Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-07-30

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Time Nick Message
00:15 dalek plumage: 15da79f | soh_cah_toa++ | / (3 files):
00:15 dalek plumage: Added support for -h and --help switch. Removed from TODO list.
00:15 dalek plumage: review: https://github.com/parrot/​plumage/commit/15da79fab8
00:15 dalek plumage: ef820e3 | soh_cah_toa++ | / (2 files):
00:15 dalek plumage: Added support for short arguments for --config-file (-c) and --ignore-fail (-i).
00:15 dalek plumage: review: https://github.com/parrot/​plumage/commit/ef820e31fa
00:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 965540e | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
00:24 dalek rakudo/nom: Run recurse.t after fixes by pmichaud++.
00:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/965540e451
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01:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 0657b85 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
01:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix bug in PAST::Block arity calculation; fix bug in hash vs block detection.
01:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0657b853a9
01:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 09d8b34 | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
01:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Run S06-other/anon-hashes-vs-blocks.t.
01:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/09d8b34106
01:04 Felipe aloha
01:10 dukeleto Felipe: ahoy, matey
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01:41 cotto ~~
01:55 jay ~~ We're pretty much done our talk on NQR for the Joint Statistical Meetings (including a "Why Parrot and What is it?" section) -- anyone want to browse and offer feedback?
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02:09 cotto jay, sure!  Send it to parrot-dev.
02:11 jay www.stat.yale.edu/~jay/JSM2011Mike.pdf      I'd rather not post it prior to the talk Monday, if you don't mind.  !-)
02:12 cotto wfm
02:12 dalek NQR: c06bc38 | (Jay Emerson)++ | / (3 files):
02:12 dalek NQR: Refreshed comments
02:12 dalek NQR: review: https://github.com/NQRCore/NQR/commit/c06bc389de
02:13 jay In fact, I'll probably just add it to the NQR repository on Monday right before the talk.
02:19 cotto whiteknight, ping
02:25 jay back in a bit
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02:40 whiteknight pong
02:42 cotto whiteknight, I'm thinking about whether it's a good idea to add direct chunk tag support to M0 as a way to support PIR sub tags.  Thoughts?
02:43 whiteknight what would be the alternate?
02:44 cotto probably something more hacky like using chunk names
02:44 cotto i.e. "main" is the first one executed when a M0 bytecode file is run as a program
02:44 whiteknight well, if those are the options....
02:45 cotto other options may exist
02:46 cotto how's the house buying process going?
02:51 whiteknight bleh
02:51 whiteknight the appraisers forget to get the appraisal approved, so the mortgage was never approved and we don't have a house
02:52 cotto sounds professional
02:55 whiteknight yeah, exemplary
02:56 whiteknight heh, I just hit an assertion failure
02:56 whiteknight I suspect, but am not certain yet, that Parrot doesn't like it if I tag a coroutine with :load and return values from it
03:01 * whiteknight has to go pack and then sleep
03:01 whiteknight goodnight
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03:10 jay Not sure who is around, and not sure if this is easy, but... in my Action.pm file, I'm working on the method:
03:10 jay method term:sym<primary>($/) {
03:11 jay Now I'd like to detect whether primary is Integer or Float... any hints?
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03:23 dalek NQR: f89c2eb | (Jay Emerson)++ | / (3 files):
03:23 dalek NQR: Incremental progress on get []
03:23 dalek NQR: review: https://github.com/NQRCore/NQR/commit/f89c2eb9e7
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04:52 dalek rakudo/nom: 39931fd | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
04:52 dalek rakudo/nom: track spectest failure modes.
04:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/39931fdfe6
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07:29 moritz where is parrot's usage message (which include a short summary of CLI options) generated?
07:32 moritz nm
07:33 eternaleye_ is now known as eternaleye
07:33 dalek parrot: fb78c2e | moritz++ | docs/running.pod:
07:33 dalek parrot: [docs] document -L $path
07:33 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/fb78c2ea27
07:34 dalek parrot: fcf3adf | moritz++ | frontend/parrot/main.c:
07:34 dalek parrot: add -L to usage message
07:34 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/fcf3adf6e5
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08:54 dalek TT #2167 created by allison++: Storable format breaks pmc2c when Perl is upgraded
08:54 dalek TT #2167: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2167
08:55 dalek rakudo/nom: 8f3f2cb | moritz++ | src/core/terms.pm:
08:55 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge pull request #31 from kboga/special-vars
08:55 dalek rakudo/nom:
08:55 dalek rakudo/nom: $*PROGRAM_NAME
08:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8f3f2cb921
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09:13 Eclesia hi
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13:06 soh_cah_toa what time is pds today? utc, that is
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13:17 soh_cah_toa kid51: what time is pds?
