Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-06-16

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18:30 masak \o/
18:30 japhb o/
18:30 pmichaud \o_
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18:30 pmichaud (my right shoulder is a little sore)
18:31 pmichaud er, left.
18:31 Whiteknight hello
18:31 * japhb wonders what we're spelling in flag letters
18:31 Util hello
18:31 barney hi
18:31 pmichaud "time for #parrotsketch"
18:31 allison hi
18:31 grantbow hello
18:31 fperrad hello
18:33 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
18:33 chromatic allison?
18:33 allison - Finished editing the book. Will check it into Parrot trunk today.
18:34 allison - Have to miss YAPC::NA this year (I have a concussion, doctor won't let me travel).
18:34 allison - On the plus side, that should give me some extra time to work on building languages from an installed Parrot.
18:34 allison EOR
18:34 grantbow allison: what happened?
18:34 chromatic barney?
18:35 barney Pipp: fixed setting of default values for class attributes
18:35 barney .eor
18:35 allison grantbow: I walked into a large glass door at a hotel (jetlag, sun shining in my eyes, etc)
18:36 masak :/
18:36 chromatic I fixed some bugs and plugged some memory leaks.
18:36 grantbow allison: ouch, I hope you feel better soon.
18:36 chromatic I helped edit the PIR book.
18:36 chromatic I'll give allison's talk at OS Bridge on Thursday.
18:36 chromatic fperrad?
18:36 fperrad * French Perl Workshop : give a talk about "Markdown on Parrot"
18:36 fperrad available on http://fperrad.googlepages​.com/MarkdownOnParrot.pdf
18:36 fperrad * see a great talk about visualization of Perl ecosystem
18:36 fperrad maps available on cpan-explorer.org
18:36 fperrad EOR
18:37 chromatic japhb?
18:37 japhb * Helped Tene with PIR libs exporting to HLLs
18:37 japhb * Updated OpenGL to support PIR->HLL export
18:37 japhb * Cleaned up OpenGL examples, especially Perl 6 variants in light of above
18:37 japhb * Worked around Gentoo Mesa shipping Windows GL headers
18:37 chromatic jhorwitz?
18:37 * jhorwitz realizes #ps started without him
18:37 jhorwitz ahem...
18:38 jhorwitz fixed mod_parrot & mod_perl6 to work with the recent HLL namespace changes
18:38 jhorwitz have not had any time to work on PDD10 (embedding API) for 1.3 release.  q1q regarding that
18:39 jhorwitz EOR
18:39 chromatic masak?
18:39 masak submitted 12 rakudobug since last week. worked a bit on my usual projects, mostly Web.pm. >>EOR<<
18:39 chromatic moritz?
18:39 chromatic NotFound?
18:40 chromatic particle?
18:40 particle prepping for yapc::na keynote and pvmw
18:41 particle ...not enough time...
18:41 particle .end
18:41 chromatic pmichaud?
18:41 Coke joined #parrotsketch
18:41 pmichaud General:
18:41 pmichaud * Rakudo now passing 11,535 spectests (+60 since last week)
18:41 pmichaud * I now have a grant for 1 Rakudo day per week from Vienna.pm
18:41 pmichaud * Took an unplanned trip for the weekend, so little done then
18:41 pmichaud * Proposed detailed schedule for pvmw in Pittsburg, comments welcomed
18:41 pmichaud * Worked substantially on building Rakudo from installed Parrot
18:41 pmichaud ** Still quite a bit more to do there, need testers
18:41 pmichaud ** Not likely to be working in time for Parrot 1.3 / Rakudo #18 releases
18:41 pmichaud * Fixed unicode and iso-8859-1 string concatenation problems
18:41 pmichaud * Did some troubleshooting of GC issues causing memory leaks in Rakudo
18:41 pmichaud * Did troubleshooting of readline_interactive
18:41 pmichaud Other Rakudo stuff:
18:42 pmichaud * Fixed () to return Nil
18:42 pmichaud * Added various unicode ranges to Str increment/decrement
18:42 pmichaud * Rakudo day: Working on refactoring readonly checks to be read-write checks
18:42 pmichaud q1q
18:42 pmichaud eor
18:42 chromatic Tene?
18:42 chromatic Util?
18:43 Util * Fixed TT#688 (pbc_to_exe too slow) for the remaining compiler (MSVC).
18:43 Util Unless someone reports a slow Rakudo perl.exe build platform, I will close the ticket.
18:43 Util * Poked at TT#691 (pbc_to_exe fails when installed).
18:43 Util Finding multiple points of failure; total issue complexity is unclear.
18:43 Util # I am out of tuits from now until the Parrot VMW; prepping for YAPC talk.
