Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-09-10

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Time Nick Message
00:10 cotto ~~
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01:05 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
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01:36 soh_cah_toa whiteknight: are there still any tests failures on whiteknight/kill_threads and whiteknight/frontend_parrot2?
01:36 soh_cah_toa whiteknight: can't do it myself yet b/c i'm having problems w/ winxed trying to build anything (reinstalling for the second time now)
01:36 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: whiteknight/frontend_parrot2 already merged to master. I need to delete that branch from github
01:36 whiteknight whiteknight/kill_threads was passing all tests as far as I remember
01:36 soh_cah_toa oh ok, cool
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01:44 soh_cah_toa_ whiteknight: just to double check...you don't see 6model making it into this month's release, right?
01:44 whiteknight no
01:44 whiteknight barring a miracle
01:44 soh_cah_toa_ ok
01:49 soh_cah_toa_ whiteknight: on the subject, i just got a copy of "the art of the metaobject protocol" so i wanna figure some things out about 6model :)
01:49 soh_cah_toa_ right now, we don't use a mop for pmc's which is why it's kinda inappropriate to call pmc's objects, right?
01:49 whiteknight I need to get a copy of that book for myself
01:49 whiteknight soh_cah_toa_: we sort of use a sort of object model for them
01:50 soh_cah_toa_ hm, ok
01:50 whiteknight depends how you define "object"
01:50 soh_cah_toa_ so, being that it's called a "metaobject protocol" and not "metapmc protocol", doesn't this turn pmc's into fully-fledged objects?
01:52 soh_cah_toa_ i mean, i'm all for using 6model, but won't it make pmc's a little too high level?
02:00 soh_cah_toa_ unless maybe i'm misunderstanding 6model a bit :\
02:02 sorear pmcs are objects.
02:02 sorear pmcs are not Objects.
02:02 sorear core Parrot has two independant and mostly incompatible object models
02:02 sorear this is too many
02:03 soh_cah_toa_ ???
02:03 soh_cah_toa_ object vs Object?
02:03 sorear object is a technical term as discussed in TaotMOP
02:03 sorear Object is one of the parrot core pmcs
02:03 soh_cah_toa_ oh i see
02:03 sorear Parrot has two object models - the PMC model and the Class/Object model
02:03 soh_cah_toa_ ew
02:04 sorear every system that has objects has a "mop"
02:04 soh_cah_toa_ so 6model will replace both so that we only have one mop, right?
02:04 sorear when you see something like Moose, it's not adding a mop from nothing - it's providing a cleanly factored, object-oriented wrapper for the Perl 5 MOP
02:04 sorear exactly
02:05 soh_cah_toa_ right
02:05 soh_cah_toa_ ok cool
02:05 sorear sometimes people reserve the term "mop" for mops that are object-oriented
02:09 soh_cah_toa_ alright, i was always under the impression that even though you could get away w/ it, it was kinda "politically incorrect" to say that pmc's are objects
02:10 soh_cah_toa_ i guess just not in the "traditional" sense
02:10 sorear soh_cah_toa_: it's not politically incorrect, it's just confusing
02:10 soh_cah_toa_ yeah
02:10 sorear soh_cah_toa_: "pmcs are objects" is technically correct, but without context people will think you meant "pmcs are Objects", which is wrong
02:11 soh_cah_toa_ ok, that makes sense
02:14 whiteknight pmcs do have attributes, do have methods, do have metaobjects (PMCProxy), etc
02:14 whiteknight they're just very warty, very low-level types of objects
02:16 whiteknight and they're sort of backwards with respect to the metaobject
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: 611d6ad | Whiteknight++ | s (10 files):
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: Start moving the harness towards using an Stream for TAP input. Requires several small changes to FileSystem and Query libraries.
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/611d6adc80
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: ddf30e0 | Whiteknight++ | src/query/ (2 files):
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: Add in a project stage to project a single value into a sequence of values
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/ddf30e0036
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: 32c64ed | Whiteknight++ | src/ (8 files):
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: Rework the TestExecutor and the TapParser to take a stream and iterate over it for most parsing tasks. Various other cleanups and fixes. Remove some left-over debugging statements
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/32c64eda95
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: bccb694 | Whiteknight++ | src/ (6 files):
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: Several fixes to get inline compilation working again with streams
02:17 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/bccb694afe
02:20 soh_cah_toa_ whiteknight: you saw my message the other day? how should you specify which dde to read? by address? offset? what?
