Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-03-31

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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17:17 Whiteknight (posting my report early since I'm going to miss the meeting)
17:17 Whiteknight * Mostly working on the Matrixy compiler. Progress is very rapid indeed (PCT++)
17:18 Whiteknight * Started playing with the Socket PMC, but looks like other people are doing it first
17:18 Whiteknight * Random assorted poking at tickets and digging through code, nothing major
17:18 Whiteknight EOR
17:31 barney joined #parrotsketch
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18:30 Coke ~~
18:30 chromatic Good $LOCALTIME
18:30 moritz hi there
18:31 pmichaud Hello.
18:31 fperrad hello
18:31 Infinoid ohai
18:31 Coke chromatic: you leading the dance today?
18:31 allison hi
18:32 chromatic Will do.  Allison?
18:32 allison Parrot:
18:32 allison - More fixes to Debian Parrot packaging. Parrot 1.0 has now been uploaded to Debian (thanks to our Debian sponsor Colin Watson).
18:32 allison - Ticket review, resolution, closing.
18:32 allison - Added a --disable-rpath configuration flag, for Linux packaging.
18:32 allison Pynie:
18:32 allison - Attended PyCon, including a virtual machine summit before.
18:32 allison - After talking with Guido, Pynie will be targeting Python 3.x, skipping 2.x entirely.
18:32 allison - Applied patches from contributors.
18:32 allison - Added support for the continued line feature and octal integers.
18:32 allison - Added initial debian packaging files.
18:32 allison - Nearly finished porting Pynie's bootstrapping tests to SubUnit, a python-based testing framework (notionally equivalent to Test::Harness), that can integrate with the CPython test suite.
18:32 allison EOR
18:32 * masak is here too
18:32 * Util too
18:32 chromatic I'm working on the *ManagedStruct JIT problem for cotto.
18:33 chromatic Will create a branch to work on reorganizing headers and source files into subsystems today or (likely) tomorrow.
18:33 chromatic barney?
18:33 barney Parrot:
18:33 barney removed some hardcoded 'library' path components in 'load_bytecode' calls
18:33 barney .eor
18:33 chromatic Coke?
18:34 Coke - still haven't gotten back to TWIP. I'm afraid the longer I take, the more I dread it.
18:34 PacoLinux joined #parrotsketch
18:34 Coke - worked on t/codingstd/c_function_docs.t; mainly ensuring at this point that we're counting the already-written documentation.
18:34 Coke - RT down to 379 tickets.
18:34 Coke - there's a parrot 1.0 macport now. I could use help with the devel version, though I'll give it another whack later in the week.
18:34 Coke - trying to resurrect partcl, but need the devel port first.
18:34 Coke -eor
18:34 chromatic cotto?
18:35 cotto * almost have all PMCs converted to ATTRs
18:35 cotto - am blocking on some jit-related code (TT #365, TT #519)
18:35 cotto EOR
18:36 chromatic davidfetter?
18:36 davidfetter ETOOLAZY
18:36 chromatic fperrad?
18:36 particle joined #parrotsketch
18:36 fperrad * some experiments with load_language : not conclusive
18:36 fperrad * work on Markdown : basics work
18:36 fperrad funny problems this morning with r37824 (PGE merge)
18:36 fperrad because everybody use same identifier name
18:36 fperrad - Markdown::Node has a attribute 'text' : OK
18:36 fperrad - grammar uses a token 'Str' : KO, conflict with method .Str (previously .text)
18:36 fperrad * Lua blocker : RT #59968 ~ TT #472 (segfault when catching an exception from C)
18:37 fperrad EOR
18:37 chromatic GeJ?
18:38 chromatic Infinoid?
18:38 Infinoid * Been trying to keep up with bacek++'s continuing socket improvement patches.
18:38 Infinoid * Fixed some socket-related stuff.  Made a few improvements to the httpd.pir example.
18:38 Infinoid * The sockets stuff is far too shiny, and it has distracted me from making any progress on website migration stuff.
18:38 Infinoid * Cleaned a few cages.
18:38 Infinoid q1q
18:38 Infinoid 1;
18:38 chromatic japhb?
18:39 chromatic masak?
18:39 masak - haven't been to a sketch since March 3rd.
18:39 masak - submitted 40 bugs since then.