13:17 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 3.6.0 "Pájaros del Caribe" released | http://parrot.org | Parrot Developer Summit Sat July 30 2100 UTC in #parrotsketch | Log: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | #parrotsketch meeting Tuesday 19:30 UTC
13:18 kid51 5:00 pm US EDT
13:18 soh_cah_toa there it is :)
13:18 soh_cah_toa ok
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13:48 dukeleto ~~
13:51 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 3.6.0 "Pájaros del Caribe" released | http://parrot.org | Parrot Developer Summit Sat July 30 21:00 UTC in #parrotsketch | Log: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | #parrotsketch meeting Tuesday 19:30 UTC
13:58 dukeleto imcc--
13:59 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: indeed
13:59 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: just read your blog post
13:59 soh_cah_toa oh ok
14:00 soh_cah_toa yeah, i don't want to come to any conclusions but i think what i'm trying to do may just be impossible with imcc
14:01 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: did you mean to say "when i merged master into soh-cah-toa/hbdb" ?
14:01 soh_cah_toa eh, i've never been sure which direction merges work
14:02 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: whiteknight++ has been doing lots of work lately to make imcc-- less horrific, but I understand that you are still blocked by many of its "features"
14:02 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: how so?
14:02 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: did you put your code in master? Or did you put masters code into your branch?
14:03 soh_cah_toa it doesn't generate any useful or accurate information that i can use to identify things in the target program
14:03 soh_cah_toa uh, i don't know. i wasn't the one who merged
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14:03 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: there is a big difference between merged master into a topic branch (keeping it up to date) and merging a topic branch into master (usually when you are done with the topic branch)
14:04 dukeleto 2a8794f Merge branch 'master' into soh-cah-toa/hbdb Christoph Otto  4 weeks ago Mon Jul 4 10:46:17 2011
14:05 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: so everything went cattywompus when that merge happened? Why was it done?
14:05 soh_cah_toa i dunno. keep things in sync i guess
14:06 dukeleto grumble grumble
14:06 soh_cah_toa a debugger can only be as good as the compiler that generated the code it is debugging as it relies heavily on the information generated by the compiler
14:06 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: for your option parsing stuff, you could use --
14:07 soh_cah_toa what do you mean?
14:07 soh_cah_toa hbdb --foo hello.pir -- --bar --baz ?
14:08 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: or :, which are used to say, this is a boundary, stop parsing args there. And then something else starts parsing args from there
14:08 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: yes, something like that
14:08 soh_cah_toa hmm...
14:08 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: -- is more common than :
14:09 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: just a thought, ask people on parrot-dev what makes sense to them, since they are your userbase
14:09 soh_cah_toa i did. sent an email last night
14:09 soh_cah_toa then i'll need a way to figure out where parsing stopped so i can start at the next position
14:09 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: to approach this from another direction: what is accomplishable by the end of GSoC? What is *not* blocked?
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14:09 soh_cah_toa that's a hard question
14:09 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: that is as simple as remembering one index into the args string
14:10 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: i just want to say that I know you are trying hard, and that things out of your control are hampering your progess.
14:11 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: thank you. that actually makes me feel a little better :)
14:11 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: keep fighting the good fight. We know imcc-- is totally and completely horrific, and your woes only make that more apparent to us
14:12 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: slowly but surely, we are kicking it out of the nest. But our whole nest used it as a foundation, so it has been tricky business
14:12 soh_cah_toa yes
14:13 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: your final GSoC pass/fail will be based on how hard you tried and how well you interacted with the parrot community, so don't worry about failing because imcc-- is messing up your timeline
14:13 soh_cah_toa phew
14:13 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: just do the most and best you can with the time you have left
14:13 soh_cah_toa that doesn't mean i'll give up though :)
14:13 soh_cah_toa obviously
14:14 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: and your recent email to parrot-dev is a good example of reaching out for help
14:14 soh_cah_toa well, i also plan on talking to whiteknight about how i can use the packfile pmc's
14:14 soh_cah_toa i just hope they aren't populated w/ information generated by imcc
14:15 soh_cah_toa b/c apparently there is a line to opcode mapping in one of the packfile segments. i just don't know how accurate it is
14:15 * soh_cah_toa is reading the packfile api right now
14:16 dukeleto soh_cah_toa++
14:16 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: also, you should send another email to parrot-dev which gives a backtrace of the coredumps that you are getting
14:16 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: do you know how to get a backtrace from gdb?
14:17 soh_cah_toa yup
14:17 soh_cah_toa good idea. i'll do that right after breakfast which i must go eat now
14:17 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: ok, send a backtrace (from an unoptimized parrot with debug flags, so we can see function names)
14:17 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: ok
14:17 Eclesia question : I have some  ".annotate 'key', value" in a pir file. how can I access those annotation values ?
14:18 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: thanks a bunch for the help. be back in a bit
14:19 moritz Eclesia: through the interpreter object
14:19 Eclesia moritz: I don't have an interpreter, I have the class pmc
14:19 moritz nqp: say(pir::getinterp__P(){"annotations"}{"file"})
14:19 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Cannot get annotations at depth 0; use annotations op instead.␤current instr.: '_block1000' pc 26 ((file unknown):35) (/tmp/HEc2C4CX_v:1)␤»
14:20 moritz nqp: say(pir::annotations__P{"file"})
14:20 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«/tmp/O5_7CwgitQ␤»
14:21 Eclesia ?
14:22 moritz $P0 = annotations
14:23 moritz $S1 = $P0['key']
14:23 moritz would be the PIR version
14:23 moritz and if you want the caller's annotation
14:24 moritz $P1 = getinterp
14:24 moritz $P0 = $P1["annotations", 1]
14:24 moritz $S1 = $P0['key']
14:24 moritz Eclesia: makes sense?
