Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-10-27

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Time Nick Message
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16:18 Coke ONE:
16:18 Coke - parrot - slow progress on RT queue. - documented manual update process for docs.parrot.org
16:18 Coke - stir up some PLATFORM updates
16:18 Coke - partcl
16:18 Coke - eliminate toInteger multi, use get_integer VTABLE instead.
16:18 Coke - minor fixups to mathop.test
16:18 Coke - http://partcl.blogspot.com/2009/10/partcl-now-passing-4089-spec-tests.html
16:18 Coke - track changes post PCC merge.
16:18 Coke BLOCKERS (a.k.a. segfaults)
16:18 Coke - Segfaults: TT #1131, #1136
16:18 Coke - Misc: TT #996, #910, #721
16:18 Coke - Can't build partcl against an uninstalled parrot
16:18 Coke COMING:
16:18 Coke - move from TGE/PGE to nqp-rx (pmichaud++) as a guinea pig
16:18 Coke s/^ONE/DONE/ && eor.
16:54 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
16:54 Tene ohright, PS today
16:55 Tene The girlfriend has been visiting for the past week; consequently, I haven't touched Parrot since.  Maybe I need to reexamine my priorities.
16:56 Tene Oh, wait, no... I fixed lolcode a bit.  It still doesn't install, but at least it builds and passes tests.
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17:07 japhb DONE:
17:07 japhb * Mostly it was my turn to be sick this week.  :-(
17:07 japhb * Improve validation of metadata
17:07 japhb * Refactoring and function documentation
17:07 japhb * Much improved Makefile (with automatic Makefile rebuilding)
17:07 japhb WIP:
17:07 japhb * import_proto.p6 (Import proto-managed projects into Plumage metadata)
17:07 japhb * Analyzing discussion surrounding major CPAN META spec upgrade (which is in design phase)
17:08 japhb MAD PROPZ:
17:08 japhb * darbelo++ # Plumage's NQP configure brought to other projects
17:08 japhb * Austin++  # Makefile education
17:08 japhb NEXT UP:
17:08 japhb * Be less sick
17:08 japhb BLOCKERS:
17:08 japhb * import_proto.p6 blocking on proto's installed-modules branch
17:08 japhb EOR
17:15 darbelo THE PAST:
17:15 darbelo * Matrixy infrastructure work.
17:15 darbelo * Parrot-linear-algebra infrastructure work.
17:15 darbelo * Added support for Configure.nqp to plumage projects.
17:15 darbelo * Removed src/gc/res_lea.c and the las traces of the 'malloc' gc.
17:16 darbelo * Folded 'make install-dev' into 'make install'. Badly. thanks to pmichaud++ for fixing that.
17:16 darbelo THE FUTURE:
17:16 darbelo * Exams. Lots of 'em.
17:16 darbelo * Maybe some light parrot hacking.
17:16 darbelo BLOCKERS:
17:16 darbelo * Exams. Lots of 'em. Will probably consume all available tuits.
17:16 darbelo EOR.
17:17 darbelo q2q
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18:01 pmichaud_ What I did:
18:01 pmichaud_ * Practically nothing at all for the Rakudo "Thousand Oaks" release (PerlJam++)
18:01 pmichaud_ * More work on nqp-rx.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Enable multiple bindings in subrule captures  <abc=def=subrule>
18:01 pmichaud_ * Improved quote handling and escapes in quotations, including customizable escapes.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Added word-splitting form of quotes.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Added debug tracing and table dumping capabilities to the regex engine.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Updated protoregexes to understand token prefixes, including transitive token prefixes.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Added <?MARKER> and <?MARKED> builtins to make it easy to keep track of end-of-statement, whitespace, etc.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Added most statement constructs and operators to nqp-rx.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Added lexical subs, with various parameter forms.  Also now allows default expressions.
18:01 pmichaud_ * Had a long discussion about 'fetch' and 'vivify' opcodes on #parrot, looking forward to being able to use those opcodes.
