Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2012-03-16

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:23 whiteknight hello dukeleto
00:23 whiteknight we should find out tomorrow whether we are in GSOC
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03:34 benabik ~~
03:40 benabik msg whiteknight "shotgun cleanup" is such a wonderful phrase.  I still like "refactoring with fire"
03:40 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
03:41 benabik msg whiteknight The Parrot_pfw_ API sounds sane to me.
03:41 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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08:33 dalek rakudo/nom: 8c7747b | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
08:33 dalek rakudo/nom: [ChangeLog]: note that scoped multis now die
08:33 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8c7747b008
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08:50 bacek ~~
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12:05 not_gerd hello, #parrot
12:06 not_gerd bacek: what do you think about using a single, shared call context per thread for passing information down the call graph instead of re-using the parent one?
12:07 * Coke is glad to see some technical discussion on list.
12:07 Coke even if it seems to not be happening in the same room yet.
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13:14 dalek nqp: 07ce402 | (Gerhard R)++ | src/6model/base64. (2 files):
13:14 dalek nqp: Make base64.[ch] compile with new error levels
13:14 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/07ce402461
13:14 dalek nqp: ffd778a | moritz++ | src/6model/base64. (2 files):
13:14 dalek nqp: Merge pull request #31 from gerdr/gerdr/cleanup
13:14 dalek nqp:
13:14 dalek nqp: Make base64.[ch] compile with new error levels
13:14 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ffd778ac69
13:23 allison not_gerd: Parrot's CallContexts are just the same as old-fashioned call stack frames
13:23 allison not_gerd: there is some data that you need to store for each call that you make
13:24 allison not_gerd: it's a small amount of data, but it's also unique to each call, so every call needs one
13:40 ttbot Parrot d296f64f i386-linux-thread-multi make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/72826
13:43 ttbot Parrot d923903b i386-freebsd-64int make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/72837
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13:52 not_gerd allison: what I'm getting at is that the caller only needs to pass the information necessary to create a CallContext to the callee, but that can be done without actually allocating a new one (more)
13:54 not_gerd allison: the long term goal could be to get rid of call contextx altogether and instead us reserved registers, ie the caller puts  the necessary information into a thread-local location, and the callee moves it to a set of reserved registers
13:54 allison There was a time that Parrot passed arguments in reserved registers
13:55 allison but, it was problematic, for several reasons
13:55 allison partly, it burned through registers
13:56 allison partly, it triggered register spilling (which is expensive) with far greater frequency
13:56 allison partly, it meant we had to allocate registers sooner
13:57 allison partly, it meant that even simply asynchronous calls (not even full concurrency) were unsafe
13:58 allison partly, it made continuations very expensive
13:58 allison because taking a continuation meant snapshotting all active registers so they could be restored later
13:59 allison (and restoring them later had a nasty habit of trashing active registers that were still needed)
14:05 dalek nqp: fdec156 | moritz++ | tools/build/PARROT_REVISION:
14:05 dalek nqp: bump parrot revision
14:05 dalek nqp:
14:05 dalek nqp: just to get some better testing of newer birds, no specific reason
14:05 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fdec156a02
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 40b20ca | moritz++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: bump NQP revision to get NQP build fixes by not_gerd++
14:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/40b20cac12
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14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: 16bf0f4 | moritz++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: unbreak the build.
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/16bf0f4d1a
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17:29 Coke sounds like the recent CFLAGS changes have broken dyncall.
17:32 * moritz is about to open an issue
17:33 Coke moritz++
17:33 Coke I'm pretty sure those changes are just to make porting easier, so if they break something, reverting them should be OK.
17:33 Coke but if it's not a rush, we should ping alester.
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17:55 whiteknight Parrot is accepted into GSOC 2012
17:55 tadzik \o/
17:55 whiteknight hello tadzik
17:55 whiteknight I just got the email.
17:55 tadzik 'ello whiteknight
17:56 tadzik I can see you're in a different timezone. Here it says that orgs will be announced in an hour and 4 minutes :)
17:57 whiteknight They are probably reviewing and accepting them on a rolling basis
17:57 tadzik no, it must be timezones
17:58 aloha (parrot/parrot) Issues opened : 735 (adding -Werror=strict-prototypes to CFLAGS breaks nqp build on some platforms) by moritz : https://github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/735
18:03 not_gerd joined #parrot
18:08 aloha (parrot/parrot) Issues opened : 736 ("perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot" fails) by parthm : https://github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/736
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18:21 parth Hello. I am trying to build a language shell created with create_language.pl.
18:22 whiteknight parth: yes, I just saw the ticket
18:22 whiteknight what kind of a language are you working on?
18:22 moritz fwiw it seems that cloning parrot fails
18:23 parth hi whiteknight: i am exploring the possibility of creating an experimental smalltalk variant.