14:25 NotFound winxed -e 'var ann; ${ annotations ann }; for (string key in ann) say(key, ": ", ann[key]);'
14:25 Eclesia moritz: I'm still trying to understand ^^
14:26 NotFound That gives you tne annotation related to the current execution point.
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: efb679b | jonathan++ | src/core/Any.pm:
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix infix:<max> (flussence++).
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/efb679bd4f
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: 6846753 | jonathan++ | / (3 files):
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Sketch out a StaticLexPad class.
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/68467530c5
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: 5acf3d6 | jonathan++ | src/pmc/perl6lexinfo.pmc:
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Add a way to associate a Perl 6 StaticLexPad object with the Perl6LexInfo (eventually, a chunk of Perl6LexInfo will go away, as we move the data it holds into StaticLexPad).
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5acf3d6e44
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: 33755a6 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Sketch out static lexpad creation and block association; untested as of yet.
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/33755a6256
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: cf45eac | jonathan++ | src/core/Any.pm:
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Turns out Any.max was missing; add it.
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cf45eac603
14:27 Eclesia NotFound: not exactly what I'm looking for. I have a class or a function in a var. and would like to have the annotations linked to it
14:30 NotFound Eclesia: I think there is no way to do that directly right now. You'll need the packfile pmc that contais the subs you are interested in.
14:31 moritz as far as I can tell, parrot "annotations" are linked to code, not to objects
14:31 moritz so you might need to add the annotations to the objects/classes when they are compiled
14:32 Eclesia moritz: you mean to have an explicit getAnnotations function on the class ?
14:33 NotFound Eclesia: classes don't have annotations. Its methods can have.
14:34 moritz Eclesia: yes, something like that...
14:34 moritz Eclesia: what's the overall goal you want to achieve?
14:35 Eclesia moritz: constraints and contract support.
14:35 moritz then annotations seem like a bad approach
14:36 moritz they are meant for things like context information for backtraces
14:36 Eclesia moritz: what other solution are available ?
14:37 Eclesia I can generate some 'hidden' functions returning Hashs but that doesn't seem nice either
14:38 moritz Eclesia: for example for a precondtion that is attached to a method, you need to emit check when compiling that method
14:38 Eclesia and will requiere memory
14:38 moritz s/check/the check/
14:40 Eclesia moritz: that will at least solve the problem for functions. you have an example on how to use those 'checks' ?
14:41 moritz Eclesia: do you have an example of a constraint or contract you wan to implement?
14:42 Eclesia don't know, let's say a basic one like 'Not Null'
14:42 moritz so your method compiles to something like
14:42 moritz .sub 'methodname' :method
14:43 moritz .param pmc p
14:43 moritz ...
14:43 moritz .end
14:43 Eclesia yes
14:43 moritz you have to change that to add a "not null" check after the .param pmc p
14:43 moritz something like
14:43 moritz if null p goto check_failed
14:43 moritz ...
14:43 moritz .return
14:44 moritz check_failed:
14:44 moritz die "check 'not null' for paramter p failed"
14:44 moritz .end
14:44 Eclesia but that will work at execution time
14:44 moritz is that not what you want?
14:45 Eclesia I want it at compilation :)
14:45 jnthn__ Then you'll have to handle it in your compiler :)
14:45 moritz then you need to do a compile time analysis in the compiler
14:45 jnthn__ Analysis for such things is pretty language specific.
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14:46 Eclesia jnthn__, moritz : yes I'll handle it in my compiler but. I use classes which are already compiled as PBC. and I need to have the function constraints
14:47 jnthn__ Eclesia: Maybe emit a :load :init which attaches them as properties to the function.
14:47 Eclesia properties ?
14:48 NotFound Eclesia: you mean loading the pbc at compiling time?
14:49 Eclesia NotFound: yes, I load some pbc at compilation time to ensure functions which are called really exist
14:50 Eclesia jnthn__: properties is some kind of Hash I can acces after it has been compiled ?
14:50 NotFound Eclesia: then you can examine the pbc content using the functionality recently added by whiteknight, but you must add your own way to strore the information you want to use.
14:51 jnthn__ Eclesia: Well, with what I'm suggesting your "serialization" of them would just be to add them when the bytecode is loaded.
14:52 Eclesia jnthn__: that seems fine. do you have an example of how to add properties ?
14:53 moritz Eclesia: are these contracts more declarative (like types), or can they be arbitrary runnable code?
14:53 Eclesia (properties on a function)
14:53 Eclesia moritz: they can be arbitrary, developer can write it's own contracts/constraints
14:54 Eclesia (I also intend to have checkpoints but that's another work)
14:54 moritz Eclesia: how can you validate arbitrary constraints at compile time?
14:54 jnthn__ Eclesia: Not to hand but see setprop/getprop ops, and you can do .const 'Sub' $P0 = 'subid' to get hold of a sub object to put the constraints on it.
14:55 Eclesia moritz: when I compile code, I express it as paradygm first, which is completly unrelated to pir. the constraints are evaluated against those paradygm objects
14:57 Eclesia NotFound: those setprop/getprop are available in winxed ? or I must use ${ setprop .... } ?
