Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-07-28

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Time Nick Message
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18:01 * darbelo put his report at http://www.parrot.org/cont​ent/week-decnum-dynpmcs-0
18:03 moritz joined #parrotsketch
18:05 Util joined #parrotsketch
18:06 Util # Done
18:06 Util * Tried compiling Parrot with -ObjC on Darwin, for possible iPhone embedding. Compiles and tests OK.
18:07 Util * Presented YAPC Recap at Atlanta PerlMongers. Particular interest was expressed in the PVMW, which I reported as a big success.
18:07 Util - At the after-meeting dinner, I tried to explain L1 to several interested Parrot observers. FAIL.
18:07 Util # Plan for next week:
18:07 Util * Change my testing scripts and parsing from `make fulltest_all` to `make -k fulltest`.
18:07 Util * Resume stalled work
18:07 Util # Blockers:
18:07 Util * Minimal tuits this week.
18:07 Util .end
18:07 cotto # What I did:
18:07 cotto * started documenting the subset of callgrind's output format that we'll need to profile PIR
18:07 cotto - https://trac.parrot.org/pa​rrot/wiki/CallgrindFormat
18:07 cotto # What I hope to do and how many tuits I expect to have:
18:07 cotto * To avoid the runtime overhead of maintaining data structures representing statistics, the runcore will use output a format that can be written incrementally.
18:07 cotto * I'll spend time specifying that format.
18:07 cotto * also, I hope to get some opsc work done.
18:07 cotto * tuit outlook is good
18:07 cotto # What could block my progress:
18:07 cotto * no external blockers
18:07 cotto .eor
18:10 jonathan joined #parrotsketch
18:10 jonathan Rakudo
18:10 jonathan * Lots of metamodel refactoring
18:10 jonathan * Rakudo now has a metaclass distinct from the default p6object one, which means we now poke less stuff into Parrot namespaces
18:10 jonathan * Hunted down a couple of nasty issues; one in the narrowness analysis, another where Any ~~ Object and Object ~~ Any were both true, and another in which we delegated to .^isa in Object.does - not sure how we got away with that for so long
18:10 jonathan * Can introspect what roles a class does and what attributes a class has, which was two of the main remaining missing bits of the introspection interface
18:10 jonathan * Improved .^methods in a few small ways
18:10 jonathan * You can now also introspect roles as well as classes
18:10 jonathan * All in all, I'm close to being able to wrap up the introspection stuff
18:10 jonathan Next week
18:10 jonathan * Need to write my YAPC::EU talk. Started it at least...
18:10 jonathan * Want to focus on trait application and improve our testing situation there
18:10 jonathan * Will try and figure out methods declared on the metaclass, and implement support for that; it's the last deliverable on my Hague Grant that doesn't have significant progress
18:10 jonathan Blockers
18:10 jonathan * Brain cycles
18:10 jonathan .end
18:13 allison joined #parrotsketch
18:15 NotFound Last week lacked time to write a report, this one covers both weeks.
18:15 NotFound * Show size in Out of mem panics
18:15 NotFound * Error on duplicate locals with different type, closing TT #767
18:15 NotFound * Added include file libpaths.pasm
18:15 NotFound * Added example of opengl lib usage from HLLs
18:15 NotFound * Miscellaneous fixes and cage cleaning
18:15 NotFound * Some old patches applied
18:15 NotFound EOR
18:17 allison - Prepared Debian and Ubuntu packages for 1.4, and worked them through the process. We're updated in Debian, and 1.4 is included in Ubuntu Karmic (the 9.10 release, coming up in October).
18:17 allison - Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend YAPC::EU, as I'm still waiting on my UK visa. I'm hoping to make it to Portugal in time for the Thursday hackathon.
18:17 allison - My plan for this week is to revive the pcc_rewiring branch (merging the changes with a fresh branch from trunk).
18:17 allison EOR
18:19 pmichaud_ joined #parrotsketch
18:27 pmichaud_ here's my report for today:
18:27 pmichaud_ What I did (since 2009-07-14):
18:27 pmichaud_ * Rakudo now passing 12,043 spectests (+259 since 07/14)
18:27 pmichaud_ * Delegated the July Rakudo release to moritz++
18:27 pmichaud_ * Presentations on Rakudo and Parrot Compiler Toolkit at OSCON
18:27 pmichaud_ * Fixed PGE so that calls to undefined regexes throw a better exception than "Null PMC Error"
18:27 pmichaud_ * Create a "ins2" branch in Rakudo that can build Rakudo and do "make install" using install-dev Parrot.
18:27 pmichaud_ * Fixed a problem where Rakudo was relying on ordering of attributes.