18:01 pmichaud_ What I'm doing this week:
18:01 pmichaud_ * Adding contextual variables to nqp-rx
18:01 pmichaud_ * Adding regexes and grammars to nqp
18:01 pmichaud_ * Completing new NQP implementation, including bootstrap
18:01 pmichaud_ * Starting a new Rakudo branch to switch to nqp-rx based grammar
18:01 pmichaud_ * Implementing a demonstration language (e.g. abc or squaak) using nqp-rx, including a basic tutorial
18:01 pmichaud_ What I'm blocking on:
18:01 pmichaud_ * Available time.
18:01 pmichaud_ EOR
18:02 pmichaud_ Q1Q
18:06 mikehh What I did in the last week:
18:06 mikehh * building and testing parrot - fixing codetest errors etc.
18:06 mikehh * started fixing a couple of tests
18:06 mikehh * started looking to see if rakudo/tools/autounfudge.pl can be adapted to parrot
18:06 mikehh * - the main problem being that there seem to be no standard way tests are skipped in parrot
18:06 mikehh * - I found at least three different ways
18:06 mikehh * looking at g++ 4.4.1 build failures
18:06 mikehh * - seems to be related to different strchr definitions in string.h
18:06 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
18:06 mikehh * testing and fixing
18:06 mikehh * continue working on checking skipped tests
18:06 mikehh .eor
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18:19 chromatic I: fixed a few bugs, made several optimizations (with bacek).
18:19 chromatic I: am working on experimental fetch opcodes for pmichaud.
18:20 chromatic I: will work on STRINGNULL, the opcodes, some optimizations, and perhaps some struct removal.
18:20 chromatic I: might fix bugs in the extension calls, if someone else writes tests for them.
18:20 chromatic I: am blocking on fixing bugs in line numbering, waiting for japhb to extract some tests.
18:20 japhb oh d'oh!
18:24 allison Last week:
18:24 allison - Merged the PCC branch into trunk after the 1.7 release.
18:24 allison - Added a single extend/embed function Parrot_ext_call for calling Parrot subs and methods. Added deprecation notices for the old API functions it replaces.
18:24 allison - Did some work on removing old calling conventions code, more to be done there.
18:24 allison - Released a new version of Pod::Simple (we should think about removing the ancient version we ship with Parrot).
18:24 allison - Started playing with CPython's parser.
18:24 allison Next week:
18:24 allison - Removing up old calling conventions code.
18:24 allison - Pynie
18:24 allison - Scan ticket queue for those needing design decisions
18:24 allison - Open to requests
18:24 allison EOR
18:24 Util # Done
18:24 Util * Attended Southeast User Group Leader Summit, brought to Atlanta by Microsoft and O'Reilly Media. Time well spent.
18:24 Util * Edited [S32/*], correcting 38 problems.
18:25 Util * Wrote beginning of Subs chapter for #perl6book.
18:25 Util * Moved TT#600 (Bytecode testing framework) and TT#606 (Prune C data structures) from 1.7 milestones to 1.8.
18:25 Util * Read http://clang.llvm.org/diagnostics.html , and drooled over the thought of Perl 6 providing that level of diags.
18:25 Util # Plan for next week:
18:25 Util * Probably finish the chapter, then un-stall the tasks from the last 3 weeks.
18:25 Util # Blockers:
18:25 Util * Intermittent connectivity.
18:25 Util .end
18:25 jonathan Rakudo/Parrot
18:25 jonathan * Been working on getting Rakudo compiling under trunk again, using the calling conventions updates
18:25 jonathan * Just about ready to merge that now
18:25 jonathan * Patched a couple of things in Parrot along the way (actually, mostly did bad patches, which caused other people to do better ones in their place - thanks!)