14:58 NotFound Eclesia: no specific way, you must use the pirop.
14:58 Eclesia ok
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15:17 dalek parrot: 8cb5dcb | dukeleto++ | / (2 files):
15:17 dalek parrot: Decruftify some PASM examples and tests
15:17 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/8cb5dcbcb7
15:35 dalek lua: d73d085 | fperrad++ | lua/PASTGrammar.tg:
15:35 dalek lua: fix: put 'self' in a inner scope
15:35 dalek lua: (reported by Aaron Faanes)
15:35 dalek lua: review: https://github.com/fperrad/lua/commit/d73d085860
15:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 36d0329 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
15:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Break import into a two-pass process to hopefully pre-empt a circularity problem.
15:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/36d0329b8a
15:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 1e69c1e | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
15:38 dalek rakudo/nom: A little more circularity sawing in prep for the static lexpads refactor.
15:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1e69c1e14b
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15:57 shockwave Hello
15:58 shockwave I just downloaded Parrot 3.6, and I'm trying to build it on Windows 7, 64 bits, using Visual Studio 2010. It fails building.
15:59 shockwave it fails with this line: NMAKE : fatal error U1077: '.\miniparrot.exe' : return code '0xc0000005'
16:00 Eclesia you can try another compiler
16:01 shockwave Eclesia. Unfortunately, no.
16:02 shockwave Is this a known problem?
16:02 * Eclesia is not on windows but already heard about compilation problems using visual studio.
16:03 shockwave I'm also trying to build on Linux (Fedora 15): It fails with this:
16:03 shockwave Can't locate Test/Harness.pm in @INC (@INC contains: lib config /usr/local/lib64/perl5 /usr/local/share/perl5 /usr/lib64/perl5/vendor_perl /usr/share/perl5/vendor_perl /usr/lib64/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 .) at lib/Parrot/Configure/Options/Test.pm line 6.
16:03 shockwave BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at lib/Parrot/Configure/Options/Test.pm line 6.
16:03 shockwave Compilation failed in require at Configure.pl line 13.
16:03 shockwave BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at Configure.pl line 13.
16:03 shockwave I think I'm missing some perl package
16:04 moritz shockwave: yes, it's called perl-devel or so
16:04 moritz fedora doesn't seem to install all core perl moduls by default
16:04 shockwave I'll try install that perl-devel
16:06 shockwave Thanks, moritz. It's currently building.
16:06 shockwave 3.6 is a supported release, right? So is this Visual Studio planned to be fixed?
16:08 shockwave It built properly on Linux (Fedora 15, GCC 4.6)
16:09 dalek parrot: 238c989 | fperrad++ | runtime/parrot/library/distutils.pir:
16:09 dalek parrot: [distutils] update links
16:09 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/238c989fcd
16:09 jnthn__ Curious - I build Parrot with Visual Studio 2010 compiler quite often. I wonder what we have different.
16:09 jnthn__ shockwave: ooc, what Perl are you using on the Windows box?
16:09 shockwave ActiveState
16:09 jnthn__ Same as me then.
16:09 shockwave I just got it like 15 minutes ago, so the latest.
16:10 shockwave jnthn__, are you compiling 32 or 64 bits?
16:10 jnthn__ 32
16:10 shockwave I'm 64
16:10 jnthn__ ah
16:10 jnthn__ Wonder if that's something to do with it.
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16:10 shockwave I do get like a quadrillion warnings as it compiles.
16:12 shockwave My Linux box is also 64bits, and like I just mentioned, it just compiled fine.
16:15 shockwave It looks like it's first failing with a line like this:
16:15 shockwave C:\Programs\Perl64\bin\perl.exe tools/build/parrot_config_c.pl >  src/parrot_config.c
16:15 shockwave 'runtime/parrot/include/config.fpmc' is truncated. Remove it and rerun make
16:15 shockwave NMAKE : fatal error U1077: 'C:\Programs\Perl64\bin\perl.exe' : return code '0xff'
16:15 shockwave Stop.
16:15 shockwave Then, I remove it, and I get this:
16:15 NotFound shockwave: Have you removed it?
16:16 shockwave C:\Programs\Perl64\bin\perl.exe tools/build/gen_version.pl >runtime/parrot/include/parrot_version.pir
16:16 shockwave .\miniparrot.exe -Iruntime/parrot/include config_lib.pir > runtime/parrot/include/config.fpmc
16:16 shockwave NMAKE : fatal error U1077: '.\miniparrot.exe' : return code '0xc0000005'
16:16 shockwave Stop.
16:19 NotFound shockwave: Take a look at config_lib.pir to verify if things are more or less correct at that point,
16:19 NotFound And at runtime/parrot/include/parrot_version.pir
16:19 shockwave will do
16:20 Eclesia NotFound: I can only have one constructor on a winxed class ?
16:20 NotFound Eclesia: yes
16:22 shockwave config_lib.pir seems fine
16:22 shockwave but parrot version only has these lines:
16:22 shockwave # generated by tools/build/gen_version.pl
16:22 shockwave .macro_const PARROT_SHA1 "0"
16:22 shockwave .macro_const PARROT_GIT_DESCRIBE "0"
16:22 shockwave That is, 3 lines.
