Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrot, 2013-06-07

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05:24 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 5.4.0 "Austin Parrot" | http://parrot.org/ | Log: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot | #parrotsketch meeting Tuesday 19:30 UTC
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05:24 Topic for #parrot is now Parrot 5.4.0 "Austin Parrot" | http://parrot.org/ | Log: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot | #parrotsketch meeting Tuesday 19:30 UTC
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16:44 dukeleto ~~
16:44 benabik o/ dukeleto
16:44 dukeleto benabik: wazzup
16:44 dukeleto benabik: i saw a new parrot.git branch from you
16:44 benabik dukeleto: Pondering lunch.
16:45 * dukeleto is thinking about breakfast
16:45 benabik There was some discussion of compressing PBCs, so I gave it a half-hour hack.
16:45 * dukeleto is in some kind of superposition of timezones between PST and Central
16:45 dukeleto benabik: cool!
16:45 dukeleto benabik: what about parrot itself using fakecutables?
16:45 benabik After I finished I realized I wanted _library_ PBCs to be compressed and that involves tying gzip to the load_bytecode op.
16:46 dukeleto benabik: we could gzip the PBC and put it in a fakecutable, right?
16:46 dukeleto benabik: i am not against adding a gzip opcode or whatever you need to make it reasonable
16:46 dukeleto benabik: parrot needs big changes. Let's do interesting stuff. I am sick and tired of walking on eggshells
16:46 benabik Heh.
16:46 dukeleto Rakudo is actively moving away from Parrot. Let's break some shit.
16:47 dukeleto The silly deprecation cycle is essentially a noose around our throat and legs right now.
16:47 dukeleto the perl6/parrot/moarvm hackathon is happening now
16:47 PerlJam .oO( "now"?!? )
16:47 dukeleto but i am in my hotel room
16:47 * dukeleto lost a contact and is now a cyclops, because he forgot to bring any glasses or contacts
16:47 * benabik wishes he was there.
16:48 dukeleto benabik: i wish you were here in my place. A lot more would get done.
16:48 benabik Bah.
16:48 dukeleto benabik: MoaVM is the spiritual succesor to M0
16:48 dukeleto MoarVM, rather
16:48 dukeleto i took many pictures
16:48 dukeleto need to regurgitate them onto the interwebs
16:48 benabik MoarVM seems to match my list of "how I would improve/rewrite Parrot" to a ridiculous degree.
16:49 benabik Wash them first.  Ew.
16:49 benabik ;-)
16:49 dukeleto benabik: MoarVM is a VM specifically for NQP
16:49 dukeleto benabik: it uses many lessons from Parrot and other systems
16:49 Util benabik: I wrote (or rewrote) a lot of the fakeucutable process code. Adding g(un)zip sounds good, if there has been a call for it. Let me know how|if I can help.
16:49 dukeleto but I see a bright future for Parrot
16:50 dukeleto Util: oooh! I didn't know that, Util++
16:50 benabik The use case for gzip was the *.setting.pbc files from NQP/Rakudo.
16:50 benabik I think those are just called with load_bytecode, so that's where I'd try to hook it.
16:51 dukeleto why not bzip2? It is superior in every way, right?
16:51 benabik Although I suppose pervasive use of .gz wouldn't hurt.  We store a _lot_ of 8b ints in 32/64b space.
16:51 benabik Well, it started with "GzipHandle is already in Parrot".  :-D
16:51 dukeleto benabik: gotcha
16:52 dukeleto benabik: i thought fperrad wrote something that talked to bzip2 from parrot, but I could have dreamed that
16:52 Coke as an HLL author, I transitioned to nqp-rx (and am still in the middle of transitioning to nqp), so improved/faster/feature/whatever for nqp may still be a driving factor.
16:52 dukeleto Coke: what is that comment in response to? Just trying to understand.
16:52 benabik gzip compressing the setting _might_ be a speed improvement, although probably less so on an SSD.
16:53 * Util starts Hotel -> Hackathon commute
16:53 dukeleto benabik: most people don't have SSDs yet, so I would consider that a big win still
16:53 dukeleto Util: see you soon
16:53 Coke just catching up with general "yay moarvm but what does this mean for parrot" chat.
