5.0 and parrot 3.6.0 can live peacefully?
19:09 dukeleto whiteknight: yes
19:09 whiteknight okay, nice
19:09 dukeleto whiteknight: because they live in different directories
19:09 whiteknight that doesn't seem like too hard a problem to solve
19:09 dukeleto whiteknight: but if master happens to be 100 commits past 3.6.0, it will still install into the 3.6.0 folder
19:09 jay When I build 3.6.0 I got a warning about possible conflicts with previously installed libparrot I think.  But I'm happily running the newest and greatest now, no problem.
19:10 dukeleto jay: yeah, that is because you had an older version of parrot installed. It can occasionally cause a build failure, but if stuff compiled, you are fine
19:14 jay If I have an NQR script, can I "compile" it, or compile the bytecode for faster performance?
19:15 jay < I could be asking the same question about squaak, of course >
19:15 whiteknight yes
19:16 whiteknight I need to double-check, but I think you can do something like this: "parrot-nqp --target=pir --output=foo.pir nqr.pbc foo.r
19:16 whiteknight "
19:16 moritz or maybe just
19:16 moritz ./nqp --target=pir foo.r > foo.pir
19:16 moritz erm
19:16 moritz ./nqr
19:16 moritz if you have a newer version that builds a fakexecutable
19:16 whiteknight yeah, that looks cleaner
19:17 jay will try...
19:19 jay Ok, I now seem to have a PIR file.  Can it be compiled to machine code now?
19:19 whiteknight and then once you have the .pir, you can do "parrot -o foo.pbc foo.pir" to get bytecode
19:19 jay LOL whiteknight++
19:19 whiteknight and "parrot foo.pbc" to run it
19:20 whiteknight I don't know how well that all works, especially if you have runtime files to include
19:23 jay Yeah, not so well...
19:23 jay jay@bayesman:~/Desktop/NQR$ parrot foo.pbc
19:23 jay Could not find sub !intarray
19:23 jay current instr.: '_block1000' pc 6 (foo.pir:8) (benchmark3.nqr:3)
19:23 whiteknight yeah, there's going to be a trick to it
19:23 moritz you might need to loade_bytecode your compiled runtime files in the generated files
19:23 jay that !intarray is my version of squaak's !array, defined in my runtime.
19:24 whiteknight jay, and that's in the main compiler file?
19:25 jay I thought so, I defined it in the top of Runtime.pm just as was done in squaak, so I thought that was used as an onload
19:29 jay I think we'll put this on the back burner for now.  I may need to put things in different places or do what moritz suggested with load_bytecode.
19:30 dalek NQR: d2afee1 | (Jay Emerson)++ | s (4 files):
19:30 dalek NQR: Vectorized rexp() and fixed mean()
19:30 dalek NQR: review: https://github.com/NQRCore/NQR/commit/d2afee1f96
19:30 whiteknight jay: I'll try to take a look at it soon
19:31 dalek NQR: 64e8759 | (Jay Emerson)++ | RANDOM.NOTES:
19:31 dalek NQR: Added whiteknight++ and moritz++ suggestions on compiling to
19:31 dalek NQR: my RANDOM.NOTES.
19:31 dalek NQR: review: https://github.com/NQRCore/NQR/commit/64e87598f9
19:31 jay Thanks.  Not really NQR-specific, you could in theory be interested in the same thing for a squaak script, right?
19:32 whiteknight right
19:32 dalek rakudo/nom: 823f449 | moritz++ | / (3 files):
19:32 dalek rakudo/nom: implement &floor and &reverse, add more test files
19:33 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/823f4491bc
19:33 whiteknight we'll get it working in NQR, then backport the knowledge to the docs
19:33 whiteknight it's the circle of life
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19:52 jay What is the state of threading?  (Trying to put together some slides for a talk)
19:53 whiteknight state_of_threading = 0
19:53 whiteknight er, maybe 0.5
19:53 jay Ok... "in the pipeline"?
19:53 whiteknight yes
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20:01 soh_cah_toa ~~
20:01 whiteknight hello soh_cah_toa
20:02 soh_cah_toa whiteknight: howdy
20:02 whiteknight how are you doing today?