16:22 shockwave Btw, this the the 3.6 tar.gz on Parrot.org
16:23 NotFound Looks correct, if you are not building from a git tree
16:35 shockwave so...
16:35 shockwave i'm SOL?
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: 7e9102f | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: Add new static lexpad handling in SymbolTable alongside the old, to start migrating from one to the other.
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7e9102f77b
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: 8489bbb | jonathan++ | src/pmc/perl6lexpad.pmc:
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: Start to prepare Perl6LexPad for using the new StaticLexPad for static lexical values and configuration, not Perl6LexInfo.
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8489bbb5fc
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: 4189ea6 | jonathan++ | src/pmc/perl6lex (2 files):
16:36 dalek rakudo/nom: Switch Perl6LexPad over to new static lexicals model. Seems to work.
16:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4189ea66e9
16:37 dalek rakudo/nom: df5a10b | jonathan++ | src/pmc/perl6lexinfo.pmc:
16:37 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove some now-unused properties in Perl6LexInfo.
16:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/df5a10b20c
16:37 jnthn__ shockwave: I suspect the masses of warnings may be your best clue, especially if they're about pointer or int sizes.
16:48 NotFound Help me, Obi Warning Kenobi...
16:51 shockwave I'm going to recompile. If VC creates a buildlog, I'll post it somewhere. All those warnings are scary.
17:01 kid51 soh_cah_toa ping
17:01 shockwave ah, Perl Configure.pl says that I'll see tons of warnings. So I guess it's expected.
17:03 soh_cah_toa left #parrot
17:04 dalek rakudo/nom: d2676e8 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
17:04 dalek rakudo/nom: Stop generating a bunch of code that we no longer need after the static lexpad refactor.
17:04 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d2676e8704
17:05 dalek rakudo/nom: 4655200 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
17:05 dalek rakudo/nom: Now that we build the static lexpad up as we compile, we don't need to do re-install stuff in it at fixup time. This should be a modest win for run-immediately mode (not least because it results in a smaller PAST tree and less to do).
17:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4655200e4d
17:08 shockwave Does anyone know if 64bit support is expected to be added on Parrot for Windows, anytime soon?
17:09 kid51 shockwave: We have an online Parrot Dev Summit starting in about 4 hours.
17:09 jnthn__ shockwave: That warning is almost always bad news, if you mean the one I think you do.
17:09 kid51 I posted on parrot-dev a proposal for a roadmap goal for sharpening parrot support on windows
17:10 NotFound I think it's not something that can be "added". It should be supported.
17:10 shockwave kid51: I'd like to see in and watch, if it's possible.
17:10 jnthn__ shockwave: My guess is that somehow the configuration it's lifting from ActivePerl is acting like some half-64 half-32 config.
17:10 kid51 Perhaps you could add something to that thread about what your needs are.
17:11 NotFound A platform that lacks any developer using it and fixing problems is not supported, no matter what we can declare.
17:11 kid51 shockwave: Our experience earlier this month suggests that "Parrot on Windows" can mean so many different things that there's no way we can support all of them.
17:12 kid51 So we have to sharpen our focus to ask, "What do our current (and likely) developers and users need?"
17:12 kid51 We also know that there are people (jnthn__ included) who do successfully work on *particular* Windows configurations.
17:12 Eclesia on the other side, a VM which works only on linux/mac is a bit ...
17:13 kid51 We need to find out, at least at a preliminary level, why some configs work and other don't.
17:13 shockwave kid51: I'd love to give feedback. At the end of the day, I just want my stuff to work.
17:14 kid51 Well, if this roadmap goal is accepted and a team forms to implement it (and that's key), then the first stage of work is research, namely, interviewing people like you who are actively trying to build Parrot on Windows.
17:15 NotFound What means "actively"?
17:15 shockwave I'm currently running parrot 3.1.0 for my compiler. That compiled fine (when I did, a few months ago).
17:15 shockwave kid51: Anyhow, I understand what you mean.
17:16 dalek rakudo/nom: 28424c4 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
17:16 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix up usage of variables in BEGIN; should deal with the issue tadzik++ ran into recently.
17:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/28424c4891
17:16 kid51 shockwave: If you wish, you can even be a part of that team :-)
17:16 shockwave kid51: If it's possible for me to seat in, I'll do my best to join (though, my Girlfriend may not be too happy that I'm ' spending my saturday at that damn computer again')
17:17 kid51 shockwave: At least, read what's already been posted on parrot-dev.  Also, I touched on this last Saturday at FOSSCON: http://thenceforward.net/parrot/fosscon201107/
17:18 shockwave kid51: I would like to, but .... what a fulltime job, family commitment, I really only have a bit of time to work on my own stuff; namely a compiler for a new programming language I'm creating. It already feels like I don't have nearly enough time. But, I can, for sure, definetly give feedback on my Parrot usage.
17:18 kid51 Eclesia:  Re "only on linux/mac" see last part of that link as well
17:19 kid51 At the very least, should this goal be adopted, a team member will interview you as to your concerns in this area.
17:19 shockwave Sounds good
17:21 NotFound kid51: I helped with part ot the talk? I wasn't aware of doing that.