18:27 pmichaud_ * Fixed a variety of Rakudo bugs in quoting, operator precedence, stringification, etc.
18:27 pmichaud_ * Fixed Code.ACCEPTS.
18:27 pmichaud_ What I'm doing this week:
18:27 pmichaud_ * Working on REPL loop for Rakudo PCT::HLLCompiler
18:27 pmichaud_ * PGE refactors
18:27 pmichaud_ * Adding grammars and regexes to NQP
18:27 pmichaud_ * Continuing work on "make install" in Rakudo's ins2 branch
18:27 pmichaud_ What I'm blocking on:
18:27 pmichaud_ * Insufficient waking hours
18:27 pmichaud EOR
18:29 pmichaud Also for "What I'm doing this week":  Making preparations for the Rakudo BOF at YAPC::EU
18:29 pmichaud (real EOR)
18:34 eternaleye joined #parrotsketch
18:34 Whiteknight What I did:
18:34 pmichaud #ps in -4?
18:34 Whiteknight Ripped out stacks and stack related ops
18:34 Whiteknight EOR
18:34 cotto HELLO
18:34 NotFound Hola
18:34 Whiteknight is there #ps today?
18:34 allison hi
18:34 Util Hi
18:34 darbelo Hi
18:34 Whiteknight hi
18:34 allison yes, I was just waiting for chromatic, but we can get started
18:35 pmichaud Hi
18:35 allison has everyone reported?
18:35 cotto q1q
18:35 * Whiteknight reported too little, too late
18:35 allison okay, questions. cotto?
18:35 cotto I don't think we ever went through the roadmap items for 1.4.0.
18:35 japhb q1q
18:36 allison cotto: we reviewed them every week in the month before the release. Or do you mean something else?
18:36 japhb actually, nevermind, I'll just discuss it in #parrot instead.
18:36 cotto the milestone is still active.  istr that I didn't have permission to close it.
18:37 cotto (or couldn't figure out how to close it)
18:37 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
18:37 allison cotto: ah, I can close it, but you should have permission too
18:37 allison I'll msg you now
18:37 cotto k
18:37 cotto eoq then
18:38 allison other q's?
18:38 pmichaud cotto++   # excellent release
18:38 Whiteknight cotto++
18:38 NotFound I don't remember if I already asked this: can str_dup be deleted?
18:39 chromatic Did everyone see that we have Coverity reports again?
18:39 pmichaud chromatic: I saw it, yes.
18:39 Whiteknight q1q
18:40 Util q1q
18:40 chromatic If anyone wants access, let me know and I'll forward that to Coverity.  EOQ
18:41 Util cancel query
18:41 allison ok, Whiteknight, question?
18:42 * allison forgot to mention that the PIR book is up on Amazon now
18:42 pmichaud url?
18:42 Util NeonOnyx++
18:43 allison http://www.amazon.com/dp/0977920127
18:44 * pmichaud orders a copy.
18:44 pmichaud I've _always_ wanted to learn how to program in PIR!!  :-)
18:44 Whiteknight I wanted to ask about pushaction, pushmark, popmark
18:44 Whiteknight I don't think anybody is using them, and I would like to deprecate them
18:44 pmichaud Whiteknight: I plan to use them, if we don't end up with a better rollback facility soon.
18:45 Whiteknight okay, that's all I needed to hear. They still exist but were reimplemented to not use the stacks system (which is now gone)
18:45 allison Whiteknight: they're changing to a context local stack rather than a global stack, but they stay
18:45 Whiteknight okay. Awesome
18:45 allison Whiteknight: we could likely come up with clearer names, though
18:46 pmichaud (clearer names)++
18:46 Util q1q
18:46 Whiteknight We should add these kinds of tasks to TT #876
18:46 Whiteknight EOQ
18:46 pmichaud (Allison:  If you're not going to be at YAPC::EU, how am I going to get you to autography my copy of the book?  ;-)
18:46 pmichaud *autograph
18:46 allison pmichaud: :)
18:46 allison Util, go ahead
18:47 Util Is there a good explanation of the L1 initiative anywhere? I am getting questions from Atlanta.pm, and am not up to the task.
18:47 Whiteknight There was something up on the wiki, but probably needs more
18:47 moritz Util: purl's reply in #parrot contains some useful links
18:48 Whiteknight it's not an "initiative" so much as a "nice idea" right now
18:48 Util thanks; eoq
18:49 allison Util: aye, I saw your report. It's tough for folks outside the project to get excited about low-level internals like Lorito (L1)
18:49 allison Util: they're mostly still at the level of getting excited about the general idea of Parrot
18:50 allison Util: fortunately, there's lots to talk about there
18:50 Whiteknight right, it's definitely not a topic that will interest beginners
18:50 Util No, at least one of them follows all the #parrot daily
18:50 NotFound Lorito?
