Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-11-10

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Time Nick Message
02:04 integral joined #parrotsketch
04:18 kid51 joined #parrotsketch
04:18 kid51 kid51's report
04:18 kid51 * Moved all remaining tickets in RT that were owned by 'nobody' into Trac.
04:18 kid51 * Began work on eliminating dependence on init::defaults from configuration step tests
04:18 kid51 ** configtests branch is main location for this
04:18 kid51 ** but in addition we need to begin to modify config steps after init::defaults to not do look-ups on Perl 5 %Config
04:19 kid51 ** was able to pluck some low-hanging fruit by transforming '$conf->data->get_p5('OSNAME')' to '$conf->data->get('osname') in most locations after auto::arch -- the config step where 'osname' is finally determined: see TT 1194
04:19 kid51 ** two Parrot tests do look-ups on Perl 5 %Config:  see TT 1234 and 1235
04:19 kid51 ** auto::format needs to be modified to avoid this:  see TT 1236
04:19 kid51 ** config/gen/platform.pm needs to be reworked so that 'platform' is determined at same time as 'osname'; ticket to be opened after above tickets close
04:19 kid51 ** medium-term objective:  no get_p5 calls or lookups to %Config after config step init::default
04:19 kid51 * libjit
04:19 kid51 ** Does the libjit_framebuilder branch completely supersede the auto_libjit branch?  If so, then I'll remove it.
04:19 kid51 ** I don't have libjit installed on either box, so I can only report that libjit_framebuilder does no harm in libjit's absence
04:19 kid51 * Testing:
04:19 kid51 ** It seems that each week we are merging in a branch (or two) that touches a large number of source code files.  We need to test these more thoroughly, or, more precisely, in more environments.
04:19 kid51 ** Specifically, we seem to get a lot of failures on Linux/amd64 that we don't get on Linux/i386.
04:19 kid51 ** And our Smolder reports on Win32 (mostly from Fran�ois, I think) are showing too many failures this close to release.
04:19 kid51 ** Have all issues from pcc_reapply merge been settled?  We still have TT 1132 outstanding
04:19 kid51 * Plan:  mainly continue to work on configtests
04:19 kid51 * Blocker:  Family issues likely to escalate in coming weeks.
04:19 kid51 EOR
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12:01 kid51 libjit_framebuilder branch:  Have spotted one codingstd error.  Am in process of testing correction.  Otherwise, passes 'make fulltest' on Linux/i386 and Darwin/PPC.
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16:49 plobsing What I've Done:
16:49 plobsing * merge pcc_reapply functionality into libjit framebuilder
16:49 plobsing * new branch, libjit_framebuilder supercedes auto_libjit branch
16:49 plobsing * tracked down the bug in libjit framebuilder on i386 that chromatic found
16:50 plobsing * bug is in libjit
16:50 plobsing * workaround in place
16:50 plobsing * working on a patch to libjit
16:50 plobsing * tried to make a libffi framebuilder
16:50 plobsing * framebuilder/nci current implementation makes it difficult
16:50 plobsing * talked to japhb about weaknesses in NCI system
16:50 plobsing * details of problems, proposed fixes on the wiki @ NCITasklist
16:50 plobsing * thought about lorito
16:50 plobsing * came up with some ideas, a rough plan for a prototype
16:50 plobsing What I Plan To Do (short term):
16:50 plobsing * help with libjit_framebuilder merge (my top priority)
16:50 plobsing * re-work framebuilder/nci system to give framebuilder implentations more autonomy
16:50 plobsing * take management out of src/nci.c
16:50 plobsing * implement a libffi framebuilder
16:50 plobsing What I Plan To Do (longer term):
16:50 plobsing * implement NCITasklist proposals (in branch(es))
16:50 plobsing * time frame: some changes will likely require a deprecation cycle
16:51 plobsing * implement a prototype of what I think lorito should look like
16:51 plobsing * mostly interested in backends
16:51 plobsing * planned backends: llvm, libjit, and of course C
16:51 plobsing EOR
16:55 japhb DONE:
16:55 japhb * Finally starting to feel better, yay!