18:23 whiteknight parth: oh, awesome
18:23 moritz it might help to use the git:// URL instead of the https URL
18:23 parth i tried using --parrot-config option. that seems to fail too http://pastebin.com/K4KUBvKV is this expected?
18:24 whiteknight oh, okay, do you have Parrot installed?
18:25 parth i haven't installed it. i just built the downloaded tarball.
18:25 whiteknight Can you try to "make install" it?
18:25 whiteknight I think create_language.pl is looking for the installed binary, not the local one
18:25 parth mortiz: https seems to work ok from the command prompt using git http://pastebin.com/HzYb3SPG
18:26 parth whiteknight: yup. i was hoping it would pick up the one built. is this by design?
18:26 whiteknight parth: I don't think so. Looks like a bug to me
18:27 whiteknight parth: We can fix the script, but if you install parrot you shouldn't have to wait
18:27 parth whiteknight: i will go ahead and file it. yes. will try with install.
18:28 parth whiteknight: thanks for verifying this.
18:28 whiteknight thanks. Good luck! Let us know if you have any questions
18:31 Coke whiteknight: i am tentatively interested in being a mentor.
18:32 whiteknight Coke++
18:32 whiteknight Coke: And I hope we can pair you up with somebody awesome
18:33 aloha (parrot/parrot) Issues opened : 737 ("perl Configure.pl --parrot-config <path>" looks for parrot-nqp in /usr/local/bin) by parthm : https://github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/737
18:35 Coke either way I hope to do a better job personally than I did last year.
18:35 cotto ~~
18:36 Coke wait, high school students can apply?
18:36 Coke I thought that was GCI.
18:36 Coke I thought you had to be college aged for GSOC.
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18:38 whiteknight Coke: I'll have to go back and look at the requirements, I thought that highschool kids could apply
18:39 whiteknight is github crapping out for anybody else? I'm having trouble loading pages
18:44 moritz yes
18:45 whiteknight okay, good. The network here at work is terrible, so if it was just me I would have to go yell at somebody
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19:10 whiteknight Coke: must be at least 18. Otherwise can be in (or recently graduated from) highschool or college
19:10 Coke TPF didn't make it into GSOC this year.
19:10 Coke that's... odd.
19:10 whiteknight lolwat? That stinks
19:10 cotto That's most surprising.
19:10 whiteknight did they apply?
19:11 Coke aye.
19:11 whiteknight If Rakudo has any project ideas, I suspect we can offer those under our name
19:11 Coke we'll find out after the irc meeting next week.
19:11 Coke whiteknight: aye.
19:12 Coke (the more projects the better.)
19:12 whiteknight yes, and the bigger the supply of mentors, the better
19:12 whiteknight last year we had just a few too few mentors, and at least one project couldn't be taken because of that
19:13 whiteknight not that all available mentors are interested in all available proposals
19:15 moritz I'm happy to mentor any Perl 6 stuff under the umbrella of PaFo, though I'll understand it if you want to reserve your slots for stuff that's more directly related to parrot
19:26 dalek nqp: 99f34ab | (Gerhard R)++ | 3rdparty/dyncall/GNUmakefile:
19:26 dalek nqp: Temporary fix for dyncall build failure
19:26 dalek nqp:
19:26 dalek nqp: See https://github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/735
19:26 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/99f34ab081
19:32 whiteknight moritz++
19:32 whiteknight ...and so it begins. The shitstorm of open-source developers who criticize everything google does during GSOC because some people don't know how to graciously accept charity
19:34 sorear whiteknight: are you saying that in a way that includes the reactions on #parrot and #perl6?
19:34 whiteknight sorear: no, on the gsoc mailing list
19:35 sorear ok.
19:35 Coke bunchawhiners, summathem.
19:35 whiteknight Every day during GSOC and GCI those lists get bullshit complainy emails. "Your form isn't intuitive", "the wording on your website is weird", "I wish the data would fill in automatically", "Can you make an aesthetic change?"
19:36 Coke granted, email makes them sound worse, but they should try to compensate for that.
19:36 sorear I find that generally the people who complain most annoyingly are people I don't care to listen to in the first place
19:36 whiteknight it's bugging me that TPF didn't get in
19:37 sorear (mlehmann being the main exception)
19:37 whiteknight unless their application was woefully underwhelming or something
19:37 whiteknight "We're perl. Maybe you've heard of us. We're kind of a big deal"
19:37 sorear (probably some of you will disagree with me about mlehmann being worth listening to)
19:37 whiteknight sorear: I'm not sure I know who that is
19:38 sorear JSON::XS, AnyEvent, Coro, rxvt-unicode, libevent
19:39 whiteknight oh, okay
19:42 Coke I only know mlehmann from his responses on [perl #108470]
19:45 awwaiid whiteknight, also libev (foundation of node.js), unicode-rxvt
19:47 sorear I meant libev, yes
19:55 benabik o/
20:06 whiteknight benabik!
