Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-02-10

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Time Nick Message
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13:05 kid51 * Thanks to those who have looked at the RT queue in the last week.
13:05 kid51 * Over about 10 days we've gone from 566 unresolved to 478.
13:06 kid51 * There are still many old tickets that could be resolved if reviewed by people with knowledge of where Parrot has been and where it is going.
13:07 kid51 * I don't think we need to make moving all tickets to Trac our top prioritiy,
13:07 kid51 but if a ticket can be tied to a specific milestone, then let's close it in RT and open it in Trac.
13:08 kid51 * In any event, our main focus should be on understanding the issues raised by tickets, regardless of which system they're in.
13:08 kid51 EOR
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17:01 kj Might be late for #ps, so preposting here:
17:02 kj + posted first announcement for next release, which is 1 week from today
17:02 kj + did some minor stuff on languages/pod; infrastructure is in place and working, it's just a matter of filling the gaps
17:03 kj + possibly think about creating a general Abstract Document Tree, as suggested by Allison; could be used by Markdown and Pod,and other markup languages.
17:04 kj + this week I'll prepare the release 0.9.1, will practice with the release guidelines.
17:04 kj EOR
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17:59 TimToady std: $x
17:59 TimToady bleh
18:00 TimToady EOR :)
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18:25 whiteknight I might be a little late today
18:28 PerlJam several people have said (not just today) that they'd be late to #ps.  Maybe you guys should consider changing the time.
18:29 pmichaud I'm amused at how many people show up early to say they'll be late.  :-) :-)
18:29 cotto maybe I should wait 20m and say I'll be early
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18:30 moritz hi
18:30 moritz shall we start?
18:30 moritz allison?
18:30 masak let's.
18:31 moritz contingencyplan?
18:31 allison I'll go
18:31 moritz ok
18:32 allison - Substantial work on airplanes this week.
18:32 allison - Resolved some open questions in the Install PDD, as well as other cleanups and clarifications.
18:32 allison - Ticket sprinting: reviewing, fixing, resolving, rejecting.
18:32 allison - Documentation fixes: Modernised the format of PDDs, started similiar modifications in all pod documentation. Edits on docs/book. Moving some documentation from the book into the core docs. Officially dubbed PMCs with the backronym "Polymorphic Container" in the docs (very few changes, because we mostly just call them "PMCs").
18:32 allison - Reviewed Perl and Python's Debian/Ubuntu packaging, and made some cleanups to Parrot's packaging.
18:32 allison - Added an Ubuntu packaging guide to the repository.
18:32 allison - Updated Ubuntu packages and put them up on our Launchpad team archive (see https://launchpad.net/~parrot-dev/+archive/ppa)
18:33 allison - Implemented a 'load_language' opcode (not checked in yet).
18:33 allison - Started a branch to streamline our calling conventions, addressing some speed issues reported in MMD and I/O (but likely affecting all cross-over between C and Parrot calling conventions).
18:33 allison EOR
18:33 moritz cotto?
18:33 moritz (I hope chromatic shouts when he's back)
18:33 cotto working on killing any tickets in RT I own
18:34 cotto not much ekse
18:34 diakopter joined #parrotsketch
18:34 cotto *else
18:34 cotto eor
18:34 moritz GeJ?
18:34 viklund joined #parrotsketch
18:34 moritz kj?
18:35 moritz leo?
18:35 moritz masak?
18:35 masak * Rakudobug tickets.
18:35 masak * Built a project installer ('proto') for github Perl 6 project.
18:35 masak * Fairly productive week, November-wise.
18:35 masak .eor
18:35 moritz I did a little rakudo hacking, not much else
18:35 moritz NotFound?
18:36 NotFound * working again on parrot debugger
18:36 NotFound * working in pmc attribute inheritance
18:36 NotFound * some hacks in exception handling
18:36 NotFound * the usual bug haunting
18:36 NotFound EOR
18:36 moritz particle1?
18:37 moritz PerlJam?
18:37 PerlJam lurking. eor.  :)
18:37 moritz pmichaud?