18:43 Util * Stalled:
18:43 Util *   perl6-examples - Shootout benchmarks, and the un-ticketed bugs from them.
18:43 Util .eor
18:44 pmichaud queue another q
18:44 chromatic Whiteknight?
18:44 Whiteknight * Fixing bugs and closing tickets
18:44 Whiteknight * Lots of testing for the release. can fulltest now in about 7min, so much less painful (was > 1hr last month)
18:44 Whiteknight * Practicing the release procedure.
18:44 Whiteknight * Will start the release right after #ps, unless there are last minute blockers.
18:44 Whiteknight * Good job this month everybody!
18:44 chromatic Did I miss anyone?
18:44 Coke ~~, I'm late.
18:44 chromatic Coke?
18:44 Coke Parrot - minor cleanups for release.
18:44 Coke Partcl -  - now passing 2,972 spec tests.
18:44 Coke - started to think about eliminating custom call chain and using parrot's. Need documentation. Would be a big win for interoperability and avoiding lots of handrolled code.
18:45 Coke - fix [exit] in partcl's REPL so it actually does that.
18:45 Coke - eliminate helper .sub 'toList' and instead put a method on various pmcs/classes - avoids a lot of explicit "look up this code" and MULTIS.
18:45 Coke - eliminate some unnecessary code (overrides from years ago that are no longer needed)
18:45 Coke - remove TclObject; it was only used to avoid a very small amount of otherwise duplicated code, and the multiple PMC inheritence headache wasn't worth it.
18:45 Coke - Handle "\udead" processing, which isn't valid unicode, but is valid Tcl. (Not handling it correctly from Tcl's standpoint yet, but can now parse a spec test file we couldn't before.)
18:45 Coke - created a branch to switch TclList from a PMC to a class. 'make test' works, but 'make spectest' has many regressions. Goal is to avoid crossing the PBC/C boundary quite as often, nice side effect of having the code more readable in PIR.
18:45 Coke .
18:45 chromatic Anyone else?
18:45 chromatic Alright, let's talk questions.  jhorwitz?
18:46 jhorwitz embedding API was supposed to be completed for the 1.3 milestone today.  it was my task and i've had zero tuits to work on it.  should we just bump the milestone?
18:47 Coke Yes.
18:47 Coke Do you think you'll get to it for 1.4?
18:47 jhorwitz yes -- this month is much better for me
18:47 Coke (if so, bump there; otherwise just remove it)
18:47 jhorwitz it needs to get done
18:47 chromatic It can be parsimonious; it doesn't have to be complete.
18:48 chromatic It's easier to add features than to remove them.
18:48 allison yes, go ahead and bump the milestone on the ticket
18:48 jhorwitz very well.  next!
18:48 chromatic pmichaud?
18:48 Coke q1q
18:49 pmichaud Util: how comfortable are you with the TT#688 change that was just made?
18:49 pmichaud i.e., has it been fairly well tested on various platforms?
18:50 Util Quite comfortable. Win32/MSVC is very tested, including Rakudo spectest. GCC codepath is solid. The only possible problem is if I erred in DRY refactoring across the default codepath.
18:50 pmichaud okay.
18:50 pmichaud just flagging the usual warnings about significant changes immediately before a release :-)
18:50 pmichaud (because if the release goes out and Rakudo can't build/run against it, we're hosed :-)
18:51 Coke I didn't care since pbc_to_exe is still broken over in tcl land.
18:51 pmichaud next question
18:51 pmichaud I'm starting to see a lot more -G related failures again in Rakudo;
18:51 pmichaud likely due to the various memory leak cleanups in Parrot.  Any suggestions?
18:51 pmichaud (Review: A "-G failure" indicates a program that fails when run
18:51 pmichaud normally but passes when the -G flag is present.)
18:51 chromatic No suggestions here without seeing backtraces or test cases or both.
18:52 Coke If it really is something not getting GC'd, chromatic had some nice articles on how to debug those.
18:52 pmichaud the problem is usually something being gc'd early
18:52 NotFound Sorry, been busy. Nothing to report.
18:52 pmichaud or, that the behavior of the program completely changes when run with -G
18:52 Coke er, "properly" is missing from my last send.
18:53 pmichaud in the latest incarnation, I'm starting to add a few more property flags to some PMCs
18:53 pmichaud doing so is causing method calls to jump to the wrong method entirely
18:53 chromatic Through PMC_metadata?
18:53 pmichaud through the "setprop" opcode, whatever it does.
18:53 pmichaud but if I run with "parrot -G", it runs correctly.
18:54 chromatic That uses PMC_metadata.  That could mean we're not great about managing pmc_ext.