18:39 masak - worked a lot on Druid, proto, Web.pm, November (in decresing order of 'a lot').
18:39 masak - doing most thinking and discussing on Web.pm, though.
18:39 masak - even got some Rakudo hacking done! \o/
18:39 masak - nothing outstanding in Rakudo that needs urgent fixing.
18:39 masak - preparing for NPW2009.
18:39 masak - from a user perspective, Rakudo, despite the record number of new/open tickets, has never been nicer to work with. jonathan++ pmichaud++.
18:39 masak - also, a Perl 6 community is definitely forming. makes me happy.
18:39 masak .eor
18:40 chromatic moritz?
18:40 moritz * observed some segfaults creeping back into Rakudo (don't know if they are parrot induced)
18:40 moritz * published two Perl 6 articles in a German computer magazine (iX)
18:40 moritz * trying to keep the test suite up-to-date, but the spec is moving too quick, and the implementations too slow.
18:40 moritz * no parrot work (except occasional POD fixes)
18:40 moritz * can agree with masak on the last two points
18:41 moritz </report>
18:41 chromatic particle?
18:41 particle just small parroty things here and there
18:41 particle dealing with irs
18:41 particle tested sockets code on windows bacek++ infinoid++
18:42 particle google summer of code applications rolling in
18:42 particle questions, too. been doing my best to answer or direct students in the right direction
18:42 particle application period ends this friday
18:42 particle .end
18:43 chromatic PerlJam?
18:44 chromatic pmichaud?
18:44 pmichaud * Rakudo now passing 8039 spectests (+717 since last #ps!)
18:44 pmichaud * Added better support for P5 regexes to PGE (and Rakudo)
18:44 pmichaud * Started other refactors related to changes in Synopsis 5 and other PGE improve
18:44 pmichaud ments
18:44 pmichaud * Expect to continue PGE work this week, start HLLCompiler refactors
18:44 pmichaud ** Plan to have these available (and new tutorials) in time for NPW
18:44 pmichaud * Jonathan and I are discussing ways to deal with (improve or circumvent) Parrot calling convention issues impacting Rakudo
18:44 pmichaud ** We will likely flesh this out in more detail both in IRC discussions and at NPW
18:44 pmichaud EOR
18:45 chromatic Tene?
18:45 cotto q1q
18:45 chromatic tewk?
18:46 chromatic Util?
18:46 Util Tuit deficit. No committable work done. Carried over from last week:
18:46 Util * Converting t/op/trans.t to pure PIR
18:46 Util * "Win32 - Porting Parrot to MinGW-TDM"
18:46 Util More tuits expected this week, though.
18:47 Util Showed off the #perl6 evalbot at the Atlanta.pm after-meeting dinner.
18:47 Util Helped on IRC with macports problem.
18:47 Util EOR
18:47 chromatic Did I miss anyone?
18:48 chromatic Okay.  Infinoid, you had one question.
18:48 Infinoid Vasily Chekalkin (bacek) has been involved in parrot for some time, and has submitted quite a few high quality patches.
18:48 Infinoid He seems motivated and has been responsive to the various concerns I've raised.
18:48 Infinoid What do we think about giving him a commit bit?
18:48 chromatic +1 here
18:49 fperrad +1
18:49 cotto +1
18:49 Coke +1
18:49 particle he's earned it.
18:49 barney ++
18:49 particle do we have a mentor?
18:49 masak +1
18:49 pmichaud who will ment..... right.
18:49 Coke infinoid, obviously, since he asked. =-)
18:50 particle i'm doubly happy to see a recent committer mentoring a new one.
18:50 pmichaud I'll just note that I think bacek needs close mentoring -- some of his patches in the past put functionality in the wrong place.
18:50 pmichaud that said, recent patches have been much improved.
18:50 particle pmichaud: that's more been the case with his rakudo patches than with parrot
18:50 particle and, yes.
18:50 Infinoid yeah, me +1 obviously
18:50 allison +1 with CLA and mentor
18:50 Infinoid (sorry about the delay)
18:51 particle have him get his cla off in the mail to the parrot postbox, and upon receipt we'll hand him his commit bit.
