| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 04:46 |
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| 06:07 |
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| 15:38 |
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| 17:13 |
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| 17:35 |
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NotFound joined #parrotsketch |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
I'm out, so posted before: |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
- Preparing cygwin release for 1.0.0 |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
- Weird perl5 File::Temp errors suddenly on one machine, |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
so missed to implement one File::Temp problem for 1.0 TT #326: |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
widechars in $TEMP, as in chinese usernames (jimmy) |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
Workaround: SET TEMP=C:\temp |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
- Testing 1.0.0, updated native_pbc's for intel |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
- openbsd keeps crashing on me, no test coverage. All other platforms are ok. |
| 17:44 |
rurban |
- sorry for my post-1.0 pbc policy outrage, seems to be settled now. |
| 17:45 |
rurban |
EOR |
| 17:45 |
|
shoe joined #parrotsketch |
| 17:45 |
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PacoLinux joined #parrotsketch |
| 18:20 |
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allison joined #parrotsketch |
| 18:28 |
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masak joined #parrotsketch |
| 18:32 |
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barney joined #parrotsketch |
| 18:33 |
allison |
no Coke or chromatic, I see |
| 18:33 |
allison |
who's here? |
| 18:33 |
* masak |
|
| 18:33 |
* Util |
|
| 18:33 |
cotto |
hi |
| 18:33 |
NotFound |
hi |
| 18:34 |
barney |
hello |
| 18:34 |
allison |
let's get started, in reverse alphabetical order |
| 18:34 |
allison |
Whiteknight? |
| 18:35 |
allison |
Util? |
| 18:35 |
Util |
Done: Mostly cage cleaning; codingstd and typos |
| 18:35 |
Util |
Working on: |
| 18:35 |
Util |
Probe for __attribute__format is broken on GCC. (Fixed here; will ticket and commit by tommorow. This will turn on a few more warnings in --cage mode.) |
| 18:35 |
Util |
Ovid's email from March 16 - "most links are broken on: http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/info.html" (q1q on site's gatekeeper) |
| 18:35 |
Util |
Win32 - Porting Parrot to MinGW-TDM (gcc 4.3.0) (So far, just a 5 line patch enables the Parrot-1.0.0 tarball to pass all `make test*` variants, except 3 nci.t bombs) |
| 18:36 |
Util |
New document - Some form of "how to play with Parrot-1.0 on Win32 with GCC" |
| 18:36 |
Util |
EOR |
| 18:36 |
allison |
ujwalic? |
| 18:36 |
ujwalic |
yep |
| 18:37 |
allison |
would you like to report anything? |
| 18:37 |
ujwalic |
Hi All and congrats :) |
| 18:37 |
ujwalic |
Win32 XP fine |
| 18:38 |
allison |
pmichaud? |
| 18:38 |
allison |
particle? |
| 18:39 |
allison |
NotFound? |
| 18:39 |
NotFound |
* Document current practice in pdd13 |
| 18:39 |
NotFound |
* Fixing and improving pbc_checker |
| 18:39 |
NotFound |
* Miscellaneous fixes and cleaning |
| 18:39 |
NotFound |
eor |
| 18:40 |
allison |
masak? |
| 18:40 |
masak |
* much fruitful work on some Perl 6 projects: proto, Web.pm, Druid. |
| 18:40 |
masak |
* reported a few bugs, not as many as usual. |
| 18:40 |
masak |
* overall very happy with Rakudo right now. |
| 18:40 |
masak |
* planning to work on Rakudo's &unpack tonight. |
| 18:40 |
masak |
