Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-08-25

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Time Nick Message
01:39 particle joined #parrotsketch
12:17 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
12:39 masak joined #parrotsketch
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17:29 pmichaud joined #parrotsketch
17:40 pmichaud my report for today's #ps
17:40 pmichaud What I did (since 2009-08-18):
17:40 pmichaud * Worked on updating Rakudo's Configure system to better detect when "make install-dev" hasn't been done for Parrot
17:40 pmichaud * Assisted with Rakudo #20 ("PDX")
17:40 pmichaud * Did more planning for handling of lexicals and parameter bindings
17:40 pmichaud What I'm doing this week:
17:40 pmichaud * Grant-related administrative things
17:41 pmichaud * Finishing up Lisbon-related posts and planning activities for Rakudo Star
17:41 pmichaud * Working on many NQP updates
17:41 pmichaud What I'm blocking on:
17:41 pmichaud * Insufficient waking hours
17:41 pmichaud EOR
17:44 rdice joined #parrotsketch
17:49 whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
17:51 Tene REPORT:
17:51 Tene Um, dunno.
17:51 Tene I said I'd do some stuff for masak and japhb.
17:51 Tene Haven't had time yet.
17:51 Tene KTHXBAI
17:57 mikehh_ joined #parrotsketch
17:58 darbelo joined #parrotsketch
18:02 NotFound What I did:
18:02 NotFound * Set auto_attrs flag in most remaining PMCs.
18:02 NotFound * Fixed some issues in the order of initialization of the interpreter.
18:02 NotFound * Replaced logic in Object.clone that duplicated functionality of
18:02 NotFound Parrot_oo_find_vtable_override to a call of the later.
18:02 NotFound * Cage cleaning related to the recent merges.
18:02 NotFound What I will do:
18:02 NotFound * Keep looking at the recent merges.
18:02 NotFound * Take a look at interdepences between oo.c and Object and Class PMCs.
18:02 NotFound EOR
18:08 jonathan joined #parrotsketch
18:11 cotto # What I did:
18:11 cotto * finally understood the actual purpose of contexts thanks to allison++
18:11 cotto * ran some quick and dirty experiments to see if the current context + the current sub is sufficient for profiling
18:11 cotto - it looks promising now that I understand contexts
18:11 cotto # What I hope to do and how many tuits I expect to have:
18:11 cotto * use the context "stack" as a way to map beween CPS and Callgrind's call/return expectations
18:11 cotto * hopefully, get the code cleaned up and merged
18:11 cotto # What could block my progress:
18:11 cotto * nothing external
18:11 cotto eor
18:11 cotto q1q
18:11 allison joined #parrotsketch
18:11 mikehh What I did
18:11 mikehh * testing, testing, testing
18:11 mikehh * on both amd64 and i386 with gcc and g++
18:11 mikehh * built and tested rakudo, partcl and cardinal
18:11 mikehh * but lua failed to build
18:11 mikehh * fixed codetest (and distro_tests) failures and manifest_tests failure
18:11 mikehh What I want to do
18:11 mikehh * more of the same
18:11 mikehh * incorporate nqp_test into smolder_test and test (not as separate step)
18:12 mikehh * and missing tests into fulltest
18:12 mikehh eor
18:12 kid51 joined #parrotsketch
18:13 allison - Continued work on test failures in the pcc_arg_unify branch. Added 2700 test failures when I got the PIR version of Test::More working (printing out the plan so the tests were counted). Resolved 2500 of them when I switched MultiSub to use the new argument passing scheme.
18:13 allison - Spent some time answering Tene's questions, he did some great work on pcc branch test failures too.
18:13 allison - The email2trac interface is working now, replying to a ticket status message on parrot-tickets will add a comment to the ticket in Trac.
18:13 allison - Reminder: Parrot Foundation elections are today.
18:13 allison EOR
18:14 darbelo The past:
18:14 darbelo * Busy week. Didn't get to do much coding.
18:14 darbelo * Forgot to thank cotto++ for being an excelent mentor.