18:50 pmichaud "Lorito" == tentative name for L1
18:50 chromatic Allison doesn't like the name L1.
18:50 allison chromatic picked the name Lorito
18:50 NotFound Then I must rename examples/embed/lorito.c to avoid confusions.
18:51 Util allison: but yes, for the most part.
18:51 chromatic NotFound's Spanish is too close to my Spanish!
18:52 allison L1 is unmemorable, and too confusing with general parser terminology, LL(1), etc
18:52 allison other questions?
18:52 NotFound I'll be happy to give up the name for that better usage :)
18:53 allison roadmap/milestone review
18:53 allison https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/14
18:54 allison export conventions (cross hll)
18:54 allison is that done? or, still work ahead?
18:55 pmichaud still work ahead, I think.
18:55 pmichaud I didn't finish documenting in time for the release.
18:55 allison combine that with pdd31-hll interop, and hl interop
18:55 allison should we move it to 1.5 or 1.6?
18:55 pmichaud (instead, I fixed Rakudo so that it would continue to work with the release)
18:55 pmichaud Let's say 1.6
18:55 pmichaud if only because I already know how busy August is.
18:55 allison yes, that was a more important priority
18:56 allison okay, moving all three to 1.6
18:56 allison how about "implement pdd14-numbers"?
18:57 Whiteknight who is even working on that?
18:58 allison it says particle, but I don't remember it being on the 1.4 list (it's not a high priority)
18:58 allison quick show of hands, do we remove it from the roadmap since it has no people? or, reassign it later?
18:59 cotto It sounds like a reasonable task for a dedicated newcomer.
19:00 particle actually, i think that task is mostly modifying pdd14 to reflect the implementation
19:00 cotto up until the "implement it" part
19:00 chromatic We need someone to write up how to implement it in that case.
19:00 allison cotto: yes, the ticket stays, but "a wishlist task a newcomer might take on" isn't a roadmap task
19:00 jonathan How does this relate (if at all) to the work on the decnum things?
19:01 pmichaud is it important that it be on the roadmap?
19:01 pmichaud I don't know that it affects me directly (from a Rakudo or PCT perspective)
19:01 jonathan We need to be able to support bignums and rationals at some point.
19:01 jonathan But it's not exactly Rakudo's most pressing issue right now.
19:01 cotto jonathan, The decnum pms are dynpmcs because we can't redistribute the decNumber code (and it's not designed to be packaged as a dynamic librarty).
19:01 cotto s/rart/rar/
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19:02 jonathan Does that mean that Parrot plans to implement some fallback to them?
19:02 einstein may i put some attention on the ticket #880 and the comment of Whitenight
19:02 darbelo jonathan: I based a big chink of the original proposal on it, but that was before deciding to make decnum aseparate package. They have diverged a bit now.
19:02 allison pmichaud: I don't see it as that important (though nice to have someday), so happy to remove it from the roadmap
19:02 darbelo s/chink/chunk/
19:03 jonathan Would there be any licensing issues arising if, say, Rakudo was to use the decnum dynpms and have them as a dependency?
19:03 jonathan (Or <insert HLL here>?)
19:04 Whiteknight jonathan: no, unless you're including it in your repo
19:04 jonathan OK, thanks.
19:05 cotto relatedly, where's a good place to read up on such issues?  I don't understand the reason Parrot can't distribute decNumber.
19:05 allison okay, I'm unflagging pdd14 on the roadmap
19:05 allison (can be reinstated later if needed)
19:06 allison pir profiling tools?
19:06 allison not done, schedule to 1.7?
19:06 chromatic cotto and I are working on those.  We hope to have them by 1.5, plan to have them by 1.6.
19:06 chromatic The sooner the better for Rakudo, Lua, and Partcl.
19:06 allison okay, will schedule at 1.5, and can move them later as needed
19:07 allison pir debugger, docs?
19:08 allison not done, reschedule to when?
19:08 NotFound I plan to so some work with the debugger when the pcc rewiring is done.
19:08 allison okay, we'll say 1.7
19:09 allison standard seed libraries (postgres, opengl, etc)?
19:09 japhb allison: what about them?
19:09 allison I saw good work going in on opengl
19:09 allison japhb: these are roadmap items
19:09 allison this is a task that really needs to be split into monthlies
19:10 * japhb chuckles ... I had no idea my code had become a roadmap item ....
