Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2012-03-28

Parrot | source cross referenced

| Channels | #parrot index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:26 whiteknight NotFound: That last example in my gist still doesn't work
00:27 whiteknight https://gist.github.com/2159106#file_generated.pir
00:27 whiteknight the .const 'Sub' line happens after the optional args are set up. I'll take a look at it
00:41 whiteknight msg NotFound: https://github.com/Whiteknight/winxed/commi​t/ccf86eb95974fb9b3b3cd3b057bab2f29f150be4
00:41 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
00:49 benabik joined #parrot
01:01 bacek_at_work joined #parrot
01:01 jashwanth joined #parrot
01:02 kid51 joined #parrot
01:02 bacek_at_work aloha, humans
01:07 alvis` joined #parrot
01:09 whiteknight hello bacek
01:09 whiteknight bacek: Excellent branchwork
01:10 bacek_at_work whiteknight, thanks. Now stop slacking and jump on this branch to finish it :)
01:19 whiteknight bacek_at_work: does this branch build?
01:20 bacek_at_work whiteknight,
01:20 bacek_at_work whiteknight, yes. But new Signature isn't hooked up at all.
01:20 whiteknight src/call/signature.c:66:3: error: redefinition of typedef 'Parrot_Signature' is invalid in C [-Wtypedef-redefinition]
01:21 whiteknight wtf, that error doesn't make any sense
01:23 whiteknight nevermind, I'll make it work
01:24 bacek_at_work whiteknight, good, good. Come to the dark side, young padavan.
01:25 whiteknight compilers/pge/PGE/builtins.pg appears to hang
01:26 bacek_at_work whiteknight, just use make corevm. I had few changes which blocks full build.
01:26 whiteknight okay
01:26 whiteknight I need to review your changes more closely before I can do any work
01:27 kid51 msg alester [ot] Your debugging expertise is cited in https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ti​cket/Display.html?id=71678
01:27 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
01:40 bacek_at_work aloha, seen dalek
01:40 aloha bacek_at_work: dalek was last seen in #parrot 13 hours 41 mins ago saying "parrot/pcc_reorder: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/d3630a9ae9".
01:40 bacek_at_work meh....
01:41 bacek_at_work whiteknight, https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/​93f641b52bbcf4acb791ba0d42eef5518fbbfdb2
01:41 bacek_at_work this should give overall idea how to proceed :)
01:45 benabik joined #parrot
01:46 jashwanth hello whiteknight
01:50 whiteknight hello jashwanth
01:50 whiteknight jashwanth: where do you live?
01:58 alester kid51: Not exactly.  He's just referring to a book on the debugger that I have a co-author credit on.
02:04 kid51 alester:  Well, if you have any thoughts on those issues, feel free to post.
02:05 * kid51 has never used 'a' command in debugger.
02:05 alester Oh hell no.  I don't know the Perl debugger at all. :-)
02:05 kid51 How did you co-author the book, then?
02:05 alester My name is a co-author because I helped Richard drive it to completion and did a lot of edits.
02:05 kid51 Ah, you cracked the whip!
02:06 alester Kinda.  They were about to kill the book, and I said I'd help 'im finish it.
02:07 awwaiid fancy
02:13 mdupont joined #parrot
02:57 nbrown joined #parrot
03:22 GeJ joined #parrot
04:45 fperrad joined #parrot
04:48 GeJ joined #parrot
05:19 preflex_ joined #parrot
07:12 bacek_ joined #parrot
07:18 mj41 joined #parrot
07:21 TonyC joined #parrot
07:22 nopaste joined #parrot
08:16 lucian_ joined #parrot
08:17 cosimo_ joined #parrot
10:24 bacek_ joined #parrot
10:25 bacek_ joined #parrot
10:26 bacek_ joined #parrot
10:43 bacek_ joined #parrot
10:46 bacek_ joined #parrot
10:56 fperrad joined #parrot
12:16 whiteknight joined #parrot
12:16 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
12:20 tadzik hello whiteknight
12:22 whiteknight good morning, tadzik
12:35 Infinoid sorear: pong
12:40 whiteknight Infinoid!
12:40 Infinoid hi whiteknight :)
12:41 whiteknight Infinoid: How are things?
12:44 Infinoid Still busy, but good
12:45 Infinoid I made the mistake of getting hired by a company that makes me actually use my brain... so I'm not left with a lot of bandwidth for other things
12:45 Infinoid Sorry for disappearing off the end of the earth
12:45 moritz if it makes you happy, it was the right choice :-)
12:50 whiteknight Infinoid: what company are you at now?
12:51 whiteknight or is it the same place?