18:14 darbelo * GSoC is done. I CAN HAZ GOOGLES COTTON!
18:14 darbelo * Started documenting the PMCs.
18:14 darbelo The future:
18:14 darbelo * Will write a big summary of this summer.
18:14 darbelo * Still plan to work on decnum-dynpmcs.
18:14 darbelo * Started getting evil ideas for the future of decnum-dynpmcs.
18:14 darbelo EOR
18:14 jonathan Rakudo
18:14 jonathan * Got my Hague Grant finished up, submitted final report
18:14 jonathan * Was mostly just getting traits on variables and attributes functional
18:14 jonathan * Expect there will be some ongoing spec tweakery around that, but we have something that works now
18:14 jonathan * Plus tests for that of course...
18:14 jonathan * Rakudo day today has mostly been bug fixes and also...
18:14 jonathan Blizkost
18:14 jonathan * New project to embed Perl 5 in Parrot and expose it through HLLCompiler interface
18:14 jonathan * Already got it to the stage that you build and install it, and then eval('print "hello from Perl 5"', :lang<perl5>) will work
18:15 jonathan * Will be loads of harder bits later on of course, but it's not a bad outcome for half a day's hacking
18:15 jonathan * Planning to have a pretty free policy on commit access to it
18:15 jonathan * It's on github: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/tree/master
18:15 jonathan Parrot
18:15 jonathan * Fixed a PCT bug today. One that I-- introduced, not pmichaud++. :-)
18:15 jonathan .end
18:15 jhorwitz what i did:
18:15 jhorwitz * fixed broken mod_parrot due to API deprecations
18:15 jhorwitz * began looking at mod_perl6 failures but ran out of tuits
18:15 jhorwitz * some foundation financials
18:15 jhorwitz EOR
18:20 duk3leto What I did:
18:20 duk3leto * Attempted to work with rurban's patch  to fix the Complex NaN bug (TT #358), but failed.
18:20 duk3leto * Wrote many tests for the proper handling of Inf/NaN, which exposed some bugs in fdiv, cmod and mod when using PMCs
18:20 duk3leto * Updated editor documentation regarding generating tags
18:20 duk3leto * Found out that sin and asin are implemented, as well as sinh but not asinh.
18:20 duk3leto * Updated documentation about math functions in Ch04 of The PIR Book
18:20 duk3leto * Signed up to be the release manager of Parrot for October. Exciting!
18:20 duk3leto What I want to do:
18:20 duk3leto * Add missing trig functions as dynops
18:20 duk3leto * Continue testing NaN/Inf errors
18:20 duk3leto EOR
18:26 japhb Done:
18:26 japhb * Day one of Parrot Plumage implementation work ...
18:26 japhb * Which turned out not to involve any implementation,
18:26 japhb * But rather creating the repo and SHOUTING FILES,
18:26 japhb * Doing a bunch of NQP exploration,
18:26 japhb * And finally blogging about it.
18:26 japhb * Response was mixed.
18:26 japhb * pmichaud++ for perfectly timed skillful mentoring and talking me down to earth.
18:26 japhb To do:
18:26 japhb * Lots.  No really, LOTS.
18:26 japhb Blockers:
18:26 japhb * Lack of $time and surplus of @work_tasks
18:26 japhb EOR
18:30 Util joined #parrotsketch
18:30 whiteknight What I did:
18:30 whiteknight * Merged the pmc_sans_unionval branch into trunk. jessevdam++
18:30 whiteknight * Examined the fixed-size allocator, it's malfunctioning so it's been turned off.
18:30 whiteknight * Moral support for bacek and the context_pmc3 branch
18:30 whiteknight * Misc fixes, testing, cleaning
18:30 whiteknight What I am doing:
18:30 whiteknight * More of the same
18:30 whiteknight What I am blocking on:
18:30 whiteknight * Nothing
18:31 Util # Done:
18:31 Util * NULL
18:31 Util # Plan for next week:
18:31 Util * Packfile PMC issues
18:31 Util # Blockers:
18:31 Util * Tuit chaos.