18:51 Infinoid if mentoring means reviewing patches like I've been doing and discussing issues, I can do that
18:51 pmichaud yes, with the exception that you have to review commits instead of patches :-)
18:51 Infinoid I'm a git user.  commit is relative :)
18:51 particle Infinoid: if he breaks parrot, we flog you :)
18:52 moritz we flog both ;-)
18:52 Infinoid Sounds good.  thanks, EOQ
18:52 allison Infinoid: also being available to answer his questions, training him in sane commit and branching practices, etc
18:52 * particle wonders if we should add a mentoring section to the committers guide
18:52 Infinoid That would help me
18:52 allison particle: +1
18:53 particle i'll see what i can do.
18:54 allison any more questions before roadmap review?
18:54 chromatic cotto, you had a question.
18:54 cotto Do we want to keep the PMC_DATA_IN_EXT macro in include/parrot/pobj.h?  Setting it to 1 currently breaks the build when miniparrot tries to compile config_lib.pasm, and it's very likely going to bitrot further as time progresses.
18:55 chromatic I don't see its utility anymore.
18:55 cotto What was its previous purpose?
18:55 cotto s/previous/original/
18:55 chromatic Keep PMC header size small if most PMCs don't need additional data outside of the UnionVal, I suspect.
18:57 cotto I'll file a ticket and/or get on it.
18:57 cotto eow
18:57 cotto s/w/q/
18:57 allison cotto: it used to be that the 'data' member could be either in the core struct or the ext struct
18:57 allison cotto: but now specified as always in the core struct
18:57 allison cotto: so, yes, can be removed
18:58 cotto sounds like a plan then
18:59 cotto that'll make some code a little nicer
18:59 cotto eoq
18:59 chromatic Any other questions?
19:00 allison this one kind of leads into the roadmap review...
19:00 chromatic Go ahead.
19:01 allison Based on our experience with estimations in the previous round, I've been looking over the Roadmap for 1.4, and think we need a few revisions in our battle plan.
19:01 allison Would folks prefer to talk about that here or on the mailing list?
19:01 pmichaud here.
19:01 pmichaud unless you have a long proposal already in mind.
19:02 allison nope, just topics for discussion at this point
19:02 allison The list:
19:02 particle yes, here then
19:03 allison - A big release is a huge drain on developer energy, and also requires packaging/bug fixing, etc work immediately after. So the month after a "supported" release shouldn't include any large development milestones.
19:04 pmichaud I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.  (more)
19:04 allison - 1.0 gained us a lot more visibility than I anticipated. Some things we marked as lower-priority until 2.0, have become a higher priority as a result.
19:05 pmichaud (shall I wait for the full list before commenting?)
19:05 allison (among these are GC and calling conventions)
19:05 allison pmichaud: (checking my list...)
19:05 allison that'll do it for general motivators
19:05 allison pmichaud: go ahead
19:05 particle we're free to modify our roadmap anytime, as long as it's discussed and agreed upon.
19:06 allison particle: yup, this is a "discussing and agreeing" session
19:06 pmichaud (big release):  my impression from the 1.0 release is that much of the packaging/bug fixing taking place is with respect to the 'make install' step
19:06 particle porting, too.
19:06 pmichaud in that sense, we really had expected that to occur before 1.0, but it didn't.
19:06 pmichaud so I don't know that the month-after-1.0 is representative in that respect
19:07 allison pmichaud: so the energy spent here may not repeat in other supported releases, good point
19:07 allison pmichaud: I'd still like to revise our 1.1 milestones
19:07 pmichaud I agree with revising milestones; I'm just not sure that the conclusion (month after release shouldn't included large milestones) follows from the premise.
19:07 allison pmichaud: the developer energy, though, I suspect will repeat on each supported release
19:08 pmichaud I guess it depends on how much energy it takes to do a supported release
19:08 pmichaud in my case, many features that I wanted to work on really needed to wait until after 1.0 to be done
19:08 pmichaud (because of deprecation issues)
19:08 Coke I suspect 1.4 will be easier than 1.0 in that regard.
19:09 pmichaud I agree.
19:09 allison pmichaud: the month before a supported release should always be focused on fixing and cleaning
19:09 Coke (the "amount of energy" regard.)
19:09 allison and, it was, in this case
19:09 pmichaud at any rate, I think we just put development milestones where the person making the changes feels it makes more sense.
19:10 allison pmichaud: ah, yes, I forgot to mention that part: the month after a "supported" release will be focused on removing deprecated items
19:10 allison (this month certainly has been so far)
19:10 pmichaud well, I'm expecting a fair amount of PGE/PCT development in April; but perhaps I'm just the oddball of the group there.