* things I'm curious how to do in Parrot: utf-8 decoding, port I/O |
| 18:40 |
masak |
.eor |
| 18:41 |
|
chromatic joined #parrotsketch |
| 18:41 |
allison |
Gej? |
| 18:41 |
allison |
cotto? |
| 18:41 |
cotto |
* tried to convert Hash-like PMCs to ATTRS, realized that src/hash.c needs to make fewer assumptions about PMC internals |
| 18:41 |
cotto |
* currently have code for the following changes ready to commit post-1.0: |
| 18:41 |
cotto |
- refactor src/hash.c functions to return Hash* instead of using ARGOUT Hash** args |
| 18:41 |
cotto |
- remove an unused function with a questionable comment (parrot_new_hash_x) |
| 18:41 |
cotto |
* wrote a fuzzer for Parrot using fusil |
| 18:41 |
cotto |
EOR |
| 18:41 |
cotto |
q1q |
| 18:42 |
allison |
chromatic? |
| 18:42 |
chromatic |
Fixed some test failures, diagnosed some weird bugs. |
| 18:42 |
chromatic |
EOR |
| 18:42 |
allison |
barney? |
| 18:42 |
barney |
Parrot: |
| 18:42 |
barney |
added fetch_languages.pl |
| 18:42 |
barney |
Pipp: |
| 18:42 |
barney |
Put *.pbc into library/pipp_library |
| 18:42 |
barney |
worked on 'make install' |
| 18:42 |
barney |
.eor |
| 18:43 |
allison |
allison: |
| 18:43 |
allison |
- All languages/ migrated out of repository. |
| 18:43 |
allison |
- Ticket maintenance, applied patches, fixed bugs, answered questions. |
| 18:43 |
allison |
- Test failure review, fix/TODO/skip. |
| 18:43 |
allison |
- Removed some ancient examples |
| 18:44 |
allison |
- Documentation cleanup. |
| 18:44 |
allison |
- Release process for 1.0. |
| 18:44 |
allison |
- Generated test 1.0 packages for Debian/Ubuntu. |
| 18:44 |
allison |
EOR |
| 18:44 |
allison |
did I miss anyone? |
| 18:45 |
allison |
okay, questions queued from Util and cotto |
| 18:45 |
allison |
Util, go ahead |
| 18:46 |
Util |
Who is the gatekeeper for docs.parrot.org? How to access to update? |
| 18:46 |
allison |
docs.parrot.org is generated from the monthly release tarball |
| 18:47 |
allison |
currently, Coke is the maintainer |
| 18:47 |
allison |
so, the 0.9.1 docs won't be changed, but the 1.0.0 docs will be added and "latest" will point to them |
| 18:47 |
Util |
Shouldn't there be a branch with true latest (last nightly build) docs? |
| 18:48 |
allison |
that's 'make html' |
| 18:48 |
allison |
the target audience for docs.parrot.org isn't developers working on the repository, it's release users |
| 18:49 |
Util |
So any updates needed after release must wait for next release? |
| 18:49 |
allison |
yes |
| 18:50 |
allison |
4 weeks is a pretty short cycle |
| 18:50 |
Util |
Hmmm. OK for now. Thx. I will follow-up with Coke for access if needed, but your answer removes my immediate need. EOQ. |
| 18:50 |
chromatic |
Our documentation rides the short cycle. |
| 18:51 |
allison |
cotto, your question? |
| 18:51 |
cotto |
After the release, should I put my fuzzer somewhere in svn, e.g. tools/dev? |
| 18:51 |
cotto |
It's written in Python with some external library dependencies, but it could be useful for other devs. |
| 18:51 |
cotto |
i.e. if we start running out of bugs |
| 18:52 |
allison |
cotto: sure, we won't make the dependencies a Parrot build dependency, but can include it anyway |
| 18:52 |
cotto |
ok. I'll make sure it's adequately documented. |
| 18:52 |
cotto |
eoq |
| 18:52 |
barney |
what does it do? |
| 18:52 |
cotto |
it generates somewhat random pir |
| 18:53 |
barney |
cotto++ |
| 18:53 |
chromatic |
I had a Perl program to do that a couple of years ago. It's definitely worthwhile. |
| 18:55 |
allison |
next question, any release blockers? |
| 18:56 |
allison |
sounds like no |
| 18:56 |
allison |
any other questions? |
| 18:56 |
NotFound |
BTW, verified C++ buildability right now with r37527 |
