Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-03-10

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Time Nick Message
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18:27 Coke Early greetings.
18:28 Tene Hi!
18:30 moritz hello
18:30 Whiteknight hello
18:30 moritz it's time now
18:30 barney Hallo
18:30 NotFound hi
18:30 Coke Alright. lacking a chromatic, I'll lead.
18:30 cotto hi
18:31 Coke My report:
18:31 Coke - another issue of TWIP, this one rather lame and placeholdery.
18:31 Coke - cleaned up some of the experimental ops. (TT #415 for the rest)
18:31 Coke - moved languages/APL to http://code.google.com/p/paraplegic/
18:31 Coke - make test harness use new runcore options and ripped out the old ones. some of the tests rely on the old short versions, much of the fallout fixed by rg++. [1]
18:31 Coke - minor progress trying to get 'make examples_tests' 100% clean by 1.0 - may involve deleting extremly old, broken examples.
18:31 Coke [1] Highlights that once something is deprecated and a replacement exists, we should start warning on the old behavior so we can quickly remove any old usage. We tried to do that for the runcore options, but failed; and the warnings from the old "-j" options were swallowed by the harness. So we thought we had fixed this months ago but hadn't.
18:31 Coke .
18:31 Coke Whiteknight?
18:31 Whiteknight * Been spending most of my time working on Matrixy, the new M-on-Parrot compiler
18:31 Whiteknight * Testing on Ubuntu8.10 x86_64, WinVista x86_64, and WinVista x86. Opening tickets as I find errors.
18:31 Whiteknight * Calling conventions work on hold till after the release for stability.
18:31 Whiteknight EOR
18:32 Coke Thanks.
18:32 Coke barney?
18:32 barney Pipp:
18:32 barney Worked on building, testing and installing outside the parrot tree.
18:32 barney http;//pipp.org now redirects to http://wiki.github.com/bschmalhofer/pipp
18:32 barney cotto++ fixed critical bug.
18:32 barney .eor
18:32 Coke Danke.
18:32 Coke Since you mentioned cotto... cotto?
18:32 cotto * converted more PMCs to ATTRs
18:32 cotto - Continuation (+ RetContinuation, ExceptionHandler)
18:32 cotto - ParrotLibrary
18:32 cotto - ParrotInterpreter (+ ParrotThread, ParrotRunningThread)
18:32 cotto - Rational, GDBMHash
18:32 cotto - FixedPMCArray (+ ResizablePMCArray )
18:32 cotto * no HLL breakage thanks to the wonders of VTABLE functions
18:32 cotto * the remaining PMCs (Hash and ManagedStruct families) should be easy, having no impact on HLLs
18:32 cotto EOR
18:33 cotto q1q
18:33 cotto interesting order, btw
18:33 * allison here
18:33 Coke Thanks. Alphabetical is officially out of date.
18:33 moritz so web 1.0 ;-)
18:33 Coke moritz, you're up.
18:33 moritz * some Rakudo hacking
18:34 moritz * trying to answer Rakudo questions on #perl6 - they seem to increase
18:34 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
18:34 moritz * spent rest of my free time writing articles about Perl 6
18:34 moritz * observed that Rakudo works fine on optimized parrot (on amd64)
18:34 moritz .eor
18:34 Coke (optimized parrot) nice.
18:34 Coke NotFound, you're up.
18:34 moritz aye ;-)
18:34 NotFound * Some more work in extend/embed
18:35 kj joined #parrotsketch
18:35 NotFound * Added the program pbc_checker
18:35 NotFound * Working on annotations, showing them in traces and backtraces
18:35 NotFound * Miscellaneous cleans and fixes
18:35 NotFound EOR
18:36 Coke danke.
18:36 * kj comes in late, without a report due to $work
18:36 Coke so reported.
18:36 Coke chromatic, how goes?
18:37 chromatic Working on the bug triaging guidelines; will have a draft in a couple of hours.
18:37 chromatic q1q about where to put it.
18:37 * Util here
18:37 Coke util, shoot.