16:55 japhb * Talked at length with Plobsing++ re: current NCI problems
16:55 japhb * Brain dumped to https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NCITasklist
16:55 japhb WIP:
16:55 japhb * Converting Plumage to make use of new NQP-rx features
16:55 japhb * Pushing the envelope of what NQP-rx has
16:55 japhb * Exchanging feature requests with pmichaud++ via http://wiki.github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/plumage-requests
16:55 japhb * Moving Glue.pir functionality to Util.nqp where possible
16:55 japhb * Further expanding Util.nqp to cover more common functionality
16:55 japhb * Cleaning up and expanding Plumage's test suite
16:55 japhb NEXT UP:
16:55 japhb * More of everything in WIP section
16:55 japhb BLOCKERS:
16:55 japhb * Several local Plumage branches blocked waiting for various NQP-rx features
16:55 japhb * Will only rarely be able to make #ps meetings in person for next few months due to time change causing scheduling conflict
16:55 japhb EOR
17:05 darbelo Behind: * Not much. Life got in the way. * Removed a VTABLE. chromatic reported a 1% performance improvement. * Helped plobsing get his frame builder branch into the repo.
17:05 darbelo Ahead: * Not much. * Might kill other under-used VTABLEs if the gains are worth it. * Investigate refactoring IMAGE_IO into a PMC.
17:05 darbelo Standing in the way: * Life.
17:05 darbelo .end
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17:53 kj Report: migrated a couple of tickets from RT to Trac. End of report.
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17:55 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
17:55 whiteknight (pla) Add a few random features and more tests
17:55 whiteknight (pla) fix installation, which apparently got broken at some point
17:55 whiteknight (matrixy) pla_integration branch builds and runs tests (but doesn't pass all of them). Work to do
17:56 whiteknight (parrot) talking about JIT, GC, etc. Talk is cheap.
17:56 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
17:56 whiteknight (pla) Might work on a CharMatrix2D PMC type to implement Matrixy's idiosyncratic string handling
17:56 whiteknight (matrixy) Continuing integration work, trying to get the branch working and merged
17:56 whiteknight (parrot) some optimization avenues I want to look into. Will try to support bacek++ and chromatic++ on the CallSignature stuff
17:56 whiteknight (parrot) testing plobsing++'s branch libjit_framebuilder. Hopeing to get that greenlighted for merge (or, hoping to spark good discussion)
17:56 whiteknight (parrot) need to put some of the JIT plans on the wiki now, so we can start ironing them out
17:56 whiteknight (all) Lots of misc blogging to catch up on
17:56 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON:
17:56 whiteknight * Not enough time
17:56 whiteknight EOR
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17:58 barney WHAT I DID:
17:58 barney Started on NEWS for 1.8.0
17:58 barney EOR
18:02 dukeleto What I did:
18:02 dukeleto * Reviewed and applied some patches from bubaflub++
18:02 dukeleto * Worked with kiwichris on the RTEMS port
18:02 dukeleto * Did research into real-time GC algorithms for the RTEMS port.
18:02 dukeleto * Started a new HLL, Kea (Factor on Parrot) : http://github.com/leto/kea, which will be implemented in NQP-rx and PIR
18:02 dukeleto * Keeping up with Plumage and nqp-rx development
18:02 dukeleto What I will do:
18:02 dukeleto * Review and apply more patches from bubaflub++
18:02 dukeleto Blocking on:
18:02 dukeleto * Time to do stuff.
18:02 dukeleto I will not be back for ~1 to ~1.5 hrs from now.
18:04 NotFound What I did:
18:04 NotFound * Lots of work on Winxed.
18:04 NotFound * Fixed NCI PCC problem with 'p' type, I have a question about that.
