Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-10-15

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:10 rfwazoo joined #parrot
00:15 whiteknight joined #parrot
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00:16 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
00:17 cotto ~~
00:19 whiteknight http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/​2011/10/google-code-in-are-you-in.html
00:19 dukeleto are we in?
00:20 * cotto misread had was hopeful that they were unkilling google code.
00:20 cotto search
00:21 whiteknight dukeleto: I don't know. I haven't applied or anything
00:22 dukeleto whiteknight: i know. it was rhetorical :)
00:23 dukeleto i have noticed a decline in parrot hacking lately. chromatic and bacek have seemingly thrown in the towel
00:24 whiteknight lulls happen. In my experience, they are usually seasonal
00:24 whiteknight fall is a hard time because school starts up again, etc
00:24 whiteknight it is upsetting to see chromatic and bacek go, but we have a few bright new faces to fill the space
00:27 * soh_cah_toa has noticed this as well
00:28 rfwazoo joined #parrot
00:28 soh_cah_toa to be honest, i've kinda lost my enthusiasm as well :\
00:30 wknight8111 joined #parrot
00:32 soh_cah_toa i don't blame chromatic either. i'm starting to understand his frustration myself
00:33 wknight8111 how so?
00:35 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: chromatic has been hacking on parrot since the very beginning. It should take you a few more years to get jaded ;)
00:35 soh_cah_toa well, he kinda felt that nobody was listening when he suggested new ideas and that everybody just kinda works on whatever they want and not what needs to be done
00:35 soh_cah_toa i couldn't relate at first during yapc but after a while, i see what he means
00:35 soh_cah_toa well, that should say something :\
00:37 wknight8111 it does take time to get moving on any project. the debugger stuff, for instance, is not something to just jump into
00:38 cotto I suspec that part of the problem is figuring out Parrot's identity.
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00:39 soh_cah_toa well, how long is too long really? and besides, at the time i suggested it the topic of discussion was how parrot needed more user facing applications, something i thought podds would address that
00:42 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: podds ? PDDs ?
00:42 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: my crapping acronym for the new debug format
00:43 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: parrot opcode debug "something"
00:43 soh_cah_toa see, i even forget what the "s" is for ;)
00:44 cotto segment?
00:44 soh_cah_toa it might have been serialization. parrot opcode debug serialization format
00:45 dukeleto cotto: yes, parrot is still looking for an identity
00:46 cotto I'm thinking something along the lines of "social language platform", though that might be too ambiguous wrt "social".
00:46 cotto (social == languages talk to eachother)
00:47 soh_cah_toa well, when they actually do perhaps
00:48 wknight8111 I think "social" is a word which is already overused
00:49 soh_cah_toa right now? "dependency for rakudo"
00:51 dukeleto cotto: i kind of like "social language platform"
00:51 dukeleto wknight8111: yes, i agree, the word is overused.
00:52 cotto that's true.
00:55 soh_cah_toa ya know, we talk a lot about how language interop is parrot's biggest selling point but in reality, we really don't support it sadly
01:03 cotto that's part of the identity problem.
01:08 soh_cah_toa yeah. that brings me back to chromatic's issue. something like language interop certainly gets talked about but does it really get worked on?
01:09 dukeleto i wrote a paltry few interop tests. I care about it, but haven't had the time to continue to care about it.
01:11 soh_cah_toa we talk about language interop, we talk about windows support, we talk about 6model, we talk about user-facing applications but what actually gets worked on is something completely different
01:12 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: what gets worked on is what scratches peoples itches
01:12 soh_cah_toa i'll argue that it's b/c parrot's code base is just way too unmaintainable. it's a nightmare to work on. no one wants to touch it
01:12 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: well, evidently a few people do. But I hear what you are saying.
01:12 soh_cah_toa well, parrot's motto isn't "come scratch your itch"
01:12 soh_cah_toa ;)
01:12 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: it might as well be
01:13 soh_cah_toa lol. that's so gross ;)
01:16 soh_cah_toa i mean, hacking on parrot is more of a chore than a pleasure. you've gotta be a super guru w/ years of experience like whiteknight to be able to make any sense of our code
01:18 soh_cah_toa which i guess is why whiteknight does most of the work ;)
01:19 soh_cah_toa the things that we need done just aren't attractive tasks to anybody which is why their "itches" are scratched elsewhere
01:20 soh_cah_toa case in point, imcc
01:25 soh_cah_toa my "itch" is to work on the debug and analysis aspect of pct languages but it's such a chore and frustration to even look at our code that i just lose my enthusiasm and forget about it :\
01:27 plobsing soh_cah_toa: who needs what done? why does imcc need doing? it does what it does fine for me. and it works great as a scapegoat for people who'd rather whine than JFDI.