| 18:57 |
allison |
excellent, thanks! |
| 18:57 |
allison |
roadmap review: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotRoadmap |
| 18:58 |
allison |
verify Parrot release build against external HLLs and tools? |
| 18:58 |
allison |
landed |
| 18:58 |
allison |
implement pdd14-numbers (rescheduled from 0.9.0)? |
| 18:59 |
allison |
missed/rescheduled, but where should we reschedule it to? |
| 18:59 |
allison |
1.4? 2.0? |
| 18:59 |
chromatic |
1.4 is okay. |
| 19:00 |
allison |
mmd & subclasses (resolve mmd tickets) (rescheduled from 0.9.1)? |
| 19:00 |
allison |
I did review/fix/resolve a number of mmd tickets, but still more remaining |
| 19:01 |
allison |
calling it partial/reschedule, and adding to 1.3 |
| 19:01 |
allison |
parrot user documentation, objects, pmcs, dynops, etc (rescheduled from 0.9.0)? |
| 19:01 |
allison |
landed |
| 19:02 |
allison |
(there's always more documentation work to do, but the big push is done, and I'm satisfied with what's going into 1.0) |
| 19:02 |
allison |
adding attributes to existing classes, remove existing exceptions? |
| 19:03 |
chromatic |
As far as I know, that's been done for a while. |
| 19:03 |
chromatic |
If there's more to do there, I don't know what it is. |
| 19:03 |
allison |
okay, landed |
| 19:03 |
allison |
pdd29-pct user doc? |
| 19:04 |
allison |
landed |
| 19:04 |
allison |
web site updates? |
| 19:04 |
allison |
landed |
| 19:04 |
allison |
(again, ongoing task, but push is done) |
| 19:05 |
allison |
excellent, we're looking good there |
| 19:05 |
allison |
any other questions/comments? |
| 19:05 |
chromatic |
Retrospective? |
| 19:05 |
NotFound |
Who pays the beers for St Patrick's day? |
| 19:06 |
allison |
NotFound: have a virtual beer, it's free |
| 19:06 |
|
moritz joined #parrotsketch |
| 19:06 |
NotFound |
Thanks |
| 19:06 |
barney |
Today I installed Cygwin @work. It was nice to see Parrot in the repository. |
| 19:06 |
allison |
chromatic: do you have some leading questions for a Retrospective? |
| 19:07 |
chromatic |
What went right? |
| 19:07 |
chromatic |
What went wrong? |
| 19:07 |
chromatic |
Why why why why why? |
| 19:07 |
chromatic |
That's also the first verse of the new chromatic and the agilists single, "I Will Retrospect You in the Morning, Baby". |
| 19:08 |
Util |
Moving to a regular release schedule was a big plus. |
| 19:09 |
allison |
Adding milestone tasks for each release has worked well. |
| 19:09 |
chromatic |
Milestone tasks did seem to help. |
| 19:10 |
allison |
Our estimation skills still need work (guessing how much can be completed in a month), but are improving. |
| 19:10 |
chromatic |
I think (but can't prove) our ticket handling skills have improved too. |
| 19:10 |
allison |
And, at least for critical tasks, we hit it bang on the nose for what needed to happen when. |
| 19:10 |
allison |
chromatic: yes, I think so too |
| 19:11 |
chromatic |
Other things that went right? |
| 19:11 |
chromatic |
Weekly milestone review was a plus. |
| 19:11 |
allison |
yes, good process addition |
| 19:11 |
wknight8111 |
(weekly milestone review)++ |
| 19:12 |
Util |
Ditto the bus-number-raising rotation of release managers. Quality of the RM's doc went up. |
| 19:12 |
Tene |
YAY MILESTONES! |
| 19:12 |
Util |
Also, we are no longer burning out key people (AFAIK) |
| 19:12 |
chromatic |
I'm not so sure about that. |
| 19:12 |
allison |
Util: more importantly, people burning out isn't a project blocker |
| 19:13 |
Util |
True |
| 19:13 |
allison |
volunteer projects always have a "guard-changing" cycle |
| 19:13 |
allison |
people come, people go, people return and go again |
| 19:13 |
chromatic |
Other successes? |