02:20 soh_cah_toa_ for podds, that is
02:20 whiteknight soh_cah_toa_: yeah, I'm not really sure. pc seems like what we have most readily available
02:21 soh_cah_toa_ actually, does bytecode even have the concept of addresses? i'm not sure
02:21 soh_cah_toa_ i don't think so
02:24 whiteknight it's relocatable, so the pc value is an offset from the start of the segment
02:25 sorear dde?
02:25 soh_cah_toa_ i thought so
02:25 soh_cah_toa_ data description entity
02:25 soh_cah_toa_ the new debug segment
02:29 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: fa265df | Whiteknight++ | src/harness/TestExecutor.winxed:
02:29 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: fix
02:29 dalek Rosella/tap_stream: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/fa265df6a6
02:33 dalek Rosella: 32c64ed | Whiteknight++ | src/ (8 files):
02:33 dalek Rosella: Rework the TestExecutor and the TapParser to take a stream and iterate over it for most parsing tasks. Various other cleanups and fixes. Remove some left-over debugging statements
02:33 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/32c64eda95
02:33 dalek Rosella: bccb694 | Whiteknight++ | src/ (6 files):
02:33 dalek Rosella: Several fixes to get inline compilation working again with streams
02:33 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/bccb694afe
02:33 dalek Rosella: fa265df | Whiteknight++ | src/harness/TestExecutor.winxed:
02:33 dalek Rosella: fix
02:33 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/fa265df6a6
02:33 dalek Rosella: d8dfe10 | Whiteknight++ | s (18 files):
02:33 dalek Rosella: Merge branch 'tap_stream'
02:33 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/d8dfe10de5
02:37 soh_cah_toa_ anybody ever seen "Cannot open output file runtime/parrot/languages/winxed/winxed.pbc" before while building?
02:37 soh_cah_toa_ i've reinstalled 3.7.0 twice but still can't build anything
02:41 soh_cah_toa_ somehow, a few directories in runtime/parrot/languages are now owned by root
02:41 soh_cah_toa_ i'll just pull a new repo, so nevermind
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: d7539e4 | soh_cah_toa++ | runtime/ (3 files):
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: Added README to 'runtime' directory.
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/d7539e4958
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: f798be4 | soh_cah_toa++ | src/README:
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: Added README to 'src' directory.
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f798be4efe
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: f0b754f | soh_cah_toa++ | / (2 files):
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: Renamed src/dynpmc/README.pod to dynpmc.pod and moved it into the 'docs' directory as this is a more appropriate place for documentation like this.
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f0b754f482
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: 061c618 | soh_cah_toa++ | tools/README:
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: Added README to 'tools' directory.
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/061c61833d
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: 2d781c5 | soh_cah_toa++ | / (12 files):
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: Corrected copyright notices in README files so that they are for 2011 only.
02:42 dalek parrot/soh-cah-toa/tt-2155: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/2d781c5aab
03:15 dukeleto ~~
03:15 dukeleto soh_cah_toa_: did you do something with sudo ?
03:16 soh_cah_toa_ dukeleto: for 'make install' but i always do a 'make realclean'
03:16 soh_cah_toa_ hm, maybe i need 'sudo make realclean'
03:18 soh_cah_toa_ actually, i never installed that branch so that makes no sense
03:19 soh_cah_toa_ whatever :\
03:39 benabik o/
03:45 benabik aloha: smolder?
03:45 aloha benabik: smolder is not automatic, but smolder clients can be
03:46 benabik aloha: no, smolder is a web service to collect test reports
03:46 aloha benabik: Okay.
03:46 benabik aloha: smolder is also http://smolder.parrot.org/a​pp/projects/smoke_reports/1
03:46 aloha benabik: Okay.
03:46 benabik aloha: smolder is also unstable
03:46 aloha benabik: Okay.
03:46 benabik aloha: smolder?
03:46 aloha benabik: smolder is a web service to collect test reports or http://smolder.parrot.org/a​pp/projects/smoke_reports/1 or unstable
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05:18 dukeleto aloha: smolder is also leaking memory
05:18 aloha dukeleto: Okay.
