Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2011-10-29

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Time Nick Message
00:34 whiteknight dukeleto: when do we hear back from google?
00:44 whiteknight cotto: ping
00:44 whiteknight nine: ping
01:11 Patterner dev-lang/nqp 2011.10 appeared on Gentoo :)
01:12 whiteknight nice
01:40 dalek parrot/green_threads: 4295769 | Whiteknight++ | src/pmc/ (2 files):
01:40 dalek parrot/green_threads: Add a current_task method to ParrotInterpreter to get the current task object (if any). Add code() and data() methods to Task to get/set the code and data object
01:40 dalek parrot/green_threads: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/4295769171
01:45 whiteknight msg nine I added a few helper methods in https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/4295769171. Let me know what you think about those
01:45 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
01:46 cotto whiteknight: pong
01:46 cotto whiteknight: I'm heading home but will be on in 15 minutes or so
01:46 whiteknight cotto: I want to start talking about a green_threads merge soon. Any reservations?
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02:09 cotto d'oh
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06:25 nine msg whiteknight excellent! Makes it rather hard to forget the gc write barrier
06:25 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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11:14 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
11:14 tadzik good morning whiteknight
11:14 whiteknight hello tadzik, how are you doing today?
11:16 tadzik pretty good, how about you?
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11:23 whiteknight tadzik: doing well. Woke up before everybody else to get some quiet hacking time in
11:24 tadzik ha
11:30 whiteknight I don't think I understand why Parrot has random number generation functions built in to libparrot, but those functions are only exposed through a dynop
11:30 whiteknight Either we should expose them since they are in libparrot, or we should move them out of libparrot
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11:42 moritz the whole distinction of what is an op and what is a dynop seems very arbitrary
11:43 moritz why is sqrt built-in but exp isn't?
11:43 moritz because sqrt is taught earlier in school?
11:45 moritz I think a better approach would be to say: we want to support perl, js, ruby, python, javascript, TCL, lua
11:45 moritz does the majority of those languages need $op?
11:46 moritz if yes, make it an ordinary op
11:46 moritz if only one or two needs $feature, make it a dynop
11:58 whiteknight moritz: I do not like, and never have liked, dynops. I don't think they are necessary
11:59 whiteknight moritz: the real question is whether a piece of functionality should be exposed as an op (relatively few, very simple) or as a PMC/Object
12:02 dalek parrot: 7822dc1 | Whiteknight++ | src/pmc/integer.pmc:
12:02 dalek parrot: add a set_random method to Integer PMC to get a random number without needing to load the math dynops
12:02 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/7822dc1ace
12:03 whiteknight moritz: and for the record, most of the dynops nqp and rakudo use should probably be merged into Parrot eventually, especially the ones for 6model-related stuff
12:08 dalek Rosella: d61a7a2 | Whiteknight++ | src/query/ (3 files):
12:08 dalek Rosella: Add an implementation of the knuth-fisher-yates shuffle, using the new set_random method in Parrot
12:08 dalek Rosella: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/d61a7a2791
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15:19 dukeleto ~~
15:21 dukeleto moritz: i agree, the distinction of what should be an op and what should be a dynop are far from clear
15:22 dukeleto moritz: but the concept of a dynop is very useful the embedded/mobile sphere
15:22 dukeleto in theory, a "mobile parrot" will have very little linked in by default, and individual instances of parrot can load ops at runtime via the dynop machinery
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15:45 dalek parrot: 8b03f39 | dukeleto++ | ChangeLog:
15:45 dalek parrot: Update changelog
15:45 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/8b03f39d97
16:20 dukeleto PackFile_Header_validate: This Parrot cannot read bytecode files with version 10.0.
16:20 dukeleto that error message really irks me
16:20 dukeleto it would be nice if it said which bc versions *were* supported
16:28 dalek parrot-libgit2: 6b04b2f | dukeleto++ | setup.winxed:
16:28 dalek parrot-libgit2: Clean up git2.pbc
16:28 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/6b04b2fbf0
16:28 dalek parrot-libgit2: 5a71fec | dukeleto++ | t/pir/001_load.t:
16:28 dalek parrot-libgit2: Add another PIR test for git_repository_index
16:28 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/5a71fec62a
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16:40 dukeleto whiteknight: do you know of any examples of NCI being used from Winxed?