| 19:14 |
ujwalic |
(welcoming community)++ |
| 19:14 |
allison |
Yes, I've been pleased at the increasing community size. |
| 19:14 |
NotFound |
Portability of bytecode is going well |
| 19:14 |
Tene |
The prolific parrot bloggers were what got me to start contributing. |
| 19:15 |
ujwalic |
me too |
| 19:16 |
chromatic |
Okay. What didn't work? |
| 19:16 |
Util |
Humor++ ; pmichaud's LOLCODE video has gotten at least 4 PerlMongers to play with Parrot. |
| 19:16 |
chromatic |
I'll start: our estimate on amount of work we can do in a milestone seems to be optimistic by at least a factor of two. |
| 19:17 |
Util |
Moving to svn.parrot.org without a definite plan for Rakudo's new home. Caused much chaos, and delays in commits. |
| 19:17 |
allison |
chromatic: I think that's a snowball effect |
| 19:18 |
allison |
chromatic: that is, it started off as 1-2 tasks off, and collected 1-2 more each month |
| 19:18 |
NotFound |
Yeah, lots of things depends on other things being done. |
| 19:18 |
chromatic |
Sure, we slipped half of the things in the first month. |
| 19:18 |
allison |
chromatic: so, we need to get smarter about rescheduling missed tasks, and not bump them all to the next month |
| 19:19 |
chromatic |
Maybe we need to change the way we schedule. Pick the most critical tasks and schedule them throughout the six month milestone period. |
| 19:19 |
chromatic |
Then every month, pick a couple of "would be nice" tasks. |
| 19:19 |
chromatic |
I think (but can't prove) we're better off having more contributors on a task than one or two. |
| 19:19 |
allison |
the distribution of critical tasks we did at PDS |
| 19:20 |
allison |
the "would be nice" is a good idea |
| 19:20 |
allison |
or, specifically adding a "non-critical" status |
| 19:20 |
Tene |
I remember several times (mostly before PDS) where I had available tuits, but had trouble finding work to do. I don't know if that's a Parrot failure or a Tene failure. |
| 19:21 |
chromatic |
We're still not great at breaking milestones into concrete task lists. |
| 19:21 |
allison |
Tene: yes, I remember you asked for documentation work, and I didn't have specific tasks to hand you (though I know there's plenty to be done) |
| 19:22 |
Tene |
I remember trying to work on some of the PDD milestone tasks, asking "Okay, what does this actually mean for me to do?" and had trouble finding an answer. |
| 19:23 |
allison |
adding specific tickets to the roadmap items has helped, that may be a way to continue improving |
| 19:23 |
NotFound |
Sometimes the problem is to figure if the docs need updating or the code must change to meet the docs. |
| 19:24 |
chromatic |
There's no substitute for a list of the next discrete and concrete tasks. |
| 19:24 |
particle |
self-organizing-project-management++ |
| 19:24 |
NotFound |
Open a ticket for each item, to at least have a site to ask for clarifications. |
| 19:25 |
moritz |
well, sometimes people want to managed by others |
| 19:25 |
allison |
aye, even with the addition of roadmap and tickets, I still keep a Hiveminder list of what I personally should/could be working on |
| 19:25 |
moritz |
we should offer them guidance, and concerte tasks to do |
| 19:25 |
Tene |
I've had the feeling a few times that too much of our architecture and plan exist only in Allison's head. |
| 19:25 |
chromatic |
I find it really hard to work with Trac. |
| 19:25 |
allison |
Tene: yes, I could use help with documentation there |
| 19:26 |
allison |
I plan to spend much of the next several years writing |
| 19:26 |
allison |
first up, publish the parrot book in the next couple of weeks |
| 19:26 |
chromatic |
We still have code cleanliness issues. |