16:53 dukeleto Coke: cool
16:54 dukeleto i have many pics and notes to send to parrot-dev
16:54 dukeleto but I am essentially wiped out
16:54 PerlJam Coke: doesn't it mean nothing for parrot that moarvm "exists"?
16:54 dukeleto I think I was hit by an emotional bus yesterday. Just too many things going on.
16:54 dukeleto PerlJam: i would very much disagree that it means "nothing"
16:54 dukeleto PerlJam: it is an important development
16:54 dukeleto I am honored that MoarVM lovingly stole so many good ideas from Parrot.
16:55 dukeleto and I have told all the MoarVM peeps that they have my help when they need it.
16:55 dukeleto But I am excited about the non-Perl6 future of Parrot
16:55 dukeleto now that MoarVM exists, we don't have to worry about losing Rakudo as a customer
16:55 dukeleto THAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED
16:55 dukeleto Let's move on.
16:55 PerlJam dukeleto: oh, I see.
16:55 dukeleto I can find a new customer for Parrot. Somebody with a lot of $$$.
16:56 PerlJam dukeleto: I thought you were going to go the "healthy competition" route.
16:56 dukeleto If anybody has a problem with that, I humbly suggest they tap me on the shoulder in person, look into my eyes and tell me their darkness fears and wishes.
16:57 dukeleto PerlJam: healthy competition?
16:57 PerlJam dukeleto: VMs competing for Rakudo's attention makes them both better.
16:57 dukeleto PerlJam: nope
16:58 dukeleto PerlJam: but do what ye will
16:58 dukeleto As a current Parrot Foundation board member I can tell you that the future of Parrot is not Perl 6.
16:58 PerlJam So ... which language(s) does Parrot seek to serve?  Without the HLL, isn't Parrot kind of directionless?
16:59 dukeleto PerlJam: i don't care to argue with you and I will soon leave IRC
16:59 dukeleto PerlJam: either send some commits into parrot.git or I really don't care
16:59 * dukeleto doesn't care to argue anymore
16:59 PerlJam dukeleto: I'm not out to argue, just seeking understanding.
16:59 dukeleto PerlJam: same here.
17:00 dukeleto PerlJam: i think your questions are good, but perhaps you need to find the answer yourself.
17:00 dukeleto Or perhaps your question is nonsensical.
17:00 dukeleto bacek is not welcome in the Parrot community unless he can be civil.
17:00 dukeleto Just for reference.
17:01 dukeleto If anybody doesn't like that, too bad.
17:01 * dukeleto is done allowing negative people to poison communities
17:01 benabik dukeleto, our benevolent dictator?
17:01 dukeleto benabik: I don't know. I asked Larry for advice, but he only gives meta-advice
17:02 benabik Heh.  My dad does that:  Trys to tell people how to make the decisions he'd make rather than telling them what he'd do.
17:02 PerlJam sometimes meta-meta-advice  ;)
17:03 dukeleto I am not sure everyone in here knows, but Larry is currently battling cancer. He talked about it in his keynote.
17:03 dukeleto he will find out later this summer if things are good or bad
17:03 benabik :-/
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17:30 * Coke finds dukeleto's note about negative people ironical given the last email he saw from the duke.
17:30 Coke but i certainly prefer a positive community.
17:41 masak I think it's important to talk about things when there's a crisis. if you're seeking to emulate Larry, that's definitely what he is doing.
17:43 masak but I also won't linger on the subject; it's been ages since I made a commit ;)
17:44 gtodd did something bad happen at YAPC
17:45 gtodd I mean "bad" for parrot?
17:45 gtodd dukeleto: oh
17:45 * gtodd scrolled up
17:45 gtodd dukeleto: sheesh
17:49 sorear strictly speaking, moarvm happened over much of the last year and was released a week ago
17:49 sorear released from bondage...
17:50 masak it wasn't *released*.
17:50 masak there hasn't been a moarvm release.
17:51 masak it was "unveiled" or "revealed".
18:02 Util gtodd: I think that *nothing* good about Parrot was said during *any* talk at this YAPC. I think that I attended all the talks that were likely to mention it.
18:02 Util PerlJam: Here is my perspective.
