Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-02-17

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Time Nick Message
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18:21 pmichaud I may be 5-10 late to #ps
18:28 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
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18:30 chromatic Hello everyone.
18:31 kj hello there
18:31 Whiteknight hello
18:31 rurban here
18:31 masak hi
18:31 cotto hi
18:31 NotFound ho
18:32 Util hi
18:32 chromatic Let's begin.
18:32 chromatic allison?
18:32 pmichaud here.
18:32 chromatic barney?
18:33 allison here
18:33 allison - Started a branch to streamline our calling conventions, addressing some speed issues reported in MMD and I/O (but likely affecting all cross-over between C and Parrot calling conventions).
18:33 allison - Fixed persistent install location problems in install script.
18:33 allison - Fixed package annotations in MANIFEST and MANIFEST.generated.
18:33 allison - Changed install to use proper versioned directories (e.g. /usr/lib/parrot/0.9.0-devel/library/...), and changed runtime library paths to search versioned directories. (Every compiled parrot knows its version, #define'd as PARROT_VERSION.)
18:33 allison - Added an 'install-dev' target, which installs the necessary tools to compile and build a language. (Not needed to simply run a language.)
18:34 allison - Replaced tools/build/dynoplibs.pl and tools/build/dynpmc.pl with makefiles, will commit after release. (We have a highly-developed infrastructure for template-generated makefiles.)
18:34 allison - Fixed various bugs and hardcoded paths in the Parrot::Pmc2c modules, to allow them to run from an installed copy.
18:34 allison - Patched Rakudo's Configure.pl and Makefile.in to work off an installed Parrot, and added makefiles for Rakudo's dynpmcs and dynops. Waiting for TT #343 to be applied after the release to fix a remaining failure there.
18:34 allison EOR
18:34 chromatic barney?
18:34 barney Busy with $DAYJOB. Won't make it to German Perl Workshop next week.
18:34 barney Moved Pipp to github.
18:35 barney .eor
18:35 chromatic I have been poking at some tickets.
18:35 chromatic I'm also looking at a log of the core test run and the SKIP and TODO tests, and I'll keep working on that today.
18:35 chromatic cotto?
18:35 cotto * "DOD" is ded
18:35 cotto eor
18:36 chromatic japhb?
18:37 Infinoid joined #parrotsketch
18:37 chromatic kj?
18:37 kj preparing release
18:37 kj will start soon after #ps
18:37 kj no other activities
18:37 kj i have 2 questions
18:38 kj and many thanks to people who have been working hard to fix tests this week
18:38 kj eor
18:38 chromatic Infinoid?
18:39 Infinoid ENOREPORT
18:39 chromatic masak?
18:39 masak * lots of fun Proto (perl 6 project installer) and Druid (board game) hacking
18:39 masak * a smattering of bug reports
18:39 masak * no actual Rakudo development, unfortunately
18:39 masak .eor
18:40 chromatic NotFound?
18:40 NotFound * some work in parrot_debugger and debugger ops
18:40 NotFound * work on embedding and related changes on headers, ready to apply after release, TT #343
18:40 NotFound * miscellaneous cleaning and fixes
18:40 NotFound 1 question
18:40 NotFound EOR
18:40 chromatic particle?
18:41 chromatic rurban?
18:41 rurban - Added experimental pmc/bignum with two open bugs (sorry, no tickets yet).
18:41 rurban - More work on float bit pbc transformers, 64 bit still broken somewhere.
18:41 rurban - Installed ancient openbsd 3.8 and verified shared problem, but not   the open -0.0 problem yet.
18:41 rurban - Applied several patches.
18:41 rurban - Added some more tickets.
18:42 rurban EOR
18:42 chromatic Tene_?
18:42 Tene_ Busy with $dayjob and staying AFK for the rest of the day for RSI and other sanity reasons.  Did nothing Parrot-related.  EOR
18:42 chromatic Util?
18:42 Util Traveling; Only time for cage work this week, straightening out SVN repo properties.
18:43 Util Back to Rakudo sanity tests on Monday.
18:43 Util EOR
18:43 chromatic Whiteknight?
18:43 Whiteknight CORE
18:43 Whiteknight - Did some random GC cleanups, looking to find a better home for platform-specific GC code that's living in src/gc/system.c
18:43 Whiteknight - Ripped out src/bignum.*
18:43 Whiteknight - Converted VTABLE_morph to take a class PMC instead of an INTVAL type id.