20:03 soh_cah_toa not bad. trying to setup parrot on openbsd
20:03 soh_cah_toa which is not fun
20:04 whiteknight I imagine not. I used to do it a lot with solaris, but that really lost its appeal after a while
20:04 soh_cah_toa oh yeah, i've tried that too
20:04 whiteknight I had it working pretty well for a while, but I changed computers and never bothered reinstalling it
20:04 soh_cah_toa the real pain is getting used to a different package manager
20:05 whiteknight yeah
20:05 whiteknight what is it there, pkg?
20:05 soh_cah_toa yeah, you can use the pkg_* commands or the ports collection
20:06 soh_cah_toa it took me about 1+ hours yesterday to install git b/c the ports is just a bunch of Makefiles so i had to compile a TON of dependencies
20:07 bluescreen left #parrot
20:08 whiteknight ouch
20:09 soh_cah_toa oh yeah
20:09 soh_cah_toa we need the tests run though
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20:44 Coke TLILY
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20:49 dalek NQR: 948b2fa | (Jay Emerson)++ | benchmark3.nqr:
20:49 dalek NQR: Added a benchmark example script
20:49 dalek NQR: review: https://github.com/NQRCore/NQR/commit/948b2fae78
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21:01 dalek rakudo/nom: e6f6b27 | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
21:01 dalek rakudo/nom: basic Str.comb implementation
21:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e6f6b2776f
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22:44 soh_cah_toa test failures on openbsd: http://smolder.parrot.org/app/​projects/report_details/18391
22:48 Felipe hm
22:53 benabik installing Lion &
22:53 benabik left #parrot
22:55 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: looks like get_pointer doesn't work correctly, which is causing the extend_vtable test failure
22:56 soh_cah_toa eh, not too familiar w/ the vtable functions
22:56 soh_cah_toa looking at t/dynpmc/os.t though...looks like there no openbsd test at all
22:57 soh_cah_toa though i'm really bad at reading other people's tests :\
22:58 kid51 That's the first Smolder report we've had on OpenBSD since Sept 2010!
22:58 soh_cah_toa wow :O
22:59 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: the get_pointer test is saying that a NULL pointer was returned, which is why the test is failing
22:59 kid51 dukeleto: Is there some reason you haven't set up a smoker on OpenBSD at the compile farm?
22:59 soh_cah_toa hm
23:00 kid51 dukeleto: I would consider doing it, but not if you've already discovered it won't work
23:00 dukeleto kid51: when i tried, it wouldn't compile. Could have been a similar issue to the one that just got noticed by doughera++ and fixed
23:00 dukeleto kid51: i haven't tried in a few months
23:01 dukeleto kid51: i thought it was a memory issue/gc bug when i gave up
23:01 soh_cah_toa it compiles and installs fine now. just those tests fails
23:01 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: on that machine
23:02 soh_cah_toa yeah
23:02 * kid51 away phone
23:07 dalek parrot: d78ddd0 | dukeleto++ | t/README.pod:
23:07 dalek parrot: [doc] Add instructions about smoking parrot to the test suite readme
23:07 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/d78ddd08f6
23:08 soh_cah_toa dukeleto++
23:09 soh_cah_toa believe it or not, that's actually one of the hardest parts of installing parrot on openbsd. that's why i'm writing a "installing parrot on openbsd" guide for the wiki right now
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23:09 dalek parrot: 44aaea4 | dukeleto++ | t/README.pod:
23:09 dalek parrot: [doc] Add a note about the smolder_coretest makefile target to the test suite readme
23:09 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/44aaea4803
23:11 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
23:11 Felipe good evening
23:11 dukeleto whiteknight: howdy
23:12 dukeleto looks like the chroot test that fails on openbsd is either wrong, or should be skipped on openbsd. Possibly a security feature which prevents nested symbolic links
23:12 whiteknight hello Felipe, dukeleto
23:12 whiteknight dukeleto: I like writing new tests, I like getting rid of bad tests even more
23:12 soh_cah_toa ah
23:14 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: if that's the case, do you think it should just be skipped?