01:28 soh_cah_toa the things we all talk about that needs to get done
01:29 plobsing then why isn't anyone doing anything? JFDI.
01:29 soh_cah_toa and there isn't anyone to jfdi
01:29 soh_cah_toa no one knows a thing about it. anyone who did has left
01:31 plobsing I would, but I get less friction at work, so I do that in stead.
01:31 soh_cah_toa well, there's a lot of "i would do it but..." said around here. i'm guilty of it myself
01:31 soh_cah_toa mostly "...but i don't know how" ;)
01:32 plobsing I'm also not one of the ones continuously chanting the mantras about things needing doing.
01:32 soh_cah_toa for me, that is
01:32 plobsing if you want something done... do it
01:32 soh_cah_toa i'm not pointing my finger at you
01:32 soh_cah_toa it's not what i want done
01:32 soh_cah_toa it's what we all say should be done
01:33 soh_cah_toa and agree "this is a goal"
01:33 plobsing who is we, what do we agree, and what is this goal? Parrot is like hearding cats. Embrace the chaos.
01:34 soh_cah_toa our goals
01:34 soh_cah_toa we're a team, man
01:34 soh_cah_toa roadmap goals, whatever
01:34 soh_cah_toa what we talk about during #ps
01:35 soh_cah_toa on parrot-dev
01:37 soh_cah_toa what i'm saying is what we talk about doing and what we actually do are two separate things
01:37 plobsing that's because the set of people talking and the set of people doing are not the same
01:38 soh_cah_toa well, we could all say why we think it is the way it is but the fact of the matter is "it is". it's a problem
01:39 soh_cah_toa is is is ;)
01:40 soh_cah_toa and needs to be addressed if parrot is to be successful
01:41 plobsing it is only a problem if you perceive it to be a problem. only if your perception of FOSS is an entitlement to other people to writing your code for you.
01:41 soh_cah_toa i'm not the first person so notice this though
01:41 soh_cah_toa s/so/to
01:42 soh_cah_toa it's not just me who feels this way
01:42 soh_cah_toa and no i don't think that ^
01:42 plobsing if you don't, then you realize you have to power to make of parrot whatever you want
01:42 plobsing s/to power/the power/
01:45 soh_cah_toa well, i'm not gonna go into metaphysics but i don't think i can make parrot "whatever i want" but that's not the issue
01:46 plobsing isn't it. I thought the issue was you, or "we", want parrot to be things it isn't at the moment.
01:46 soh_cah_toa no
01:47 plobsing ok, what's the issue then?
01:47 soh_cah_toa again, "what i'm saying is what we talk about doing and what we actually do are two separate things"
01:47 plobsing ah, that.
01:48 soh_cah_toa and i'm sorry but i'm not looking for a fight
01:49 plobsing I'm sorry if I'm being argumentative, but I'm tired of things being complained about but never acted on.
01:49 soh_cah_toa that's part of my point too
01:49 soh_cah_toa i mean, look at what you said and what i said. very few words are different
01:50 soh_cah_toa i personally don't have the power to fix an issue like this
01:50 soh_cah_toa it's a group thing
01:51 soh_cah_toa personally, when i don't work on roadmap goals it's b/c most of them are *far* out of my skill
01:52 plobsing roadmap goals are set at PDS by developpers that back the motion with a pledge to follow through
01:53 dukeleto plobsing++
01:53 dukeleto soh_cah_toa: the best we can do is do whatever each of us thinks is good for parrot
01:53 dukeleto We have no budget, no project manager, no paying customers and no enforced focus.
01:53 dukeleto So itches get scratched.