18:25 jonathan * We take a relatively minor runtime performance hit on the benchmarks in tools/benchmark.pl (10%-15%)
18:25 jonathan * However, I didn't really do the changes (e.g. using :call_sig) to take advantage of the PCC changes properly yet, so I am hopeful I can win that back, or most of it
18:25 jonathan * Parsing/compilation seems way, way slower now though, which does hurt a good bit on the spectest run times
18:25 jonathan * Set up KCacheGrind and played with the new Parrot profiler for the first time. Impressed - it's going to tell us Useful Stuff
18:25 jonathan Conferences
18:25 jonathan * Spoke at Italian Perl Workshop - got a decent response
18:25 jonathan Blockers
18:25 jonathan * None really, and I've no travel plans for the next month
18:26 jonathan Worries
18:26 jonathan * Content and CallSignature merge worries me a bit; I'm willing to shut up if I know somebody else will do the patches to make Rakudo run and pass all of its tests on top of it though.
18:26 jonathan .end
18:26 whiteknight WHAT I DID LAST WEEK
18:26 whiteknight (parrot) Talked with chromatic about some GC changes. Looking at my notes. Have high hopes for a new algorithm.
18:26 whiteknight (parrot) Some modest improvements to the fixed-size allocator
18:26 whiteknight (parrot) Replaced calls to Parrot_PCCINVOKE (deprecated) with calls to Parrot_pcc_invoke_method_from_c_args.
18:26 whiteknight (parrot) Added prototype for :call_sig with tests that demonstrate it's use. Very limited.
18:26 whiteknight (parrot) Started work on a prototype load_bytecode op that would return an Eval PMC.
18:26 whiteknight (matrixy) Some record keeping for Matrixy (docs mostly). Updating links to point to github
18:26 whiteknight (pla) Created a new NumMatrix2D PMC type for parrot-linear-algebra. Bare-bones now, but a good framework to add BLAS bindings.
18:26 whiteknight (pla) Parrot-linear-algebra now has proper build and install make targets. Some of this was stolen from Rakudo++.
18:26 whiteknight (pla) dukeleto++, darbelo++ and desertm4x++ for their help in these projects
18:26 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO THIS WEEK:
18:26 whiteknight (parrot) working more on the load_bytecode thing
18:26 whiteknight (matrixy) Creating a new branch to convert Matrixy to use parrot-linear-algebra types instead of nested RPAs
18:26 whiteknight (matrixy) Converting Matrixy's test harness to NQP instead of Perl5
18:26 whiteknight (pla) Adding a test harness and starting a test suite for parrot-linear-algebra
18:26 whiteknight (pla) Planning for a new PMCMatrix2D type that will be a 2D array of PMC pointers
18:27 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON:
18:27 whiteknight * nothing
18:27 whiteknight EOR
18:27 NotFound What I did:
18:27 NotFound * Some bug fixing.
18:27 NotFound * Created a repository for Winxed, a javascript-alike language,
18:27 NotFound and worked on it.
18:27 NotFound What I will do:
18:27 NotFound * Work on Winxed.
18:27 NotFound * Take a look at some tickets and patches.
18:27 NotFound EOR
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18:31 chromatic He336.
18:31 chromatic Num lock.
18:31 whiteknight hello
18:31 mikehh howdy there
18:31 pmichaud_ Hello.
18:31 darbelo Hola
18:31 allison hi
18:31 Util hi
18:31 chromatic Let's review last week.
18:31 chromatic We landed a branch.
18:31 chromatic Rocks fall.  Everyone dies.
18:31 NotFound hola
18:32 whiteknight not EVERYBODY died
18:32 chromatic How else did we do on our weekly goals?
18:32 whiteknight (Matrixy was completely unharmed)
18:32 allison remarkably painless
18:32 NotFound (Winxed fly away)
18:33 mikehh we've got fulltest working and jonathan has nearly got rakudo working
18:33 chromatic Is Coke here?
18:33 Coke hio
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18:34 chromatic I ask because my perception is that the deprecated extension functions to call PCC from C are broken and this caused Coke pain.