17:22 shockwave What is the official time of the online PDS
17:22 kid51 NotFound: I quoted you.
17:22 kid51 shockwave: See topic
17:23 shockwave k
17:23 kid51 msg soh_cah_toa Have you tried seeing what would have happened in your branch if you had *not* merged master into it earlier this month?
17:23 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
17:24 NotFound Ah, yes.
17:24 kid51 The quotes from parrot-dev got good laughs.  They liked the "... for Windows users" line :-)
17:25 kid51 soh_cah_toa was present in the room.  We got him to stand up and act out his lines!
17:25 shockwave That kind of attitude makes me nervous.
17:26 NotFound I was thinking that the statement was about the previous part, not the following.
17:27 shockwave I mean, the general feeling about supporting Windows in Parrot. And I mean it, not from the standpoint of resources (which I would definetly understand), but from the idiological stance.
17:29 NotFound shockwave: I think my point in particular is clean and private, not supporting any ideology.
17:31 kid51 The point I was making is that at a certain point in the development on an OS project, the project faces a challenge basing the interests and needs of its developers with those of it users.
17:31 shockwave NotFound: I read bits and pieces of the document. I didn't catch your name in there (if it was in there), so I wasn't thinking of you when I said it.
17:33 kid51 shockwave: Not everyone was quoted by name.  I wanted to give the audience a flavor for what a cross-section of Parrot people think
17:33 kid51 bbial
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17:34 NotFound shockwave: anyway, what are the points that make you nervous?
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17:34 shockwave_ NotFound, Speaking only as a sole individual,
17:35 shockwave_ I'm currently working on a personal project, which hopefully, someday, I could make money from. more...
17:36 shockwave_ As a developer, I really like Linux; it has lots of tools to help me in the development process, and it's just plain fun. But, as a human being who needs to pay his bills, I gotta make something which people are willing to buy. more...
17:37 Eclesia even the jvm does have a great support on windows ... especialy long javac compil command lines. At work (we use java) and for training session we simply removed the maven part when we know users are on windows. So I don't blame parrot if the windows support is not good, even sun/oracle didn't completely suceeded to make it work properly in all cases
17:37 shockwave_ I would really, really like to make a videogame. Currently, I working on my spare time to create a language, which I can embed into a 3D Game engine, with which I can create it.
17:37 shockwave left #parrot
17:38 shockwave_ I can't just forget Windows, because if I do, then I don't have a chance.
17:39 shockwave_ So, this forces me to make cold descions. Like, I *must* be able to support Windows, for me to have a chance to making a product (videogame) which someone could buy.
17:39 NotFound "I think that it would be good to have more Parrot developers on Windows.  It would be good ... for Windows users. I'm not going to pay Windows licenses for the privilege of helping them."
17:39 NotFound This the quote from me in the presentation.
17:41 NotFound And is appropiate. I can understand that people want that parrot works with its environment, I can even sympathize with the idea. However, I'm not going to spend money or a lot of effort in that goal.
17:42 shockwave_ Well, you know, I'm not saying people are evil for not wanting to support Windows. All I'm saying is that when someone is in my position, when the want to make a certain product for which Windows is the bigest market, then choices narrow down.
17:43 shockwave_ So I'm comming from a position of need. I undestand that specific developer may feel one way or another, but the Parrot project as a whole can either work for someone/corporation or it does not.
17:44 shockwave_ And if it doesn't, then that person/group/corporation doesn't really have much choice, do they?
17:44 shockwave_ I don't want to sound like I'm giving some sort of ultimatum. I'm just speaking about the point of view of a user.
17:46 NotFound shockwave_: I speak from the point of view of a developer: we don't have developers working on fixing the problems in some build environments, then any promises about such environment are meaningless.
17:48 NotFound I don't have any Windows Vista or 7 machine, so saying I'll do my best for them and saying I'm doing nothing is the same.
17:50 Eclesia NotFound: do you have names of companies contributing on parrot ?
17:50 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 23 commits to rakudo/podparser by tadzik
17:51 shockwave_ NotFound: I feel you. I understand that you, personally, can't do. But a person/group/company that is looking to use Parrot is not concerned with individuals. They ask simple questions "Is it supported in Windows?". If the answer is anything but "definetly", then they'll just say 'next'.
17:51 NotFound Eclesia: http://www.parrot.org/sponsors but is probably outdated.
17:51 cotto ~~
17:52 Eclesia mozilla ? o_o
17:52 NotFound shockwave_: I understand, but I prefer that to saying lies/PR speech.
17:53 NotFound Eclesia: Oh, you mean contributing code?
17:53 Eclesia NotFound: yes
17:54 NotFound As far as I know, none.
17:54 Eclesia often, fair size project have at least one company behind.
17:54 Eclesia ho . so parrot developers are only benevols, that's nice
17:58 NotFound Eclesia: maybe we are all working in secrecy for a secret organization aiming to conquer thw world, who knows? ;)
17:59 Eclesia NotFound: like all others, microsoft,apple,oracle ... :D
18:00 NotFound No, we are a lot better keeping it in secret :D
18:05 Eclesia ... parrot conquer the world ... me trying to replace java ... are we all dreaming ?
18:09 NotFound Eclesia: when I look at people mentioning winxed in his presentations at famous conferences, I think I'm dreaming.
