Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2012-04-10

Parrot | source cross referenced

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:14 whiteknight these timing numbers don't make any sense to me
00:17 whiteknight at one iteration, the times are the same. At 10-1000 iterations the old algorithm is 3-5 times faster (not growing in a monotonic way) Over 10000 the new algorithm is a hundred times faster or more
00:19 whiteknight actually, that last number is a fluke. It's only about 8 times faster
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00:32 dukeleto bugs bugs bugs bugs BUGS!
00:36 Coke /away
00:44 dalek parrot: 486331d | Whiteknight++ | src/ (2 files):
00:44 dalek parrot: Implement StringBuilder.push_integer vtable, so we can assemble strings by pushing raw codepoints instead of needing to first create a 1-character string (chr_s_i) and then pushing that string to the StringBuilder
00:44 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/486331d1a8
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00:51 bacek_at_work msg whiteknight your last commit is really really wrong. Converting string in-place is braking our promise about immutable strings. And underlying buffer can be shared between various strings.
00:51 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
00:52 benabik bacek_at_work: Isn't StringBuilder specifically designed for mutable strings?
00:53 bacek_at_work benabik, yes it is.
00:54 bacek_at_work Ah. We are cloning string in get_string VTABLE.
00:54 bacek_at_work msg whiteknight Ignore it. benabik++ pointed out my mistake.
00:54 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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01:07 travis-ci [travis-ci] parrot/parrot#242 (master - 486331d : Whiteknight): The build was fixed.
01:07 travis-ci [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/parrot/par​rot/compare/28e0dd3...486331d
01:07 travis-ci [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/parrot/parrot/builds/1053488
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02:46 dalek parrot: 17a886a | jkeenan++ | src/pmc/stringbuilder.pmc:
02:46 dalek parrot: [codingstd] Make src/pmc/stringbuilder.pmc pass c_arg_assert.t.
02:46 dalek parrot:
02:46 dalek parrot: But it's failing pmc_docs.t because no one added documentation for a new
02:46 dalek parrot: function!
02:46 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/17a886a291
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12:30 tadzik benabik++++
12:30 tadzik (proposals)
12:41 masak url?
12:41 tadzik http://whiteknight.github.com/2012/​04/09/received_gsoc_proposals.html
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12:44 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 4.2.0 "Ornithopter" | http://parrot.org | Log: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot | #parrotsketch meeting Tuesday 19:30 UTC
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13:06 whiteknight good morning, #parrot
13:07 masak morgningz, whiteknight
13:07 whiteknight hello masak
13:08 tadzik 'ello whiteknight
13:08 whiteknight hello tadzik
13:08 whiteknight Here's an extremely interesting (a little funny, a little sad) article about PHP: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04​/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
13:08 tadzik :)
13:09 whiteknight I've never seen another rant about PHP that was so complete
13:13 whiteknight it is funny just how many of those problems he mention have to do with functions and their naming/arguments/behaviors/bugs
13:14 whiteknight It really seems to me like a language with PHP syntax and a sane standard lib would be a major improvement
13:15 whiteknight Or PHP-similar syntax. We can fix stupid things like array() and empty() not being functions, or fix references, or make functions into first-class objects
13:15 whiteknight or make namespace syntax non-terrible
13:17 whiteknight Of course if you make all those changes you start getting towards a language which is almost Perl, minus most sigils, default variables and magical variables
13:17 whiteknight ...which is not a terrible thing to converge upon, methinks
13:17 JimmyZ that looks like "The UNIX- HATERS Handbook"
13:17 brrt or python, if you converge the other way
13:17 whiteknight JimmyZ: I've never seen that one
13:17 whiteknight brrt: Yeah, PHP really did borrow so much syntax from other places
13:18 whiteknight Perl was the really big influence, early on. C and Java too in varying amounts over time
13:19 brrt all languages, a bit
13:19 brrt i kind of agree with the author
13:19 brrt i just try to not think about it :-)
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13:20 whiteknight The problem is trying to separate out the different entities. The PHP interpreter, the apache integration, the standard library, the language syntax, etc
13:20 whiteknight I think there are definitely good things in there, and obviously new users pick up the language in droves for a variety of reasons
13:21 JimmyZ what I don't like is that PHP is more like java now.