18:35 kurahaupo sorry, totally out of tuits this week. <EOR>
18:35 Coke chromatic: my pain was resolved by allison pretty quickly with a new function.
18:35 Coke however, jonathan got bit by the same thing, and I think had a little more of a hard time.
18:36 Coke the root cause there was that the parrot subs we were using weren't tested, and so broke during the pcc changes.
18:36 chromatic Any HLL designer who isn't on channel right now will have the same problem.
18:36 whiteknight Any HLL developing using the C api
18:37 Coke again, the root cause was untested parrot code. improving our code coverage will help ameliorate these types of things (and make the deprecation hoops worth jumping through.)
18:37 chromatic My suggestion: more tests for those functions.
18:37 whiteknight agreed
18:37 chromatic Even though they're deprecated functions, they have an easy replacement and migration.  We can keep the tests even as we remove those functions in January.
18:38 chromatic Other goals for last week?
18:38 whiteknight On the extreme end, every function in extend.c should have a test, and we should have a test to prove that
18:38 Coke whiteknight: 'make cover'
18:39 Coke (a good first start.)
18:39 darbelo chromatic: How about "get the libjit frame builder going again"?
18:39 * kurahaupo has to leave for $DAYJOB
18:39 jonathan Yes - I migrated to the new C interface.
18:39 kurahaupo left #parrotsketch
18:39 jonathan And that's been working fine, but agree, it made the transition more painful than it need have been.
18:39 chromatic Are there docs on migrating to the new interface?
18:39 whiteknight plobsing++ has been doing a really nice job on that new framebuilder
18:39 Coke chromatic: see the Deprecation wiki page. (and I don't think so.)
18:40 chromatic Is there a volunteer to write those docs and link to them in the API documentation in the source?
18:41 allison I've updated the existing API docs
18:41 allison are you looking for more of a migration guide?
18:41 chromatic Yes.
18:41 allison is a wiki page sufficient?
18:42 cotto_work2 q1q
18:42 Coke IMO, yes.
18:42 chromatic +1
18:42 allison (this is me volunteering, since I know the details best)
18:42 Coke (because after a while, no one needs to migrate. relentless progress.)
18:42 jonathan +1 - and mention it in the docs for the deprecated functions.
18:42 allison ok, will add to my list for the week
18:43 chromatic Other thoughts on trying to land the framebuilder branch this week?
18:43 whiteknight I've heard some concerns that supporting multiple JIT engines will be hard
18:43 whiteknight so at the least we should get some eyes on the LLVM documentation to make sure we can support that too
18:43 whiteknight other then that, no concerns
18:44 jonathan By the way, here is the diffstat for switching to the new calling conventions:
18:44 jonathan 8 files changed, 164 insertions(+), 246 deletions(-)
18:44 japhb chromatic, if it lands this week, I *might* have enough cycles to try to push the OpenGL bindings a little farther.  If it lands any later, I probably won't have time to do that for this release cycle
18:44 Util q1q
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18:44 chromatic Any other recommendations for focus this week?  We have two solid onces.
18:44 chromatic ones
18:44 whiteknight parrot-linear-algebra needs the framebuilder too, for all the new exotic LAPACK functions
18:45 mikehh I got started on checking skipped tests - then diverted by trying to get the equivalent of autounfudge.pl in parrot - still working on that
18:45 japhb whiteknight, and at some point, I'd like to coordinate on using your matrices as OpenGL buffers ....
18:46 whiteknight japhb: would love that
18:46 chromatic Let's move on to questions then.
18:46 chromatic darbelo?
18:46 japhb No rush, but that would definitely be a good test of NCI.  :-)
18:46 mikehh q1q
18:46 darbelo pmc_i_ops has been waiting for review for roughly five months now. Can we get a ruling before it bitrots into unmergeability?
18:47 allison what is it?
18:47 allison is there a ticket or wiki page explaining the purpose of the branch?