12:51 Infinoid Same place.  http://www.etinternational.com/
12:52 whiteknight cool
12:55 masak Infinoid! \o/
12:58 bacek_ joined #parrot
13:47 hercynium joined #parrot
13:48 JimmyZ joined #parrot
13:48 JimmyZ hello #parrot
13:50 JimmyZ looks like m0 is deviated from http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/LoritoRoadmap
13:55 PacoAir joined #parrot
13:56 whiteknight hello JimmyZ
13:57 JimmyZ_ joined #parrot
14:13 alester joined #parrot
14:25 jashwanth joined #parrot
14:29 lateau joined #parrot
14:31 NotFound whiteknight: ping
14:31 PacoAir joined #parrot
14:31 whiteknight NotFound: pong
14:32 NotFound whiteknight: What does that patch? Emiting const subs before patameter defaults?
14:33 whiteknight function foo(var x = NameSpace.func()) { }
14:33 whiteknight that doesn't work before the patch
14:33 NotFound Ah, yes, forgot to add that part in my test program.
14:33 whiteknight doesn't look like anything else breaks
14:34 NotFound whiteknight: Good, going to merge it.
14:34 whiteknight thanks
14:34 whiteknight NotFound++
14:34 NotFound whiteknight: about Guitor and gsoc: low level xlib is hard, I doubt any student will pick it.
14:35 benabik joined #parrot
14:35 whiteknight NotFound: if they pick it or not, we can still write the idea
14:35 whiteknight NotFound: you picked xlib. Somebody else might be like you :)
14:35 benabik Good morning, #parrot
14:36 whiteknight hello benabik
14:36 PacoAir joined #parrot
14:36 NotFound whiteknight: yes, but these days people tend to use Cairo or the like instead of dealing directly with X.
14:37 whiteknight I would love to have Cairo bindings too
14:37 NotFound That's a good idea.
14:39 NotFound I'd like a java copiler targeting parrot, or even a tiny java subset.
14:39 whiteknight yes, that was proposed last year
14:39 PacoAir joined #parrot
14:40 NotFound Yeah, but last year I hadn't any interesting java code. Now I have my new Basic interpreter.
14:40 benabik I would personally like to see more infrastructural work.  Parrot needs low-level work to move forward.
14:40 benabik But I'm a systems kinda guy.  :-D
14:40 whiteknight benabik: you could change to a different project :)
14:40 moritz if we get Cairo bindings, who will maintain them?
14:40 benabik whiteknight: Well, I consider PCT/PIR to be low-level.  :-D
14:41 NotFound moritz: they don't need to be in core, an external project is fine.
14:41 whiteknight JIT and Threads are the next two things that we really need to be added in core, and nine has Threads mostly done
14:41 whiteknight All other changes in core are rewrites, cleanups, refactors, optimizations, etc
14:42 whiteknight It's hard to say "I'm going to add X to parrot core", because there aren't a lot of well-defined X values that we need from the ground-up
14:42 benabik whiteknight: 6model, although that should really go along with a PMC refactor (with fire, perhaps)
14:42 whiteknight yeah, and that's something that we "have", if you don't mind dynloading it
14:43 NotFound Threading will allow interesting applications.
14:43 whiteknight yeah, I guess we can say "new object model", with the stipulation that 6model be a core part of it
14:44 whiteknight NotFound: yes, I'm very excited.
14:45 NotFound Now that I think about it, there is a thing that can be interesting for gsoc: improving NCI callback capabilities.
14:46 moritz or make NCI not dependent on a library that's hard to build on windows
14:46 NotFound I need a way to set callbacks for Guitor to handle X errors.
14:46 whiteknight yes, a new callback system that used the power of the new threads would be awesome
14:47 whiteknight if our scheduler is good, it can pause the current thread, execute the callback, then resume the thread
14:47 NotFound Yes, but the hard part is doing callbacks without PMC-able parameters.
15:07 whiteknight you'd have to wrap them in something
15:20 dmalcolm joined #parrot
15:25 rich joined #parrot
15:26 rich hey i'm playing around with PCT and I dont understand what || should mean in this context: [ $ || <.panic: "Syntax error"> ]
15:26 rich is it double | ?
15:27 benabik It's alternation.
15:27 benabik In p6 rules, | matches whichever is longest and || tries each one in turn.
15:28 rich ok thx
15:28 benabik I'm not sure nqp-rx actually implements that, but that's the syntax.
15:28 moritz correct
15:29 rich what about the python aka pynie for parrot? it seems it is orphaned?
15:29 moritz it is
15:57 whiteknight rich: there were a few interested developers, but it never reached a self-sustaining critical mass
16:02 NotFound The funny thing is that critical mass seems to be around 1.
