Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-07-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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15:12 whiteknight (Preposting very early because I'm busy. Might not be at the meeting today)
15:12 whiteknight What I did:
15:13 whiteknight - Fixed an issue (TT#834) where exit codes were not being set correctly from die
15:13 whiteknight - Added some documentation about "MRO" and "C3" per request
15:14 whiteknight - Work on Windows 64-bit platform. Parrot now builds there (with some Configure.pl command line help) but doesn't pass all tests
15:14 whiteknight What I will do:
15:15 whiteknight - Helping with some of the deprecation tasks (if bacek++ doesn't steal them all first!)
15:15 whiteknight - More IO Work, hopefully starting on AIO.
15:15 whiteknight What I am blocking on:
15:15 whiteknight - Nothing
15:15 whiteknight EOR
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16:32 cotto # What I did:
16:32 cotto * got opsc (+ tests) working with explicit ops preambles
16:32 cotto * kicked 1.4 out the door (+ associated release managering)
16:32 cotto # What I hope to do and how many tuits I expect to have:
16:32 cotto * now back to your regularly scheduled opsc hacking (tuit outlook is good)
16:32 cotto .eor
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17:26 Util # Done:
17:26 Util * Tried TT #835, but could not find the GC bug.
17:26 Util # Plan for next week:
17:26 Util * Giving talk at Atlanta.pm on YAPC::NA::2009, including Parrot VM Workshop details.
17:26 Util * TT #691 Candidate patch
17:26 Util * Kill off Parrot_io_write
17:26 Util # Blockers:
17:26 Util * No tuits until Saturday evening.
17:26 Util .end
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17:37 fperrad # What I did :
17:37 fperrad * smoke some languages before release
17:38 fperrad * release 1.4.0 : Windows packages at SourceForge
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17:38 fperrad .eor
18:11 allison - Worked on install tickets. Made good progress, you can now build and test Pynie and Tcl completely from an installed parrot (with a removed build directory) on various flavors of Linux. Mac OS X still has library linking issues.
18:11 allison - Built Debian and Ubuntu preview packages for 1.4.0, no problems.
18:11 allison - Will be mostly AFK until Friday when OSCON ends, but will have substantially more free time after that. My priorities are Debian/Ubuntu packaging first, then pcc_rewiring. Drop me a message or catch me on IRC next week if there are items you'd like to make sure get on my task list.
18:11 allison EOR
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18:22 * darbelo posted his #ps report at http://www.parrot.org/cont​ent/week-decnum-dynpmcs.-0
18:29 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
18:29 chromatic Fixed some bugs.
18:30 chromatic Will remove some deprecated features and work on pluggable runcores this week.
18:32 chromatic Hello, everyone.
18:33 allison hi
18:33 Util hi
18:33 fperrad hello
18:34 japhb o/
18:35 chromatic Where's our 1.5 roadmap?
18:35 allison https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/14
18:36 allison we also need to review 2.0 tasks to spread them across the next 6 months
18:36 cotto hi
18:36 chromatic Let's set some priorities though.
18:36 NotFound joined #parrotsketch
18:36 chromatic Suggestions: PCC rewiring, PIRC.
18:36 allison our overall priority for the next 6 months is "production users"
18:36 chromatic That's vision.
18:37 Topic for #parrotsketchis now Vision for 2.0: Production Users
18:37 allison the monthly priorities should support that
18:37 NotFound Sorry, I'm clock-blind today.
18:37 allison pcc_rewiring is an optimization, and so supports the overall goal. PIRC is interface and internals cleanup, so supports the same
18:38 cotto How does pirc fit in with a pure pir pir compiler?
18:38 allison cotto: they're orthogonal
18:39 chromatic Easier to maintain than IMCC until we use only a pure PIR PIR compiler.
18:39 cotto ok
18:40 allison the two other highest priorities from 2.0 I see are "prune c data structures" which should be scheduled early, perhaps 1.6
18:40 allison and "documentation sprint", which should be on the priority list for every month between now and 2.0
18:41 chromatic Anyone else, thoughts?
18:41 Tene allison: pcc_rewiring isn't just an optimization.  It also allows :vtable(invoke), which we can't do otherwise.
18:42 NotFound And it will allow to clean and fix other things, I hope.
18:42 allison Tene: curiously, for once the optimization itself is a priority (in addition to opening up new features and cleanups)
18:42 japhb Is the idea that people be using pure PIR code in production at 2.0, or use a Parrot HLL in production at 2.0?
18:42 Tene Okay.
18:43 allison japhb: both
18:43 japhb s/at/soon after/, if you like
18:43 japhb Then my impression is that there's going to have to be a LOT of optimization between now and then.  Not percentages faster, but multiples might be nice.
18:43 japhb Like a similar improvement as with the IO layer.
18:44 chromatic We might be able to double the speed.
18:44 allison are there specific optimization tasks we could add to the roadmap?
18:45 allison (a general "optimize" task is too broad)
18:45 spinclad lots of profiling
18:45 japhb Rakudo is, depending on operation, 1-2 orders of magnitude too slow for some of the stuff I want to do.  And I went spelunking, a lot of that appears to be the "Perl 6 lexical scope == PIR sub" equivalence.  It's REALLY slow.
18:45 chromatic The profiling runcore is essential.
18:45 allison japhb: so this may be a good time to explore scopes smaller than a sub
18:46 japhb I have a couple loops where I replaced an inner loop of a couple lines of Perl 6 with an equivalent Q:PIR, and got 6-10 times faster.