18:43 Whiteknight - Been working to replace Parrot_PCCINVOKE with Parrot_pcc_invoke_method_from_c_args. Tough going so far.
18:43 Whiteknight - Still working on that in the rename_pccinvoke branch,
18:43 Whiteknight BOOK
18:43 Whiteknight - added information to docs/book about various PMCs, including their vtables, methods, and uses
18:43 Whiteknight - Wrote first section about IO
18:43 Whiteknight - put out a call for documentation-reviewing help on the parrotblog. Got lots of good responses
18:43 Whiteknight MISC
18:43 Whiteknight - Getting working on my Octave port again. Found another developer interested in the project. Details to come.
18:44 chromatic pmichaud?
18:44 pmichaud - primarily worked on Rakudo build issues, and answering miscellaneous questions
18:44 pmichaud - updated Rakudo so that it can work with Test::Harness and 'prove'
18:44 pmichaud - working on a rewrite of t/harness for this
18:45 pmichaud - added a '--gen-parrot' option to Rakudo's Configure.pl to automatically download and build an appropriate copy of parrot
18:45 pmichaud - refactored Rakudo's Makefile a fair bit, more refactors coming
18:45 pmichaud EOR
18:46 chromatic Did I miss anyone?
18:47 chromatic Let's do a quick milestone review.
18:47 chromatic PDD 14 numbers -- no progress from me.  particle?
18:47 Tene_ No progress from me on anything I'm listed on.
18:47 kj chromatic: shall I mark that as missed?
18:48 chromatic Let's start shuffling them tomorrow, if we don't hit them today.
18:48 rurban I've added get_bignum and set_bignum
18:48 chromatic As far as I know, the HLL class registry works; TT #71 is closed.
18:48 chromatic PDD 26 AST, pmichaud and Whiteknight?
18:49 Whiteknight is my name on that>
18:49 Whiteknight ?
18:49 pmichaud no progress, but expect to have it done this week.
18:49 chromatic Sorry, that was Tene_.
18:49 chromatic PDD 19 PIR, Whiteknight and Tene_?
18:49 allison looks like the book covers that
18:50 Whiteknight Yeah, I think that's on track
18:50 chromatic On track or landed?
18:50 kj the "user docs" part is the book, yes, but pdd19?
18:50 Whiteknight the milestone was to improve PDD19-related documenation
18:50 kj (afaic, pdd19 is complete enough to mark as 'landed')
18:51 Whiteknight let's call it landed, but the book is still a work in progress
18:51 allison kj: I'd agree
18:51 chromatic dynops and dynpmc creation from installed Parrot, allison and pmichaud?
18:51 pmichaud allison's report indicates it's largely finished, I guess?
18:52 allison chromatic: nearly there, running into a few include problems in an installed parrrot
18:52 pmichaud I haven't had a chance to test it yet.
18:52 chromatic I'll mark that as on track then.
18:52 kj allison: when do you expect to have that done?
18:52 allison pmichaud: but, getting safely all the way through generating the C files
18:52 chromatic todo/skip review is in progress.
18:52 chromatic PDD planning and milestone edits, allison and pmichaud?
18:52 allison kj: I don't want to make more commits today, with the release coming up, but will commit right after release (so, today or tomorrow)
18:53 kj ok. just before we all agree that all these things are 'on track'; if they're not 'landed' within 2 hours, they'll be 'missed' ;-)
18:53 allison planning and milestone edits: landed
18:53 allison kj: yes, they'll be "missed/rescheduled"
18:54 chromatic PDD 23 exceptions, Tene_ ?
18:54 kj (but I agree we can mark them 'on track' for the next release)
18:54 Tene_ chromatic: I havdn't done any work.
18:54 chromatic PDD 20 lexicals, pmichaud?
18:55 pmichaud didn't make it for this release, but I should be able to have it by next #ps
18:55 pmichaud (barring any further unforeseen non-Parrot events)
18:55 pmichaud q2q
18:56 chromatic Windows porting, particle and allison?
18:57 allison there's been some good work there this month
18:57 allison I'd call it landed, though we'll still do general platform testing next month
18:57 chromatic on track?  landed?  A vast portal of despair?
18:57 chromatic Resolving mmd tickets, allison?
18:57 allison missed
18:57 allison (I picked the "critical" task first)
18:58 kj just curious: what exactly was windows porting/subprocesses?
18:58 kj I've been a bit inactive lately, so I didn't really got that
18:58 allison kj: essentially, give a good review of Parrot on windows, make sure the tickets were getting attention
18:59 kj ok.thx.