18:02 Util MoarVM is off to a strong start, and might someday completely replace Parrot's role as the Perl-community-owned backend for NQP&Rakudo.
18:02 Util (JVM/.Net/JS backends are great, but we will always need a backend of our own)
18:02 Util However, MoarVM is high-risk in several (undiscussed) ways.
18:02 Util (...He said in a room full of MoarVM hackers)
18:02 Util I, for one, will stay-the-course with Parrot, serving the needs of NQP and Rakudo, stealing ideas from MoarVM, unless&until MoarVM *actually* supplants Parrot.
18:02 Util dukeleto and other board members have a larger/longer-term vision than I on the matter of the future of Parrot. In the short-term, I (and other Parrot contributors) continue to make improvements.
18:04 gtodd there seem to have been a few vms and probably more to come.. that  might be good?
18:04 dalek parrot: f40728a | coke++ | docs/project/release_manager_guide.pod:
18:04 dalek parrot: remove ponie-era relic
18:04 dalek parrot: review: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/f40728af7e
18:09 Util gtodd: I wish MoarVM, and P2, and Moe, all the best. I may even lend a hand; MoarVM looks really cool, and Moe is in SCALA!. We just can't wait on them, and the tension to do so is bubbling up in some slightly contentious ways. It *is* good, quite good overall, to have this plethora; just not good for everybody in every way.
18:10 masak Util: I can stand by that.
18:10 gtodd I'm just someone who just wants to use perl6 all over the place ... so ... moarvm moe lua p2 are all cool but parrot seems ahead in practical terms like using perl6
18:11 masak aye.
18:11 Util For example, some MoarVM people *could* be working on Parrot. If fact, some *did* in the past. Does the loss of those people make me happy, from a Parrot perspective? Of course not; I ache for their loss. But I will not pretend that they should return to Parrot, nor that their new efforts are in any way a waste.
18:11 gtodd but if they borrow amongst themselves  via liberal licenses and friendly competition then yay!
18:12 gtodd Util: well put ...
18:15 masak "open source is not a zero-sum game. it is a positive-sum game!" -- someone, I don't remember who, at YAPC::NA
18:16 Util gtodd: Borrowing is great, but does not happen without effort. Nor without knowledge, for that matter. jnthn described some awesome lock-free tactics he uses in MoarVM. *I* am not qualified to retrofit them into Parrot; hopefully an active Parrot contributor *is*, but the fewer people are working on Parrot, the longer such borrowing will take.
18:17 gtodd I have to say I like the potion/p2 website :-P
18:17 Util masak: True! Unfortunately, it is not an infinite-sum game :)
18:18 gtodd Util: yeah mulitiple VMs != TIMTOWDI
18:19 PerlJam masak: Whoever said that (and I don't actually remember who) reminded me of the talk that Clay Shirky did about "Open Source is Love" or whatever and then Larry (and others) actually *said* it.
18:20 masak well, in some sense it's Darwinian evolution. the genotypes survive whose phenotypes have utility.
18:20 masak PerlJam: I have not seen Clay Shirky's talk, I think.
18:21 Util Stevan Little pointed out that supporting a JVM backend opens up whole *worlds* to us. Phones, JVM-only shops, all the classfiles only implemented on JVM, etc. People are *scared* of fragmentation; I heard it repeatedly during YAPC. They don't understand that frag is the price of sufficiently-fast evolution today.
18:23 PerlJam masak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs
18:24 Util Personally, I can't stand the taste of the fragmentation; the single implementation of `perl` has been a point of strength in my own career. I recognize the need for the dispora, though, and will do my best to be a positive voice for it.
18:24 PerlJam Util++
18:25 gtodd so we shouldn't fear fragmentation ... cuz we can fix it later with ... perl
18:26 dalek nqp: 3887f45 | sorear++ | src/vm/jvm/ (2 files):
18:26 dalek nqp: Fix compilation of \n on JVM
18:26 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3887f453e4
18:26 masak Util: really, the trick isn't going out and exploring, as many are doing. the trick is coming back and usefully reintegrating the findings in the mainline community.
18:27 masak Util: the parallel with git and branching/merging is striking. and not a coincidence, of course, since it's the same kind of thing going on.
