Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2008-12-02

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Time Nick Message
04:14 jimmy joined #parrotsketch
04:16 jimmy My mind is  that parrot can support documentation i18n officially. Ask cotto for more information.
04:17 jimmy left #parrotsketch
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10:02 particle joined #parrotsketch
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14:45 jimmy joined #parrotsketch
14:45 jimmy irclog?
14:46 Topic for #parrotsketchis now IRCLOG:http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/today
14:48 Topic for #parrotsketchis now Parrotsktech Every Tuesday. irclog at:http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/today
14:48 jimmy left #parrotsketch
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14:50 Topic for #parrotsketchis now Parrotsktech Every Tuesday | irc log:http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/today
14:50 Topic for #parrotsketchis now Parrotsktech Every Tuesday | irc log at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/today
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18:06 Infinoid joined #parrotsketch
18:07 Infinoid *lurk*
18:15 PerlJam you lurk loudly.  :)
18:18 Wknight8111 he's just practicing
18:18 * Infinoid has not yet attained his stealth merit badge
18:19 PerlJam this is the most talking I've done here ever I think  :)
18:29 masak joined #parrotsketch
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18:30 barney joined #parrotsketch
18:30 cotto joined #parrotsketch
18:30 kj joined #parrotsketch
18:30 Coke joined #parrotsketch
18:31 * Coke ~~
18:32 masak =$*IN
18:32 * Tene here maybe in 10 minutes.
18:32 cotto hi
18:32 barney Hello
18:33 kj hello
18:33 jhorwitz hola
18:33 allison hi
18:33 Coke Alrightee. I can take the gavel, I suppose.
18:33 Coke reverscibetical; Wknight8111?
18:34 Coke I presume TimToady is just lurking... tewk?
18:34 Wknight8111 * Fumbled around more on the calling_conventions branch, didn't make any progress
18:34 Wknight8111 * Putting it on the back-burner for now
18:34 Wknight8111 * Did some more update work on [Book]
18:34 Wknight8111 EOR
18:34 Coke Thanks, wk.
18:34 Wknight8111 no prob, coke
18:35 Coke I know working on the book is a thankless task, so i won't thank you. =-)
18:35 Coke (too late). Tewk?
18:35 tewk subid loading is working.
18:35 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
18:35 tewk see parrot backlog for issues and shortcuts.
18:36 tewk helped kj get basicbc generation working in pirc.
18:36 tewk EOR
18:36 kj tewk++
18:36 tewk subid lookup, still not checked in though.
18:36 Coke ok. just don't get hit by a bus.
18:36 Coke tene?
18:38 Coke spinclad?
18:39 Coke (barring them, perljam?)
18:39 PerlJam just lurking as usual
18:39 Coke fair enough. partcl?
18:40 Coke (particle, in case he's waiting for a beep)
18:41 Wknight8111 the second-half of the alphabet is always so depressing around here. So few people with names M-Z
18:41 tewk particle: was headed to the dentist I believe
18:41 Coke masak?
18:41 masak * reported bugs as usual
18:41 masak * helped track down test failures
18:41 masak * lots and lots of November hacking
18:41 masak * Rakudo feels must stabler now, after the lexbug
18:41 masak EOR
18:41 Coke Danke. kj?
18:42 kj @tasks = (<<'PIRC', <<'OTHER', <<'QUESTIONS)
18:42 kj + basic bytecode emitting is working; working on a bcg api-like thingie.
18:42 kj PIRC
18:42 kj + spent the weekend in RT, trying to close tickets that I understand
18:42 kj OTHER
18:42 kj oh there's a syntax errror there. In any case, eor
18:42 Coke mmhehe.
18:42 Coke jhorwitz?
18:43 jhorwitz orked on mod_parrot roadmap and architecture docs.  posted on parrot wiki.  release 0.5 is one milestone away.
18:43 jhorwitz ^w
18:43 jhorwitz for threaded MPMs, interpreters are now bound to individual connections so we reuse the same interpreter throughout a request
18:43 jhorwitz made a tweak to allow HLL modules with no Apache directives.  this let me upgrade mod_pipp to the latest architecture.  while i was in there i added support for POST data now that mod_parrot handles that for us.
18:43 jhorwitz working on porting november to mod_perl6 -- one last hurdle to overcome.
18:43 jhorwitz EOR
18:43 Coke spif. japhb?
18:43 masak jhorwitz++
18:44 Coke integral ?
18:45 Coke Infinoid?
18:45 Infinoid Lurklurklurk.
18:45 Coke davidfetter ?