16:41 whiteknight dukeleto: plobsing's deep-clone repo does it
16:42 dalek parrot-libgit2: 8ae4454 | dukeleto++ | / (2 files):
16:42 dukeleto whiteknight: oooh
16:42 dalek parrot-libgit2: Refactor Git2.Repository and winxed tests
16:42 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/8ae4454474
16:49 nine whiteknight: do I need the GC write barrier on any change of a PMC's internals or only when I change members that are PMCs themselves?
16:50 whiteknight nine: any time you add/change a PMC or STRING in the PMC, so the GC knows to keep track of the changes
16:51 nine whiteknight: ok, so not if I change an int or the private flags
16:51 whiteknight no, the GC doesn't care about those things
16:53 whiteknight nine: what are you working on now?
16:54 nine whiteknight: branched a threads branch off green_threads
16:54 whiteknight oh nice
16:54 whiteknight I'm going to run through the green_threads code again looking for last cleanups, then I think I'm going to start merging
16:54 nine whiteknight: brought back some of the OS threading abstractions from before kill_threads
16:55 whiteknight nine: okay, none of the abstractions were bad, we just weren't using them
16:55 nine whiteknight: also moved the enable_preemption flag to a scheduler.pmc private flag
16:55 whiteknight nine: as you go, if you accidentally fix up some of the naming conventions and other cleanups, that would be fine by me :)
16:56 nine will do as I recognize them ;)
16:58 nine oh....girlfriend called. On her way home and hungry -> me afk
17:07 whiteknight nine: I am going to try to move the enable_scheduling and enable_preemption flags to be attributes of the scheduler or interp or something. Concurrency abhors global variables
17:08 whiteknight any opinions on where things move?
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17:15 dukeleto whiteknight: both seem reasonable to be put in interp. To me, at least.
17:15 whiteknight dukeleto: I'm putting them in the scheduler for now.
17:15 dukeleto whiteknight: that sounds good too :)
17:15 whiteknight because it looks like the interps share schedulers for child/parent interps
17:16 whiteknight so it would be really complicated to be scheduling based on per-interp rules with a shared scheduler trying to keep up
17:16 dukeleto whiteknight: wfm
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17:16 whiteknight of course, the system nine puts into place eventually might be different. it's an easy move if we need
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17:28 dukeleto whiteknight: what is the equivalent of Data::Dumper in winxed?
17:29 dalek nqp: d116187 | jnthn++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
17:29 dalek nqp: Give SymbolTable::Event a more optimal constructor.
17:29 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d116187a24
17:36 whiteknight dukeleto: Rosella.Dumper, though it's still in development
17:37 dukeleto plobsing: ping
17:41 whiteknight dukeleto: Rosella.Dumper.default_dumper().dump(myObj);
17:42 dukeleto whiteknight++
17:42 dukeleto whiteknight: that needs an alias :)
17:42 dukeleto msg NotFound https://github.com/NotFound/winxed/issues/14
17:42 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
17:44 whiteknight dukeleto: that is the alias. the default_dumper() is just a pre-configured global instance
17:44 dalek parrot-libgit2: 6ebe5c4 | dukeleto++ | / (4 files):
17:44 dalek parrot-libgit2: Trade a 'null pmc access' error for a coredump (Movin' on up... to the east side...)
17:44 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/6ebe5c4aa5
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17:50 dukeleto whiteknight: have you used StructView much?
17:50 whiteknight no
17:52 plobsing dukeleto: pong
18:03 dukeleto plobsing: i have gotten further on https://github.com/letolab​s/parrot-libgit2/issues/7
18:03 dukeleto plobsing: but could use your help
18:03 plobsing I'll look into that now
18:03 dukeleto plobsing: it seems that structview.alloc() is returning a null pointer
18:05 dalek parrot/green_threads: e6fa7fc | Whiteknight++ | / (7 files):
18:05 dalek parrot/green_threads: rename enable_event_checking -> Parrot_runcore_enable_event_checking, disable_event_checking -> Parrot_runcore_disable_event_checking. Move the enable_preemption and enable_scheduling flags from global variables into scheduler attributes
18:05 dalek parrot/green_threads: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/e6fa7fc82c
18:05 dukeleto plobsing: or, somehow trying to store the result of alloc() into my ptr variable is not working
18:07 dukeleto plobsing: i am using the latest parrot + rosella master
18:07 plobsing I'm having winxed problems, so I'm trying to rebuild, but latest parrot/master isn't building for me.
18:07 dukeleto plobsing: oh noes!
18:07 dukeleto plobsing: what are you seeing?
18:08 plobsing wtf. someone added random functionality to integer.pmc?
18:09 dukeleto plobsing: not just someone...