18:47 Coke q1q
18:48 darbelo It was bacek's attempt to implement some VTABLE operations in term of the in-place ones
18:48 darbelo It's on the branch descriptions page.
18:48 pmichaud_ (repeating my q1q from my report earlier)
18:49 darbelo "Branch to reduce amount of code by reusing i_op from op"
18:49 chromatic I think the answer to the question is "Yes, that can get review."  Should we move that to #parrot?
18:49 whiteknight yes
18:49 allison yes
18:49 darbelo chromatic: sure.
18:50 chromatic darbelo, next question?
18:50 einstein May I ask on this channel on my plan what i described in ticket #1020?
18:51 darbelo We have TT#75 and TT#77 (with a few other friends) What should we do there?
18:51 chromatic einstein, that's probably better in #parrot
18:51 einstein ok
18:51 darbelo Are we even supporting those interfaces anymore?
18:52 chromatic Parrot::Embed needs updating, that's for sure.
18:52 chromatic I will happily trade features for tests, or work with someone to fix the API there.
18:53 darbelo Okay. That's good enough for me.
18:53 chromatic Util, question?
18:54 Util The bottom 2/3rds of t/src/embed.t has been SKIPped for so long, its code has bit-rotted. The SKIP is just for unexported symbols. With PCC landing, wouldn't this be a good time for a PCC specialist to bring embed.t up-to-date? Or will Allison's migration guide be enough that a simple ticket right now would allow someone to fix the tests at a later date?
18:54 allison I'll take a look
18:54 Coke Util: open a ticket and assign it to allison.
18:55 allison will either fix, or put in a ticket telling how to fix
18:55 Util allison: thanks. I will be glad to write the ticket if it is needed. EOQ.
18:55 chromatic Excellent.
18:55 allison that works
18:55 chromatic cotto_work2, question?
18:55 NotFound Util: those tests can be killed, they are counterproducent. I leaved them skipped just in case someone wanted to take a look and update them.
18:55 cotto_work2 We don't currently have a way for C code to generate a PAST, e.g. for users who want to write a lexer/parser in C or C++ and just pass the PAST to the next stage of the compiler.  Is this something we eventually want to support and where does it fit in the roadmap?
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18:57 pmichaud_ if/when we gain the capability to invoke methods from C, this becomes trivial.
18:57 allison cotto: as I understand it, PAST is moving along with nqp
18:57 Coke pmichaud_: pretty sure we can do that now.
18:57 NotFound cotto_work2: Why can't be generated? can't be done by creating some objects and calling some methods or subs?
18:57 pmichaud_ allison: so far PAST is remaining in parrot
18:58 allison pmichaud: (can move offline) doesn't the PAST->PIR transition depend on NQP?
18:58 NotFound pmichaud_: I think we already can invoke methods from c.
18:58 pmichaud_ allison: no.
18:59 pmichaud_ at present PAST->PIR is still pure PIR.
18:59 pmichaud_ there may come a time when we re-implement PAST in NQP, but that isn't happening immediately.
18:59 allison okay, then, cotto, the answer is that building PAST from C is the same as creating any PMCs
19:00 allison or, are you looking for a C API?
19:00 cotto_work2 So it should be possible now, as long as I don't mind building my own callsig?
19:00 allison as in, function calls?
19:00 allison cotto: you don't even need to build a call sig
19:00 allison just ordinary calls
19:00 pmichaud_ all that current compilers do is make method calls on PAST objects to build the PAST tree.
19:00 allison basically, pmc_new for the node and then set the attributes
19:00 cotto_work2 ok
19:01 pmichaud_ don't even need pmc_new
19:01 pmichaud_ because PAST nodes have a 'new' method that does that (and attribute initialization as well)
19:01 jonathan No, just grab the proto-object and .new it.
19:01 pmichaud_ ...what jonathan++ said.
19:01 allison with get_class?
19:01 pmichaud_ look it up in the namespace
19:01 pmichaud_ $P0 = get_hll_global ['PAST'], 'Op'
19:01 pmichaud_ $P1 = $P0.'new'(...arguments...)