18:37 Util Many typos and codingstd fixes.
18:38 Util More to come.
18:38 Util `make fulltest` vs `make fulltest_all` in TT#432 resolved.
18:38 Util Fixing copyright formatting, toward re-enabling the .t that is skipping it.
18:38 Util Emailing remaining copyright hold-outs.
18:38 Util Alert: main LICENSE file says "Perl Foundation"!
18:38 Util Found evidence of a a hole in the release procedures, causing parrot.spec and other files edited during the release to to have DOS line-endings, only in the tarball. Ticket in the works.
18:39 Util Plan to continue along these lines until after the 1.0 release, then to help Infinoid with docs.
18:39 Util EOR
18:39 Coke q1q in response to util.
18:40 Coke allison, i think you're all that's left. anyone else have a report but hasn't spoken up yet?
18:40 pmichaud (here, hadn't spoken up yet)
18:40 * Tene
18:41 Coke ok. tene?
18:41 Coke (whoops, I missed you from the early responders.)
18:41 Tene Giving a presentation on PCT to the local LUG tomorrow.  .EOR
18:41 Tene (You didn't say a *good* report)
18:41 Coke well, let's follow that up with patrick, who no doubt will make up for you in volume. =-)
18:42 Coke (with pmichaud, in case he's filtering on his nick. =-)
18:42 pmichaud doubtful, today. =-)
18:42 pmichaud Primarily I've been working on rakudo tasks, documentation for developers and cleaning up rakudo tickets
18:42 pmichaud I expect to spend the next day or so closing out my parrot release tasks
18:43 pmichaud I'm also reviewing the impact of recent Perl 6 specification changes on PGE and PCT -- q1q regarding this
18:43 pmichaud EOR
18:43 Coke alrightee.
18:43 Coke (you still beat tene.)
18:43 Coke Allison, you're up.
18:43 allison - Ticket maintenance, applied patches, fixed bugs, answered questions.
18:44 allison - Test failure review, fix/TODO/skip.
18:44 allison - Worked on Debian/Ubuntu packaging, prepping for 1.0.
18:44 allison - Documentation cleanup, revisions for clarity, revisions for out-of-date content, revisions for coding standards, gave 'make html' a detailed TOC, added version number to generated HTML.
18:44 allison EOR & q1q
18:44 Coke alright. my question for util was resolved in #parrot, so I'm done.
18:44 Coke let's jump to chromatic's which is hopefully quick.
18:45 chromatic Where should I put the bug triaging guidelines document?
18:45 allison chromatic: docs/project seems sensible
18:45 Coke +1
18:45 chromatic docs/project/bug_triaging.pod ?
18:46 Coke perhaps the more generic "issue..."
18:47 Coke but I don't care that much.
18:47 Coke docs/project/bug_triaging.pod it is.
18:47 allison either is good
18:47 Coke alrightee. Cotto?
18:48 cotto There are two groups of PMCs left to convert to ATTRs (Hash and ManagedStruct).  Assuming that all tests pass (and rakudo's make test is happy), what's the latest I should commit changes to these PMCs before the 1.0 release?
18:48 Coke before the weekend, I'd say.
18:48 chromatic It'd be nice to have at least all day Sunday and Monday to review smokes and fix things.
18:49 cotto sounds good
18:49 Whiteknight cotto, you need any help with that?
18:49 Whiteknight I'll take one if you take the other, etc
18:49 Coke You can divvy it up in #parrot. =-)
18:50 Util q1q
18:50 Coke Util: just go now. =-)
18:50 cotto eoq
18:50 Util Will languages/cola leave the nest before parrot's 1.0 release?
18:50 Util Melvin Smith's copyright statements are the biggest block to un-SKIPping t/codingstd/copyright.t test#2.
18:50 allison Util: yes
18:50 Coke Util: it will be deleted, if nothing else.
18:50 Util Thanks.
18:50 Coke pmichaud: shoot.
