Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2008-12-09

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Time Nick Message
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17:03 masak I might not make it to the meeting today. but I have nothing much to report this week.
17:36 moritz joined #parrotsketch
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17:46 Tene PREREPORT
17:46 Tene Got the beginning of Exception Handlers into PCT.
17:46 Tene Hopefully finishing that tonight.
17:47 Tene They won't work until PCT starts generating a prelude for .includes, though.
17:47 Tene Started reviewing pdd24
17:47 Tene I should have that done tomorrow.
17:47 Tene KTHXBAI
17:59 Coke joined #parrotsketch
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18:24 allison joined #parrotsketch
18:30 moritz hello
18:30 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
18:30 particle hi-o
18:30 Wknight8111 hello
18:30 allison hi
18:30 jhorwitz yo
18:30 Wknight8111 Tene and masak left messages/reports earlier
18:31 pmichaud hello.
18:32 chromatic Shall we begin?  allison?
18:33 allison - Completed and merged in the I/O branch.
18:33 allison - Added a 'readline_interactive' method to the FileHandle PMC.
18:33 allison - At the Ubuntu Developer Summit.
18:33 allison EOR
18:34 chromatic I added a little bit of optimization.
18:34 chromatic I fixed all of the open Coverity Rung 1 problems.  Now we're at Rung 2, with a lot more problems to fix.  I can get more people accounts to help (cotto) and see about resetting passwords (tewk).
18:34 chromatic I didn't review NaN/Inf, but I will.
18:35 chromatic I have a couple of bugs to chase down.
18:35 chromatic Coke?
18:35 Coke - closed some tickets
18:35 Coke - asked for help on next release
18:35 Coke - tested io branch on tcl pre-merge
18:35 Coke - have some volunteers to sort out for upcoming releases.
18:35 rurban joined #parrotsketch
18:35 Coke - think tcl is still hitting GC issues in trunk, but will re-check post-io merge. Be nice if we could get that fixed with 0.8.2
18:36 Coke EOR
18:36 chromatic japhb?
18:37 chromatic jhorwitz?
18:37 jhorwitz completed mod_parrot APR pool implementation.  this was the last milestone for 0.5, so i will be prepping for a release this week, the first in almost a year.
18:37 jhorwitz recent postcircumfix[] changes in rakudo broke mod_perl6 horribly.  helped pmichaud come up with a fix.
18:37 jhorwitz submitted a patch to get november working with mod_perl6.
18:37 jhorwitz EOR
18:38 chromatic moritz?
18:38 moritz * usual testing + bug reporting + rt cleaning
18:38 moritz * as a user and tester I'm very pleased with Rakudo's progress
18:38 moritz * thinking about writing a draft or RFC for (Perl 6) S24-Testing.
18:38 moritz If somebody is interested in sharing thoughts or contributing, please /msg
18:38 moritz me or ask on #perl6
18:38 moritz .end
18:38 chromatic particle?
18:39 particle ~ tested pdd22io branch with allison, assign branch with pmichaud, calling_conventions branch with whiteknight
18:39 particle ~ updated documentation in repo to point to parrot-dev rather than perl6-internals--which we should retire soon
18:39 particle ~ looking at a funky bug in t/compilers/pct/complete_workflow.t
18:39 particle .end
18:39 chromatic rurban?
18:39 rurban still loaded with work. no time to look at install2
18:39 rurban eor
18:40 chromatic tewk?
18:41 chromatic pmichaud?
18:41 pmichaud == Parrot stuff
18:41 pmichaud : worked with tewk++ on :subid improvements
18:41 pmichaud == PGE stuff
18:41 pmichaud : Converted PGE::Match to use Capture PMC
18:41 pmichaud ** results in a ~13% improvement to rakudo building
18:41 pmichaud == PCT stuff
18:41 kj joined #parrotsketch
18:41 pmichaud : Converted PAST::Node to use Capture PMC
18:41 pmichaud ** results in a ~7% improvement to rakudo building
18:41 * kj arrives late.
18:41 pmichaud : worked with Tene++ on exception handlers in PCT
18:41 pmichaud : very good progress there
18:41 pmichaud == Rakudo stuff
18:41 pmichaud : list assignment now works
18:41 pmichaud : array slicing now works
18:41 pmichaud :   ... so Rakudo now looks a lot more like Perl
18:41 pmichaud : reduction operators ([+], [*], [/], ...) now work
18:41 pmichaud : Perl 6 subs can now contain inlined PIR code
18:41 pmichaud : temporarily added $*WARNINGS to disable "uninitialized value" warnings
18:41 pmichaud .eor
18:41 jonathan joined #parrotsketch
18:41 pmichaud queue 1 question.