18:45 davidfetter ENOWORK :(
18:46 cotto same
18:46 Coke urk.
18:46 cotto q 1 q
18:46 Coke contingencyplan ?
18:47 pmichaud joined #parrotsketch
18:47 Coke my report:
18:47 Coke puts {half-heartedly poked at partcl, but getting parrot GC segfaults in trunk. [trac 10]};
18:47 Coke puts {some RT cleanups. We're now at 12 active trac tickets; 587 active RTs. (up to 91 stalled RTs, though.)}
18:47 Coke exit;
18:47 Coke chromatic ?
18:48 * pmichaud arrives, belatedly.
18:48 chromatic I profiled startup and moved some runtime creations to compile time; that sped things up slightly.
18:48 chromatic There's more to do there, specifically related to CONST_STRING.
18:48 chromatic I've gone through the Coverity reports and fixed or marked invalid all open tickets that they reported.  They should move us to tier2 (harder bugs) soon.
18:49 chromatic I fixed a couple of memory leaks.  One was in IMCC macros (horrible code) and the other in dynops.
18:49 chromatic I think there's still something wrong in the macro code, as kid51 has Darwin/PPC failures.  I'll look at that.
18:49 chromatic I cleaned up a couple of failures in Rakudo I created during that process.
18:49 chromatic Otherwise, I've been going through the SKIPs/TODOs in our tests and documenting them.
18:50 chromatic I'll write in my journal about the process.  It's really easy to get other people involved.
18:50 chromatic Mostly we just need to review them for applicability and make sure that every one has a ticket.
18:50 chromatic EOR
18:50 cotto q 1 more q
18:50 Coke barney?
18:50 barney [Pipp]
18:50 barney Added support for a return value for user defined functions.
18:50 barney Started on 'require_once'.
18:50 barney Applied some suggestions and patches from jimmy++
18:50 barney Bought book 'Extending and Embedding PHP'.
18:50 barney Will be busy in the next three weeks.
18:50 barney jhorwitz++
18:50 barney .eor
18:51 Coke pmichaud? #I'll let allison keep her a-list spot.
18:51 pmichaud == Parrot stuff
18:51 pmichaud : built some test cases for :subid and tewk++'s updates
18:51 pmichaud == PCT stuff
18:51 pmichaud : allows Integer/Float/String to appear directly in PAST
18:51 pmichaud == Rakudo stuff
18:51 pmichaud : fixed outer handling
18:51 pmichaud : added :g(lobal) to .subst method
18:52 pmichaud : added multi-bracket quotes and texas quotes
18:52 pmichaud : fixed prefix:<^> as in ^@list
18:52 pmichaud : fixed infix:<Z>
18:52 pmichaud : updated spectest reporting
18:52 pmichaud EOR
18:52 pmichaud queue 1 item
18:52 Coke danke; allison?
18:52 allison - Lots of small fixes on the I/O branch, resolving the final few failing tests. Have two more substantial bugs there.
18:52 allison - Ripped out the old I/O system from the branch, preparing for merge.
18:52 allison - Looked at the calling_conventions branch. We have one set of failures in the PCT tests (apparently context-related) before we can merge.
18:52 allison EOR
18:53 jhorwitz pmichaud++ # :g
18:53 Coke alright. Anyone who hasn't reported who wants to chime in before we move to questions?
18:53 Tene I haven't done anything.  I'm thinking of rewriting pheme wit hPCT this week.
18:53 Tene Thinking is cheap, though.
18:53 Tene .eor
18:54 Coke puts {half-heartedly poked at partcl, but getting parrot GC segfaults in trunk. [trac 10]};
18:54 Coke puts {some RT cleanups. We're now at 12 active trac tickets; 587 active RTs. (up to 91 stalled RTs, though.)}
18:54 Coke exit;
18:54 Coke contingencyplan integral japhb particle  samlh spinclad TimToady?
18:54 Coke whoops.
18:54 * Coke needs a "you already pasted that into this window. Are you sure you want to do it again? filter.)
18:54 chromatic That's a weird exit value.
18:55 Coke it's tcl, man.
18:55 Coke Alright, popping the question stack: pmichaud?
18:55 pmichaud https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotRoadmap has the things we expect to have done for the Dec release
18:55 pmichaud are we on track for each of those items, or do we need to see about adjusting?
18:56 pmichaud the dec release is two weeks from today.
18:56 chromatic nan/inf bothers me somewhat.  I'm not sure what that will take.
18:56 chromatic The exceptions milestone also seems risky.