18:51 Tene q1q
18:51 pmichaud This past week has seen a lot of substantial changes to Match objects (what gets produced by PGE)
18:51 pmichaud in the Perl 6 specification
18:51 pmichaud both PGE and the compiler toolkit will need to be updated to match the spec
18:52 pmichaud which means we have a deprecation issue
18:52 pmichaud if I put notes for all of the deprecations into the current trunk (and in the 1.0 release) -- will anyone have an issue if they get removed shortly thereafter?
18:52 allison this has happened before, and we did parallel development for a while, and then deprecated the old one
18:52 Coke pmichaud: no, that's the plan on deprecations.
18:52 pmichaud this isn't something that's conducive to parallel development.
18:52 pmichaud before the issue was syntax changes -- so I could implement the new syntax while supporting the old.
18:53 pmichaud The new changes are fundamentally semantic.
18:53 Coke put in the deprecation notices now so they're in the release; then as soon as 1.0 is cut you can change it.
18:53 allison ok, then yes, standard deprecation policy, which means you can make the changes right after 1.0 if needed
18:53 Coke (sooner the better, so more testing before 1.4)
18:53 Coke all set?
18:53 pmichaud okay.  Where possible I will try to support the deprecated stuff until other languages have time to switch over, but some things might break shortly after 1.0.
18:54 pmichaud thanks.
18:54 Coke as long as it's shortly after and not before. =-)
18:54 Coke tene, you're next.
18:54 Tene How urgent is the request I saw on the ML to move languages out of trunk?
18:54 Tene Do I need to relocate cardinal and lolcode?
18:55 allison Tene: this leads into my question
18:55 Tene I've only vaguely been kinda following it.
18:55 Coke then lets jump to allison's question. =-)
18:55 allison The languages/ directory is going away today (or within the next couple of days)
18:55 pmichaud I'm planning to move pynie to squawk
18:55 allison pmichaud: I'd rather move pynie to a dedicated repository
18:56 allison not within any umbrella repository
18:56 pmichaud okay, I can create a dedicated one then.  Googlecode, I guess?
18:56 allison don't care if it's git or svn, though
18:56 allison googlecode sounds good (since Guido works there)
18:56 pmichaud one potential pynie developer I spoke with thought that svn might be better than git for acceptance
18:56 allison pmichaud: okay, useful info
18:57 allison My general Q: Other languages to move before I start relocating the remaining ones?
18:57 pmichaud where will abc and lolcode go?
18:57 allison I've currently got:
18:57 allison - abc, lolcode, and squaak -> examples/languages
18:57 allison - pheme, dotnet, c99, pod, json, PIR, ecmascript -> svn.parrot.org/languages
18:57 allison - cardinal -> ? dedicated repository?
18:57 Tene I'll put it on github
18:58 pmichaud for cardinal I highly recommend github
18:58 pmichaud Tene:  would you like me to do the transfer (preserving history), since I already did it once for rakudo?
18:58 Coke OOC, why is lolcode going to examples ?
18:58 allison Everything else that hasn't already been claimed or moved, is deleted.
18:58 Tene pmichaud: sure, that would be great
18:58 Coke (and not to svn.parrot.org/languages)
18:59 allison Coke: someone suggested it, don't remember who, would be just as happy to put it in the languages repo
18:59 pmichaud Tene: do we need a special cardinal account on github, or shall I just do it into mine (and someone can pull from there into a new master repo)?
18:59 chromatic lolcode has to go to examples/ so we can have a Perl 6 to lolcode converter.
18:59 Coke chromatic: ok, you win.
18:59 pmichaud actually, the lolcode conversion becomes part of PCT :-P
18:59 cotto +a lot
18:59 allison chromatic: :) we can do that in the languages repo too :)
18:59 Tene pmichaud: I don't know the benefits of having a dedicated account.
19:00 Coke that can be hashed out in #parrot. Any other language related questions?
19:00 pmichaud Tene: in rakudo's case, I did it primarily so that Rakudo wouldn't be attached to me personally.
19:00 Coke (and, any other reports we're missing?)