13:22 whiteknight JimmyZ: I think what happens is that people see the impressive performance gains that Java has had over the years, and think that they can steal some of those ideas without understanding how they fit together
13:22 brrt php is really easy to set up
13:22 brrt there, you have it
13:22 whiteknight brrt: yes, that's a big deal
13:22 brrt and really really easy to connect to mysql
13:22 brrt which explains the popularity of that db, too :-)
13:22 whiteknight brrt: I would love it one day if a mod_parrot was just as easy to set up. A few apt-get calls, set up some paths, and upload a few scripts
13:22 * brrt too
13:23 brrt especially as i am in fact pretty lazy as far as setting up servers goes
13:23 whiteknight a default config file with some get-started-fast settings already prepared for a debian distro (for example) would go a long way
13:24 whiteknight whitelist /var/www/parrot/ by default, dump some scripts there, get started fast
13:24 brrt yeah, we should do that
13:25 * JimmyZ hopes someone will reveiw his M0 code
13:27 benabik o/ #parrot
13:29 whiteknight hello benabik
13:29 brrt hello
13:29 whiteknight brrt: I had very high hopes for a rewritten PHP6, but it seems like that is stalled
13:30 Coke whiteknight: on parrot, or standalone?
13:30 brrt yes, i believe so too
13:30 brrt people printed books about php6
13:32 benabik "There is no threading support whatsoever."  That's not really in PHP's problem domain.  Trying to do threading on top of your web server's threading is probably not a good idea.
13:32 brrt benabik: good point actually, i was wondering about w/ regards to mod_parrot]
13:33 brrt although i do not entirely agree
13:33 nine My webserver doesn't do threading. It uses processes for dynamic content. Being able to use quick threads for speeding up single requests would be awesome.
13:33 brrt threading would be very useful sometimes
13:33 brrt as in, 'lets start a thread to resize this image'
13:34 benabik brrt: Better: send an IMG tag to the user and let that request resize it.
13:34 brrt benabik: no, wrong :-p
13:35 brrt either you use caching of resized files
13:35 brrt and a malicious user can blow up your server by requesting a billion different formats
13:35 brrt or, you do not use caching
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13:35 brrt and a malicious user can blow up your server by requesting only a million different formats simultaneously
13:36 benabik If you expose completely free-form image converting, yes.
13:36 whiteknight Coke: I've never heard any of the PHP core devs talk about using Parrot as an option
13:36 whiteknight Coke: Obviously I would love to see a PHP 6 on Parrot
13:37 benabik brrt: But really, a thread inside your web server is not the place to do that IMHO, esp if the resize might take longer than the original request.  Use backend workers or something.
13:38 brrt benabik: that is really a pros-and-cons thing
13:38 Coke whiteknight: it was a parrot pipe dream at some point.
13:38 Coke much like my coldfusion version.
13:38 brrt especially since php doesn't do fork, just exec()
13:39 Coke but without mod_parrot and easy DBI, I think both PHP and CF suffer from the same problem.
13:40 brrt i kind of agree that having a billion threads w/o clear rules on when they should be killed is a nightmare for a webserver
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14:06 dalek rakudo/nom: b8fdbea | moritz++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
14:06 dalek rakudo/nom: Date.new should not die with LTA error
14:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b8fdbeaa1a
14:26 PerlJam whiteknight: The link to the GSOC website at the end of your post is broken btw.  It goes to http://whiteknight.github.com/20​12/04/09/www.google-melange.com
14:27 whiteknight blah
14:27 whiteknight detection of relative urls is poor
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15:11 dukeleto ~~
15:12 dukeleto this looks interesting: https://github.com/GaloisInc/HaLVM
15:13 dukeleto msg whiteknight: this might be useful for PLA: https://github.com/fredrik-johansson/flint2
15:13 aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
15:13 whiteknight I'll take a look in a bit
15:14 dukeleto whiteknight: it is number theory though
15:14 whiteknight OH NOES SHIELD ME FROM IT
15:14 dukeleto whiteknight: it is definitely useful for matrixy
15:14 dukeleto whiteknight: my first loan fell through and now I am scrambling to make another happen. Fun!
15:15 * dukeleto preps for $work
15:15 whiteknight dukeleto: Damn!
15:16 benabik Github has enabled syntax highlighting for the DCPU-16 from 0x10c
15:16 atrodo https://github.com/blog/1098-ta​ke-over-the-galaxy-with-github This has taken of surprisingly quickly
15:16 atrodo benabik> Haha
15:16 benabik atrodo: I guess you also follow their twitter, hm?