19:10 allison so, we should plan for it, since we've already planned our release schedule around it
19:11 chromatic I don't think you can predict so succinctly what volunteers will work on.
19:11 allison chromatic: but, we can set saner milestone goals based on the anticipation that our effort will be focused elsewhere
19:12 allison milestones aren't about "predicting" they're about deciding where to put our energy
19:12 allison so, we plan that the month after every supported release has a focus on removing deprecated items
19:12 chromatic Okay, but I still don't think you can predict what volunteers will work on.
19:12 pmichaud anyway, I don't know that this is that big an issue.  Looking to specifics, are there items currently slated for 1.1 that you think need to move?
19:13 particle security can move out
19:13 Coke pir profiling tools is not going to get done if there's no one championing it.
19:13 allison chromatic: I'm not trying to predict, I'm trying to decide where to spend my time
19:13 particle pcc should move up
19:13 pmichaud I suspect pir profiling tools isn't going to happen in 1.1
19:13 allison yes, that's one to move out
19:13 Coke allison: you're trying to decide where to spend everyone's time. =-)
19:13 pmichaud pge ltm and protoregex will have progress; protoregex is likely to happen, ltm is not likely.
19:13 allison I'd also like to reschedule the security implementation work
19:14 pmichaud (progress on ltm, yes, completion of ltm, no)
19:14 particle coke: *we're* trying to decide. it's not just allison
19:14 allison and from 1.2, reschedule the strings/nfg work
19:14 pmichaud allison: moving strings/nfg later?
19:14 particle yes
19:14 allison coke/particle: this is about everyone deciding what they can reasonably accomplish
19:14 allison pmichaud: yes, strings/nfg later
19:15 allison pmichaud: if you need optimizations earlier, we can do that
19:15 pmichaud I think I need features more than optimizations
19:15 particle the features you need aren't currently on the roadmap, iirc
19:15 pmichaud Rakudo fails a significant number of spectests that it would otherwise pass except for reasonable unicode coverage
19:15 Coke optimizations should wait until after the profiler, anyway.
19:16 particle ah, sorry, you mean strings features.
19:16 pmichaud yes, strings features.
19:16 allison pmichaud: can those be broken down into specific issues?
19:17 pmichaud yes.  (more)
19:17 allison pmichaud: because what we have on the roadmap now is "big scary refactor that may not actually help anyone"
19:17 pmichaud (1)  being able to determine if a codepoint is alphabetic/upper/lowercase
19:17 pmichaud (2)  being able to convert codepoint names into codepoints
19:17 pmichaud (recognizing that #2 might not be a part of Parrot, but if not, we need to know that so we can implement it in Rakudo.)
19:18 jonathan joined #parrotsketch
19:18 allison (2) seems like a reasonable feature, and should be possible with ICU
19:18 pmichaud (3)  being able to handle upcase/downcase on codepoints above 256
19:18 pmichaud (4) how to handle all of the above when ICU isn't present, or alternately, requiring ICU to be present.
19:18 allison (1) also should be possible with ICU (and wasn't part of the nfg refactor anyway)
19:19 allison How many platforms are we shooting with (4)?
19:19 allison Are the Big Three covered?
19:19 pmichaud I don't know if Windows is covered yet for ICU.
19:20 particle icu is available on windows
19:20 Coke icu4c-3_6-src.zip10.6 MBZIP file for Windows platforms
19:20 pmichaud particle: are we building parrot with icu on windows yet?
19:20 particle i build without it, but don't mind a requirement
19:20 allison easily installed?
19:20 particle we *can* build parrot with icu on windows
19:20 particle yes, easy install
19:20 fperrad I do with
19:20 particle unzip, add to path.
19:20 particle iirc
19:21 particle fperrad: does the win32 parrot distro include icu?
19:21 fperrad yes
19:21 allison Okay, add a ticket for "require ICU" as a possible
19:21 particle excellent. let's require it.
19:21 pmichaud I'm happy (happier) if we require ICU -- that reduces my need for string changes greatly.
19:22 moritz YaY
19:22 pmichaud and it gives a path for being able to fill in missing functionality since we can assume ICU is present.
