Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-04-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

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18:31 Coke Hello.
18:31 allison hi
18:32 fperrad hello
18:32 barney Hallo
18:32 NotFound hola
18:32 cotto hi
18:32 Util hi
18:32 Coke The three sharp taps of the gavel.... wrong meeting.
18:32 Coke why don't we start with fperrad?
18:32 masak hi
18:33 Tene hi
18:33 moritz joined #parrotsketch
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18:33 Coke francois?
18:33 fperrad * start a XML parser (SAX like) with PGE/NQP
18:33 fperrad PGE grammar allows to be very close to XML spec
18:34 fperrad * practise the release manager guide
18:34 Infinoid joined #parrotsketch
18:34 fperrad * I start release just after #ps
18:34 fperrad EOR
18:34 darbelo_ joined #parrotsketch
18:34 Coke Thanks for doing the release this month.
18:34 Coke allison?
18:34 allison - Checked in the new book structure and edits to several chapters.
18:34 allison - Split out package specification files for Fedora, SuSE, and Mandriva (working with Tim Nelson, aka wayland).
18:35 allison - Continued working on the calling conventions, checked in the PCCMETHOD changes. Working my way through the old C calls to Parrot_runops_* and Parrot_run_meth_*
18:35 allison - Speaking about Parrot at a Linux user group in San Francisco tonight.
18:35 allison EOR
18:35 Coke Thanks. barney?
18:35 barney Pipp is working with SVN HEAD again
18:36 barney cotto++ for fixing PhpResource
18:36 barney Attended PHP TestFest in Munich
18:36 kj joined #parrotsketch
18:36 barney Played with Issues on Github, looks nice
18:36 barney .eor
18:37 Coke Thanks.
18:37 Coke chromatic?
18:37 chromatic Failed to merge in my header refactorings before the release; working on them now.  Will merge in small steps after the release.
18:37 chromatic EOR
18:38 Coke danke.
18:38 Coke cotto?
18:38 cotto Parrot:
18:38 cotto * removed deprecated Ref and SharedRef PMCs (last week)
18:38 cotto * finished removing UnionVal from PMCs (with Whiteknight++, also last week)
18:38 cotto * closed a bunch of random RT tickets
18:38 cotto GSoC:
18:38 cotto * I'll be mentoring darbelo, who wants to write decnumber-based BigInt, BigNum and BigRat PMCs
18:38 cotto * sent off an introductory letter about how to get plugged into Parrot
18:38 cotto .end
18:38 cotto Also, Whiteknight will be co-mentoring
18:38 Coke danke.
18:38 Coke My report:
18:38 Coke 14:33 -!- chromatic [~chromatic@069-064-234-010.pdx.net] has joined #parrotsketch
18:38 Coke ... that's not my reprot.
18:38 Coke - stationkeeping (tickets, code review, etc.)
18:38 Coke - partcl still dead; never did have time to work on it before the 1.1
18:38 Coke release. Am hoping that if rakudo works against an installed parrot,
18:38 Coke I can too.
18:39 Coke .EOR
18:39 Coke Notfound?
18:40 NotFound * Closed some old tickets
18:40 NotFound * A minimal work on ecmascript
18:40 NotFound EOR
18:40 Coke gracias.
18:40 Coke Util?
18:41 Util Last week: Tuit deficit; only worked on testing Parrot 1.1.
18:41 Util This week: More work on the book's PASM reference.
18:41 Util q1q
18:41 Util EOR
18:41 Coke particle?
18:42 Coke tene?
18:42 Tene * More Web.pm work
18:42 Tene * Have a pastebin running on rakudo
18:42 Tene * Got HLL line numbers into uncaught exception messages, but it failed a bunch of tests that relied on the exact message
18:42 Tene * Played with custom sub traits in rakudo... interesting possibilities there
18:42 Tene * Plan to work on HLL compat in the next week
18:42 Tene .KTHXBAI
18:43 Coke tewk_?
18:43 Coke (thanks to everyone, btw, even if I don't say it every time. =-)
18:44 Coke Whiteknight?
18:44 Whiteknight * Helped cotto++ finish removing UnionVal from PMCs
18:44 Whiteknight * Dealing with some JIT-related fallout from that
18:44 Whiteknight * Looking at some of the inheritance-related issues, hopefully get a few fixed post-1.1
18:44 Whiteknight * Some misc writing/rewriting in /docs/book/*
18:44 Whiteknight * Queue 1 Question
18:44 Whiteknight EOR
18:44 Coke PerlJam?