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18:09 whiteknight plobsing: I added it
18:09 dukeleto plobsing: whiteknight did, by request from rakudo, methinks
18:09 whiteknight no, no request
18:09 whiteknight just me looking for a way to get it
18:10 plobsing well it doesn't compile
18:10 whiteknight doesn't?
18:10 plobsing mixed declarations and code
18:10 whiteknight bleh
18:10 whiteknight let me lok
18:10 whiteknight look
18:11 dukeleto we need distributed testing across compilers and platforms SO BADLY
18:12 dukeleto cotto++ and I attended a talk about distributed testing at the mentor summit
18:12 whiteknight we need to drop g++ support, and move up to a modern C standard
18:12 dukeleto trying very hard to decide between jenkins and buildbot
18:12 plobsing this is gcc 4.6
18:12 dukeleto whiteknight: my irony-ometer went off the charts
18:12 plobsing on linux
18:12 plobsing no excuses for exotic platforms
18:13 whiteknight plobsing: I'm not making excuses for that failure, but in the wider sense we should move to a better C standard
18:13 dalek parrot: 98dcec0 | Whiteknight++ | src/pmc/integer.pmc:
18:13 dalek parrot: fix build failure
18:13 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/98dcec0ae1
18:14 plobsing when the company that makes the OS most people use updates to a better standard, or most people update to a better OS...
18:14 plobsing not sure which is more likely
18:21 plobsing dukeleto: StructView.alloc() *isn't* being called
18:21 plobsing because your winxed-level constructor isn't being invoked
18:22 cotto ~~
18:23 plobsing dukeleto: also, it would be nice to warn about rosella not being installed when it is needed for tests
18:25 dukeleto plobsing: point taken
18:25 dukeleto plobsing: i used to bundle, but i had to bundle pbc and that was really dumb, so I removed that.
18:26 dukeleto plobsing: obviously, i really suck at Winxed
18:27 * dukeleto self.flagelates()
18:27 plobsing whiteknight: (re: random on integer.pmc) I think a better solution would be to expose the PRNG state as a PMC and expose the functionality that way. the interp could contain one to be used to access the global PRNG state.
18:27 whiteknight plobsing: yeah, I think there are better ways to do it, this isn't a final solution by any means
18:28 whiteknight it would be easiest to just move the rand-related ops from math.dynops to core ops
18:28 plobsing ok, so long as we're not setting a precedent of throwing unrelated methods on builtin PMCs as "proper design"
18:28 dukeleto whiteknight: what about loading math.dynops by default, but make that configurable?
18:28 whiteknight what bothered me most this morning was that we have Parrot_util_ random-related functions in libparrot, but we don't expose them to the user without dynops
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18:29 dukeleto plobsing: yeah, i kind of agree with you
18:29 sorear why DO we have so much of libparrot's and libc/libm's functionality exiled to dynops?
18:30 dukeleto many design issues hinge on whether the parrot being built is meant for a beefy desktop or a mobile processor
18:30 moritz because people were excited about a "lean core"
18:30 dukeleto sorear: parrot is meant to be lean by default
18:30 dukeleto moritz: i still am
18:30 dukeleto moritz: desktops are not the future. Mobile is.
18:30 whiteknight yes, parrot should be lean. But having the functionality in libparrot, but having the interfaces elsewhere is not lean
18:30 moritz dukeleto: I thought parrot was meant for high-level languages
18:30 plobsing whiteknight: I find the concept that libparrot always contains an implementation of drand48, when my stdlib contains that already, to be pretty stupid.
18:30 dukeleto moritz: this doesn't need to be a problem
18:31 dukeleto moritz: yes, HLLs on desktops and mobile
18:31 moritz dukeleto: and i believe that the future is a *fat* mobile phone :-)
18:31 dukeleto moritz: agreed
18:31 dukeleto i think the parrot build system needs the concept of a "flavor"
18:32 dukeleto the mobile "flavor" has only core ops, "tasty" which has most common ops+dynops that HLLs want, and perhaps a "beefy" which loads the entire kitchen sink
18:32 dukeleto right now, you have to hack the build system to do something like that
18:32 whiteknight that metaphore has already gone too far
18:32 dukeleto or we have to fight over what is an op and what is a dynop
18:32 dukeleto whiteknight: i can go much further :)
18:32 sorear moritz: if we're really serious about being lean, we should make dynops and dynpmcs out of subsystems that have a _non_ neglible code footprint
18:33 whiteknight sorear: yes.