19:23 allison so, the tasks that become a higher priority based on our unexpected visibility are GC, calling conventions, and language implementations
19:23 Coke aren't language implementations outside of the scope of parrot itself?
19:23 allison yes, but they factor into my time
19:23 pmichaud I'm expecting to develop a new 'mk_language_shell' script based on Rakudo's build environment and the upcoming changes to PCT
19:24 chromatic Why is GC such a high priority?
19:24 allison i.e. I plan on spending the majority of my time up to 1.4 on GC, calling conventions, and Pynie
19:24 allison chromatic: because of our speed issues
19:24 Coke "without a profiling, how do you know that's where the time is spent?" =-)
19:24 pmichaud Rakudo also increasingly runs into places where we'd like/need contexts to be PMC-reachable.
19:24 Coke *profiler.
19:25 allison Coke: you can't, but I can tell you for sure that our current GC is slow
19:25 allison the biggest problem is that we're killing PGE/NQP
19:25 chromatic How about you listen to the person who *profiled* Parrot?  The problem isn't the GC.
19:26 allison chromatic: okay, then what is it?
19:26 chromatic Exactly what I've been saying for the past several months.  Calling conventions.
19:26 allison (keeping in mind that calling conventions is already on my list)
19:26 allison okay, yes I know that
19:26 pmichaud I think chromatic's point is that GC should be a distant second to calling conventions.
19:26 allison but, changing the calling conventions is going to put more pressure on the GC
19:27 allison we'll at least need to add "active pools" for signature objects
19:27 allison not a full revamp, just an addition
19:27 chromatic There are two potential possible changes which can ameliorate some of the damage in the GC: scanning only specific pools (unlikely), and not always putting an entire new pool on a free list.
19:28 chromatic When parrot_pass_args is somewhere between 30 and 40% of the entire profile for benchmark applications, the problem isn't the GC.
19:28 allison aye, we've had these conversations
19:29 allison so, I'll revise: I plan on spending the majority of my time up to 1.4 on calling conventions and Pynie
19:29 pmichaud +1
19:29 allison and will see if I can convince chromatic to work on a few small changes to GC, once I put more pressure on it
19:30 pmichaud allison: I'm curious for the reason for the Pynie focus (not disputing it, just curious)
19:30 allison as one example language
19:30 pmichaud because it's .... right
19:30 pmichaud it's an example language that (1) needs attention, (2) is a very good candidate for PCT/Parrot, (3) has visibility, (4) isn't Rakudo.
19:30 allison we need a complete implentation out there
19:31 allison and, Python has been very welcoming, far more than I anticipated
19:31 pmichaud okay.  Obviously my focus continues to be Rakudo but if I can help out with Pynie then let me know.
19:31 Coke s/rakudo/partcl/ but ditto.
19:31 allison pmichaud: yes, your focus needs to be Rakudo (and any help on the side welcome)
19:31 pmichaud and my biggest help to Pynie will undoubtedly be improving PGE speed.
19:32 pmichaud question:  is there a published Python 3.0 grammar somewhere?
19:32 allison pmichaud: yes, PGE speed will be a huge benefit
19:32 allison pmichaud: in the tarball (and py3k repo)
19:32 pmichaud okay.  Is it just a yacc grammar, or is it a document like the "Python Language Reference" guide was for 2.x ?
19:32 allison pmichaud: it's actually a pretty small diff from 2.x
19:32 pmichaud okay, that's good.
19:33 allison EBNF grammar
19:33 pmichaud perfect.
19:33 allison almost translates directly to PGE
19:33 pmichaud and you can reuse much of the existing grammar.pg then.
19:33 allison pmichaud: yup, and actions
19:34 allison and tests
19:34 jonathan (pynie) I'm happy to answer any questions on stuff too - especially in areas relating to those I've covered in Rakudo.
19:34 pmichaud I need to pick up kids from school -- I'll read logs later.
19:35 kj joined #parrotsketch
19:35 allison jonathan: I've actually started writing a few messages to the Rakudo developers asking how to do X or Y, but always figure it out before I send the message
19:35 pmichaud I'm fine with restructuring milestones; those with my name on them largely remain the same I think.
19:35 allison okay
19:35 allison I'm mainly changing the ones with my name on them
19:35 pmichaud one thing that would be helpful is for us to designate a way to indicate milestones that are critical to a language as opposed to parrot
19:35 allison (or with no name on them)
19:36 jonathan I fully agree that the calling enhancements are where we need focus.