18:54 chromatic Though Rakudo's subclass_or_rebless (or whatever it is) opcode still bothers me.
18:54 pmichaud agreed, that's why I'm not immediately ascribing the problem to Parrot :-)
18:55 pmichaud we're also noticing "double free" errors on exit again.
18:55 Whiteknight those are the worst
18:56 chromatic pmichaud, do you have time/knowledge to write a short description of your context refcount refactoring?  Specifically I'd like to know when, where, and why you incremented and decremented contexts.
18:56 chromatic Unless it's "Wherever seemed right..." in which case you know as much as I do.
18:56 pmichaud I can describe it here
18:56 pmichaud basically "Wherever seemed right..." is a pretty good summation (more)
18:56 chromatic It might be easier in mail to the list, where archival is better.
18:57 pmichaud in truth, I didn't truly refactor refcounts
18:57 pmichaud what I did do was add some additional instrumentation to make it easier to find out when things were blowing up
18:57 pmichaud but afaict, there's not really any overarching logic to when refcounts are increased or decreased, and there are some places that explicitly zero out the refcounts for no obvious reason.
18:58 chromatic Maybe we should branch after the release and try to track this down.
18:58 pmichaud That was when I started to work on moving contexts into PMCs, but that was also proving to be far more of a pain than I had time to deal with (given that I had already spent 50+ hours on the lexicals problem in the first place)
18:58 pmichaud so ultimately it came down to "when it works, stop."
18:59 pmichaud where "works" means "lexicals exhibit the right behavior and we don't have any segfaults"
18:59 pmichaud "works" explicitly did not include "and we aren't leaking contexts"
18:59 Whiteknight (don't have any segfaults)++
18:59 chromatic Let's put that on the list for debugging in the near future then.
18:59 chromatic Is anyone blocking on anything besides time, energy, and magical flying candy-flavored unicorns?
18:59 Coke Yes.
18:59 pmichaud I'll be glad to help as much as I can there, but I got seriously burned by it before.
19:00 clinton left #parrotsketch
19:00 chromatic Anyone besides Coke blocking?
19:01 pmichaud (done with my questions/comments)
19:02 chromatic Coke, what are you blocking on?
19:02 pmichaud (Coke had a question come in late)
19:02 Coke my blockers are: http://code.google.com/p/partcl/wiki/ParrotIssues (as usual), but as I mentioned yesterday in #parrot and just now in report, docs on how to use parrot's call chain. (return continuation chain?).
19:03 Coke I suspect "rakudo's source" is probably the best sample code, but was hoping for something a little more entry level. =-)
19:03 pmichaud Coke: I'll be glad to discuss in #parrot after #ps
19:03 allison how to use it beyond calls and returns?
19:03 Coke pmichaud: perfect, thank you.
19:03 Coke allison: (for things like uplevel, upvar, and throwing exceptions up N levels.)
19:03 pmichaud allison: just a reminder that I did ask about having a way to force return from a caller
19:04 allison pmichaud: aye
19:04 allison Coke: more advanced manipulations, yes. pmichaud can give you the current set of workarounds
19:05 allison Coke: I can say we need to provide a better interface there
19:05 pmichaud well, there aren't many workarounds yet -- I'm hoping for some underlying Parrot improvements.
19:05 pmichaud Yes, exactly what allison++ said.
19:05 Coke at this point, I'd be happy to get the stuff I already have working working the right way before adding in all the crazy stuff.
19:05 allison the details on how you all need to use them will help in defining the future interface
19:06 chromatic Let's do roadmap review.
19:06 pmichaud allison: Coke and I can discuss our mutual needs and then I'll get a report to you next week?
19:06 NotFound I have a quick question
19:06 allison pmichaud: sounds great
19:07 chromatic Go ahead, NotFound.
19:07 NotFound Can we add a isnull string opcode after the release, or needs a RFC?
19:08 allison adding after the release is fine
19:08 NotFound Ok
19:08 pmichaud adding before release would be okay, too, since it's a new feature and not a deprecation.
19:08 allison (it's deprecations that we have long cycles on, additions are safe)
19:08 pmichaud but better to wait the few hours at this point :-)
19:09 NotFound pmichaud: yes, but is late and I lacked the time to do some tests
19:09 allison yeah, better to wait, just in case of a test failure on a more obscure platform
19:09 allison and yes, definitely needs tests
19:09 NotFound Anyway, the first usage I have in mind will need a deprecation..
19:10 allison okay. the deprecation will have to wait until after 1.4
19:10 allison but make sure you get the notice in before 1.4
19:11 allison on to roadmap review...
19:11 allison https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/14
19:11 NotFound allison: is about readline_interactive, but probably a discussion too long for today, better next week.