18:04 NotFound * TODO'ed the NCI test that creates nci_test linkage problems.
18:04 NotFound * Fixed problem in parrot-mysql module following Tene++ patch.
18:04 NotFound What I will do:
18:04 NotFound * No fixed plan.
18:04 NotFound q2q
18:04 NotFound EOR
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18:08 fperrad # What I did this week :
18:08 fperrad * library Configure.pir : a genfile()
18:08 fperrad + with variable interpolation
18:08 fperrad + slash/backslash substitution (for Windows)
18:08 fperrad + conditioned line #IF/UNLESS/ELSIF/ELSE
18:08 fperrad + with expression evaluation || OR && AND ! NOT (expr) != ==
18:08 fperrad * library distutils.pir (Python like) :
18:08 fperrad allows build/test/install/clean
18:08 fperrad from a setup.pir script
18:08 fperrad without Makefile and remove a lot of dependencies
18:08 fperrad handles : dynops, dynpmc, PGE, TGE, NQP, PBC_TO_EXE, ...
18:08 fperrad * experiments these libraries with : Lua, Markdown, MT19937, Wmlscript, XML
18:08 fperrad * converts tools/dev/mk_language_shell.pl with these libraries
18:09 fperrad # What I want to do :
18:09 fperrad * fix Plumage on Windows
18:09 fperrad .eor
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18:21 allison Last week:
18:21 allison - Had some great process conversations this week.
18:21 allison - Working my way through a list of smallish tasks. Converted my private TODO text file into a public wiki page AllisonTasklist, to help avoid blockers (people can pick up or help with tasks, or vote for highest priorities).
18:21 allison - Closed RT tickets.
18:21 allison Next week:
18:21 allison - Knock a few more tasks off the list.
18:21 allison Blocking on:
18:21 allison - Time.
18:21 allison EOR
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18:27 Util # Done:
18:27 Util * Reviewed patches from bubaflub++ ; TT#1217, TT#1218.
18:27 Util = High quality Perl->PIR refactoring, but invalid; false negatives unless separate instances are used.
18:27 Util # Plan for this week:
18:27 Util * Finish the two tickets; possibly working with author to re-write.
18:27 Util * Play catch-up on tickets.
18:27 Util # Blockers:
18:27 Util * Tuit shortage
18:27 Util * Tropical Storm Ida
18:27 Util .end
18:29 mikehh Just testing and fixing codetest failures etc.
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18:31 chromatic Hello, everyone.
18:31 whiteknight howdy
18:31 allison hi
18:31 cotto_work hi
18:31 barney hi
18:32 pmichaud hello
18:32 Util hi
18:32 * whiteknight actually has to disappear. Will backlog
18:33 chromatic Let's review last week.  How did we do on our high level goals?
18:33 mikehh hi
18:34 allison was our high-level goal closing RT tickets?
18:34 * allison missed last week, so had to ask about priorities after
18:34 dukeleto back!
18:35 chromatic As far as I can tell, yes.
18:35 mikehh a lot of tickets were closed
18:36 chromatic Okay, let's pick goals for this week.
18:36 chromatic We missed our hackathon on Saturday; how about a new one this Saturday>
18:36 mikehh fixing remaining failing tests before release
18:36 allison what's the focus of the hackathon?
18:36 dukeleto i would like to pick a directory in t/ and help people translate tests to PIR
18:36 allison HLL issues?
18:36 chromatic My suggestion: opcode testing.
18:36 dukeleto warnings.t must be fixed
18:36 dukeleto t/src/warnings.t, that is
18:37 chromatic bacek's PMC header moving branch fixes it.
18:37 mikehh get the fix in
18:38 mikehh I am having a couple of testr failures
18:38 chromatic How about a testing hackathon then?
18:38 dukeleto chromatic: t/op/, then ?