| 19:27 |
allison |
chromatic: I find Trac enormously easier than RT |
| 19:27 |
chromatic |
I don't. |
| 19:27 |
allison |
I don't know about other people, but it is primarily responsible for my increased productivity in ticket processing |
| 19:27 |
chromatic |
Every time I want to do something, I have to navigate to a web page, log in, and then type in a little box. |
| 19:27 |
chromatic |
I get four or five times the mail than I did with RT. |
| 19:27 |
chromatic |
I can't respond to tickets through email. |
| 19:28 |
Tene |
We've had several problems with branches not being finished and not getting merged and falling out of date. |
| 19:28 |
particle |
chromatic: we'll always have cleanliness issues, but i think our cage cleaners have done excellent work, and i expect that will only get better. |
| 19:28 |
chromatic |
Tene, that's why I think having only one or two people on a branch may be a problem. |
| 19:28 |
particle |
lack of email responses causes me not to use trac. |
| 19:28 |
allison |
Tene: I take that as evolution, the dying branches were generally not the right solution |
| 19:28 |
particle |
we need to smoke branches |
| 19:29 |
Tene |
Is the GC stuff salvageable, or even still around? |
| 19:29 |
allison |
Tene: a good branch is small (or substantial) changes merged in quickly |
| 19:29 |
chromatic |
We need to smoke branches, and I wouldn't mind pruning all branches older than a month. |
| 19:29 |
chromatic |
Re: Trac and email, I agree with particle. I've not responded to several tickets because Trac was too much of a hassle on the web. |
| 19:29 |
allison |
Tene: the gc stuff that was merged in was good, the other wasn't the right approach |
| 19:30 |
wknight8111 |
lots of work to do on the GC still, but the cleaner interface is a big help |
| 19:30 |
Util |
particle: add yourself to the 'Cc' field of the ticket |
| 19:30 |
chromatic |
Speaking of the GC, I think some of the closed tickets were redefined right before closing to "The scope of this ticket was whatever we managed to get done, so I'm closing the ticket now." |
| 19:31 |
barney |
low performance is a big issue |
| 19:31 |
allison |
chromatic: sounds odd, feel free to do a ticket review |
| 19:31 |
wknight8111 |
those tickets were mostly vague, we need to open and manage more-specific tickets in the future for that kind of stuff |
| 19:32 |
chromatic |
The GC refactor ticket in particular. |
| 19:32 |
wknight8111 |
the "implement a better GC eventually" kind of ticket is a poor one |
| 19:32 |
allison |
wknight: agreed |
| 19:32 |
chromatic |
That's why I'd like to see a list of concrete, discrete tasks for milestone items. |
| 19:32 |
allison |
chromatic: for the big refactors, we had that on a wiki page |
| 19:32 |
chromatic |
It's easy to argue back and forth "Did we meet the expectations of this vague description?" |
| 19:32 |
chromatic |
I mean for milestone tasks. |
| 19:33 |
chromatic |
I think that'll help our estimates too. |
| 19:33 |
allison |
perhaps big/critical milestones should have a wiki page too |
| 19:33 |
wknight8111 |
Things like the GC should be the milestones, and list subtasks under that |
| 19:34 |
spinclad |
part of ticket work could be refining the task, cloning/depending new subtasks |
| 19:34 |
chromatic |
Is that duplicating information between Trac and the Wiki? |
| 19:35 |
spinclad |
(looking at debian's process) |
| 19:35 |
|
diakopter joined #parrotsketch |
| 19:36 |
NotFound |
If the ticket is really too bad, better reject it and open a new one. |
| 19:36 |
allison |
chromatic: well, some things are tickets, some things are working tasklists |
| 19:36 |
chromatic |