18:33 plobsing like IO
18:33 whiteknight we need a major refactor of IO before that becomes possible
18:33 dukeleto sorear: make sure you take into account the Law of Conservation of Tuits
18:34 dukeleto sorear: being serious and having the tuits to do something are orthogonal
18:35 dukeleto plobsing: mobile apps still want IO, so that just seems to be an abstraction for abstractions sake
18:35 dukeleto plobsing: even if it is not a lot of code
18:35 dukeleto plobsing: the constraint is use, not SLOC
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18:36 dukeleto plobsing: so my alloc() function is not running. How am I abusing Winxed? I don't feel like this is documented.
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18:36 plobsing dukeleto: 'new X' doesn't call the winxed constructor. it is equivalent to 'new "X"'. use 'new X()' to get the constructor.
18:37 dukeleto plobsing: blarg!
18:37 plobsing dukeleto: there is a lot of IO code that isn't necessary to write a large class of usefull programs
18:39 dukeleto plobsing: sure, i agree.
18:39 dukeleto # Cannot resume dead coroutine.
18:39 dukeleto first time I've ever seen that. Awesome.
18:45 dukeleto plobsing: thanks for unsticking me!
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: d09f610 | dukeleto++ | src/git2.nci:
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: Update to the fluffy unicorn deliciousness of libgit2 v0.15
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/d09f61034b
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: 0f44d93 | dukeleto++ | t/winxed/001_load.t:
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: Actually call the Git2.Repository constructor, fixes #7, plobsing++
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/0f44d934d5
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: b9988c9 | dukeleto++ | src/Git2/Repository.winxed:
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: Fix size of the git_cache StructView
18:53 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/b9988c9806
18:56 dukeleto plobsing: so close to getting it working
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18:58 dukeleto plobsing: is "yield" in winxed documented somewhere?
19:12 plobsing winxed has documentation?
19:13 plobsing I usually just RTFS
19:13 whiteknight whiteknight.github.com/Rosella
19:13 whiteknight whiteknight.github.com/Rosella/winxed
19:14 whiteknight if a coroutine exits, it is dead and can't just be called again like a normal function
19:15 whiteknight I protested that decision, but apparently it's better this way for whatever reason
19:15 dukeleto whiteknight: good to know
19:15 whiteknight you have to reset the coroutine, but I don't think there is a "I am dead" flag you can check before running into the exception
19:15 whiteknight ...another decision I protested
19:15 dukeleto whiteknight: your docs state that no nested namespace sugar exists, but i think that was added recently, right? I am using it
19:16 whiteknight yeah, it was added recently. The docs are a little outdated
19:16 whiteknight Rosella uses them pretty extensively now too
19:16 cotto How's it a bad idea to be able to know if a coroutine is callable?
19:18 whiteknight no idea
19:18 whiteknight now would be a perfect time to re-think coroutines, if any architects in the house are open to it
19:18 * cotto looks around
19:18 whiteknight cotto: also, I want to merge green_threads. Any objections?
19:19 cotto whiteknight, go for it
19:19 whiteknight you had me at "go for it"
19:19 cotto ...ok
19:21 dukeleto plobsing: what is the yield statement in the example you gave me supposed to do?
19:25 plobsing which example?
19:26 dukeleto plobsing: on https://github.com/letolab​s/parrot-libgit2/issues/7
19:28 plobsing that's supposed to make use of only one structview PMC. other idioms for this pattern exist (for example, using a constant).
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19:44 dukeleto i see no docs nor tests for yield in winxed
19:44 * dukeleto sighs
19:45 dalek parrot-libgit2: cddea6b | dukeleto++ | / (2 files):
19:45 dalek parrot-libgit2: Refactor Cache and RefCache into their own winxed files
19:45 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/cddea6bad4
19:45 dalek parrot-libgit2: d91b14a | dukeleto++ | / (4 files):
19:45 dalek parrot-libgit2: Add the Cache and RefCache classes
19:45 dalek parrot-libgit2: review: https://github.com/letolabs/pa​rrot-libgit2/commit/d91b14adb9
19:45 dukeleto cotto: this is making me lean towards jenkins ... http://pkg.jenkins-ci.org/debian/
19:52 cotto dukeleto, that's some good laziness
19:57 dukeleto plobsing: do you have any insight into this? https://github.com/letolab​s/parrot-libgit2/issues/8
19:57 dukeleto plobsing: i am stuck again
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20:12 dalek rakudo/nom: 40f181b | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
20:12 dalek rakudo/nom: fix "cannot have attributes" error message for the mainline. jnthn++
20:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/40f181b8f7
20:13 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: 0a0bbe9 | Whiteknight++ | winxed/ (5 files):
20:13 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: Several updates and additions to documentation
20:13 dalek Rosella/gh-pages: review: https://github.com/Whiteknig​ht/Rosella/commit/0a0bbe9966
20:14 whiteknight dukeleto: yield in winxed is the same as yield in Parrot. I use it several times in Rosella
20:14 whiteknight dukeleto: what do you need to know about it?