18:38 dukeleto chromatic++ # testing hackathon
18:38 chromatic https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/query?status=assigned&status=new&status=reopened&group=status&milestone=1.8
18:39 * dukeleto will volunteer to herd cats in the right direction for tests
18:39 mikehh a few skipped tests now pass for me but not sure on other platforms eg win32, darwin
18:40 allison testing hackathon would be a good fit for the 1.8 milestone tasks
18:40 chromatic Let's make it so then.
18:40 NotFound Sorry, got distracted. Hola.
18:40 chromatic In other news of focus, did everyone see Patrick's message to the list last week about what Rakudo needs?
18:41 darbelo Some of his needs need deprecations. IIRC.
18:42 cotto_work q1q
18:42 chromatic They do, but I think we can still break them down into concrete design and implementation tasks.
18:44 mikehh q1q
18:44 darbelo Separating 'actionable now' from 'deprecation needed' items should help people looking for tasks.
18:45 cotto_work Is there a wiki page for pmichaud's list?
18:45 chromatic More than that, I suspect if we made a wiki page for "How do we improve speed?", we could brainstorm into concrete tasks.
18:45 chromatic There's no wiki page yet; do we have a volunteer to make one?
18:46 cotto_work I will if I can find his message.  Some posts to parrot-dev don't get to my work account.
18:46 * dukeleto is excited about a testing hackathon
18:46 cotto_work q1q (2 total)
18:46 darbelo q1q
18:47 pmichaud http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/parrot-dev/2009-November/003223.html
18:47 chromatic Thanks, pmichaud.
18:47 chromatic Let's move on to questions then.  cotto_work?
18:48 pmichaud the most beneficial ones at this point would be #1, #3, #5, and #4  (in that order)
18:48 pmichaud afaict, none of those would absolutely need deprecations
18:49 cotto_work I was going to remove all the bitwise VTABLE functions, but the bitwise ops depend on them.  Are there any objections to deprecating them now so the bitwise ops and VTABLE functions can go away post 2.0?
18:49 chromatic How do users perform bitwise operations without the ops?
18:49 darbelo We could add methods.
18:50 allison darbelo: bitwise operations have to be fast
18:50 allison but, do they have to be overloadable?
18:50 cotto_work Are they expected to be common?
18:50 NotFound Methods to do bit operations pn Integer? And you want speed? =:o
18:50 allison could be, get_integer, perform bitwise operation
18:51 allison if a bitwise operation always has the same behavior
18:51 cotto_work If they're needed, there's always dynops
18:53 darbelo NotFound: People who want speed should avoid Integer anyway.
18:53 allison cotto: sounds good, my vote's on 1) deprecate bitwise ops and vtable functions, 2) implement bitwise dynops that directly implement the most common bitwise behavior
18:53 NotFound darbelo: or maybe avoid parrot.
18:53 cotto_work Great.  I'll put that in a tt and add a deprecation notice.
18:54 cotto_work next q: Can the Parrot VM Workshop Google group be shut down?  It's just spam at this point.
18:54 allison cotto: yes, but I don't know who owns that
18:54 cotto_work For some reason, I thought you did.
18:56 mikehh pmichaud?
18:56 allison I did create several of our google groups, but not that one. IIRC, ownership is mentioned somewhere in the regular pages for a Google group, will dig for it.
18:56 chromatic darbelo, question?
18:57 darbelo Can we deprecate the image_io structure and refactor it into a PMC?
18:57 pmichaud (when doing the bitwise ops, please let's not have a repeat of what happened with converting Random PMC into a dynop)
18:57 allison pmichaud: for reference, what happened with the Random PMC?
18:58 pmichaud the random pmc was removed before the replacement dynops were available
18:58 pmichaud (in a release)
18:58 mikehh broke rakudo
18:58 allison pmichaud: ah, yes, let's avoid that
18:58 NotFound We must add to our deprecation guidelines: "Provide an alternative *before*"
18:58 allison preferably, have the dynops in place before 2.0
18:58 allison NotFound: not necessarily, some things are deprecated to be removed, not replaced
18:59 dukeleto um, it was replaced like the same day
18:59 pmichaud dukeleto: yes, but there was no release where both were available.