18:41 jonathan (sorry I'm late!)
18:42 chromatic Wknight8111?
18:42 Wknight8111 * Worked on docs/book more
18:42 Wknight8111 * Removed .param type "name" => value syntax from IMCC
18:42 Wknight8111 * Worked on and talked about the calling_conventions branch problems
18:42 Wknight8111 * Might not be able to merge this branch until after the release next week
18:42 Wknight8111 * Helped register with a few questions, watching his progres
18:42 Wknight8111 * Add one question to the queue
18:42 chromatic jonathan?
18:42 jonathan * Was flying home last Tuesday from long weekend in UK, so wan't at PS
18:42 jonathan * Started branch for bytecode annotations stuff
18:42 jonathan * Various bits of Rakudo hacking
18:42 jonathan * Nearly finished (1 hour to go) using up the DeepText MMD grant
18:43 chromatic Let's go to questions then.  pmichaud has the first one.
18:43 jonathan Think that's about it...
18:43 jonathan .end
18:43 pmichaud Can we eliminate or otherwise disable the perl6-internals mailing list "soon"?
18:44 pmichaud I expect we'll get a lot more rakudo users/hackers in the next two weeks, and it would be very nice for all concerned if rakudo messages weren't spilling into the perl6-internals mailing list.
18:44 pmichaud (it's okay with me if parrot-porters continues to work, I'd just like to get rid of the name "perl6-internals")
18:45 particle pmichaud: i'm working on it now, or anyway the repo/website related changes
18:45 particle is everyone from p6i on parrot-dev?
18:45 pmichaud I'd like the email to bounce, or return an intelligent "if you meant to write for Rakudo, see p6c; if you meant to write for Parrot development, see parrot-dev" response
18:45 pmichaud but let's get perl6-internals out of folks' address books.
18:46 particle i suppose we need to get ask/robrt involved in that
18:46 pmichaud I'll craft a suitable response message.
18:46 allison pmichaud: yes, it could be possible to change quickly
18:46 particle send it to me, i'll take charge
18:47 pmichaud we've already had a couple of instances of Rakudo messages going to p6i, and it will likely get worse very soon.
18:47 allison particle: and, yes, I subscribed the whole p6i list to parrot-dev
18:47 pmichaud okay, thanks.  I think that's all I had for that question.
18:47 chromatic kj?
18:47 kj + work on PIRC bytecode generation
18:47 kj + local branches work (gotos etc.)
18:47 kj + non-branching instructions work pretty much as well (except PMC constant stuff)
18:47 kj + PCC ops need to be generated, but I need to do a lot of thinking how to exactly.
18:47 kj .end
18:47 * Coke remembers one other thing he did.
18:48 Coke (migrate some wiki)
18:48 chromatic jonathan also had a question.
18:48 jonathan Did he?
18:48 Wknight8111 i did
18:48 chromatic "Did he?" counts.
18:48 chromatic Wknight8111?
18:49 Wknight8111 Who knows the JIT system? I got a lot of questions about it from register, and there are some documentation holes that I want to fill in there
18:49 Wknight8111 he's keen on doing the LLVM backend
18:49 chromatic tewk probably knows the most right now.
18:50 chromatic For what it's worth, I went to a talk last night about SpiderMonkey's tracing JIT.  We could easily do something like that.
18:50 chromatic For various values of "easily".
18:50 Wknight8111 and various values of "we"
18:50 Wknight8111 okay, thanks
18:51 chromatic Other questions?
18:51 rurban but we don't trace yet
18:51 chromatic Tracing is almost trivial.
18:52 particle please update the roadmap.
18:52 particle it seems, with one week to go, that we're behind on our goals for the release
18:52 particle it would be nice to have a more accurate picture, though--by having more data
18:53 * kj quickly goes to check out the roadmap...
18:53 particle https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotRoadmap
18:53 allison for the 1.0 vision, I'm thinking a post on parrot.org makes the most sense, does anyone want more?
18:53 allison or less?
18:54 allison or different?
18:54 pmichaud works for me.
18:54 chromatic Works for me.
18:54 particle +1
18:54 jonathan +
18:54 jonathan 1
18:54 Coke +i
18:54 allison ok, I'll work on that next
18:54 pmichaud we may need to push pct honors hll to after release.