I don't see a lot of value in making every task into a ticket. Maybe I'm missing something. |
| 19:36 |
allison |
chromatic: for new development, it's far easier to set out a page of "this is what we're doing for this task" than to navigate a hundred tickets |
| 19:37 |
allison |
chromatic: yes, we're on the same page |
| 19:37 |
chromatic |
I suppose I can write up a list of milestone handling recommendations. |
| 19:38 |
NotFound |
A ticket with a link to the wiki page might be helpful in some cases. |
| 19:38 |
chromatic |
Sure; a ticket for the milestone seems appropriate. |
| 19:40 |
chromatic |
Anything else that went wrong? |
| 19:41 |
NotFound |
We still have to maintain imcc |
| 19:43 |
chromatic |
Any suggestions for improvement? |
| 19:44 |
allison |
seems like we've mainly been talking through those as we talked about "what went wrong?" |
| 19:46 |
allison |
I am looking forward to not changing the infrastructure for several years |
| 19:47 |
allison |
it was important, and glad we made the changes, but also glad it's done |
| 19:47 |
chromatic |
Improvement should also discuss "How can we measure the effect of any improvement?" |
| 19:47 |
chromatic |
Branches land more quickly? |
| 19:47 |
chromatic |
We finish milestones more frequently? |
| 19:48 |
Util |
Is anyone working on a Parrot+Languages LiveCD, that we can use as crack^Wteasers at conferences to attract more volunteers? |
| 19:48 |
particle |
"contributors stay on longer, and don't burn out" |
| 19:48 |
chromatic |
wknight8111 gets less bored? |
| 19:48 |
* wknight8111 |
has a disorder :( |
| 19:48 |
particle |
util, i started, and stalled (ENOTIME) |
| 19:49 |
allison |
particle: that's likely impossible (even paid employees burn out and leave) |
| 19:49 |
Util |
particle++ |
| 19:49 |
particle |
allison: sure, but burning out is easier when there's more pain and less fun |
| 19:49 |
particle |
how do you measure -Ofun? |
| 19:49 |
NotFound |
Let's have more fun! |
| 19:49 |
chromatic |
I can measure the absence of -Ofun |
| 19:50 |
Util |
Can we measure out-of-nest interest from tarball download count? |
| 19:50 |
particle |
i have that now |
| 19:50 |
moritz |
in WTFs per miinute. |
| 19:52 |
NotFound |
Util: maybe today a virtual machine is easier to test than a live cd. |
| 19:53 |
Util |
NotFound: perhaps so; my mind is stuck in the ancient past. |
| 19:53 |
NotFound |
And cheaper to distribute. Just plug a usbpen and copy. |
| 19:54 |
chromatic |
Other improvements or measurements/ |
| 19:54 |
Util |
New language count? |
| 19:54 |
NotFound |
Well, at least a linux one. A Windows image may need to pay licenses. |
| 19:56 |
Util |
Retracted - number too low to be a helpful measure |
| 19:56 |
NotFound |
Uh, no, people writing languages just to have a feeling of contributing is not a good thing. |
| 19:57 |
moritz |
uhm. rakudo started to segfault on some tests with parrot HEAD |
| 19:57 |
allison |
moritz: which tests? |
| 19:58 |
moritz |
but I didn't do a realclean before rebuilding, so I'll try that next |
| 19:58 |
NotFound |
Just picking brainfuck-inspired ones from the esotheric languages ring can fill a long list :D |
| 19:58 |
Util |
NotFound: I meant it as: the better we are doing, the more language authors will be attracted to us. |
| 19:58 |
moritz |
allison: t/spec/S32-str/substr.t for example |
| 19:58 |
chromatic |
Anything else we need to discuss in #ps today? |
| 20:00 |
chromatic |
Let's call it a week then. |
| 20:02 |
|
Util left #parrotsketch |
| 20:02 |
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allison |
thanks all! |
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moritz |
ciao, everyone++ |
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