18:46 allison japhb: more experimental, so wouldn't put it on the roadmap, but worth an RFC ticket
18:47 japhb The other problem may be a Perl 6 spec issue, or may be a Rakudo implementation issue:  A lot of overhead is created by needing to make new $_, $!, $/ each scope
18:47 japhb (I think those are the three, I don't have the PIR in front of me)
18:47 chromatic This is getting technically specific; it may be better in #parrot or #perl6.
18:47 japhb sorry
18:48 japhb Just wanted to bring up some of the issues that Parrot *may* be able to help with to get the HLL's faster.  Because right now the HLLs seem to be spending their energy just trying to get fully working, and Parrot is arguably already there and on to the next task.
18:49 chromatic Sure; this is the time to discuss development priorities.  I don't want to get too deeply into how they work, just what they are.
18:49 japhb If we expect HLLs to be production-usable when Parrot reaches 2.0, Parrot needs to help them get there performance-wise.
18:49 allison japhb: yes, performance is definitely a high priority for 2.0
18:50 NotFound Some optimization in the code generation by the compiler may also be a good approach.
18:50 japhb NotFound: Yes.  And I think PCT and lower layers may be a good place for that.
18:50 japhb Language-specific code gen improvements are great, but they don't benefit the other HLLs.  :-)
18:50 NotFound Sure, if PCT does some optimizations, we can hope it will do for all compilers.
18:51 japhb Is pmichaud around?
18:51 chromatic Should we consider an optimization stage for PCT?
18:51 japhb chromatic: I think that would be very valuable, yes.
18:51 allison chromatic: it has definite potential, and we've designed it to accept one
18:51 allison NotFound: could you make an RFC ticket for potential PCT optimizations, we can review it next week and decide whether to add it to the roadmap
18:52 NotFound allison: I don't think I'm familiarized enough with PCT for that task.
18:52 allison NotFound: you can make it a list of questions
18:52 japhb What's PCT's bus number?   2?  (pmichaud and Jonathan?)
18:53 NotFound I'll give it a try, then.
18:53 chromatic Let's move to questions.  Does anyone have a question?
18:55 chromatic Okay.  Let's do a brief review of the 1.0 -> 1.4 releases.
18:55 chromatic What went right?
18:55 NotFound Quick question:
18:55 NotFound Is someone still working on longopt refactoring?
18:56 NotFound Looks like no ;)
18:56 Util NotFound: ticket number?
18:57 NotFound I think there is none, just hear someone commenting about some months ago on irc.
18:58 NotFound The issue was to wait for that before stopping to depend on imcc_main from parrot main.
18:59 NotFound Forget it, I'll open a ticket.
19:00 chromatic Thoughts on what went right?
19:01 allison It was a very smooth release, cotto++ for the advanced planning.
19:01 Util Went right: released on time and followed deprecation policy (met our promises to users)
19:01 allison We got good platform testing.
19:02 chromatic The development priorities of the last month seemed to work fairly well.
19:03 chromatic What went wrong?
19:04 japhb chromatic: Unfortunately, if priority 1 and priority 1.5 were well met, priority 2 (HLL interop) got less attention.
19:04 japhb Not "none", but not enough.
19:05 chromatic Priority 3 had one person working up until Sunday night.
19:06 allison One branch merge last week was not as smooth as it could have been. For 2.0 we may want to consider holding off branch merges entirely in the week before the release.
19:07 chromatic We put off a lot of tickets and milestones again.
19:08 allison Yes, we're getting better at estimating, but still further to go.
19:08 chromatic I think setting priorities and finding multiple people for tasks will help.
19:09 allison I think so too
19:09 japhb Instead of milestones, why not a prioritized (longer) list?  It's a bit of a downer to miss goals each release.
19:10 allison Also, setting expectations more accurately. If we divide up the 2.0 roadmap tasks we'll have 1 or 2 each month, instead of the 6+ we had every month between 1.0 and 1.4
19:10 chromatic Maybe we should prioritize them based on niceness to have, so that we'll work on the most important sooner.
19:10 allison japhb: the advantage of dividing it up monthly is you *know* what to work on that month, instead of staring at a large list and being overwhelmed
19:11 allison japhb: but, it is okay for tasks to slip between months, as long as they're on target for 2.0
19:11 allison chromatic: also, we may need to break down some of the tasks so they have multiple entries
19:12 japhb allison: do we believe that if we slip a little each month, there's enough slack to still be on target for 2.0?
19:12 allison chromatic: I noticed that we scheduled some of the bigger tasks for the end in the last cycle, with the thought that we'd have 4 months to work on it, but no entry for that work in earlier months
19:12 chromatic Sounds like we're in the "What to change?" stage.
19:13 allison chromatic: yes
19:14 chromatic Let me summarize then:
19:14 allison japhb: that depends on the slippage, if it's "no work was done at all in this month" then no. If it's "branch merged in just after release" then yes.
19:14 chromatic - schedule milestones by their importance
19:15 chromatic - break milestones into smaller pieces
19:15 chromatic - recruit multiple people to work on each milestone
19:15 allison chromatic: sounds like good action items
19:16 chromatic Any other discussion?
19:18 Util Is the plan for the PIR profiler written down anywhere, or just in key people's heads?
19:18 chromatic Putting it on the Wiki now.
19:18 Util Excellent
19:26 chromatic Let's call that a day.  Thank you everyone.
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