19:10 allison like, pick 6 seed libraries and do one a month between now and 2.0
19:10 allison for now I'll reschedule to 1.5 so we keep thinking about it
19:11 Whiteknight speaking of 1.5, I'll play release manager unless somebody else wants it
19:11 japhb allison: If the idea is that they be *complete* at some point ... OpenGL completion is blocked on stuff Parrot NCI can't yet do.
19:11 japhb (And has been for ages)
19:11 allison japhb: (it was on the roadmap since last november. It's a good sign of a good roadmap if a task seems like the right thing to do at the time even if someone isn't looking at the roadmap)
19:12 japhb :-)
19:12 NotFound According some quick discussion and fixing before the release, the only HLL that does something with it is lua.
19:12 NotFound it = opengl
19:12 japhb When is Parrot NCI rework scheduled?  After PCC rewire is complete?
19:12 Util japhb: is there a ticket for that missing NCI stuff?
19:12 allison japhb: okay, well the fact that it's on the roadmap gives higher priority to fixing those sorts of roadblocks
19:12 japhb NotFound: ... and Rakudo, where it Just Works.
19:13 NotFound japhb: I think someone said it uses by mean of embedding pir, or something like that.
19:13 japhb Util: ISTR there was something in RT for at least one of the problems, .... but that's clearly != all of them.
19:14 japhb NotFound: Lua re-wraps the OpenGL binding to fit Lua's OpenGL binding, which is very DWIMy, I believe.
19:14 allison On to 1.5 roadmap tasks (a quick triage)
19:14 allison packfile pmcs?
19:14 allison do we have anyone working on it? reschedule or remove from roadmap?
19:15 japhb NotFound: If you're referring to Rakudo, Rakudo has not needed Q:PIR to access OpenGL for a bit now, thanks to the nascent hll-interop.
19:16 allison any objections to moving packfile pmcs to 2.6?
19:16 NotFound japhb: fine, I must have misunderstood something.
19:16 allison (that is, it needs to be done, but not urgently, and not a priority for 2.0)
19:17 chromatic I thought we had them now.
19:17 allison mmmm... looking the ticket it might be closable
19:17 chromatic I think they're also a prerequisite for PIRC and PCT -> PBC.
19:18 pmichaud my understanding is they were needed for pirc, yets.
19:18 pmichaud *yes
19:18 allison and are they done?
19:19 pmichaud not as far as I know... the pirc folks can answer that.
19:19 chromatic In kj's absence, let's find the author and ask him.
19:19 jonathan I think that a lot of work has been done by bacek++ and Infinoid++ and maybe others on packfile PMCs.
19:19 allison okay, will hold the ticket in 1.5 for now, this week we can get more details from people who aren't here at the moment
19:20 allison vtable swap (e.g. bignum)?
19:20 allison Do we plan to complete this for 2.0?
19:20 allison or, after 2.0?
19:20 chromatic I think it's doable.  I'll talk to bacek about his Key changes; it might be less useful now.
19:20 jonathan Is there a write-up of what this really means?
19:21 jonathan I'm guessing there's more to it than just "change a PMCs vtable point" :-)
19:21 jonathan erm, pointer
19:21 allison chromatic: doable, but is it a priority?
19:21 chromatic It could simplify vtable code substantially.
19:21 chromatic I *know* there are bugs and malfeasances in the Key code due to their complexity.
19:22 allison does that work toward our "production users" vision?
19:22 chromatic Only in the quality of implementation and ease of writing new code sense.
19:23 allison (I'm happy either way, but I don't want to keep roadmap tasks that will distract from the goal rather than aiding it)
19:23 chromatic Let's leave it untouched until I talk to bacek.
19:23 allison sounds good
19:23 chromatic We can reschedule or remove it if it's less necessary now.
19:23 allison pirc?
19:24 allison do we expect that for 2.0?
19:25 allison it's an ongoing task, but doesn't really need to be tied to a particular deadline
19:25 chromatic The bus number is too low for my comfort there.
19:25 allison and it's more of an internals cleanup than user facing
19:25 allison reschedule to 2.6?
19:26 chromatic We need to talk to kj first.
19:27 allison okay, can you talk to kj and bacek about those two items this week?
19:27 allison (want to make sure someone has it on their todo list)
19:27 chromatic Will do.
19:27 allison the last item "pluggable runloops"
19:28 allison is that in progress now?
19:28 chromatic Yes.
19:28 cotto That'll happen as part of profiling.
19:29 particle JOY
19:29 allison excellent
19:29 allison we'll keep that in 1.5
19:29 allison next week we'll break up the 2.0 tasks over the next 6 months
19:29 allison (this is enough roadmap review for one day)
19:30 allison anything else before we close?
19:31 allison wunderbar, thanks everybody!
19:31 Util left #parrotsketch
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