18:27 masak Util: if we as a community can make subcommunity merging a solved problem, then we'll really have something.
18:27 Util masak: Good point
18:27 PerlJam masak: indeed.
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18:38 Coke (jvm) my main reason for supporting it is because it's the only way I will ever be able to perl for work.
18:39 darbelo Ah. Good ol' "Use what you want, so long as it can run on the JVM"
18:39 Coke exactly. :|
18:39 sorear Coke: down to 3 failures in the nqp test suite for jvm
18:39 Coke We're about 50/50 Java/ColdFusion here. I think one group bothered to try out groovy - but everything has to run in an j2ee container.
18:40 Coke sorear++
18:40 sorear that's been my hackathon project
18:41 Coke awesome.
18:42 darbelo I thought they had killed ColdFusion some time ago. I might be confusing it with something else.
18:43 Coke <cfquery name="stuff">select * from dual</cfquery><cfdump var="#stuff#">
18:43 Coke darbelo: I've been doing CF on and off since CF4 or so.
18:44 Coke I had a dream once of getting it running on parrot.
18:44 darbelo Not nightmare?
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18:45 Util Coke & darbelo: (jvm) exactly! Coke's situation is a lot more common than I had known before Stevan enlightened us.
18:47 Util go, sorear, go!
18:48 darbelo I've had to deal with people who absolutely *did not care* if you wrote the code in a dead basic dialect from the 70s, so long as they could deploy it as a WAR file.
18:48 benabik WAR?
18:49 Coke j2ee deployment file format.
18:49 Coke it's a basically a zip of zips with some special files in
18:49 benabik Sounds like "fun"
18:50 sorear do they care how big the WAR file is?
18:51 sorear if we have a 30-MB JRakudo...
18:51 Coke 30MB is pretty small, relatively speaking.
18:51 Coke I'd be more worried about memory utilization.
18:52 gtodd did the scala MOE person give a talk at YAPC::NA?
18:52 gtodd oops found it
18:53 sorear you mean stevan?
18:53 gtodd yeah :)
18:53 gtodd sorry heh
18:54 gtodd well known for some object thingie ;-)
18:55 sorear yeah, he's around.
18:55 sorear don't remember if he actually gave a talk, but I've talked to him plenty :)
18:55 sorear sartak's also here.
18:55 PerlJam he gave at least 2 talks
18:55 sorear doy's busy getting married
18:56 PerlJam sartak already left.  He did the advanced moose class this morning and then headed for the airport before lunch
18:56 darbelo sorear: (JRakudo WAR) You'd need to buy into (read implement) the servlet API and other environment stuff as well, but as Coke said, 30MB is not much on the Java world.
19:00 Coke darbelo: I would love to end up with SixMojo or something I can run at work.
19:02 darbelo I haven't done anything web on Java in quite a while. You could say I've moved to a different ghetto :)
19:03 * darbelo is doing mobile apps this days.
19:07 gtodd I guess the talk on Moe was somewhere else ...
19:27 gtodd Moe sounds neat esp. if is it true that scala can be built and run with LLVM etc
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19:50 dalek rakudo/nom: d690ac6 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
19:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Implement the whole list of valid adverb combinations from S02:2533
19:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d690ac6e39
20:02 dalek nqp: 3382c85 | sorear++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:
20:03 dalek nqp: Use a more correct definition of CCLASS_WHITESPACE for the JVM
20:03 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3382c8576b
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20:22 dalek rakudo/nom: e769409 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
20:22 dalek rakudo/nom: Need to revert xor logic to be correct
20:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e769409f42
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21:15 dalek nqp: 527419e | sorear++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/ (3 files):
21:15 dalek nqp: Allow flattening native-typed arrays into argument lists on JVM
21:15 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/527419e323
21:22 Coke Should we stop sending rakudo commit messages here?
21:23 Coke (and or nqp?)
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21:35 PerlJam Coke: seems reasonable (to stop) to me.
21:43 darbelo Did we stop sending commits from other HLLs or did we just stop committing to other HLLs?
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: 0dceace | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Bool.pm:
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: Booleanify ?^, as discussed with Pm
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: As shown at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-06-07#i_7170609
21:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0dceace674
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