18:31 Util .end
18:32 treed joined #parrotsketch
18:32 whiteknight hello
18:32 allison hi all
18:32 Coke joined #parrotsketch
18:32 japhb o/
18:33 mikehh hello there
18:33 Coke I have a belated one line report.
18:33 Util hi
18:33 allison Coke: drop it in whenever
18:33 cotto good day
18:33 NotFound Hola
18:33 darbelo Hello
18:33 Coke r40628 has a really big memory leak, making parrot unusable for partcl at HEAD.
18:33 Coke .
18:34 duk3leto 'ello
18:34 darbelo ENOCHROMATIC
18:34 allison IIRC, chromatic said he'd be missing this week, so let's go ahead
18:34 whiteknight I think I have a fix for r40628, haven't had any time to test the patch though
18:34 whiteknight will get on that tonight
18:34 Coke whiteknight: I can test it, post it on the ticket. =-)
18:34 allison Any missed reports?
18:35 allison Any questions?
18:35 whiteknight q1q
18:35 cotto q1q (total of one)
18:35 duk3leto q1q ?
18:35 whiteknight "queue 1 question"
18:35 allison whiteknight: go ahead with your question
18:36 whiteknight brought up on the list a little: the context_pmc3 branch. I think we need to iron out the deprecation issues that might prevent that from being merged
18:36 duk3leto ok, 10-4. I would like to q1q
18:36 allison whiteknight: I'll review the branch today or tomorrow
18:37 whiteknight okay, I'm not in a huge rush, but I want to make sure the deprecation policy doesn't require a cycle to make changes to internals
18:37 allison whiteknight: it's likely possible to make the API functions/macros backward compatible, but can't be sure until I look at it
18:37 whiteknight okay, fair enough. On a related note, if people want access to our contexts, we should put an API together for that
18:37 allison (I'm doing the same on the pcc branch, making API functions backward compatible)
18:38 whiteknight because there is a lot of direct-poking at structure fields going on that shouldn't be going on
18:38 whiteknight ok
18:38 whiteknight EOQ
18:38 allison whiteknight: honestly, contexts and return continuations (and possibly also call signatures) are likely all collapsing anyway
18:39 whiteknight right. turning them into PMCs now is the first logical step in that I think
18:39 allison down to one "call state" object
18:39 allison right
18:39 whiteknight yes, and I would like to deploy CallState by 2.0, instead of wating till post-2.0 to start i
18:39 * whiteknight has stupid fingers today
18:39 pmichaud see also my note on parrot-dev about "rakudo can't wait for this until February 2010"
18:39 allison so, the "interface" may be no more than adding a :call_state parameter type to get the object
18:40 allison pmichaud: on the flip side, merging in a branch without a sane migration strategy will cause Rakudo more pain than it'll ease
18:41 pmichaud allison: my note addresses that.
18:41 allison pmichaud: okay, will take a look
18:41 pmichaud the pain of waiting is becoming much greater than the pain of breakage.
18:41 allison (no need to duplicate discussions from the mailing list here)
18:41 pmichaud we can address breakage.  We can't do much about a wait.
18:42 jonathan (sorry, store took longer than I thought, here now)
18:42 whiteknight especially if it's a wait-because-of-policy
18:42 allison policy is there for a reason, it saves us from shooting ourselves in the foot :)
18:42 whiteknight and I just want to make sure the policy is sane, consistent, and does what we all need it to do
18:43 pmichaud actually, the policy isn't saving us from that either (see note at bottom of my message :-)
18:43 allison but, it is perfectly possible to do a stepped migration that preserves an old interface
18:43 whiteknight it does no good if the policy shoots us in the foot, to prevent other things from doing the same
18:43 whiteknight okay
18:43 kurahaupo joined #parrotsketch
18:44 allison it's not a binary choice between "change everything now" and "change nothing"
18:44 mikehh as I understand it - the changes are to the internals (which some languages are using) not to the interface
18:44 whiteknight right, if this change affects them, it's probably because they weren't using an interface in the first place
18:45 jonathan Rakudo probably has in a couple of places poked into internals that I would not count as unreasonable to have changed.