16:03 rich :D
16:04 rich so how complete is it?
16:05 NotFound Blaming mode on. I mean, usually some people say "I'm very interested in X", but don't have enough interest on X to keep looking on it even for a few monts.
16:08 benabik Critical mass is about 1, but very few people provide an entire person.
16:10 moritz looking isn't the problem. Working on it is :-)
16:15 NotFound Yeah, but if they don't even look...
16:15 whiteknight rich: I have no idea, to be honest
16:16 whiteknight rich: a big part of the shortcoming of pynie was the object model of it, which doesn't quite match python semantics and was holding back implementation of any kind of standard library
16:18 dukeleto ~~
16:18 rich hm, i'm not that experienced building compiler... can you explain that in a little more detail?
16:18 dukeleto rich: there is an example language called squaak
16:18 rich well i did that tutorial
16:19 rich and also we have some lectures in univercity
16:19 dukeleto rich: ok.
16:19 benabik rich: Parrot's idea of an object is slightly different than Python's idea of an object.  The incompatibilities made it difficult to work on building the normal Python libraries.
16:19 dukeleto rich: what part do you have questions about? which language are you using?
16:20 dukeleto rich: right now, people can use Winxed, PIR and various flavors of NQP to write a high level language (HLL)
16:20 dukeleto rich: or you can roll everything yourself :) But that isn't for the faint of heart.
16:21 rich dukeleto: hm well i was thinking to create a subset of python or something similar (cause i like the lang) to get myself confortable with parrot. cause pynie looks quite orphaned i was wondering why
16:21 jsut_ joined #parrot
16:22 rich benabik: do you think to get the stdlib working with parrot?
16:22 rich or is it just not worth the effort?
16:23 whiteknight rich: do you happen to be a college student?
16:23 sorear hey Infinoid
16:23 benabik rich: I think it should be possible to get Python objects working on Parrot.  Not simple though.  One of the reasons I keep bringing up putting 6model in core is because it would simplify things immensely.
16:23 rich whiteknight: y
16:24 whiteknight rich: might you be interested in working on a python compiler for Parrot for GSOC this summer?
16:24 NotFound whiteknight: You haven't made a pull request for that patch?
16:24 whiteknight NotFound: not yet
16:24 whiteknight NotFound: I will now
16:24 NotFound Ah, I misunderstood it was one.
16:25 dukeleto rich: have you seen puffin? That is a newer relative of pynie
16:25 dukeleto rich: but still, both are blocked by a better meta object protocol being in parrot core
16:25 rich whiteknight: hm sounds good
16:26 dukeleto rich: so the plan is to borrow 6model from the perl 6 core, but 6model is still a moving target...
16:26 rich dukeleto: not yet ill check it out
16:26 whiteknight NotFound: Can't make the pull request, I have another garbage commit in there that I need to remove first
16:26 whiteknight dukeleto: It's not moving so far so fast
16:26 NotFound A doubt: Why they need it to be in core? Can't they load 6model?
16:26 whiteknight NotFound: Yes, we can do that
16:26 benabik NotFound: Incompatibilities between 6model world and PMC land.
16:27 whiteknight NotFound: A python compiler probably should do that, at this point
16:27 NotFound whiteknight: NP, I'll get the patch.
16:27 whiteknight NotFound++
16:28 NotFound benabik: Such incompatibilities doesn't seem to block rakudo.
16:28 benabik NotFound: Because rakudo only works with rakudo-land.  I'd like to at least try to have a world where our languages can work together.
16:29 benabik NotFound: Things can go slightly sideways in Rakudo if a raw PMC gets handed back to the "user".
16:30 * NotFound is tempted to steal 6model code and call it funmodel
16:30 whiteknight benabik: That's Rakudo. They use all sorts of object context and metaobjects to control things. A Python compiler wouldn't make any of those assumptions
16:30 dukeleto Github v1 and v2 API are going away soon: https://github.com/blog/1090-github-api-moving-on
16:30 dukeleto will that affect any of our bots?
16:31 NotFound Or even better, call it topmodel
16:31 dukeleto NotFound: funmodel++
16:33 benabik Really, in the end, I think that 6model is a more flexible, more useful object model.  So rather than hang onto PMCs, it would be better for Parrot in the long run to adopt it.
16:33 benabik Also, I'm relatively certain that we could adapt the existing PMC model to work within it for compatability.
16:33 * benabik sighs.
16:34 benabik Now I'm tempted to do that for GSoC.  But I wanted to work on my shiny.
16:34 whiteknight benabik: There's nobody saying you can't do both...