19:12 allison NotFound: we could discuss on #parrot right after the meeting
19:12 NotFound allison: ok
19:12 allison TT #754 is marked as roadmap, but not marked with a milestone or discussed in #parrotsketch
19:13 allison should it be marked as roadmap?
19:13 allison and if so, which milestone?
19:13 Whiteknight no
19:13 japhb allison: My error, I think.  I think no one was around when I created that ticket, so I guessed.
19:14 allison okay, will change to TODO
19:14 japhb ... it is done, but I didn't know whether to close it before release.
19:14 allison closing it is fine if it's done
19:15 allison no need to wait until after the release
19:15 allison (but you probably should include a mention of it in the deprecation notice, just for documentation)
19:15 japhb OK, I was confused about the proper way to deal with a TT that only exists to support DEPRECATED.pod
19:15 japhb It is correctly linked in D.pod
19:16 allison usually the associated ticket gives the details of what needs to be done in the deprecation
19:16 allison this one happens to be a ticket saying to deprecate the feature
19:16 allison so, agreed the ticket itself is complete
19:16 japhb allison: remember, this ticket was the one that led to 'experimental' status.
19:17 * japhb resolves the ticket
19:17 allison no need to leave it hanging around as an open task
19:17 japhb nodnod
19:17 allison on to 1.3 roadmap tickets: the HLL export tickets seem to be still on track
19:17 Coke chromatic: you should review the text japhb & I wrote in DEPRECATED.pod.
19:17 pmichaud HLL export is continuing to progress, we have some things in for 1.3 but not finalized
19:18 pmichaud japhb++ and Tene++ for their efforts.
19:18 allison yes indeed japhb++ and Tene++
19:18 pmichaud While I wouldn't necessarily call it "landed", we do have something in place where we can show good progress
19:18 allison should some of those tickets be bumped to 1.4?
19:18 allison That's...
19:18 allison #566    export conventions (cross hll)
19:19 allison #567    pdd31-hll interop
19:19 allison #568    hll interop
19:19 pmichaud yes, we can bump to 1.4
19:19 allison all three?
19:19 japhb #566 seems to point to a wiki page that is empty
19:19 Whiteknight do all of thsoe need to be separate tickets?
19:19 pmichaud it's fine for them to be separate
19:19 pmichaud I like them separate
19:19 Whiteknight ok
19:19 pmichaud anyway, bump to 1.4, list me as owner
19:20 allison okay, will do
19:20 allison #588    pdd10-extending/embedding/nci, define parrot api
19:20 allison already discussed in questions
19:20 allison will bump to 1.4
19:20 allison end of roadmap review
19:20 japhb ... actually, all three of the HLL interop tickets point to a blank wiki page.  Something got moved?
19:21 NotFound I think the problem is that nobody wrote that page.
19:21 allison that was the old roadmap page
19:22 allison the tickets were extracted from that page, then deleted the page
19:22 allison (it was getting silly maintaining the ticket list in a wiki page when a report does just as well)
19:22 particle progress++
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19:22 japhb Ah.  And the only descriptions we have are the titles?  They're a little ... minimalist.
19:22 allison the page didn't have any more details on the task, just what's currently the title of the ticket
19:22 japhb gotcha
19:23 allison the roadmap tickets were all created from the Parrot Dev Summit, quick task descriptions on cards for the wall organization exercise
19:24 chromatic Anything else, or shall we call it a week?
19:24 Whiteknight I'm cutting the release nowish,
19:24 Whiteknight unless there are any issues outstanding
19:25 particle checked the latest smokes?
19:25 Whiteknight earlier
19:26 particle cut it now!
19:26 * Whiteknight goes on his merry little way
19:26 allison thanks, Whiteknight!
19:26 Coke cut cut.
19:27 * particle wonders if rakudo passes more spectests that parrot does parrot tests
19:27 chromatic Probably.
19:28 particle that metric intrigues me.
19:28 Util Rakudo: 11672 subtests
19:29 particle considering the subset of parrot that rakudo actually uses.
19:30 particle msvc parrot passes 11797 tests, probably more on linux.
19:30 particle so... close.
19:30 moritz so it's close ;-)
19:30 Util Parrot: 12068 subtests
19:31 particle ~400 tests.
19:31 chromatic Thank you everyone.
19:31 Util Rakudo has the advantage of a spec, from which to write (even not-yet-compilable) spectests.
19:33 moritz shouldn't the PDDs fill the same role?
19:33 chromatic They're not as well tested as they should be.
19:34 particle io tests existed long before the implementation, they were developed along with the pdd
19:34 particle anyway, parrot needs better test coverage.  a pir profiler will help with that.
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