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19:00 pmichaud Also, I could potentially give out the password to rakudo's account on github to trusted folks without having to give out my own password.
19:01 pmichaud (so there can be multiple meta-maintainers)
19:01 allison pmichaud: the same reason (not attached to person) seems to make sense for cardinal too
19:01 pmichaud we'll create a separate account for it.
19:01 Coke +1
19:02 Coke Anyone have any other business? I have a general comment about documentation; we all need to be better about writing down decisions and pruning old stuff out of the repository. I suspect we'll see a lot of cleanup in the next week in that area as we get close to the 1.0 release. (I know that would have avoided some on-list confusion this week.)
19:03 Tene I know I've said it before, but I plan to work on docs the coming week.
19:03 Coke +1
19:03 NotFound Forgot I have a question
19:03 Coke nooooo
19:03 pmichaud (better than having a forgotten question)
19:03 Coke er, notfound, typo there. go ahead.
19:03 NotFound Short, I promise
19:03 allison Coke: +1 on documentation
19:04 NotFound pdd13 description of segmente header lacks some fields. Must we make it to refelect current state?
19:04 Coke yes, even if only to say "these fields exist but will be removed."
19:04 Infinoid peanut gallery: pdd13 is also out of date with regards to annotations
19:05 allison NotFound/Infinoid: could you submit patches or make fixes to pdd13 for segment header and annotations?
19:05 NotFound And they will be removed? There are no comments in the code indicating that.
19:06 NotFound And one of them is actually used in several segment types.
19:06 Infinoid I don't understand jonathan++'s recent annotations changes well enough to patch pdd13, otherwise I would love to.
19:06 Coke NotFound: my comment wasn't meant to imply that was the case, merely that it was a possibility.
19:06 allison NotFound: generally, the PDD reflects future plans, but something missing could either be intentionally excluded or simply missed
19:06 Coke in /either/ case, they should be in the docs.
19:07 cotto q1q (quick)
19:07 Infinoid in the case of annotations, pdd13 is outdated, not the current state of parrot
19:07 allison and, yes, need to be documented, we can make a decision later
19:07 allison Infinoid: then pdd13 definitely needs to be updated
19:07 Coke so, updates to pdd13 needed; a ticket to trac progress on that might be good.
19:07 NotFound allison: I think an accurate description of the current format is a must-have.
19:07 Coke agreed, even if it is subject to change.
19:07 allison NotFound: yes
19:08 Coke alrightee. cotto, you're back on the list. Shoot.
19:08 cotto Should docs/pmc.pod (which I'll be updating) be moved to docs/pmc/pmc.pod or otherwise renamed?
19:08 Coke docs/pmc/*.pod is for pod from pmcs.
19:08 allison cotto: leave it where it is
19:08 Coke generic docs about pmcs can probably stay in docs.
19:09 cotto ok.  I'll update it in-place.
19:09 cotto eoq
19:09 Coke woot. the queue is empty.
19:09 Coke allison, I'll let you close it out with something heartfelt about next week's release, and we can all hold hands and hum.
19:10 NotFound Infinoid: What is the problem with annotations? I managed to work with them without much problem.
19:10 allison Oooooohm...
19:10 Infinoid NotFound: the PMC API documented in PDD13 doesn't reflect the current layout of structures and functions
19:10 NotFound Infinoid: ah, fine, I was looking just at the pbc format.
19:11 Infinoid Some extra stuff was added after pdd13 was written, and some things have been moved around
19:11 Infinoid Yeah, and I'm just looking at the API :)
19:11 allison I'm planning to generate the tarball early this month, and pass it around for platform testing.
19:11 allison (that is, early on release day)
19:11 NotFound Infinoid: in the api part, I'd like to discuss a bit the lookup function.
19:12 NotFound But out of #ps, better
19:12 Infinoid NotFound: yeah, moving to #parrot
19:13 Coke allison: all set/
19:13 Coke ?
19:13 allison yup
19:13 allison Thanks everybody!
19:13 Coke 7 days until 1.0; Tell your friends.
19:13 Coke .
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