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10:41 dalek jaesop: 4343c8c | Whiteknight++ | / (6 files):
10:41 dalek jaesop: fix makefile so we build harnesslib.winxed when it changes. Update harnesslib to reflect rosella changes
10:41 dalek jaesop: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/jaesop/commit/4343c8cb73
10:41 dalek jaesop: 8478c3b | Whiteknight++ | / (4 files):
10:41 dalek jaesop: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:Whiteknight/jaesop
10:41 dalek jaesop: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/jaesop/commit/8478c3b66b
11:00 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: 25b07b0 | Whiteknight++ | t/ (2 files):
11:00 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: Some fixes to get the harness working again after recent rosella changes. Also, clean up the harness to take advantage of the new, cleaner APIs
11:00 dalek parrot-linear-algebra: review: https://github.com/Whiteknight/parr​ot-linear-algebra/commit/25b07b0e8c
11:06 Eclesia joined #parrot
11:06 Eclesia hi
11:07 whiteknight hello Eclesia
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12:26 whiteknight hmm...I'm getting a weird segfault now in PLA
12:30 whiteknight the pc looks like it's getting screwed up after calling IMCCompiler.compile_file
12:33 whiteknight I wonder if that extra call context mls removed from Parrot_pcc_invoke_from_sig_object was actually unnecessary
13:31 benabik o/
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14:02 whiteknight this is upsetting to me
14:05 whiteknight blah, have to go. Will dig into it later
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16:41 cotto ~ ~
17:02 wagle joined #parrot
17:27 dukeleto ~~
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18:17 benabik o/
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20:21 whiteknight good afternoon, #parrot
20:23 dukeleto whiteknight: howdy
20:23 whiteknight hello duke
20:25 dukeleto whiteknight: jolly good day
20:26 dukeleto whiteknight: what is the current best practice for including rosella in other projects so they are not an external dep?
20:26 whiteknight dukeleto: what do you mean?
20:26 dukeleto whiteknight: my parrot-libgit2 has pbc of rosella commited in the repo, which is broken and wrong
20:27 dukeleto whiteknight: i want to use rosella, but I don't want to force people to also install rosella. is that unreasonable?
20:27 dukeleto whiteknight: i guess a git submodule could solve this
20:28 whiteknight that's a good question. We've talked about it before
20:28 whiteknight obviously we never came to a good conclusion
20:28 whiteknight I've been assuming people will get it from Plumage
20:28 cotto what about rakudo's approach?
20:28 whiteknight but as a user, if you have an alternate idea I would love to hear it
20:29 cotto download/install if it's not detected, otherwise use the installed version
20:30 dukeleto cotto: that is another valid approach. But I think I have an itch to use a git submodule, so I don't have to maintain code to download/install/detect
20:31 whiteknight git submodule works fine for me. You're also welcome to snapshot source if that's easier
20:31 whiteknight I haven't been too good about tagging particular revisions of the individual libraries as they hit good stable points
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21:03 tadzik 'evening
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21:35 whiteknight cotto: ping
21:49 PerlJam whiteknight++
21:53 whiteknight don't ++  me yet. That email should have been sent two days ago, at least
21:54 whiteknight It's about time we start paying attention to what is important
21:55 PerlJam you get ++ anyway  :)
22:03 dalek parrot-libgit2: 9a40a3b | dukeleto++ | rosella/ (22 files):
22:03 dalek parrot-libgit2: remove rosella pbc
22:03 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/9a40a3bb45
22:03 dalek parrot-libgit2: 3f59f18 | dukeleto++ | / (2 files):
22:03 dalek parrot-libgit2: Add rosella as a git submodule, fixes #4
22:03 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/3f59f18a0f
22:07 dukeleto whiteknight: "Around the 1.0 release Perl6 moved to a new separate repository" should probably be "Around the 1.0 release Rakudo moved to a new separate repository" ...
22:07 dukeleto whiteknight: and while you are at it, if you can insert a "Duke" I would much appreciate it. On http://whiteknight.github.com​/2011/09/10/dust_settles.html
22:08 whiteknight where?
22:13 dukeleto whiteknight: s/Jonathan Leto/Jonathan "Duke" Leto/
22:14 cotto whiteknight, pong
22:14 cotto a blog post appears
22:14 * cotto investigates
22:15 sorear whiteknight: some time ago, when diakopter was trying to sell the CLR to me, he told me that the design phase of the CLR involved a survey of "7 major academic and commercial languages" and a study of what features were needed to support them in an at least adequate way
22:15 sorear whiteknight: you might try asking him for more details
22:15 dukeleto whiteknight: “Make Parrot the best platform possible for Rakudo, but do so in a way that adequately supports and does not actively preclude implementations of JavaScript and Python” <-- i can get behind that
22:15 cotto sorear, interesting
22:16 dukeleto whiteknight: i would love to hear a detailed plan for getting 6model into parrot core. Are you talking about using it wholesale? Rewriting it?
22:18 cotto dukeleto, "Parrot 5"?
22:19 cotto er, whiteknight
22:19 cotto nm, dukeleto
22:22 soh_cah_toa joined #parrot
22:23 sorear cotto: as someone who uses the result, its adequacy is wanting in some areas
22:24 cotto sorear, do you have a blog where you gripe about that kind of thing?