18:56 pmichaud I'm particularly curious about opcode set/review/deprecation, should we have a special online item for that?
18:57 pmichaud or a call to the mailing list for suggestions?
18:57 Coke perhaps a combo wiki page/mailing list thread for that.
18:57 allison chromatic: the nan/inf was just a matter of updating the PDD based on the list discussion
18:57 chromatic It's probably a short Perl program which parses all opcodes and then skims everything in languages/ and t/ to find frequency.
18:58 pmichaud I'll start a thread for it.
18:58 pmichaud but I did want to see if others have issues.  Note that pct, loop+exceptions is somewhat blocked on resumable exceptions.
18:59 allison I beleive the pdd24 was just a review of the pdd to make sure it matches the current state of reality
18:59 pmichaud (that may be working now -- but we need to check.)
18:59 * Coke discovers his name is on some line items.
18:59 Tene pmichaud: I can work on that today/tonight
18:59 pmichaud in particular, I think at this point we really need to have a "lead person" listed for each item targeted for the Dec release.
19:00 pmichaud otherwise we'll start falling behind.
19:00 allison pmichaud: agreed
19:00 Tene That's a great idea.
19:00 pmichaud I'll take "opcode set".
19:00 Coke if there's any gaps at days end, I'll send out an email looking for volunteers.
19:00 Tene I'll take whatever I'm assigned.
19:00 Wknight8111 if I can get the calling_conventions thing resolved, I'll add my name to a line or two
19:01 allison Tene: how about exceptions debugging, since you were already started on that? (feel free to pull in others to answer questions or pinch-hit on pieces of the code)
19:01 Coke excellent. We'll revisit this on and off over the next week to make sure we stay on target.
19:01 pmichaud yes, we just need a "chief worrier" for the task -- that person doesn't necessarily have to do the work.
19:02 pmichaud who is doing the dec release?
19:02 Wknight8111 me
19:02 Wknight8111 and let's hope it isn't a disaster!
19:02 chromatic Read through it now.
19:02 allison pdd14 and pdd24 fall to me if no one else volunteers, but I'm very aware of the fact that it would mean I have more on my plate than can probably be finished by one person
19:03 chromatic You can do most of it beforehand.
19:03 chromatic I'll do pdd14 (numbers).
19:03 Tene What needs to be done with PDD24?
19:03 Coke what does the pdd involve?
19:03 Wknight8111 trust me, I've read things and read them again. And practiced.
19:03 allison chromatic: excellent, it's already started
19:04 allison Tene: pdd24 is just a review "does this match reality?"
19:04 pmichaud anyway, that's it for my q;   but q another for the end (time permitting)
19:04 Coke ok. let's followup details on the assignments in #parrot;
19:04 Tene I'll do pdd24.
19:04 allison Tene: for places that don't match, flag with a question and we can decide if reality should change or the PDD should change
19:04 Coke let's move onto one of cotto's questions.
19:04 allison Tene: excellent
19:04 cotto What plans do we have for allowing translation of Parrot's documentation?
19:04 cotto (no other questions)
19:04 Coke cotto: allowing? "feel free?"
19:05 allison cotto: the more translations the merrier
19:05 chromatic Let's tie that in with marketing.
19:05 Coke chromatic: +1
19:05 chromatic "We're getting ready to release.  We want Parrot docs in your language.  Can you help us help you?"
19:05 allison cotto: but, I think the deeper question, is what infrastructure we'll set up for hosting translations
19:05 Tene Who's going to edit the roadmap to add these assignments?
19:05 cotto allison, yes
19:06 Coke tene: you can edit it and claim your item(s)
19:06 * Tene checks to see if he has an account.
19:06 Coke a more fundamental question is what's the infrastructure for our canonical english documentation.
19:06 allison cotto: we don't have that set up yet, will set up when we start getting translation volunteers
19:07 Coke throw particle under that bus; I know he wanted to localize parrot itself.
19:07 allison cotto: I expect we'll take the infrastructure from an existing project, like Ubuntu/OpenOffice/Mozilla
19:07 Infinoid ah, JIT.
19:07 allison cotto: no need to reinvent the wheel on translations
19:08 cotto it'd be nice to have something in place for when the first person volunteers
19:08 allison Coke: yes, we need substantial cleanups to our English documentation
19:08 allison cotto: yes, it would, but then we'll have a better idea what we need once we start getting volunteers
19:08 Coke I'd throw our published authors under that bus if they weren't busy writing code.