20:06 benabik \o/ whiteknight!
20:06 benabik Unless I broke something, in which case...
20:06 not_benabik I wasn't here.
20:06 whiteknight benabik: start getting your project idea together. We're going full-throttle this summer
20:07 whiteknight sleep and meal breaks are for the weak
20:07 benabik Well, I've got a plan already in place for not having any sleep.
20:07 Coke ah, for me that was this week!
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20:11 benabik I'm going to have to be careful what I promise this summer.  My thesis is probably going to run a little long and then who knows what'll happen with the kiddo.
20:12 * benabik would rather aim a little low and overshoot than the other way around.
20:13 whiteknight okay, we'll recalibrate expectations later. Today is for celebrating!
20:13 benabik \o/
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20:27 whiteknight anyway, time to go. I'll be back online tonight
20:28 ttbot Parrot 8032bfa2 darwin-thread-multi-2level make error http://tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/73062
20:42 mj41 Hi. Ignore the last ttbot message. I'm trying to setup MacOS client.
20:43 cotto phew
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21:09 mj41 tt client machine macos is back http://tt.taptinder.org/buildstatus/parrot/master
21:18 dukeleto ~~
21:21 dukeleto blarg
21:21 benabik dukeleto: ?
21:22 dukeleto benabik: my irc proxies were fighting, better now :)
21:24 benabik dukeleto: You? IRC problems? Never.  ;-)
21:30 * davidfetter wonders what the other duke leto would have done about duelling proxies
21:32 dukeleto Yeah, i need to find something better than dircproxy, or change the default settings.
21:33 davidfetter for some reason, dircproxy reminds me of "team america: world police"
21:39 benabik One of these days I'm going to get up znc on my server.
21:39 benabik Mostly because it supports push notifications to my phone.
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22:35 cotto dukeleto: how'd dircproxy deficient?
22:38 luben_at_work joined #parrot
22:41 dukeleto cotto: the default behavior to is autoreconnect, which is useful, unless you leave an irc window open somewhere and then open another
22:41 dukeleto cotto: then the irc clients fight to the death forever disconnecting each other
22:41 dukeleto cotto: this happens when i leave my irc client open on my desktop at home and then try to get on irc on my laptop
22:42 cotto yeah. lta
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22:59 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
22:59 benabik evening!
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23:08 whiteknight hello benabik
23:13 dukeleto whiteknight: congrats on getting us into gsoc!
23:13 dukeleto whiteknight++
23:13 whiteknight Thanks!
23:14 davidfetter who's all using parrot in production?
23:18 dukeleto davidfetter: what does "in production" mean" ;)
23:18 dukeleto davidfetter: i use it to produce bytecode every day!
23:19 davidfetter dukeleto, i'm pretty sure you know what i mean
23:19 cotto I'm not aware of any production users.
23:20 benabik You can be one of the first!  How exciting!
23:31 dukeleto davidfetter: yeah, maybe you can ask VMware if they want to use Parrot in production...
23:31 dukeleto davidfetter: do you have suggestions about who are first prod users could be?
23:31 dukeleto davidfetter: is it PL/Parrot, maybe?
23:31 dukeleto davidfetter: or something else?
23:32 davidfetter dukeleto, i need an elevator pitch, and i don't have one
23:32 davidfetter partly because i don't know enough about parrot
23:35 dukeleto davidfetter: that is the hard part. Parrot is an enabling technology, but I am not sure what kind of elevator pitch Parrot core would have
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23:35 dukeleto davidfetter: an app built on parrot could have a good elevator pitch, though
23:36 dukeleto davidfetter: i still have high hopes for parrot in the mobile and embedded world
23:36 dukeleto davidfetter: "We make bytecode so you don't have to"
23:36 davidfetter i've got a perl6 pitch: grammars
23:36 benabik We'd have to be a bit more svelte for mobile.
23:36 dukeleto davidfetter: "We wrote 5 garbage collectors so you don't have to"
23:36 dukeleto benabik: yeah, i have a plan for parrot "flavors"
23:37 dukeleto benabik: parrot is already more svelte than perl5
23:37 benabik When trying to explain Parrot during my interviews, I explained it as bootstrapping.  Doing all the hard parts for new languages: portability, libraries, GC.
23:37 davidfetter benabik, my mobile phone kicks the butt of the server systems i had running 10 years back. i think the "svelte" part's overrated
23:41 dukeleto davidfetter: a good point, indeed
23:42 davidfetter "it's not fatter than perl5" is damning with faint praise, and it's definitely not an elevator pitch
23:42 dukeleto davidfetter: indeed, again
23:43 dukeleto davidfetter: "Parrot is a toolbox for language and DSL development"
23:44 dukeleto whiteknight: feel free to put me down as backup admin/mentor for gsoc
23:44 dukeleto whiteknight: if you haven't already :)

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