18:59 kj with the several tasks moved to next month's release, and the tasks that were already there, what's the level of confidence in making them all?
18:59 chromatic Very little of next month's work is code.
19:00 kj chromatic: true..
19:00 rurban confident
19:00 pmichaud that prompts my question, though:  is the calling conventions re-work a milestone for March release?
19:00 Tene_ And do we have a track record of better productivity at docs than at code?
19:00 chromatic Not so far...
19:00 pmichaud and is it a 'critical' milestone?
19:00 pmichaud i.e., do we go ahead and release Parrot 1.0 with the current calling conventions in place?
19:00 Tene_ "not code" doesn't necessarily mean easier.
19:00 allison pmichaud: it's not in a milestone for March
19:01 NotFound IMO a solution for the invoke problem is critical
19:01 kj NotFound: what's the invoke problem?
19:01 pmichaud allison:  as in, it's not a 1.0 feature?
19:01 NotFound kj: be able to call: object()
19:01 allison pmichaud: I wouldn't consider any current calling conventions a show-stopper for 1.0, more "nice to have"
19:01 pmichaud allison: okay.
19:02 NotFound Instead of having to do: object(object)
19:02 kj allison: the calling-conventions refactor doesn't mean a changing interface right?
19:02 allison pmichaud: and about optimization
19:02 kj NotFound: ok self. I see.
19:02 Whiteknight a lot of cc-related fixes will land next month, but they will land piecewise
19:02 pmichaud allison: it won't affect language-specific PMCs?
19:02 allison Whiteknight: and may be delayed until after 1.0, depending on their stability
19:03 Whiteknight True. some are going to be more invasive then others
19:03 pmichaud NotFound: we've lived for years without being able to invoke objects.  I don't know why it would now be "critical".
19:03 Whiteknight pmichaud: they *should* be mostly transparent to PMCs
19:04 pmichaud I'm not saying it's unimportant -- Rakudo and PGE and PCT could really use the ability to invoke objects, but it hasn't been a showstopper.
19:04 allison basically, at this point, a pile of unstable changes to the calling conventions is much worse than a handful of know but non-disruptive problems
19:04 NotFound pmichaud: I think is very important for language and libraries interoperability
19:04 pmichaud NotFound: interoperability is 1.5
19:05 allison pmichaud: aye
19:05 NotFound pmichaud: rigth, but will be far better if the basis were stablished before. Maybe not critical, aye.
19:06 pmichaud we do all need to remember that 1.5 is only four months after 1.0
19:06 chromatic We can't afford to do a lot of non-critical tasks if they delay critical tasks.
19:06 pmichaud that's basically the amount of time that existed between PDS and 1.0
19:07 pmichaud do we have any critical milestones that haven't landed?
19:07 pmichaud looks like just the dynoplibs issue
19:07 rurban pdd14 numbers maybe
19:08 pmichaud pdd14 numbers isn't listed as critical.
19:08 allison rurban: not critical
19:08 pmichaud (nor do I think it's critical)
19:08 chromatic Let's go through the list of tasks for next month very quickly.  Some are missing people.
19:08 pmichaud "critical" in this context means "we don't ship 1.0 without it"
19:08 chromatic bug/issue tracking and triage guidelines
19:08 chromatic I can work on that.
19:08 pmichaud list me down for the tutorials
19:09 NotFound clean up core headers - TT #343 is a step
19:09 pmichaud some of that is done already, but I really need to get it all in place for my upcoming talks
19:09 chromatic PCT user docs, pmichaud and Tene_.
19:09 chromatic Move languages out of repo/tarball.
19:10 chromatic Lots of coke, fperrad there.
19:10 pmichaud I'm planning to move pynie to github
19:10 Tene_ No idea whether I'll have cycles or not.
19:10 chromatic Web site updates?
19:10 allison pmichaud: does python use git?
19:10 pmichaud shall we leave lolcode in the repo or move it out?  I think it's a useful demo language, but I can go either way.
19:10 chromatic +1 to keep
19:11 Tene_ +1 keep
19:11 pmichaud allison: there's some discussion about that within the python community, iiuc
19:11 kj especially if we can get the any-to-lolcode converter :-)
19:11 pmichaud kj:  that's coming also :-)
19:11 kj pmichaud: I was hoping for that :-) That's really a USP!
19:11 chromatic Anyone for web site updates?
19:12 allison I want to move all languages out of the repository, even if only to parrot-languages on svn.parrot.org
19:12 Util keep++ ; I am still feeding the video of PM's talk to PerlMongers, stirring up interest in Parrot.