19:36 jonathan (sorry, backlogging...)
19:36 allison pmichaud: how about "critical (rakudo)"
19:36 pmichaud that's fine with me.  Either a tag, text, or whatever in a trac ticket would work for me.
19:36 pmichaud just let me know what it is :-)
19:36 pmichaud gotta split -- back later.
19:38 allison so, back to the roadmap, the things I'd like to reschedule:
19:38 allison - pdd18-security
19:38 allison - security sandbox
19:38 allison - pir profiling tools
19:38 allison - strings + nfg
19:39 allison - fix dynpmc vtables
19:39 allison - concurrency/threading (not that no work will happen, just that it's not a milestone priority)
19:40 allison Any problems?
19:40 particle i'd like to see strings, security, and dynpmc in before 1.4, so they're more widely used before 2.0 (in that order)
19:40 allison particle: okay, I'll schedule them in the 1.5-1.9 range
19:41 jonathan Can somebody give me a reference for the dynpmc vtables issue? I wasn't aware of that issue...
19:41 allison oh, 1.6-1.9 (keeping in mind the "deprecation work" for 1.5
19:41 allison jonathan: no clue
19:41 allison jonathan: I may delete it rather than moving it
19:41 chromatic It's important actually.
19:42 jonathan allison: OK. We've been using dynpmcs and dynops successfully in Rakudo, so I was curious exactly what it is.
19:42 chromatic It's making dynpmcs initialize their vtables without directly poking vtable function pointers from libparrot into their own vtables.
19:42 allison (That's what someone usually says when I try to delete a roadmap item)
19:42 chromatic That means we can remove PARROT_EXPORT from all vtable functions.
19:42 jonathan chromatic: Is this related to being able...ah, right.
19:42 chromatic (and remove several thousand externally visible symbols from libparrot)
19:42 allison chromatic: could you write that up as an RFC ticket?
19:43 chromatic (and speed up linking and startup relocations)
19:43 allison then we can attach it to the roadmap
19:43 chromatic I think there is a ticket for it, but I don't know where it is.
19:43 particle write another, and they can be merged later
19:43 jonathan chromatic: Agree reducing starup relocations would help for usre.
19:43 chromatic It was just a mailing list post.  I'll c&p into a ticket.
19:43 jonathan *startup, sure
19:44 jonathan Given it might even give a startup time win that becomes noticable in make spectest for Rakudo, I may find some tuits to make that happen.
19:44 chromatic I have about half of it done so far.
19:45 chromatic It should be a few days of work; no biggie.
19:45 chromatic Right now I'm (still) knee deep in the JIT, so no promises for the next couple of days.
19:46 jonathan chromatic: OK, great. :-)
19:47 allison That wraps up my roadmap discussion
19:48 allison pmichaud said to keep his 1.1 milestone item
19:48 allison namespaces is in review
19:48 allison parrot on cygwin is landed
19:48 allison and that's the 1.1 milestone list
19:49 allison Any more roadmap review items before we close?
19:50 particle remove the pipp developers release, barney has no plans on it atm
19:50 particle that's it from me
19:50 Coke allison: removing the profiler for 1.1 also?
19:51 allison Coke: moving it out, yes
19:51 barney I'm busy in the next two months, hope to make some progress in summer
19:51 allison Coke: preferences on moving it to before or after 1.4 or 2.0? (I think before 2.0)
19:52 * kj waves, without a report :-(
19:53 jonathan Agree, before 2.0 would be good.
19:53 Coke allison: I want it asap. I can't do it. so... doesn't matter. =-)
19:53 jonathan Sufficienlty early, it'll help language implementers improve their language implementations pre-2.0 too.
19:53 Coke if you make parrot faster, it's less useful.
19:54 allison Coke: I want it now
19:54 particle jonathan: right. to be "production-ready" we need these features, and stable languages
19:54 allison right now
19:54 tewk Profiling support == timing subs and exporting as callgrind format?
19:54 Coke so put it before 1.4, and we'll hope someone gets tuits. <shrug>
19:54 allison Coke: sensible
19:54 particle tewk: pir-level constructs, yes
19:55 particle constructs/operations
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19:58 allison sounds like we're wrapped. Thanks everyone!
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