18:54 PerlJam allison: and links on perlbuzz.com, perlmonks.org, etc. if you can
18:55 kj particle: what tasks do we seem to be behind on?
18:55 particle those without status or champions
18:55 allison PerlJam: good idea, will do
18:56 chromatic Are there other questions?
18:56 allison particle: okay, everything has a champion now
18:57 PacoLinux I have a question
18:57 PacoLinux for 1.0 we want documents translations (the importants ones) ?
18:57 PacoLinux i can translate some documentation to spanish
18:58 allison PacoLinux: any translations we get are good, but we're not making translations a requirement until a later release (I think it was 2.0, Jan 2010)
18:58 PacoLinux ok
18:58 chromatic That means we won't hold a release for translations, but we'll gladly accept them!
18:58 allison PacoLinux: and any help you need to get started, we'll gladly offer
18:59 allison a translation can take a while, so start anytime
18:59 PacoLinux ok, I have some documentation translated, but I want to know what are the most -prefered- docs
19:00 Coke we don't know yet, I don't think.
19:00 Coke No one has gone through the /english/ docs yet.
19:00 allison makes sense, if you post a message to parrot-dev, we can at least pick the top 2 (requires some thought)
19:00 PacoLinux I have the faq, and some more ..
19:01 allison your review is a good one, because you can imagine what a new user will need most
19:01 pmichaud in many cases, the "most preferred" docs would be the user-level documentation (language implementors, in this case), and several of those don't exist yet (planned Jan 2009)
19:01 PacoLinux ok
19:01 PacoLinux thanks
19:03 kj should we go through the tasks for 0.8.2 and see where extra effort/help is required?
19:04 particle we could do that quickly.
19:04 particle pmichaud: opcode set... on track?
19:05 kj w.r.t. the opcode review: there's a bunch that's not in 'ops.num'. Maybe now is the time to fix that?
19:05 kj compilation of parrot starts with 20 lines '... is not in ops.num' messages.
19:05 pmichaud slightly behind -- I could do it on the plane tomorrow though.
19:05 pmichaud I don't think it's "at risk".  Nor is it critical if it bumps to Jan (other than we don't want too many things to bump)
19:06 chromatic That one's pretty easy to do though.
19:06 particle agreed. list it as on track
19:06 chromatic I'll pencil that in for Thursday or Friday.
19:06 particle vision we've addressed
19:06 particle calling coventions?
19:07 particle seems at risk to me, given wk's earlier comment. Wknight8111? allison?
19:07 Wknight8111 there's still a strange test error that prevents merging
19:07 pmichaud does calling conventions work with rakudo spectest?
19:07 pmichaud also, keep in mind that I'm unavailable tomorrow+Thu to do any troubleshooting with pct or rakudo
19:07 Wknight8111 not sure
19:08 particle i'll run spectest now in that branch and let you know
19:08 Wknight8111 if the branch doesnt merge today or tomorrow I'll probably push it off till after the release
19:08 pmichaud so if a merge occurs and "all hell breaks loose", I can't say that we'd be able to clean it up on the rakudo side before release.
19:09 particle ok, at risk it is. next: pct honors hll.
19:09 Wknight8111 exactly, I dont want to release hell before my first release :)
19:09 pmichaud we're behind on that one, only because there's a lot of dependencies.
19:09 pmichaud pct itself can honor hll no problem, but I was wanting to see at least one HLL actually using it before calling it "done"
19:09 kj w.r.t. the HLL stuff: ISTR that HLL_map wasn't working well. Maybe I was dreaming ,but just checking: should it work?
19:09 pmichaud kj:  there have been some .HLL improvements since then.
19:10 kj ok. missed them on the svn logs then.
19:10 allison joined #parrotsketch
19:10 pmichaud I really think it'd be better to simply say we'll have hll in Jan release.
19:11 kj it would allow for a lot more testing
19:11 kj if that can be fixed early jan.
19:11 particle i'll push it there now
19:11 particle chromatic: nan/inf?
19:11 pmichaud yes, there aren't a lot of blockers, there are just a lot of things that have to be coordinated to make it happen.
19:11 chromatic particle, I believe that's just documenting what we need and making it happen and harassing platform people to make it so.
19:12 particle yes. will it happen by tuesday?
19:12 chromatic Yes.
19:12 kj maybe that can be split into a 'document it==pdd14' and a 'make it so', if necessary
19:12 allison chromatic: at the moment, the task is just to document it
19:12 particle great. tene: sounds like events is on track. exceptions, too?