20:15 dalek parrot: 17a6980 | Whiteknight++ | / (56 files):
20:15 dalek parrot: Merge branch 'green_threads'
20:15 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/17a6980119
20:16 whiteknight ladies and gentlemen, Parrot officially has green threads. nine++
20:16 whiteknight msg nine seriously, I'm amped about threads. Tell me what you need. Point me in any direction and let me loose
20:16 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
20:16 moritz nine++
20:17 dalek nqp: b498832 | moritz++ | tools/build/PARROT_REVISION:
20:17 dalek nqp: bump PARROT_REVISION to after the green_threads merge to get some more testing
20:17 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b498832b5d
20:18 whiteknight nine++ indeed
20:18 dalek parrot: aed1bca | Whiteknight++ | ChangeLog:
20:18 dalek parrot: Add note about green_threads to ChangeLog
20:18 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/aed1bcaf01
20:19 cotto nine++
20:20 Khisanth joined #parrot
20:24 whiteknight nine has already moved on to real threads, thats where the hard work is
20:25 whiteknight I'm going to add eventing to Rosella, then I'm going to join him
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20:29 nine woah...away for just three hours and my branch got merged :) thanks whiteknight
20:29 whiteknight nine: no, thank you :)
20:30 nine whiteknight: regarding enable_preemption and enable_scheduling: I changed enable_preemption to a scheduler flag already in the threads branch
20:30 whiteknight nine: okay, well both are scheduler attributes in master. Feel free to change them to flags if you prefer
20:31 whiteknight or, I can cargo-cult that change
20:31 nine well I'm not sure what the better place is anyway. But since flags were there I thought I could as well just use them ;)
20:31 ttbot Parrot 3fe43f82 i386-linux-thread-multi make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/55982
20:34 whiteknight doing the flags is much more limited, but doesn't require the extra pointer deref
20:37 nine well those two flags are very boolean and have a very limited purpose. So I guess limited is okay. And Parrot_cx_preemption_enabled is called twice for every alarm.
20:38 whiteknight ok
20:43 nine One other thing that came to my mind: the HLL is responsible for sharing PMCs between threads but this is not really needed for tasks. Since the HLL sees only tasks which the scheduler may move to a different thread, the HLL is missing some information to make that decision.
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21:21 nine On the other hand, the number of shared PMCs might give the scheduler a clue if a task is better left on the same thread or moved to it's own. Though the number of actual writes would be much more useful for that...
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21:53 whiteknight nine: We can have that be an option. Add a "stay on this thread" arg to the schedule op
21:53 whiteknight if 1, we always stay on the same thread. If 0, do whatever makes sense
21:54 whiteknight then the HLL compiler can generate whichever code it wants
22:11 * whiteknight actually has no idea how he wants to do eventing for Rosella
22:11 whiteknight putting the architecture together in a way that doesn't suck is surprisingly hard
22:13 whiteknight it also doesn't help that I keep trying to support more features than is reasonable or even desirable
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23:13 kid51 nopaste?
23:13 kid51 aloha, nopaste?
23:13 aloha kid51: nopaste is is http://nopaste.snit.ch (works with the script in $_PARROT/tools/dev/nopaste.pl)
23:16 nopaste "kid51" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "t/pmc/nci.t: New failure on darwin" (54 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/90961
23:18 dukeleto looks like an overflow/underflow issue
23:19 kid51 Is the test perhaps too specific OS-wise?
23:23 kid51 The only recent change in the test file itself was:
23:23 kid51 +    # Need to force reschedule to see async callbacks.
23:23 kid51 +    # Chandon TODO: Is this a bug?
23:23 kid51 +    sleep 0.001
23:25 kid51 The failing test is essentially unchanged since 2008 -- and appears to have been originally written by Leo in 2004!
23:27 whiteknight joined #parrot
23:32 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
23:36 dukeleto i am really impressed by jenkins
23:37 kid51 Hmm, it appears that my report last night that green_threads was passing on Darwin was wrong.
23:37 kid51 This smolder report shows that failure was present in green_threads branch on Darwin:  http://smolder.parrot.org/app/​projects/report_details/24192

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