18:37 NotFound Forgot to say: some minor work on ecmascript
18:38 pmichaud == Misc stuff
18:38 pmichaud : Presented on Perl 6, Rakudo, and Parrot at Frozen Perl
18:38 pmichaud : There's a lot of Perl 6 and Parrot excitement there
18:38 pmichaud : Hackathon was very successful
18:38 pmichaud : I expect we'll be capitalizing on such presentations in the future
18:38 pmichaud == Parrot stuff
18:38 pmichaud : Refactored pbc_to_exe to be a lot faster
18:38 pmichaud : This exposed performance issues and a buffering bug in FileHandle PMCs
18:38 pmichaud : These are now being fixed (or already have been fixed)
18:38 pmichaud == Rakudo stuff
18:38 pmichaud : Worked on Rakudo's build system a bit more as part of moving
18:38 pmichaud out of the Parrot repo
18:38 pmichaud : We still have a couple of issues there that I'm working on
18:38 pmichaud : Unfortunately other distractions have limited my hacking time
18:38 pmichaud but should clear up this week
18:38 pmichaud : Worked with Andy Lester on some rakudo.org site ideas
18:38 pmichaud : I'm behind on our spectest-progress.csv and "passing test" charts
18:38 pmichaud :: git doesn't seem to provide an easy "checkout copy of repo as
18:38 pmichaud of date yyyy-mm-dd" like subversion has
18:38 pmichaud :: so, I'm needing to rework my scripts a bit
18:38 pmichaud EOR
18:38 moritz rdice?
18:39 moritz rurban?
18:39 rurban I believe we should get rid of static libparrot on win32 per default.
18:39 rurban - Revived mk_native_pbc and fixed the tests. 64bit still broken though.
18:39 rurban updated release manager guide for the platform tests
18:39 rurban - Discussion with Andy Dogherty about @linkflags@ vs @ldflags@ esp. on solaris,
18:39 rurban Fixed for solaris, but pbc_to_exe changed to linkflags now. Needs platform smokes.
18:39 rurban - Still need review for a pbc_disassemble roundtrip patch with new options
18:39 rurban --bare -b, ... (assembable disassemblies) => TT #258
18:39 rurban - Still need review for a PackFile API rename patch: Parrot_loadbc => Parrot_pbc_load,
18:39 rurban Parrot_readbc => Parrot_pbc_read plus one new debug argument. => TT #266
18:39 rurban Without that I cannot test 64bit pbc bugs.
18:39 rurban EOR
18:39 rurban First line missing: - Big mingw trouble with mixing up static and shared libs. Mostly my fault
18:40 moritz Tene?
18:41 moritz Util?
18:41 rdice moritz:  Hi, what's up?
18:41 Util Fixed Parrot TT #256 (bad PAST->PIR generation), which fixed Rakudo RT #63004 (eight element list causes imcc parse error).
18:41 Util After I acclimate to git, I will be poking Rakudo's sanity tests with a sharp stick; some invalid TAP is being emitted.
18:41 Util EOR
18:41 moritz whiteknight?
18:42 moritz anybody else I forgot?
18:43 moritz question time then. I didn't see any queued questions, but I might have been sloppy...
18:43 rurban I'll pose my "get rid of static libparrot on win32 per default" question on the list. I#ll have to write it up
18:44 moritz ok. Milestone reviews?
18:44 NotFound I have a question about deprecating global symbols. Will be enough to replace them with macros during the deprecation period?
18:45 allison NotFound: do you have a specific example in mind?
18:45 NotFound allison: charsets and encodings pointers.
18:47 NotFound The bad part is that the macros must depend of the availability of an 'interp' symbol.
18:47 allison and? are you asking if we change the access methods for charsets and encoding pointers within a deprecation cycle as long as we provide macros for the access?
18:47 allison (that is, "if it's okay if we")
18:47 NotFound Yes, that is the point.
18:48 chromatic I could live with that.
18:48 rurban I'ts not so easy and will produce ugly workaround code for one cycle
18:48 allison macros only need an interp symbol if the macro uses interp
18:48 NotFound The alternative is no deprecation cycle at all
18:48 allison NotFound: in general, no, changing the interface is changing the interface
18:49 allison NotFound: even if it's changing the direct struct access to a macro
18:49 NotFound allison: we can't get rid of globals without an interpreter where to store links to things
18:49 allison NotFound: now, we can add new macros, and then deprecate the direct access after the deprecation cycle
18:50 * kj comes in late
18:50 allison NotFound: if it's stored in the interp, then it's global by definition
18:50 NotFound Not by mine
18:50 allison NotFound: so, in what sense is it "getting rid of globals"?