19:13 allison make it so is later
19:13 pmichaud ENOTENE, but it's on track.
19:13 particle ok, right.
19:13 particle pct loops?
19:13 pmichaud also on track.
19:13 kj particle: is the 'make it so' part for numbers on the roadmap?
19:14 particle ok, that's everything, except... Wknight8111, are you ready for the release?
19:14 Tene particle: Exceptions is on track.
19:15 Wknight8111 I'm ready
19:15 Tene AFAIK, unless someone can bring up eny other issues with parrot exceptions
19:15 Wknight8111 at least, I think I am
19:15 pmichaud and, another report:
19:15 pmichaud ** Rakudo spectests (r33717): 235 files, 4842 passing, 0 failing
19:15 pmichaud that's +153 from last week.
19:15 chromatic 158 to go...
19:15 pmichaud we might make 5k by tuesday.
19:16 allison pmichaud: excellent!
19:16 pmichaud There are a lot of tests and tickets that need reviewing.
19:16 Coke (parrot exceptions) there's a bunch of tic.... right.
19:16 jonathan I've got maybe another 15 coming from hypers. :-)
19:16 particle kj: i don't see it immediately
19:16 pmichaud and a lot of tests that weren't possible yesterday are now possible today.
19:16 kj particle: neither can I. Should it be added?
19:17 particle yes. find a good place
19:17 chromatic kj, particle, put that in for January.
19:17 chromatic I'll work on it.
19:17 kj ok. will do.
19:17 particle updates: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotRoadmap
19:17 pmichaud oh, another item I forgot to report:  http://www.pmichaud.com/perl6/commits-by-month.gif
19:17 pmichaud shows our monthly commits and the current trend
19:18 particle please add any tickets to the roadmap if they're related.
19:19 Tene Coke: can you point me to the exceptions tickets, or assign them to me or something?
19:19 pmichaud (assign tickets)++
19:20 particle i'm looking forward to see more 'landed' status this week. great work, all.
19:20 chromatic Other questions?
19:20 Tene I'm unclear on the ful list of what "exceptions, debugging, exception types, resumable exceptions" means.
19:21 Tene If that could be expanded somewhere so I can be confident about it, I'd appreciate it.
19:21 allison Tene: it was a direct type in of several sticky notes we grouped together at the summit
19:21 pmichaud resumable exceptions is done, yes?
19:21 allison Tene: the heart was just debugging resumable exceptions
19:21 Tene Yes, unless that implies auto-resuming non-fatal exceptions or something.
19:22 allison Tene: no, that's not spec'd
19:22 pmichaud "exception types" was initially meant as a review of our existing exception types
19:22 Tene exceptions thrown from PIR are resumable just fine.
19:22 allison pmichaud: ah, let's make that a separate task for next month
19:22 pmichaud that doesn't have to be done for dec.... right
19:23 pmichaud it should probably be part of pdd23 review
19:23 particle (keeping the roadmap honest)++
19:23 Tene and the "exceptions" task?
19:23 pmichaud I think that was a generic label, not a specific task
19:23 particle yep
19:23 Tene Okay.
19:23 allison pmichaud: ok, then for Feb release
19:23 pmichaud the big thing I was looking for was that resumable exceptions worked
19:23 pmichaud we also need to make sure we're clear on throw versus rethrow semantics
19:24 allison I'll move exception types to pdd23 review
19:24 Tene pmichaud: can you list the deps for pct+hll somewhere?
19:24 pmichaud Tene: yes, I'll do that.  File a ticket for me to trac?
19:24 pmichaud I can respond to the ticket.
19:24 pmichaud (a little hectic here at the moment)
19:24 * Tene nods.
19:25 pmichaud specific tasks for each of the roadmap items probably ought to become tickets.
19:25 Tene Should I make a ticked about making thos etickets?
19:25 Tene ;)
19:26 Coke no.
19:31 kj seems we've gone through this month's list then?
19:31 pmichaud yes.
19:32 pmichaud do we have any release blockers?
19:32 pmichaud reminder to everyone to update NEWS, PLATFORMS, etc.
19:33 Wknight8111 thank you pmichaud, I was going to make that reminder too
19:33 chromatic It's good to remind the list too.
19:34 Wknight8111 I will. I have a lot of release-related tasks in my hiveminder queue
19:37 kj seems we're done then ? :-)
19:38 particle aye. until next week.
19:38 Wknight8111 till next week
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