18:44 cotto q1q
18:45 Coke rdice? =-)
18:46 rdice Thanks for asking.
18:46 rdice No report right now.
18:47 Coke let's see... I don't have an actual list of committers in front of me; anyone have a report that I didn't call on?
18:47 * masak
18:47 Coke shoot.
18:47 masak * Participated in NPW, and the hackathon after that.
18:47 masak * It was a very enjoyable/productive workshop-and-hackathon.
18:47 masak * Submitted 18 rakudobugs since last Tuesday.
18:47 masak * Patched Rakudo, adding server-side socket support (mberends++, Tene++, cosimo++)
18:47 masak * Patched Rakudo, enabling double-coloned type names to appear in the setting
18:47 masak * Various other small janitor patches to Rakudo
18:47 masak * Started, during NPW, to discuss ideas for a module database in Rakudo
18:47 masak * Most pressing, I think, is the lack of a standard location for Perl 6 modules
18:47 masak * My queue of things-to-do is maxed out, but in a good way
18:47 masak .eor
18:47 masak q1q
18:47 * moritz also has two lines to report
18:47 Coke shoot.
18:47 moritz * ususal Rakudo patching
18:47 moritz * motivated people to do GSoC stuff
18:47 moritz EOR
18:47 * Infinoid
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18:48 Coke Alright. we have four questions queued; Before that, anyone else with a report?
18:48 * Infinoid <--
18:48 Coke shoot.
18:48 Infinoid * Some patch monstering and ticket management stuff.  Some cage cleaning, other minor random fixes.
18:48 Infinoid * I've got some stuff for mingw and netbsd ready to go in just after the release.
18:48 Infinoid * I'll be updating dalek again soon; if you have a language you want it to track, please make sure it's listed on the Languages page on the wiki.
18:48 Infinoid 1;
18:49 Coke kj was here but is gone; pmichaud isn't here..
18:50 Coke so, let's hit the questions...
18:50 Coke Q1: Util?
18:50 Util When the user stack (poptop, etc) was removed from Parrot's design, did the design leaders intend anything in particular to replace its function, (like a plain Array object, perhaps)?
18:50 Util Also, is this intent documented anywhere?
18:50 * Util wishes for a DEPRECATED_REASONS file when spelunking old PASM/PIR code.
18:50 Coke Util: post 1.0, there' a Deprecated page on the wiki.
18:50 allison Util: there's a local stack stored in each context
18:51 Coke The thought pre-1.0 was, for a while, if it's gone it's GONE, better to document what is.
18:51 allison (and, actually, the user stack is still there, it's just not rolled back with continuations anymore)
18:51 Util That all helps; I will dig deeper. EOQ.
18:51 Coke Q2: Whiteknight?
18:52 Whiteknight I propose we rip out the current JIT system. Make a clean start for the LLVM work
18:52 Whiteknight comments/opinions?
18:52 cotto That's my question too.
18:52 Infinoid I bet that would close a lot of tickets.
18:52 Coke Can't do that officially until 1.4, no?
18:52 * Whiteknight is in ur mind, stealin ur questions
18:52 Coke er, until just after.
18:52 Whiteknight right, we we can start the train now
18:53 Coke but in principal... anything that gets me a JIT on my platform sooner++. =-)
18:53 allison let's see if the new LLVM JIT works before we start ripping out old stuf
18:53 moritz wouldn't it be better to wait with the rip-out until we *know* that the new approach works?
18:53 chromatic Ripping it out would hurt the JIT-built NCI signatures too.
18:53 Whiteknight not having a half-built JIT system will help motivate us to create a proper one later
18:53 cotto agree
18:53 Whiteknight because a lot of our target platforms don't have a working JIT now anyway
18:53 moritz also, does llvm satisfy our demands of portability?
18:53 cotto *agreed
18:53 allison the summer of code project will be done in a branch, and he can take any approach he needs, including entirely replacing it
18:53 Coke I think that doing it in a branch ... right.
18:54 NotFound Will be nice to be a nci call mechanism that does not depend on jit
18:54 Util parallel development, until new is proper superset of old.