19:12 PerlJam random opinion from the lurker:   abc and lolcode are both nice languages to keep with parrot.
19:12 pmichaud at any rate, I really like git's model, so it's a good choice for pynie.  If/when someone wants to lead development of pynie, they can easily move it somewhere else.
19:12 allison abc and lolcode could be moved to "examples"
19:12 Infinoid chromatic: Given the proper access, I can work on website stuff.
19:12 chromatic user forum?
19:13 NotFound We need some languages in the repo if we want to be able to have tests of language loading and compiling
19:13 allison pmichaud: I was thinking I might invest in pynie after 1.0, but doesn't matter to me where it's hosted
19:13 pmichaud allison: I'll be curious if you find any takers at the pycon devel summit
19:13 allison pmichaud: me too
19:14 allison Infinoid: will make sure you have access
19:14 chromatic Integrated language testing?
19:14 Infinoid A task list more specific than "web site updates" would help too :)
19:15 kj Infinoid: I think most of it would be moving the old website?
19:15 Infinoid Moving wiki pages and stuff?  Can do.
19:15 pmichaud I think there are tickets for web site update thingies.
19:15 kj so there's no bits in the old site anymore.
19:15 Infinoid great, I'll have a look
19:15 pmichaud closing out the perlfoundation wiki pages would be good.
19:15 pmichaud I can do integrated language testing for NQP.
19:16 pmichaud can't speak for other langs.
19:16 allison Infinoid: also, scanning the pages looking for references to old resources, old ways of submitting bugs, etc
19:16 Infinoid Makes sense.  I probably already have enough access for that task, I'll raise an interrupt if I run into any trouble
19:17 kj next task is: make html
19:17 allison Infinoid: I don't see an "Infinoid" account on www.parrot.org
19:18 allison kj: I fixed up 'make html' last month
19:18 kj allison: so 'landed'?
19:18 rurban almost
19:18 kj 'on track' then
19:18 allison kj: what it needs, more than anything is a clean up of the docs content, but that's a separate task on the list
19:19 allison kj: that ticket may have also had the 'docs.parrot.org' site attached to it
19:19 kj allison: there's so much old documentation, hard to know what to keep and what not
19:19 kj it'd be a waste just to throw it out
19:19 pmichaud toss anyting that's wrong.  :-)
19:19 allison kj: yes
19:19 pmichaud *anything
19:20 allison kj: but, we don't have to include all of it in 'make html'
19:20 kj allison: true.
19:20 allison and, yes, toss out the stuff that's wrong
19:20 NotFound docs.parrot.org does not resolve yet
19:20 allison NotFound: yes, hasn't been created yet
19:21 allison NotFound: a ticket has been filed with our admins
19:21 allison (requesting the domain)
19:21 Util I will have time after Monday to help with website updates. I would also need access. (did not parse c's statement as a call for volunteers, at first)
19:21 kj Whiteknight: ping
19:22 allison I don't see a Util account on www.parrot.org either, create one and I'll grant access
19:22 kj oh sorry, wrong channel
19:22 Util ok, thx
19:22 chromatic Are there any other questions?
19:22 Infinoid I've got a minor one.
19:22 kj I have 3
19:22 NotFound Me 1
19:22 chromatic kj?
19:23 kj 1: copyright
19:23 Util 1Q
19:23 kj all files except LICENSE will be Parrot Foundation ?
19:23 kj including all perl scripts, basically any file
19:23 allison also not Pod::Simple
19:23 allison or other external Perl modules in the repository)
19:24 allison otherwise, yes
19:24 allison because Rakudo already moved out
19:24 kj ok, so I'll leave most of lib/ alone then
19:24 allison most of lib is lib/Parrot, which is Parrot Foundation
19:25 allison kj: if you want to divide by directories, I can help on the copyrights
19:25 kj great; if you can make a list or whatever
19:25 allison kj: would like to have that done before the 0.9.1 release
19:25 kj of directories, that are to stay (c) TPF
19:25 allison kj: none stay TPF
19:25 kj ok, I can spare a bit, but I'd rather not postpone the release too long, otherwise it'll be very late here...
19:26 allison kj: if it's not TPF, then it stays as whatever it is
19:26 kj allison: but what about the exernal perl mdoules?
19:26 kj (you just said...)