01:53 plobsing if they aren't being accomplished, that is the original backer's problem, not yours
01:53 dukeleto we haven't had much luck with roadmap items
01:53 dukeleto it usually seems like kid51 corners a few people into saying "i promise i will work on this!" but then it never happens
01:54 soh_cah_toa +1 to that
01:54 dukeleto no disrespect to kid51, i personally think that he helps to enforce focus on the chaos
01:54 dukeleto but that is basically what happens
01:54 soh_cah_toa dukeleto: no, that is exactly what i am saying
01:55 soh_cah_toa s/no/yes # poor grammar
01:57 dukeleto we can talk about stuff until the heat death of the universe. But what matters is making parrot do cool stuff and shipping it
01:57 soh_cah_toa again, i totally agree
01:58 dukeleto I, of course, lump Rakudo in with "cool stuff", but Rakudo is Rakudo and not quite Parrot.
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09:07 dalek tracwiki: v20 | fperrad++ | ListOfPlatforms
09:07 dalek tracwiki: Oneiric
09:07 dalek tracwiki: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/List​OfPlatforms?version=20&action=diff
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12:15 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
12:17 nine good morning whiteknight
12:18 whiteknight hello nine. How are you doing today?
12:18 nine Tired :) hard week, short night, but now it's weekend :)
12:19 nine you?
12:56 dalek digest-dynpmcs: 29a8ae5 | fperrad++ | / (2 files):
12:56 dalek digest-dynpmcs: get_pointer not longer in Default PMC
12:56 dalek digest-dynpmcs: see https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/​56c1ce0aec8921851910ff5fcadd060f48d1e6b0
12:56 dalek digest-dynpmcs: review: https://github.com/fperrad/dig​est-dynpmcs/commit/29a8ae5314
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: e0cc816 | masak++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: [NOMMAP.markdown] typography fixes
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e0cc816218
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: 3fd3534 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: run mro.t
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3fd353406b
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: 3e66bdf | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: track failures, run fudges
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3e66bdf773
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: ce15be4 | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: run fudged test
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ce15be4ee5
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: 03f4606 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: Merge branch 'nom' into optimizer
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/03f460649d
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: 11c3ffd | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: Fix line numbers consistently being off-by-one in optimizer detected errors.
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/11c3ffdb85
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: 96234ca | jnthn++ | src/binder/ (2 files):
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: Fix optimizer bug that could bust junction auto-threading.
13:45 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/96234ca174
13:50 dalek rakudo/optimizer: d59f093 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
13:50 dalek rakudo/optimizer: Twiddle an error message wording to be a bit more accurate, and make a test happy.
13:50 dalek rakudo/optimizer: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d59f093b24
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 03f4606 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge branch 'nom' into optimizer
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/03f460649d
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 11c3ffd | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix line numbers consistently being off-by-one in optimizer detected errors.
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/11c3ffdb85
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 96234ca | jnthn++ | src/binder/ (2 files):
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix optimizer bug that could bust junction auto-threading.
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/96234ca174
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: d59f093 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Twiddle an error message wording to be a bit more accurate, and make a test happy.
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d59f093b24
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15:49 dalek parrot/kid51/testsets: 0bdf115 | jkeenan++ | lib/Parrot/Harness/ (2 files):
15:49 dalek parrot/kid51/testsets: Create Parrot::Harness::TestSets as a location to hold all assignments to
15:49 dalek parrot/kid51/testsets: lists of tests used by 't/harness' and various 'make' testing targets.
15:49 dalek parrot/kid51/testsets:
15:49 dalek parrot/kid51/testsets: Move certain list assignments out of Parrot::Harness::DefaultTests to this new
15:49 dalek parrot/kid51/testsets: package -- but no other changes so far.
15:49 dalek parrot/kid51/testsets: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/0bdf115277
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22:39 dalek rakudo/nom: 0d0b9d0 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
22:39 dalek rakudo/nom: Handle the crazy case where the signature of a role ends up declaring a package. People come up with all sorts...
22:39 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0d0b9d09e1
22:47 dalek rakudo/nom: 06d230b | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
22:47 dalek rakudo/nom: Somehow managed to overlook anon scope modifier support for packages; here it is.
22:47 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/06d230bbe4
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23:02 dalek rakudo/nom: ad9d89c | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/Mixins.pm:
23:02 dalek rakudo/nom: Be sure not to lose boolification mode when mixing in.
23:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ad9d89c592
23:27 contingencyplan joined #parrot
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23:44 * Coke wonders why much of the failing tests are now failing with CHECK FAILED
23:44 Coke ww

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