18:10 sorear who did that?
18:10 Eclesia NotFound: lol. you are nearly as famous as bill gates !  :D
18:12 NotFound sorear: I've seen it mentioned in talks of dukeleto and the one kid51 was just mentioned a few lines up.
18:13 Eclesia NotFound: what is your real name ?
18:14 NotFound Eclesia: I'm better! One guy said that my Z80 assembler is better than Microsoft one... More than twelve years later, but still an achievement X-)
18:14 NotFound Eclesia: Julián Albo
18:15 Eclesia NotFound: spanish ?
18:15 NotFound Eclesia: yes
18:16 NotFound From Spain.
18:17 Eclesia damn, you have more result then me on google ^^
18:19 NotFound Always amazes me how easy is to get good results in google when you do bizarre things. You get mentions in sites minoritaries but with of lots of links and good ranks.
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18:20 Felipe hi guys
18:20 Eclesia NotFound: but we don't see exactly what you are doing, plenty of different stuffs
18:21 NotFound Eclesia: that is a good description of my doings.
18:21 NotFound "plenty of different stuffs"
18:22 Eclesia NotFound: haha, search my and you'll have only one subject on the first pages ^^ : johann sorel
18:22 NotFound Looks like you are GIS oriented.
18:23 Eclesia I was not hard to find :)
18:24 Eclesia it*
18:26 NotFound "French developer Johann Sorel"
18:26 NotFound In the first result.
18:28 Eclesia NotFound: depends on the country you are, sometimes it's the netbeans interview or the developpez.com page which is first
18:30 Eclesia I hope one day I'll be able to make GIS on parrot :p
18:30 NotFound NetBeans Interview - Johann Sorel, Developer of AlterSIG
18:30 Eclesia (but there's plenty of things missing :(  )
18:31 NotFound But I use google.com and english settings, better than google.es
18:44 kid51 joined #parrot
18:53 kid51 s/challenge basing/challenge balancing/ in my post about an hour-and-a-quarter ago
18:54 NotFound At least in the first pages, most hits for "Julián Albo" are mine.
18:55 NotFound And yes, there is a bizarre mix of subjects.
18:55 NotFound Even a sci-fi short history.
18:56 NotFound Well, in sci-fi site, but the history is more fantasy than sci.
19:02 Eclesia NotFound: still on google ? go work on winxed you slacker  :D
19:02 NotFound I'm in bad mood to work today.
19:03 cotto kid51, privmsg ping
19:04 Eclesia NotFound: (18:48:23) NotFound: Help me, Obi Warning Kenobi... <-- the bad mood started at this time I guess
19:04 NotFound And I got distracted from parrot by doing a "hello world" on android.
19:05 nopaste "kid51" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Proposed agenda for PDS starting at 2100 UTC" (27 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/66042
19:10 moritz PDS?
19:10 moritz useless aloha
19:11 moritz in 1h 49min?
19:16 sorear aloha, PDF?
19:16 aloha sorear: Search me, bub.
19:16 sorear aloha, PDS?
19:16 aloha sorear: PDS is Saturday July 30 at 2100 UTC
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19:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 7a3a394 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
19:38 dalek rakudo/nom: more passing test files, jnthn++
19:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7a3a394d4c
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20:55 shockwave Where does PDS take place. In this channel?
20:55 kid51 PDS in 5 in #parrotsketch
20:56 shockwave thanks
21:03 dalek rakudo/nom: 90f996e | moritz++ | / (2 files):
21:03 dalek rakudo/nom: move most of the build instructions into a separate INSTALL file
21:03 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/90f996e230
21:07 benabik joined #parrot
21:07 kid51 PDS in #parrotsketch now
21:08 benabik Arg! Laptop can't find IRC server... On from phone while I try to fix.
21:10 cotto benabik, how does that work?  It's the same server as #parrot.
21:11 benabik I'm at a relative's... My phone's 3G can fun the server, but having connection issues with laptop.
21:11 benabik *find
21:11 luben joined #parrot
21:11 cotto gotcha
21:12 moritz benabik: you can try 217.168.150.167 or 209.221.142.115 directly, if it's a DNS problem
21:13 benabik moritz: Thanks
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21:14 benabik_ Ahh.  Full keyboard.  Now I can talk if need be.  :-)
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21:14 benabik_ is now known as benabik
21:14 * benabik really needs to set up his new server with the IRC bouncer et al.
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21:41 dalek parrot: 4b4315e | fperrad++ | runtime/parrot/library/ (2 files):
21:41 dalek parrot: [distutils] gzip & install manpages
21:41 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/4b4315e834
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21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: 0aacf70 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Refactor BEGIN handling now that we have improved static lexpads. Note, this lets you write stuff that won't yet work out well with pre-compilation - beware. :-)
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0aacf70dd5
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: fd68c86 | jonathan++ | INSTALL (2 files):
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Rename INSTALL to INSTALLME (better names welcome) since on case-insensitive OS it conflicts with install directory made by --gen-parrot.