18:50 allison NotFound: is there a ticket or mailing list thread you're referring to?
18:51 NotFound I think Infinoid posted something, he, rurban and me were working on that thing
18:51 rurban TT #276
18:52 chromatic Next question, or is there still discussion here?
18:52 NotFound And there is a related question: are the defaults charset and encoding mutable?
18:53 allison NotFound: no, not mutable
18:53 allison I'll comment on ticket
18:53 NotFound There is a global symbol, and there is a function to change it,,, that does not affect the symbol.
18:54 chromatic Let's catch up on missed reports.
18:54 chromatic kj?
18:55 kj hi, i preposted. not much to report anyway
18:55 chromatic Okay.
18:55 kj except
18:55 kj 1 thing
18:55 kj I'd like to get some status updates at somepoint this week
18:55 kj but I'll ask people directly, but just so that you all know :-)
18:55 kj eor
18:55 chromatic I didn't get a lot done, but I checked in the support policy guide.
18:56 chromatic I fixed a couple of bugs.
18:56 chromatic I did some profiling, and figured out that we need to fix calling conventions in the short term.
18:56 chromatic In the long term, we need to not write C code.
18:56 chromatic I also poked at Parrot::Embed, and cleaned it up a big.
18:56 chromatic bit
18:56 chromatic EOR
18:56 chromatic Anyone else come in late?
18:57 chromatic Okay, let's do roadmap review then.
18:58 kj https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotRoadmap
18:58 kj for anybody to follow
18:59 chromatic The AST PDD, pmichaud?
18:59 pmichaud still not complete but on track
18:59 chromatic The PIR PDD, whiteknight and tene?
18:59 kj i think past::control is missing?
19:00 chromatic dynops and dynpmcs from an installed parrot?
19:01 pmichaud I'm still working on rakudo build issues, but afaik nothing has happened there
19:01 pmichaud i.e., it still needs a lot of work.
19:01 allison in progress, part of larger language install  worked on this week
19:01 pmichaud okay, see what allison said.  :-)
19:01 chromatic User docs, allison?
19:01 allison pmichaud: I could use your list of rakudo issues
19:02 allison user docs also in progress, needs  more humans
19:02 pmichaud at the moment:  after doing "make install", where should rakudo's build process find the tools for building dynops and dynpmcs?
19:02 allison pmichaud: at the moment, not installed
19:02 pmichaud then that's rakudo's biggest issue right now.  :-)
19:03 allison pmichaud: will be installed at /usr/lib/parrot/tools but not by 'make install', only by 'make dev-install' or similar target
19:03 pmichaud does 'make dev-install' work yet?
19:03 allison pmichaud: make dev-install doesn't exist yet
19:03 pmichaud okay.
19:03 pmichaud those are rakudo's current blockers then for this milestone item.
19:04 allison pmichaud: what's your current strategy? copy the language into languages/perl6?
19:04 rurban /usr/lib/parrot/tools/lib for the perl5 libs?
19:04 pmichaud allison:  we always build from the parrot build tree.
19:04 * whiteknight finally shows up
19:04 whiteknight *sorry*
19:04 allison pmichaud: not clear what you mean there
19:04 pmichaud more precisely:  we always build using the tools that are in the parrot build tree.
19:04 pmichaud we cannot build from an installed parrot.
19:05 allison pmichaud: yes, but are you able to build outside the languages/ directory? (I'm trying to judge whether it's just a matter of copying the tools into the install directory, or if the tools are using hard-coded paths)
19:06 pmichaud right now we can build from outside languages/
19:06 pmichaud but we still have to have the location of the parrot build tree to do that.
19:06 pmichaud (which we get from parrot_config)
19:06 allison pmichaud: okay, then it should be simple, I can add 'make dev-install' today.
19:06 allison (alternate suggestions on name welcome)
19:06 chromatic Let's move the detailed discussion to #parrot.
19:07 pmichaud I think we're done for now.
19:07 chromatic TODO/SKIP test review... well, we're getting good at whittling down tickets, suppose we could file more.