19:08 chromatic and books
19:08 allison cotto: at the moment we'd just be shooting in the dark
19:08 cotto ok
19:09 Coke cotto: please open a trac ticket so we don't lose the task.
19:09 cotto will do
19:09 allison cotto: I don't expect we'll get 100 volunteers right at the start, more likely 1 or 2
19:09 cotto eoq
19:09 Coke ok, next. kj, you had a question?
19:09 kj Yes. regarding ticket 48737
19:09 kj .namespace <ident> /.endnamespace <ident>
19:10 kj the first attempt to implement scopes.
19:10 kj I had replied on that ticket, as the feature is deprecated.
19:10 kj My question then is:
19:10 kj is this feature totally useless, or can it be used as a cheap way of implementing scope ?
19:10 kj I'm fine either way
19:10 allison kj: totally useless
19:10 kj but just want to make sure we're not throwing out something
19:10 allison (unfortunately)
19:11 kj I was thinking about langauges that don't need closures
19:11 kj and therefor no lexpads
19:11 kj (such as C)
19:11 allison kj: we do need a lightweight scope feature, but that's not it
19:11 kj ok
19:11 kj that's clear then :-)
19:11 kj I'll contineu with ripping it out
19:11 kj .eoq
19:12 allison if you have thoughts on what we need, though, make a note and we'll add it to the feature request list
19:12 kj well it seems to me it's jsut straightforward now to generate PIR
19:12 kj with nested scopes, using these .namespace identifiers.
19:12 Coke I'm adding a Q to the stack.
19:13 kj but yeah, guess this is not it. Maybe it's a 1.5 or 2.0 feature anyway
19:13 kj not so important, compiler writers can implement it themselves as well.
19:13 Coke kj: all set?
19:13 kj yesh.
19:13 Coke pmichaud ?
19:14 pmichaud any word on when pdd30 might land?  I know it's slated for the Jan release, but rakudo is rapidly nearing the point where it might be useful to move it out of Parrot trunk.
19:14 pmichaud i.e., Parrot trunk changes are causing Rakudo breakages, so perhaps we need to de-sync them.
19:14 allison pmichaud: what particular pieces do you need from pdd30?
19:14 pmichaud We can do it before pdd30 is ready, but I see getting "make install" to work in January to be very important.
19:15 Wknight8111 agreed
19:15 pmichaud allison: mostly just assurance that what's in pdd30 is what we're going with (or fairly close to it)
19:15 allison pmichaud: the branch is unlikely to land as a whole in it's current state (for one thing it's unmergable in it's current state), so we'll have to pull out pieces and apply them to a new branch
19:16 allison (pmichaud: I tried your technique for recovering branches, but it was too far gone even for that)
19:16 pmichaud I'll report back next week what specifics on what I'm looking for in pdd30/make install
19:16 pmichaud s/what/with/   # can't type anymore :-(
19:16 allison pmichaud: thanks
19:17 allison and, anyone who wants to volunteer for a little branch recovery work is welcome (yet another task blocking on me, which is one more too many)
19:18 pmichaud eoq
19:20 allison cotto: I thought we had translations on the long-term roadmap, but don't see it now, mark the ticket you create for the 2.5 milestone (portability)
19:20 cotto will do
19:20 Coke my question is more of a pleading regarding https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/10 : i'd like to get that resolved before the december release, so I can continue to target release-latest for partcl.
19:21 Coke So if anyone can spare some eyeballs on that, I'd appreciate it.
19:21 Coke .eoq
19:21 chromatic Whew, wasn't my checkin.
19:21 chromatic Coke, if you have a PMC which extends Sub, that's the place to look.
19:21 allison Coke: thanks for the instructions on how to build Partcl, that helps
19:21 Coke I have an object that extends Sub.
19:22 allison Coke: so it's a high-level class that subclasses the low-level Sub?
19:22 Coke yes.
19:22 Coke but we can move that to #parrot.
19:22 allison ah.... there are known dragons there
19:22 allison yes
19:23 pmichaud I'd like to see that example.
19:23 pmichaud I also have a todo for something with "vtable invoke" that I owe allison.
19:23 pmichaud (it's in my hiveminder queue.)
19:24 Coke Anyone gets blocked on something, keep in touch.
19:24 Coke If no one has anything else...
19:24 cotto infastructure
19:24 cotto ignore
19:24 Coke ... it's a week.
19:24 Coke ~~
19:24 allison thanks, Coke!
19:24 masak Coke++ # emceeing
19:25 kj left #parrotsketch
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19:30 pmichaud Coke++
19:30 pmichaud left #parrotsketch
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