22:24 sorear no
22:24 cotto ok
22:27 sorear .NET 1.0, to a first approximation, used a sandbox model based on a chain of delegation
22:27 sorear file accesses are allowed iff file access is allowed for all modules that own methods in the call stack
22:28 sorear this system is deprecated now, but the legacy of it is that CLR tail calls are slower than just using a trampoline
22:29 * sorear wouldn't know what to write on a blog
22:29 * sorear does better when ey has an idea what people want to hear
22:37 cotto whiteknight, are you around?
22:45 whiteknight yessir
22:46 dukeleto wow, libgit2 has sexy docs: http://libgit2.github.com/libgit2/#HEA​D/group/repository/git_repository_open
22:46 whiteknight sorry, had to eat dinner
22:46 cotto whiteknight, I guess that's forgivable.
22:46 cotto ;)
22:46 whiteknight cotto: I wanted to point you towards that new email, and get your thoughts on it
22:47 cotto Thank you for being unambiguous that Rakudo is not the source of our problems.
22:47 whiteknight it needs to be said. And re-said.
22:47 cotto whiteknight, where's that gist you had of possible future projects for Parrot?
22:48 cotto er, projects, cleanups, refactors, etc
22:48 whiteknight https://gist.github.com/1198521
22:48 cotto that's the one
22:48 whiteknight that's just my personal sort of todo list. I'd be glad to add projects from other hackers as well
22:49 soh_cah_toa oh yay, debugging is there :)
22:49 cotto I'm thinking about what's a good next step.
22:49 whiteknight soh_cah_toa: and pretty high up
22:49 cotto whiteknight, you might move that the parrot org as a repo or wiki page.
22:50 soh_cah_toa that totally made my day
22:50 whiteknight we can move it someplace. I've been thinking we've needed something like a parrot-meta repo for a while
22:51 cotto whiteknight, start one then
22:51 cotto and +1
22:51 soh_cah_toa yeah, the wiki is a good place for that
22:51 soh_cah_toa though the wiki needs some serious love :\
22:52 cotto or moved to github
22:52 cotto and then loved
22:53 dukeleto just coredumped parrot from winxed, for the win
22:53 cotto dukeleto++
22:54 whiteknight dukeleto: I did the same thing today in PLA tests. Methinks there is a bug afoot
22:54 cotto One thing I've been thinking about is the relationship between 6model and M0.  Originally we planned to get 6model into Parrot, then move to M0, but part of the reason was because we thought we were going to preserve PIR compatibility.
22:55 cotto If we're free to throw out the bad parts, it's less imperative to have an intermediate non-M0 6model.
22:56 whiteknight if we do that, it means longer time until we have any 6model
22:56 cotto I haven't convinced myself that this is the best way forward.  At this point it's just an idea.
22:56 whiteknight I think it's critical enough that we shouldn't delay it any more than possible
22:56 cotto yes
22:58 whiteknight Considering the immediate beneficial impacts it could have on the development of Puffin and Jaesop, and the optimization potential we would gain throughout
22:58 whiteknight because it's not just the 6model code, it's the 6model way of doing things: native typed attributes, flexible storage mechanisms, hinting and optimizations, etc
22:58 cotto There's also the consideration that it's always easier to write something the second time.
22:59 dukeleto whiteknight: on the other hand, a test in parrot-libgit2 started to inexplicabely pass while it used to throw odd errors from winxed
23:00 dukeleto whiteknight: i think the coredumping from winxed is my fault, though. I was lying about StructView and calling C functions
23:01 dalek parrot-libgit2: 0776962 | dukeleto++ | / (2 files):
23:01 dalek parrot-libgit2: Add tests for Git2::Index and calling git_repository_index
23:01 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/0776962642
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23:03 bubaflub dukeleto: that's great / bizzare
23:03 bubaflub (re: the parrot-libgit2 fix)
23:03 dukeleto bubaflub: indeed
23:08 whiteknight dukeleto: I don't know what your problem was. In my case, IMCCompiler.compile_file is definitely causing segfaults
23:10 whiteknight .compile() does it too
23:14 whiteknight I'm going to try reverting that one commit from mls, see if that's the cause
23:19 whiteknight ...nope
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23:30 patspam t
23:31 whiteknight u
23:41 whiteknight Okay, I think I've narrowed down a pretty slim test case. I'm going to open a ticket
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23:59 dalek TT #2191 created by whiteknight++: Problems with IMCCompiler PMC
23:59 dalek TT #2191: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2191

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