18:45 allison won't know until I look at the branch
18:45 whiteknight okay, thanks.
18:46 jonathan I fully expect when the calling conventions branch lands to have to change a bit of Perl6MultiSub, for example.
18:46 jonathan (In fact, I'll get to delete about 40-50 lines of code.)
18:46 allison cotto: you had a question?
18:47 cotto This week instead of having a nonspecific priority like "testing", how about trying to increase test coverage by (e.g.) 3% on a specific platform?
18:47 allison cotto: sounds reasonable, do we have a way of measuring percentage of test coverage?
18:47 cotto make cover
18:47 japhb Cotto, I thought the current week's priority (see /topic) was pretty specific ...
18:48 cotto that was for last week, iiuc
18:48 allison cotto: and which platform?
18:48 japhb cotto, sorry, I meant last week, yes
18:49 japhb cotto, but is that priority completed?
18:49 NotFound We're not stable again, this is still a priority
18:49 allison japhb: merging branches is an ongoing task
18:49 japhb That's what I thought ... so my suggestion is to keep that priority and focus.
18:50 allison are there more branches pending merge?
18:50 cotto mj41 has a bot set up to run make cover and publish the results.  We could go with whatever platforms he's running to prevent the need for users to run make cover.
18:50 cotto (he has x86 and x64 builds going iirc)
18:50 allison or, are we on "get stable after branch merges" instead
18:50 kid51 joined #parrotsketch
18:50 allison cotto: that's general again, harder to target
18:51 NotFound The later
18:51 NotFound There is a memory leak waiting fix, mainly.
18:51 pmichaud will the calling conventions branch land before the release?
18:51 pmichaud are there other branches that are expected to land before the release?
18:51 allison so, priority this week "stability after branch merges, increase test coverage on LInux x86"
18:51 allison ?
18:52 allison I don't plan to merge calling conventions before 1.6, but hope to merge it the week after
18:52 cotto I'd like to see a percentage in there, but yes.
18:53 pmichaud is there _anything_ that can be done to speed up the calling conventions branch?  it's been "postponed" for months now.
18:53 allison cotto: I don't have a sense of how many tests 3% would be, so don't know if it's a reasonable 1-week target
18:53 cotto We can set a goal and see how reasonable it is to meet during the week.
18:54 allison pmichaud: it was postponed by my paying job, that always eats up the summer
18:54 allison pmichaud: so, yes, there's one thing that would speed it up, but it's not a likely thing :)
18:54 Topic for #parrotsketchis now Vision for 2.0: Production Users | Priority for 1.6: Merge Branches | Priority for this week: stability after branch merges, increase test coverage on Linux x86 by 3% | https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ProposedParrotsketchProtocol | Note: This channel is only for our Tuesday status meetings; you probably want #parrot instead.
18:54 NotFound Win the lotto?
18:54 japhb NotFound, I am *so* working on that.
18:55 allison pmichaud: on the plus side, I'm pretty much off the rest of the year
18:55 japhb US "MegaMillions" lottery is up to 1/4 Billion dollars ....
18:56 allison cotto: how about we don't attach a percentage this week, and see how much can get done this week?
18:56 cotto sounds great
18:56 Topic for #parrotsketchis now Vision for 2.0: Production Users | Priority for 1.6: Merge Branches | Priority for this week: stability after branch merges, increase test coverage on Linux x86 | https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ProposedParrotsketchProtocol | Note: This channel is only for our Tuesday status meetings; you probably want #parrot instead.
18:57 Topic for #parrotsketchis now Vision for 2.0: Production Users | Priority for 1.6: Merge Branches | Priority for this week: stability after branch merges, increase test coverage on Linux x86 (no %, calibrating workload) | https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ProposedParrotsketchProtocol | Note: This channel is only for our Tuesday status meetings; you probably want #parrot instead.
18:57 japhb sorry for collision
18:57 allison japhb: yours is clearer
18:57 allison duk3leto: you had a question?