18:54 allison but, jumping it to declare the existing JIT dead before we even know if we have a replacement is premature
18:54 Whiteknight I'm thinking more about motivations. We don't have a portable JIT system now, and the sooner we rip it out the sooner we can get started on making one
18:54 allison I appreciate your eagerness
18:55 chromatic I'd rather have something finished and usable before we remove something partially working but used.
18:55 Whiteknight people are less motivated to make a real JIT system when we have a phoney one already that sort of works when some people are looking
18:55 NotFound In theory it must not be so difficult to push the arguments on the stack with a little inline assembler.
18:55 allison it's not really *that* much difference to motivation
18:55 Infinoid The current jit has been intimidating enough to prevent me from seriously looking at adding platforms to it
18:55 Util People are motivated by shiny things. Build your shiny thing next to the old one; it will look even better.
18:55 Coke I tend to doubt that "working in trunk" is motivation for most people.
18:55 Infinoid I am interested in jitted arm
18:56 Infinoid and x86-64
18:56 allison Infinoid: sure, that's a limitation in the current implementation
18:56 allison so, it certainly needs changes
18:56 allison and replacing it is one possibility
18:56 Util It does not even have to be in a branch. Make a JIT2 runcore.
18:56 Whiteknight I'm interested in x86-64 too, and I'm not going to take the herculean task of adding it to our curent JIT system. Too little return on investment
18:56 allison it's just too early to make the call
18:57 Whiteknight that's fair, I just wanted to sow the seeds of discontent. EOQ
18:57 Util (in trunk)
18:57 Coke ok. that's Q2 and Q3.
18:57 Coke Q4: masak?
18:57 masak capturing output from a process: I wrote an email about it on parrot-dev the other day. it would be good for both Perl 6 and Parrot. is it on someone's roadmap and, if not, where do I start my own investigation?
18:57 Whiteknight masak, could we copy the backticks mechanism from Perl5?
18:57 Coke masak's post is http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/parrot-dev/2009-April/002067.html for those playing at home.
18:58 masak Whiteknight: in what sense? is there such a mechanism for Perl5-on-Parrot already?
18:58 masak I'm all for copying the semantics from Perl 5, that's what I'm after.
18:59 allison we can't copy from Perl 5 because our I/O system is entirely different
18:59 allison all it needs is a full implementation of pipes in the I/O system
18:59 allison there's a partial one there now
18:59 masak ok, so that's the block.
18:59 allison needs a little work (on multiple platforms)
19:00 masak fine. just noting that it'll be good to have eventually.
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19:00 Whiteknight let's get a list together soonish about all the platforms that still need work on that front
19:00 masak eoq
19:00 allison I can point anyone who's interested at the routines
19:00 Whiteknight <-- interested
19:00 allison Whiteknight: it's linux and windows
19:00 allison (Mac just uses the same as linux)
19:01 allison (but still needs separate testing)
19:01 pmichaud hello everyone
19:01 NotFound It needs some more that that. For example in windows is hard to make std redirections and creating a process avoiding the creation of a console window in all OS variants.
19:01 Coke and that's a wrap..... oh, hai. =-)
19:01 Coke why don't we let pmichaud report first. =-)
19:01 allison NotFound: yes, that's windows
19:01 pmichaud ehhh, I wasn't planning to be here anyway.  My flight is delayed in Newark.
19:02 pmichaud I'm writing a report on our NPW results for use.perl and rakudo.org; I'll let that be my #ps report.
19:02 pmichaud (probably post tomorrow morning)
19:02 Coke that works.
19:02 pmichaud eta to release?
19:02 Coke fperrad: anything you need done for the release?
19:02 fperrad no
19:03 fperrad all seems ok
19:03 Coke pmichaud: "just after #ps" was the last we heard.
19:03 Coke so, shall we let fperrad get to work?
19:04 pmichaud okay.  I have a patch I did on the plane that would be nice to get into the release (for rakudo)... but I think I'll err on the side of safety this month.
19:04 Coke danke.
19:04 pmichaud don't want to hold up the release.  :-)
19:04 Coke our motto should be "there's always next month."
19:04 pmichaud well, it means that Rakudo will only be good against the current parrot release for a few hours :-(
19:04 Coke heh
19:05 barney next month never dies
19:05 Coke alrightee. That's a wrap.
19:05 Coke see everyone after 1.1.0
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