19:26 allison external perl modules aren't TPF, they're various external owners
19:26 kj ooh ok. So bascially, if it's (c) TPF, then it'lll be (c) PF
19:26 allison kj: right
19:26 Util Cancel Q; pmichaud answered in email (rakudo-commits not being fed)
19:26 kj ok, great. that's easy
19:26 kj Q2:
19:27 kj ports/cygwin
19:27 kj there's some patch files
19:27 rurban yep
19:27 kj do we need them?
19:27 rurban that's what I've used for the latest release
19:27 kj (just like to know why there's patch files named parrot-0.8.2-1....)
19:27 rurban I didn't make any 0.9.0
19:28 rurban 0.8.2-1 is the latest release
19:28 kj rurban: ok well I can harass you about this on #parrot, is that ok with you? (so we can move on here)
19:28 allison kj: those don't go into a release tarball, so really doesn't matter
19:29 kj that's automated? ( I mean, they'll be excluded automatically?)
19:30 allison kj: yes, the whole ports/ directory is excluded from the tarball
19:30 kj (in the mean time, Q3, last one: .include search order, in pdd19 there's a remark saying that the search order may be changed
19:30 kj it's in this ugly {{ NOTE ME }} notation. I'd like to get rid of that
19:31 kj (esp. because we mark pdd19 as 'landed' ;-)
19:31 allison kj: feel free to change to a regular sentence in the paragraph
19:31 kj okido. that's clear enough for me
19:31 kj thanks, eoq for now.
19:32 chromatic NotFound?
19:32 NotFound Install paths and compiling extern/embed: #include "parrot/*.h" will not work if we have include/parrot/release-number/*.h
19:33 allison NotFound: yes, need to strip the leading "parrot/" and just use "*.h"
19:34 allison NotFound: also need to move all .h files into include/parrot, instead of scattered all over the repository.
19:34 NotFound allison: that can be confusing, we have header names too generic
19:34 kj like string.h
19:35 allison NotFound: yes, but they're buried in a subdirectory, only accessed if someone explicitly adds -I
19:35 allison alternatively we can name everything parrot_*.h
19:35 allison but hardcoding paths is a disaster for an install
19:36 allison (this is the current problem that's biting me on building dynoplibs and dynpmcs from an installed Parrot)
19:36 rurban make includizer
19:37 spinclad .oO { <libdir>/parrot/<release-number>/include/parrot/ , and #include "parrot/*.h" ? }
19:37 allison spinclad: was <libdir>/parrot/<release-number>/*.h
19:37 allison spinclad: but I had to change it to <libdir>/parrot/<release-number>/parrot/*.h to work
19:37 NotFound I think a directory is better than a name prefix, because it can be symbollic linked into
19:38 allison you don't want to symbolically link include directories
19:38 allison the name prefix means it's always the same everywhere
19:38 NotFound allison: lots of packagers do it
19:39 allison you -I the directory, and you get the files, doesn't matter where they are
19:39 Infinoid NotFound: The two are not mutually exclusive.
19:40 NotFound Infinoid: if you have a directory, not
19:41 Infinoid <libdir>/parrot/<release-number>/include is enough of a directory to symlink to if you need to choose which version you want to build against
19:41 chromatic Are there any other questions for #ps, or should we move to #parrot?
19:41 rurban symlinks dont work on windows
19:41 allison chromatic: yes, this is a discussion for later
19:42 NotFound Ok
19:43 * spinclad -> Infinoid.question { ... }
19:43 chromatic Any other questions?  kj, did we get all of yours?
19:43 kj chromatic: yes all my qs were answered, thx
19:43 chromatic spinclad?
19:43 Infinoid Is everyone happy with dalek's behavior?  The poor bot's now tracking 18 rss feeds, I've bumped up the polling interval accordingly.
19:44 Infinoid I'm looking for more things to track, dropped commits, formatting errors...
19:44 NotFound Infinoid: looks like sometimes it miss parrot commits
19:45 Infinoid NotFound: Recently?  I applied a fix 3 or 4 days ago which I hoped would fix that
19:45 Infinoid (trac was taking too long to generate the changeset page to parse the filenames from)
19:45 NotFound Infinoid: not sure, maybe fixed, then
19:45 Infinoid If you see it happen again, please yell at me, loudly.
19:46 Infinoid Okay.  Anyway, if anyone has a problem with dalek, you guys know where to find me.
19:46 Infinoid eoq
19:46 chromatic Other questions?
19:47 chromatic Okay, let's call it a week.
19:47 chromatic Finish those milestones, but don't get in kj's way.
19:47 chromatic left #parrotsketch
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