16:34 benabik whiteknight: I think thesis, baby, PACT, and 6model would be a bit too much.
16:37 whiteknight benabik: if you had asked me a few months ago, I would have told you to hold off on the baby :)
16:38 benabik whiteknight: :-P
16:39 NotFound Hell... there wasn't a way to get a commit's diff from gihib?
16:39 whiteknight I could have taken a dose of that medicine myself. I don't think anybody is ever quite prepared for it
16:40 whiteknight NotFound: I think it's x..y in the url
16:41 dukeleto benabik: we need a transition plan where PMCs boil down to "funmodel" or whatever parrot core will call it
16:41 dukeleto NotFound: of course there is
16:42 benabik dukeleto: Import 6model.  Create a PMC_HOW and PMC_REPR that forwards the 6model bits to the appropriate PMC bits.  Migrate our defaults from PMC to 6model.
16:43 * benabik sees little point in changing the name.
16:43 whiteknight benabik: yeah, that's my general plan for it
16:43 whiteknight I want the import 6model into core, in parallel with our existing model, then start slowly eating away at the old version
16:44 benabik It doesn't seem terribly difficult to me, but there is a fair amount of "SMOP" in there.
16:44 whiteknight every now and then I'll enter into a fit of uncontrollable rage and delete a whole file of old code
16:45 dukeleto benabik: sounds like a good gsoc proposal ....
16:45 dukeleto NotFound: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/branches
16:46 dukeleto NotFound: there is a "compare" button on the righthand side of all the branch names
16:46 dukeleto Does anybody have a problem with me merging this branch? https://github.com/parrot/parrot/​compare/master...gh363%2Fdlclose
16:47 dukeleto It works fine on Linux, and it isn't getting tested enough on the lonely branch. It should remove the need for a custom patch for the netbsd people
16:47 whiteknight dukeleto: let me look
16:47 whiteknight dukeleto: looks swell to me
16:47 dukeleto whiteknight: hokey dokey
16:48 NotFound Note that in some platforms (hp-ux for example) dlclosing is not refocounted. Don't know if we support such.
16:49 contingencyplan joined #parrot
16:49 bacek_ joined #parrot
16:49 NotFound For example, you can nicely kill the program by dlclosing C std.
16:51 dukeleto NotFound: not sure we support HPUX
16:51 dukeleto NotFound: and if an HPUX user sends a patch, I will gladly code review it :)
16:51 NotFound dukeleto: I think it was ten years ago the last time I used hpux.
16:53 NotFound Got it! It was just adding ".patch" to the commit url.
16:53 dukeleto NotFound: ah, yes. You can add .diff too
16:55 benabik .patch includes the commit message, I think.
17:02 dukeleto NotFound: yes, .patch is the actual git patch with author info, .diff is just a diff that can be given to straight up "patch"
17:17 NotFound whiteknight: applied, tested, and snapshot updated
17:17 whiteknight NotFound++
17:50 whiteknight joined #parrot
17:50 whiteknight I sent a message about GSOC to some of my old professors, to pass along to interested students
17:50 whiteknight They clearly didn't read the FAQ, and seemed to fundamentally misunderstand what the program is about
17:51 whiteknight so now I'm getting emailed things that are essentially grant applications from students for their academic work
17:52 whiteknight ...which is kind of interesting to see what kinds of projects students are working on over there, but not exactly what GSOC is all about
17:59 whiteknight I may have to just go over there one day and give an in-person presentation about it, to prevent misunderstandings
17:59 PerlJam whiteknight: that's okay, I send info about gsoc to the local csclub every year and so far I've gotten approximately 1 response of "what's this?" and that's about it.
18:00 whiteknight I don't understand how more people don't get more excited about this kind of opportunity
18:00 whiteknight it's like a paid internship, where you work from your house on a real-world software development team
18:02 PerlJam too many unknowns
18:02 whiteknight if I were still in college, I would be jumping up and down like a coked-up chihuahua
18:03 tadzik most of the people I've told do act like this :)
18:03 tadzik mostly due to OMG GOOGLE MONEY FOR SITTING AT HOME
18:03 PerlJam If there's not already involves with an open source project, they have to jump the hurdle of participation in something they currently know nothing about.
18:03 PerlJam s/there's/they're/
18:03 PerlJam *involved
18:04 NotFound Thinking about some people I frequented years ago, probably many think they are going to steal his incredible powerful, original and high valuable ideas.
18:05 NotFound I sometimes sees some like that on irc. They ask naive doubts about trivial programming tasks, and refuse to show the code because we can steal it!