18:58 kid51 q1q
18:58 cotto for the record, current test coverage is 65.8% (http://tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/cover/cover-results/40769/c_cover/)
18:59 duk3leto allison: implementing other trig functions as dynops that Rakudo currently manually implements. good idea?
18:59 duk3leto such as, asinh and friends
18:59 allison pmichaud: do you have an opinion on that, would dynops be helpful?
19:00 duk3leto the "obscure" math ops are badly named, i am thinking of a dynop containing all the extra trig ops
19:00 pmichaud for Rakudo, I suspect not so much
19:00 pmichaud unless it's a huge speed win (which it could be), we're likely to keep the Perl 6 definitions around
19:00 duk3leto i meant to say, a dynop collection that contains all the extra non-core trig ops
19:00 pmichaud for other languages it could be a big bonus, however.
19:01 allison duk3leto: go ahead, and shouldn't they be in math.ops?
19:01 allison (I mean src/dynoplibs/math.ops)
19:01 duk3leto allison: i am indifferent to where they go. currently only the rand dynops are in there, and then the obscure trig ops are in obscure.ops
19:01 mikehh on my last run of make cover I got 68.1% on i386 and 64.6% on amd64
19:02 allison or, to split them out, make it math_trig.ops
19:02 duk3leto allison: splitting them out sounds better to me, that way, people only load small sets of dynops that they actually want
19:03 allison duk3leto: sounds good
19:03 whiteknight 360 tests, about
19:04 allison kid51: you had a question?
19:04 kid51 I will be meeting with members of Buffalo.pm tonight and Toronto.pm on Thursday.  Is there any task in either Parrot or Rakudo that almost-complete-newcomers can take on (apart from Smolder testing of Parrot)?
19:05 whiteknight writing tests
19:05 allison kid51: look at docs.parrot.org and tell us what makes absolutely no sense to a newcomer
19:06 allison kid51: fresh eyes are incredibly valuable for that
19:06 kid51 whiteknight:  I doubt noobs can write tests;  Allison:  that's a useful suggestion
19:06 pmichaud kid51:  Rakudo needs programs written in p6
19:07 kid51 pmichaud:  Noted; I'll be passing out copies of your use.perl posts
19:07 pmichaud excellent :)
19:07 NotFound And if all makes sense, they are no more complete-newcomers ;)
19:07 duk3leto kid51: testing out examples and making sure they work on all platforms. especially sdl and opengl, which have some bugs
19:08 duk3leto kid51: just getting bug reports for which platforms the examples are not working on will be very valuable.
19:09 kid51 duk3leto:  Yes, we still have some obscure platforms bug reports from the *last* time I was in Toronto -- 17 months ago :(
19:09 japhb duk3leto, kid51, and if you find anyone who knows OS X linking ... recruit them with a vengeance.
19:10 kid51 japhb:  Can you be more specific?  There is one person who might show up in Toronto who knows that stuff, but I'd need very precisely worded tasks.
19:10 NotFound That reports aren't very useful if no one has access to that platforrm.
19:11 kid51 NotFound:  Yes, that was our experience last year.
19:11 NotFound We call them 'obscure' for some reason.
19:11 Coke well, not after 17 months, no. but if we can get on top of them immediately, that's great.
19:11 duk3leto NotFound: knowing something is broken on a platform we don't *currently* have access to is useful. then we can fix the *currently* part
19:11 japhb kid51, basically, I have *no* idea how to fix OpenGL on Mac OS X when it breaks, or even what broke it.  We get it working for a couple releases, and then bam it breaks, and I don't know what to do with the pieces.
19:11 kid51 japhb:  Are there any TTs on that subject?
19:11 Coke I'd be sure to say if you submit a bug report on some obscure platform, you're going to need to do more than just file the initial report.
19:11 japhb kid51, yes, I believe so, checking
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19:12 NotFound duk3leto: I think that asking people for a work that will not have any visible benfit for months or years is discouraging.