18:59 NotFound allison: in that case the alternative is have other way of doing the thing,
18:59 dukeleto i had the replacement random pmc ready, there were build issues that slightly delayed it working
18:59 pmichaud and since parrot currently expects hlls to target releases, that is a problem.
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18:59 dukeleto pmichaud: yes, you are correct
19:00 allison NotFound: I meant cases where we're really removing a feature entirely. the "don't do this anymore" case (which is semi-rare, but does happen)
19:00 allison NotFound: but agreed in the general case
19:00 NotFound allison: there always can be exception, but must be exceptional.
19:01 chromatic Now back to darbelo's question.
19:02 chromatic What's your motivation for this, darbelo?  Correctness?  Ease of use?
19:03 darbelo It would help clean up the PMC freeze/thaw process. Also that claims to be "a stand in for a pmc to be written later"
19:03 darbelo Since about 2003 IIRC
19:03 cotto_work good punchline
19:03 whiteknight +1 from me. Anything we can do to clean up and standardize the freeze/thaw process would be great
19:03 whiteknight and document it
19:03 chromatic Agreed.
19:03 cotto_work +1
19:03 chromatic Can you figure out how the PMC interface would look?
19:04 dukeleto +1 for darbelo doing stuff
19:04 whiteknight let's draft it up on the wiki
19:04 darbelo The struct has a 'fake' vtable it uses to dispatch to the functions in pmc_freeze.c
19:05 darbelo I'd aim to provide the same interface or something reasonably close.
19:05 chromatic Excellent.
19:05 chromatic mikehh, question?
19:06 mikehh was any decision made on pmichaud's new nqp stuff - as in moving into core or whatever?
19:07 mikehh I seem to remember some earlier discussion regards nqp and lorito
19:07 pmichaud ah, that's my fault.
19:07 pmichaud yes, a decision was made.
19:07 allison mikehh: yes, ship a copy in core, main repo separate
19:07 pmichaud the nqp stuff will go into ext/
19:07 pmichaud I have a proposal I need to write up for that, but I can summarize here
19:07 pmichaud I'd like for nqp-rx to go in as ext/nqp/
19:08 pmichaud I would like for it to build a 'parrot-nqp' binary.
19:08 pmichaud I would like for the existing 'parrot_nqp' binary to simply go away.
19:08 pmichaud The old NQP library will still be available as NQP.pbc, same as in the 1.4.0 release
19:08 pmichaud (only the 1.7 release had the parrot_nqp binary, so it can disappear w/o needing deprecation)
19:09 pmichaud if this needs a proposal on the wiki or mailing list, I can do that.
19:09 allison pmichaud: would it be useful to you if we go ahead and add build/bin and build/lib, for nqp to build into?
19:10 allison pmichaud: these would be the directories in the build directory that parallel the install directories
19:10 pmichaud allison: it might.  But truly, parrot's build of NQP is simply compiling four .pir files into .pbc, and then running pbc_to_exe on one of the .pbc
19:10 whiteknight q1q
19:11 pmichaud so NQP doesn't need too much of a staging area.  If you want me to have the binary and .pbc's go into those directories, that can be done.
19:11 pmichaud however, for testing I think the .pbc's would still need to go into runtime/parrot/library  in order to run nqp-rx's test suite
19:11 allison pmichaud: easy enough, and we can move the build results when we move everything else (either way is workable)
19:11 pmichaud my preference would be to just get it working within the existing build framework and let someone else take care of setting up the new framework
19:12 pmichaud mikehh++  # thanks for remembering to ask about nqp
19:12 allison sounds good
19:12 pmichaud okay, I'll do that in the next day or so
19:12 pmichaud thanks
19:13 chromatic NotFound, question?