19:07 chromatic PDD planning and milestones?
19:07 allison chromatic: is what we're doing now
19:08 allison list as 'on track'
19:08 chromatic PDD 23 Exceptions, tene?
19:10 chromatic Strings PDD?
19:10 allison landed
19:10 NotFound I added a hack that avoid several cases of rcursive throwing.
19:10 chromatic Windows porting?
19:11 allison in progress
19:11 allison (mainly testing, ticket review)
19:11 chromatic MMD tickets?
19:11 allison in progress
19:12 allison (a lot of that is the calling conventions branch I started yesterday)
19:12 chromatic Any blockers?
19:12 rurban TT #276 for win32 (NotFounds deprecation patch)
19:13 chromatic Oh yes, the lexicals PDD.  pmichaud?
19:13 pmichaud on track
19:14 pmichaud might push to march
19:14 chromatic Okay, will update.
19:14 chromatic That's listed as critical.  Can you slip something else.
19:15 chromatic ?
19:18 allison rurban: added comment to TT #276
19:19 rurban Thanks; I'll post a writeup to the list also
19:20 allison can we get someone else on lexicals PDD?
19:20 whiteknight what needs to be done for it?
19:20 pmichaud the lexicals pdd is critical?
19:20 pmichaud oh.
19:20 NotFound I'm not even sure to have understanded how lexical woks,
19:21 allison pmichaud has a full plate, and this task is pretty much just "see how lexicals are implemented now, and update the PDD"
19:21 pmichaud why is that pdd critical when pdds aren't?
19:21 chromatic Not sure.
19:21 pmichaud that seems bizarre to me -- I don't remember it being critical.
19:21 pmichaud "critical" feels like a typo to me.
19:21 allison so, unflag it as critical
19:21 allison still, there's no reason pmichaud  has to do that one
19:21 chromatic I would, but Trac keeps telling me someone else named "chromatic" has modified it.
19:22 chromatic pmichaud has it because he wrote the current lexical implementation.
19:22 pmichaud if anyone else understands lexicals, I'll be glad to let them update it.
19:22 allison yes, but anyone could do the doc work and ask him questions
19:22 NotFound And so is the only one that understand it? ;)
19:22 kj chromatic: sorry, I'm updating trac bit by bit, , so your compy in the browser is probably old
19:23 pmichaud I know that the lexicals implementation was critical, but I'm not sure that the docs needed to be.  Oh well.
19:25 allison pmichaud: it's critical because we currently have no documentation on how lexicals work
19:25 pmichaud well, pdd20 exists, it's just not up-to-date.
19:25 allison need to pick that information out of your brain somehow
19:25 whiteknight we have some documentation about it in docs/book/
19:25 pmichaud anyway, I'll shuffle it up in the priorities.
19:26 allison right, the task is just updating the pdd, not a whole doc writing
19:26 pmichaud I think I could make a similar argument for other pdds, however.
19:26 Tene re pdd23, life has been awkward lately.  I'll try to work on it this week.
19:26 allison pmichaud: yes, I've been working on updating those too
19:26 pmichaud i.e., if pdd20 is critical, there are at least a half-dozen others that are out of date and ought to be listed as "critical" also.
19:27 rurban particle: I have a TT##238 (install_files.pl --devel ) patch for you (critical for pmichaud)
19:27 pmichaud after revising the roadmap history, I'm quite certain that the "critical" designation was for lexicals itself, and not the documentation.
19:27 * kj is seeing dizzy and needs to get away from the screen.. sorry!
19:27 chromatic Makes sense.
19:28 pmichaud anyway, we can declare it critical now.  If someone wants to take it on I'll gladly do on-demand brain dumps; otherwise I'll try to get to it by tuesday.
19:28 kj I'll get back to people this week asking them questions about the release. good night
19:28 Tene if anyone else wants to do Exceptions pdd and harass me about it, the same offer applies
19:28 pmichaud (s/revising/revisiting above ... I wasn't intending to revise history)
19:28 chromatic Anything else we need to resolve here, or shall we adjourn to #parrot?
19:28 pmichaud I'm adjourning.
19:29 chromatic thank you all
19:29 NotFound Tene: I'm doing things with exceptions these days
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