15:17 atrodo benabik> You would be correct
15:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 32c674e | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
15:24 dalek rakudo/nom: Backtrace.nice can now produce single lines
15:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/32c674ee46
16:12 dalek rakudo/nom: edfd0f2 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
16:12 dalek rakudo/nom: [World] avoid a lookup for which we already have a variable
16:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/edfd0f216f
16:12 dalek rakudo/nom: 8144a04 | moritz++ | src/ (3 files):
16:12 dalek rakudo/nom: implement Routine.package
16:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8144a04637
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16:21 dalek rakudo/nom: 72e8fe8 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
16:21 dalek rakudo/nom: [World] further cleanup by spider-mario++
16:21 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/72e8fe8c0f
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18:52 dukeleto ~~
18:52 whiteknight hello dukeleot
18:52 whiteknight or dukeleto
18:52 dukeleto whiteknight: howdy
18:56 whiteknight sucks about your loan. the bank 'tis a fickle mistress
18:56 whiteknight if you need a burning paper bag of human waste left on somebody's doorstepp, prvmsg me
18:57 whiteknight I suspect USPS will hassle me about the shipping, however
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20:22 dukeleto whiteknight: :)
20:34 dalek parrot: 63c15b7 | NotFound++ | src/platform/generic/dl.c:
20:34 dalek parrot: POD for static helper functions
20:34 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/63c15b7216
20:34 dalek parrot: ee4c8c9 | NotFound++ | src/pmc/stringbuilder.pmc:
20:34 dalek parrot: add function POD and argument decorators to calculate_capacity
20:34 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/ee4c8c90ea
21:09 dalek rakudo/nom: 4bacf1a | moritz++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
21:09 dalek rakudo/nom: add line numbers for warnings
21:09 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:09 dalek rakudo/nom: does not yet do the right things for warnings thrown from inside the setting, but warn() calls should be fine
21:09 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4bacf1a635
21:25 dalek rakudo/nom: fa2d53c | moritz++ | / (2 files):
21:25 dalek rakudo/nom: first shot at bringing Str.indent back
21:25 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fa2d53c30c
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22:21 alester Is there a list of GSOC proposals somehwere?
22:21 alester I've seen them whiz by and didn't think anything of it
22:22 dukeleto alester: i think you need to log into the melange website to view them
22:22 alester but then I thought "Oh wait, maybe there's cage stuff that people want to do and I could help"
22:22 benabik alester: http://whiteknight.github.com/2012/​04/09/received_gsoc_proposals.html
22:22 alester I don't know what the melange website is.
22:22 benabik www.google-melange.com
22:22 benabik You'd need to sign up to be a mentor to view the full proposals.  Although that doesn't commit you to anything.  :-)
22:25 alester ok, so everything there is outside of my ballpark.
22:25 alester Because I don't understand Parrot in the slightest. :-)
22:27 alester Well, I do.  I just don't know enough to do anything useful and forward-thinking.
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22:57 dalek parrot: 5f6ac7a | petdance++ | frontend/pbc_dump/packdump.c:
22:57 dalek parrot: Treat printed_flag_p like the boolean it is, rather than pretending it's a counter
22:57 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/5f6ac7a713
23:07 whiteknight good afternoon, #parrot
23:07 benabik o/ whiteknight
23:08 aloha (parrot/parrot) Issues opened : 755 (PackFile_pack_size returns the wrong type) by petdance : https://github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/755
23:09 whiteknight hello benabik
23:11 benabik oops, gtg
23:16 whiteknight I don't know if anybody else has ever heard of "Mari0", the "mario with portals" game
23:16 whiteknight but I think all my free time for the next few days has officially dried up
23:16 alester Is that part of the m0 branch?
23:16 whiteknight no, it's a game. Not parrot related
23:16 alester I know, I kid.
23:18 alester Besides, maybe if I joke about it I'll be kept from being tempted to go look and maybe download it and play it and OH MY GOD iT'S 3:15 IN THE MORNING WHY AM I STILL UP PLAYING THIS DAMN THING
23:18 alester (Not that that's happened in the past)
23:18 alester (week or two)
23:21 whiteknight what we need is an easy game-creation framework for Parrot
23:29 dukeleto whiteknight: go on...
23:29 dukeleto whiteknight: the SDLx:: namespace on CPAN is pretty interesting
23:33 whiteknight I don't have any concrete plans, but I
23:33 whiteknight 'm playng this game and I wish it were on parrot
23:41 dalek parrot: f17bd2d | petdance++ | src/packfile/api.c:
23:41 dalek parrot: Remove unnecessary cast
23:41 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f17bd2d30e
23:41 dalek parrot: 81d3c08 | petdance++ | / (3 files):
23:41 dalek parrot: adding more function annotations
23:41 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/81d3c0861c
23:51 nbrown hello parrot
23:57 whiteknight HELLO NBROWN
23:57 whiteknight sorry for yelling
23:57 nbrown no problem, it happens from time to time
23:58 whiteknight my kid hit the capslock
23:58 nbrown ha ha
23:59 nbrown I was hoping to find some m0 folks to talk to, but it seems pretty dead in here right now
23:59 whiteknight dukeleto was here
23:59 nbrown looks like I just missed him

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