18:05 whiteknight I've gotten lots of emails from students so far. I haven't received too many follow-ups yet though
18:07 PerlJam NotFound: insane people aren't useful anyway :)
18:08 NotFound PerlJam: they are useful! They make me smile in boring days :)
18:17 nine CORE.setting++ # gives me much time to catch up with the day's chatter
18:18 tadzik :)
18:26 nine whiteknight: removing orig_interp from the PMC header gets me back to 2.47% slowdown compared to master with signficance 7.9σ
18:26 whiteknight nine: Yeah, we know we have to find a better way to do that
18:27 nine whiteknight: I recycled an interp flag to tell the GC to flag newly created PMCs while doing a proxied call.
18:28 nine whiteknight: so apart from being very convenient for my assertions, I don't need the orig_interp anymore
18:28 whiteknight nine: okay, that's cool
18:28 whiteknight okay, add it under an #ifdef THREAD_DEBUG block
18:29 whiteknight or #ifndef NDEBUG
18:29 nine whiteknight: still not exactly sure where the slowdown is coming from. Will do a new benchmark run on master to see if it's just some fluke in my benchmarking setup
18:29 whiteknight so that you can have it when you want it, and not in an optimized deployment
18:31 jashwanth dukeleto:hello
18:37 whiteknight dukeleto: ping
18:37 whiteknight msg dukeleto jashwanth is the prospective GSOC student I was telling you about who wants to work on PLA. You two should be introduced
18:37 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
18:38 whiteknight msg jashwanth aloha is a bot who delivers messages
18:38 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
18:46 dukeleto whiteknight: pong
18:46 dukeleto jashwanth: howdy
18:47 NotFound Talking about bots, what happened to dalek?
18:47 whiteknight NotFound: off to the great electromagnet in the sky
18:47 whiteknight Actually, I have no idea. Where is that damned bot
18:47 benabik It went missing yesterday.  Haven't seen a reason yet.
18:48 nine it quit after a series of commits by bacek++
18:48 whiteknight it has a lot of trouble with large lists of commits
18:48 tadzik there's no room for two robots on a channel it'd seem
18:49 whiteknight One of the next projects I want to work on is an IRC client library for making bots
18:50 whiteknight then we can write all our infrastructure droids in pure parrot
18:51 rich left #parrot
18:51 whiteknight I really want a bot that has commands to update and recompile its own sourcecode
18:52 whiteknight We're going to need to majorly redo namespaces before that is possible
18:53 whiteknight and maybe security sandboxing
18:53 whiteknight Oooh! That would make a great GSOC project!
19:31 whiteknight What I really need to do is keep track of project ideas so we can reuse the good ones next year
19:32 benabik whiteknight: Isn't that what the wiki is for?  :-D
19:32 whiteknight well, yes
19:32 whiteknight but...shaddap
19:33 whiteknight I also need to keep better track of which projects get done each year. We don't have anything like a hall of fame with information about completed projects
19:35 dukeleto whiteknight: sounds like a nice page for parrot.github.com
19:56 nine whiteknight: seems like the benchmark somehow sucks. I get too high variation for conclusive results.
20:01 whiteknight nine: Okay, so assume a bias in your favor and call it a victory
20:02 moritz the mandelbrot benchmark?
20:05 jsut joined #parrot
20:23 Coke I forwarded whiteknight's blogpost to RPI's open source maven.
20:23 Coke (re GSOC 2012)
20:28 whiteknight which blogpost?
20:31 whiteknight actually, I'll find out later. I have to go home now.
20:35 Coke "we're in"
22:55 bacek_at_work ~~
22:55 bacek_at_work aloha, humans
22:55 bacek_at_work seen dalek
22:55 aloha dalek was last seen in #parrot 1 days 10 hours ago saying "parrot/pcc_reorder: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/d3630a9ae9".
22:55 bacek_at_work Did I kill dalek?
23:00 dukeleto bacek_at_work: yes
23:00 bacek_at_work dukeleto, sigh...
23:01 bacek_at_work How hard is to implement github commits announce in aloha? Mmmm... Tempting
23:06 whiteknight joined #parrot
23:10 whiteknight good evening, #parrot
23:48 perlite_ joined #parrot
23:50 dukeleto whiteknight: wazzup
23:50 dukeleto whiteknight: what is your take on the gsoc student email on parrot-dev? It needs a lot more beef.
23:51 dukeleto whiteknight: do you have a specific PLA task that needs doing?
23:51 dukeleto whiteknight: also, can you maybe give parrot-dev a "state of the PLA" ? It hasn't seen much love lately and I am unsure what still needs doing.

| Channels | #parrot index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Parrot | source cross referenced