19:12 japhb kid51, here's one: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/924
19:12 pmichaud we can get visible benefit if the person filing the bug report can be available for followups
19:13 Coke (that's what I said!)
19:13 pmichaud (yes, I'm agreeing with coke++)
19:13 Coke ^_^
19:13 kid51 japhb:  If you see others, just post on list before thursday
19:13 NotFound pmichaud: agreed, but that's a completely different petition.
19:13 japhb kid51, roger that
19:15 kid51 Thanks for the responses.
19:15 allison any more questions?
19:16 allison Roadmap review for 1.6: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/14
19:16 allison export conventions and hll interop (#566, #567, #568)
19:17 japhb I've had no cycles for that, because of module ecosystem
19:17 japhb Tene?
19:17 japhb Looks like he's away.  I know he's doing some work this week.  (Was planned for last night, but got bumped by his $life)
19:18 allison okay, great, so "in progress"
19:18 allison packfile pmcs?
19:19 allison call it "at risk"
19:19 Util Little progress, but I expect to have more tuits this week.
19:19 allison excellent
19:19 Util "at risk" sounds about right :)
19:20 allison pir profiling tools and pluggable runloops?
19:20 allison looks like the branch is about to merge?
19:20 cotto on track
19:20 allison great
19:20 cotto a merge this week is not overly optimistic
19:21 mikehh if anyone need any branch testing just let me know
19:21 allison cotto: likely before 1.6?
19:21 cotto very
19:21 allison excellent!
19:22 allison standard seed libraries?
19:22 allison the thought for 1.6 was zlib
19:22 allison not a high priority
19:23 allison (beginning to wonder if seed libraries should be on the Parrot roadmap)
19:23 whiteknight +1
19:23 NotFound I don't even started to look at zlib, got distracted by the auto attrs thing
19:23 japhb allison, I delayed working on seed libraries until I know what I need for the module installer
19:24 allison japhb: aye, I'd say that comes first
19:24 allison and, the whole seed libraries question we've pushed off to the module installer
19:25 japhb nod
19:25 allison may be time for a ticket name change, call it "module installer (for standard libraries and extensions)"
19:25 japhb NotFound, if you happen to get a working zlib, that would be cool anyway.  :-)
19:25 allison review objects PDD starts as a task for me, will work on that this week
19:26 allison (split it into any task tickets)
19:26 allison prune c data structures?
19:26 whiteknight PMC got pruned pretty good
19:26 whiteknight PMC_EXT got killed
19:26 whiteknight sort of a side-effect of other work though
19:27 allison aye, but it's a general task
19:27 japhb q1q
19:27 allison the contexts branch is also progress
19:27 whiteknight yes
19:27 whiteknight and the Parrot_Sub structure is gone now
19:28 allison a review of other candidate C structures in the next couple of weeks would be good
19:28 allison that's it for the roadmap review
19:29 allison any other questions, comments, discussions?
19:29 allison ah, japhb had a questions
19:29 allison s/s//
19:29 japhb jonathan or pmichaud: any idea when you would be able to add object attribute declarations to NQP?
19:29 japhb At least private ones?
19:30 pmichaud japhb: it's not high on my priority list at the moment.  I might be able to bump it up a bit if it's not too difficult.
19:30 * japhb planning whether to continue with NQP on next hacking day, or switch temporarily to Rakudo)
19:30 jonathan pmichaud: I probably can if you approve it.
19:30 japhb pmichaud, gotcha
19:30 pmichaud it may fall out of other refactors I'm doing
19:30 pmichaud jonathan: I'm in favor of adding private attributes to NQP; not much more than that, though.
19:30 japhb ISTR pmichaud did approve private attributes
19:30 japhb and there we go
19:30 pmichaud I'm not at all in favor of supporting auto initialization or automatic accessor methods
19:30 pmichaud at least, not yet
19:31 japhb (That's all I really need anyway)
19:32 japhb EOQ I think
19:33 japhb meeting all done?
19:33 allison okay, that's a wrap. thanks everybody!
19:33 Util left #parrotsketch
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