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fd68c86b4f
21:52 dalek plumage: 3a79f94 | fperrad++ | / (4 files):
21:52 dalek plumage: commit the ungziped manpage (now, distutils handles it)
21:52 dalek plumage: review: https://github.com/parrot/​plumage/commit/3a79f94df7
21:52 dalek plumage: 58496b5 | fperrad++ | man/man1/plumage.1:
21:52 dalek plumage: fix the start year of copyright
21:52 dalek plumage: review: https://github.com/parrot/​plumage/commit/58496b5c10
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21:57 pmichaud shockwave: ping
21:58 shockwave pmichaud. Hello
21:58 pmichaud "officially supported on Windows"  is too general a statement.  Which Windows?
21:58 dalek parrot: 775f587 | fperrad++ | runtime/parrot/library/distutils.pir:
21:58 dalek parrot: [distutils] add item man_pod
21:58 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/775f587abb
21:58 shockwave Windows 7, 64 bits
21:58 pmichaud note that we also have to include a compiler and Perl in that list, too.
21:58 shockwave Does 3.6 compile at all, on any Windows?
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21:59 pmichaud Yes, it does.
21:59 pmichaud I know for a fact that jnthn++ is compiling and using 3.6.0 under Windows.
21:59 jnthn__ I mentioned so earlier, even :)
21:59 jnthn__ It seemed like a 64-bit issue
21:59 * jnthn__ is on 32
22:00 pmichaud I suspect it is a 64-bit and 5.12 issue (more)
22:00 jnthn__ Entirely feasible.
22:00 jnthn__ It sounds like weird configuration.
22:00 shockwave So, is the resolution of this issue for me?
22:01 pmichaud shockwave: looking
22:01 jnthn__ shockwave: I don't have a 64-bit machine to hand to try and re-produce it on. Somebody else may. Or if you're willing to dig, that's also great.
22:01 jnthn__ shockwave: From the warning you described though, I think you're ending up with 32-bit integers and 64-bit pointers, or vice versa.
22:01 jnthn__ Which is very liable to explode.
22:02 pmichaud shockwave: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2167  might be relevant
22:02 pmichaud that ticket was for debian, but it also notes problems when using Perl 5.12 on a 64 bit system.
22:03 pmichaud (for Parrot)
22:03 shockwave I'll try 5.10
22:03 jnthn__ pmichaud: I'm not 100% convinced its the same issue, but it could be.
22:04 pmichaud jnthn__: you're correct, it might be an entirely different issue.  but I think (based on nclark++'s comments) that it's likely to be a problem
22:04 pmichaud I'm thinking that Parrot might need/want to issue a 3.6.1 with a fix.
22:06 * Eclesia going to bed +++
22:06 jnthn__ pmichaud: Oh, it's *a* problem for sure. :)
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22:07 shockwave Thanks for the help, all
22:07 shockwave bye
22:07 shockwave left #parrot
22:10 Tene jnthn__: I've got a 64-bit VM server that you're free to use if you'd like.
22:10 jnthn__ Tene: Windows or Linux?
22:11 Tene jnthn__: server is linux, but you can run whatever OS in a VM you'd like.
22:11 Tene I had a Windows VM running for a while as a game server.
22:12 jnthn__ Tene: Ah, OK. I'll probably have a 64-bit Windows machine locally soon anyway.
22:12 Tene 'k
22:13 Tene Just let me know.  I'm glad to spin up VMs or give access to do so to anyone who would find that useful.
22:26 Util FYI, Windows7 is the *best* platform for Parrot 3.6, having 100% tests pass. I would not think that the Perl version (either .* differences or ActiveState) would be an issue. That leaves compiler (MSVC vs GCC) and 32-vs-64 bits.
22:26 Util The 100% test coverage was on a 32-bit Win7, I believe.
22:27 pmichaud Util: did you see the trac ticket I mentioned above?
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22:28 pmichaud that implies a Perl 5.12 issue, at least.
22:28 cotto joined #parrot
22:28 pmichaud *a potential Perl 5.12 issue
22:29 dalek parrot: 566eb81 | fperrad++ | runtime/parrot/library/distutils.pir:
22:29 dalek parrot: [distutils] fix packages with manpages
22:29 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/566eb81c2b
22:29 Util pmichaud: I had not read the ticket, and I stand corrected. All of it is worth checking.
22:30 NotFound Maybe the problem is the default value from some configuration value picked from the perl used?
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23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 5c6ac4f | jonathan++ | src/ (3 files):
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Implement auto-threading in the $junc.meth case.
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5c6ac4fef1
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 7c8ab31 | jonathan++ | src/core/Cool.pm:
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: Liberalize sub form of split, leave type handling to methods.
23:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7c8ab31eb5
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23:33 dalek rakudo/nom: 886f677 | jonathan++ | src/core/Str (2 files):
23:33 dalek rakudo/nom: ne should behave just like !eq
23:33 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/886f677430
23:33 dalek rakudo/nom: 87ab44f | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
23:34 dalek rakudo/nom: We now pass all of S03-junctions/autothreading.t.
23:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/87ab44f4ac
23:34 nopaste "kid51" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Draft of roadmap goals for 3.9 as discussed at #parrotsketch" (13 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/66074
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23:51 dalek rakudo/nom: 018c561 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
23:51 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix sink prefix.
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/018c561086
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: 6f9747c | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: Another passing test file.
23:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6f9747c465
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