19:14 NotFound 'p' in NCI. I've fixed it to convert PMCNULL to NULL in argument, and return NULL for PMCNULL. I wan't to know if this is the intenede usage, and put it clearly in the pdd.
19:15 NotFound It worked that way before PCC refactor, BTW
19:16 allison for now the intended behavior for NCI is "exactly duplicate the old behavior"
19:16 NotFound Eh.., is retutning PMCNULL for NULL, of course.
19:16 allison we may change it later, but that'll be an RFC, and something to talk about around the group
19:17 NotFound allison: I think we can't left that undocumented, that makes NCI almost useless.
19:18 allison the old behavior makes NCI almost useless?
19:19 allison or the new behavior does?
19:19 allison or not documenting the old behavior does?
19:19 NotFound Not documenting does.
19:19 allison then let's document it
19:19 NotFound That's what I asked.
19:19 allison ticket?
19:20 allison would you like to take a stab at phrasing for the PDD?
19:20 NotFound No ticket, I realized the problem just yesterday.
19:20 cotto_work q1q
19:21 allison okay, cool, let's get a ticket and I'll review a patch
19:21 allison (if I don't see the patch, poke me)
19:21 NotFound After locating why parrot-mysql was failing, and was failing because changed a behavior that was not documented and not tested.
19:21 allison ah, mention the need for tests in the ticket too
19:21 chromatic NotFound, second question?
19:22 NotFound allison: I've already do the fixed and the test, the only remaining task is document.
19:22 NotFound Forget the second, I'll better write a proposal.
19:22 allison NotFound: excellent!
19:23 NotFound EOQ
19:25 chromatic whiteknight, question?
19:26 whiteknight on the wiki we had two tenative hackathons listed: PIRC (oct 24th) and JIT (Nov 21)
19:26 whiteknight the PIRC one obviously has since passed. Do we still want to focus on these two issues?
19:26 whiteknight and if so, when?
19:28 whiteknight JIT stuff may be coming to a head this month, so I suggest we keep that on the near-term schedule
19:28 chromatic Thoughts?
19:29 whiteknight WARNOCKED
19:29 whiteknight EOQ
19:30 chromatic cotto_work, question?
19:30 NotFound Somenone is working on pirc?
19:30 cotto_work There's an ambiguous deprecation item that mentions reviewing and cleaning the list of VTABLE functions.  Can we tighten that or just eliminate the item?
19:30 cotto_work https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/866
19:30 chromatic Let's tighten it.
19:31 cotto_work That tt lists some *possible* deprecations.
19:32 cotto_work Actually, I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to just lock down what's there and start a new TT for post-2.0 VTABLE deprecations.
19:32 chromatic Yes, let's get specific.
19:32 mikehh NotFound: kj/kjs
19:33 cotto_work also, is it fine to add a tt deprecating both the bitwise ops and VTABLE functions or should that be two tickets?
19:34 allison cotto: sounds combinable
19:34 chromatic Migrating ops to dynops seems like one ticket, removing VTABLE functions sounds like another.
19:35 allison or at least link the two tickets
19:36 cotto_work single ticket submitted
19:37 cotto_work eoq
19:37 chromatic Other questions?
19:37 darbelo What's the procedure to nominate someone for a commit bit?
19:38 chromatic 1) have that someone submit a CLA
19:38 chromatic 2) have other people say "Wow, that person should get a commit bit!"
19:38 chromatic 3) nominate in #ps
19:38 chromatic 4) mentor
19:38 pmichaud see docs/submissions.pod
19:38 pmichaud "Getting Commit Privileges"
19:40 chromatic Other questions?
19:42 chromatic Okay, let's call it a week.
19:42 chromatic Gentle reminder: RakudoTaskList on the wiki.
19:42 chromatic RakudoTasklist, that is.
19:44 cotto_work bye
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