23:16 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: that is just my guess
23:17 soh_cah_toa looks like you're right: "too many levels of symbolic links"
23:19 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: yes, i read the test output to formulate my guess ;)
23:20 soh_cah_toa i didn't know how you knew that. i suck at this kinda stuff
23:22 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: the more you do it, the less suckage. I have been staring at byzantine test output for a few more years than you have :)
23:24 * dukeleto compiles parrot on the gcc compile farm openbsd machine, which is a  1  GHz Sun UltraSPARC-IIIi
23:25 Felipe :D
23:25 soh_cah_toa anyway, is it ok to just skip it on openbsd? i can have a patch in < 5 minutes
23:28 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: no, i misread the test output. the regex that the test is using to detect too many levels of links is wrong on openbsd
23:28 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: fix the regex so it is more forgiving
23:28 * soh_cah_toa looks
23:28 rdesfo joined #parrot
23:29 * kid51 back
23:29 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: checking if the output contains "chroot failed: Too many levels of symbolic links" is probably sufficient
23:29 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: or just "chroot failed"
23:29 soh_cah_toa ok
23:30 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: this is the problem with not having exception objects
23:30 dukeleto if only chromatic were here to scold us
23:30 kid51 soh_cah_toa: Do you have a dedicated openbsd box? A vm?  An account somewhere?
23:31 soh_cah_toa kid51: both vm and box. though the smoke report was from a vm
23:31 kid51 Very interesting.  I often go to the NYC BSD User group meeting (albeit mostly for the beer).
23:32 kid51 But they're mostly sysadmins, netadmins, etc., so languages and process VMs are not their major interest.
23:32 soh_cah_toa right
23:33 kid51 If I found someone like that in NYC who was interested in Parrot, that would be an incentive for me to learn more about BSD.
23:33 kid51 I know Linux more only because of (a) Linode; (b) day job.
23:34 kid51 If I could get something like Linode on FreeBSD, I'd definitely explore it.
23:34 * kid51 doesn't like hardware
23:34 soh_cah_toa i actually like freebsd a lot more than openbsd but openbsd is a lot more secure
23:35 kid51 I've gone to several editions of the NYC BSD conference.
23:35 soh_cah_toa cool, didn't know there was one
23:35 kid51 We had George Neville-Neil speak at Perl Seminar NY
23:35 kid51 In fact, I quoted him in a parrot.org blog last October
23:36 Tene kid51: I've got a VM server here that's not doing much; I'd be glad to give you a VM to install freebsd on.
23:36 soh_cah_toa oh, very neat
23:36 kid51 probably: nycbug.org
23:36 Tene or anyone else here
23:36 kid51 Tene: I'll definitely consider that
23:36 kid51 ... but now I have to start working on my FOSSCON talk/slides
23:36 * soh_cah_toa will brb
23:37 Tene anyone who wants VMs for parrot hacking or testing, email me at allalone.org
23:38 kid51 afk
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23:41 * dukeleto notes that it took 10 minutes to compile the parrot core ops on gcc64 (must easier to type than "the openbsd compile farm machine that happens to be a sparc")
23:41 dalek parrot.github.com: 25b81ce | Whiteknight++ | index.md:
23:41 dalek parrot.github.com: test
23:41 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/25b81ceb03
23:44 dalek parrot.github.com: d3643a7 | Whiteknight++ | _layouts/site.html:
23:44 dalek parrot.github.com: Redo the layout as a quick skeleton
23:44 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/d3643a7ab1
23:47 * soh_cah_toa is back
23:48 dalek parrot.github.com: 03c512e | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
23:48 dalek parrot.github.com: borrow liberally from docs.parrot.org
23:48 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/03c512e92e
23:49 dalek parrot.github.com: b752ef7 | Whiteknight++ | _layouts/site.html:
23:49 dalek parrot.github.com: fix path to css file
23:49 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/b752ef761e
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23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: 2a04069 | Whiteknight++ | _layouts/site.html:
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: fix header image
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/2a0406920a
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: 07cdef2 | Whiteknight++ | _layouts/site.html:
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: Break out a sidebar with some stubbed-out sections
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/07cdef2642
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: fa9d330 | Whiteknight++ | stylesheets/parrot.css:
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: +CSS fixes
23:57 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/fa9d330dfb
23:59 dalek parrot.github.com: 5227fb0 | Whiteknight++ | stylesheets/parrot.css:
23:59 dalek parrot.github.com: hack-fix to make the sidebar not overflow the outer wrapper div
23:59 dalek parrot.github.com: review: https://github.com/parrot/parro​t.github.com/commit/5227fb097e

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