19:02 cotto_work2 ok.  O
19:02 chromatic Coke, you had a question?
19:02 cotto_work2 I'll play with that and see how far I can get.
19:02 Coke chromatic: partcl still has at least 2 segfaults remaining.
19:03 Coke the pcc merge let us avoid one (by forcing me to use a different parrot sub), but some are still there. See my report. be nice if we could be segfault free. =-)
19:04 Coke eoq
19:04 chromatic pmichaud_, you had a question.
19:04 pmichaud_ (long question)
19:04 pmichaud_ Currently the parrot executable supports -L and -I options for
19:04 pmichaud_ adding directories to the library path (load_bytecode) and
19:04 pmichaud_ .include path.
19:04 pmichaud_ Unfortunately, -L and -I *append* the directories to the end of
19:04 pmichaud_ the search list, which means that installed versions of a file
19:05 pmichaud_ always take precedence over those in the paths specified by -L/-I.
19:05 pmichaud_ Most implementations of -L/-I *prepend* directories to the search path.
19:05 pmichaud_ (Perl 5, GCC, etc. all prepend paths.)
19:05 pmichaud_ This means that it's very difficult to bootstrap/build/test local
19:05 pmichaud_ copies of modules because the system-installed versions tend to get
19:05 pmichaud_ in the way.
19:05 pmichaud_ Is this a bug, can it be fixed, and does it need a deprecation cycle?
19:05 pmichaud_ EOQ
19:05 allison it can be fixed
19:06 allison and, can skip the deprecation cycle (it's a bug making the feature less-than-usable)
19:06 whiteknight I'd say it's a good idea to change it
19:07 pmichaud_ okay
19:07 pmichaud_ I will change if nobody beats me to it.  Thanks.
19:07 whiteknight bonus points for a patch :)
19:07 pmichaud_ patch is trivial :)
19:07 chromatic mikehh, you had a question.
19:07 pmichaud_ I'll put a note in NEWS/ChangeLog identifying the change.
19:08 NotFound I implemented -I and -L and was not a bug, just a quick addition without much thinking ;)
19:08 mikehh allison mentioned updateing Pod::Simple - book uses Pod::Pseudopod but not in parrot - can we consider that aspect aswell
19:08 japhb NotFound, a bug in your implementation process, then.  :-)
19:08 pmichaud_ NotFound: sometimes one person's bug becomes another person's "gotta have feature"  :)
19:09 allison mikehh: not updating, actually removing
19:09 allison mikehh: (skipping the pieces that use it if it's not installed)
19:09 mikehh allison - whatever
19:09 NotFound If I remember well, I just copy what the pcre test was doing with pir code.
19:10 allison mikehh: yes, worth considering our Pod::PseudoPod policy as well
19:10 allison mikehh: this could all be made much simpler by a Plumage package
19:10 mikehh I had that thought
19:11 japhb Anyone is welcome to trade a gitorious ID and PaFo CLA for a Plumage commitbit.
19:11 japhb Get 'em while they're hot!
19:12 * whiteknight still has to fill out his parrot CLA!
19:12 NotFound BTW if someone want a commit bit on Winxed, just ask.
19:12 mikehh I think I got one somewhere :-}
19:12 chromatic Other questions?
19:12 allison users list?
19:12 cotto_work joined #parrotsketch
19:12 allison (update on)
19:13 allison iirc, Coke was working on that
19:14 cotto_work2 left #parrotsketch
19:15 allison okay, no update, carry on
19:15 chromatic Other questions?  Blockers?  Concerns?  Subtle puns?
19:16 chromatic Note that puns must start with the letter 'P'.  Icelandic thorn is also acceptable.
19:16 japhb *sound of people mousing to their local Character Map equivalent*
19:17 chromatic Too late!  Have a good week, everyone.
19:17 japhb o/
19:17 allison thanks all!
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