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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 02:19 | TimToady joined #parrotsketch | |
| 09:27 | Tene joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:24 | mikehh joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:28 | japhb | DONE: |
| 17:28 | * Hacking docs! Reviews requested: http://gitorious.org/parrot-pl[…]ster/docs/hacking , start with the contributing.pod doc. | |
| 17:28 | * More metadata updates from fperrad++ | |
| 17:28 | * Add accessor methods to Plumage::Project | |
| 17:28 | * Add project-dir command to plumage | |
| 17:28 | * Move responsibility for determining build sequence to Plumage::Project | |
| 17:28 | * Move responsibility for mkpath($build_root) to Plumage::Project's fetch action | |
| 17:29 | * Excise %STAGES and supporting code from plumage.nqp | |
| 17:29 | * Improve API of perform_actions{,_on_projects} | |
| 17:29 | * Add stub of update stage to Plumage::Project, reusing (and falling back to) fetch | |
| 17:29 | * Make harness exit(1) after failing test runs | |
| 17:29 | * Fix broken test | |
| 17:29 | * Tell plumage command_ subs what command invoked them; | |
| 17:29 | * Collapse all plumage project action commands into one sub | |
| 17:29 | NEXT UP: | |
| 17:29 | * More new project actions and new plumage commands | |
| 17:29 | BLOCKERS: | |
| 17:29 | * NQP-rx repo prep by pmichaud so that I can move Glue and Util into NQP-rx | |
| 17:29 | EOR | |
| 17:31 | Tene | Minor updates to rakudo, working on exceptions and failures. |
| 17:31 | EOR | |
| 17:41 | NotFound joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:42 | NotFound left #parrotsketch | |
| 17:43 | mikehh | What I did since my last report: |
| 17:43 | NotFound joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:43 | mikehh | * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++, with and without --optimize |
| 17:43 | * fixing codetest and manifest_tests failures | |
| 17:43 | * implement some patches from bubaflub++ and kurahapo++ | |
| 17:43 | with some modifications converting tests to pir | |
| 17:43 | * fixing some tests | |
| 17:43 | What I intend to do in the next week: | |
| 17:43 | * testing and fixing | |
| 17:43 | * investigate gc | |
| 17:43 | .eor | |
| 17:46 | bubaflub joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:47 | particle joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:53 | allison joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:55 | NotFound | What I did (last two weeks): |
| 17:55 | - parrot | |
| 17:55 | * Just some testing. | |
| 17:55 | - Winxed | |
| 17:55 | * Renamed the parser example to stage 1 compiler. | |
| 17:55 | * Modified harness to use it with both stages. | |
| 17:55 | kj joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:55 | NotFound | * Improved the stage 1 compiler. |
| 17:55 | * Some fixes in stage 0. | |
| 17:55 | What I will do: | |
| 17:55 | * More work in Winxed stage 1 | |
| 17:55 | EOR | |
| 17:56 | kj | report for kjs: * nothing to report due to moving apt., deadlines, another move to another apt. and yet more deadlines. kjs is still lurking, though. EOR |
| 17:57 | allison | - I've been absorbed by course work again this week. Classes end on Friday for a month, so I'll have more time available. |
| 17:57 | EOR | |
| 17:57 | mikehh joined #parrotsketch | |
| 17:58 | plobsing joined #parrotsketch | |
| 18:03 | kj left #parrotsketch | |
| 18:04 | dukeleto | EIRLBUSYNOREPORT |
| 18:05 | bubaflub | Done |
| 18:05 | * 10 Perl+PIR tests converted to pure PIR | |
| 18:05 | * Broke make coretest :-( | |
| 18:05 | This week | |
| 18:05 | * Fix coretest! | |
| 18:05 | * More tests converted to PIR | |
| 18:05 | EOR | |
| 18:05 | q1q | |
| 18:06 | cotto_w0rk | #done: |
| 18:06 | * (re)factored the profiling runcore | |
| 18:06 | * output is configurable and extensible, options atm are pprof and none (binary and possibly callgrind are planned) | |
| 18:06 | * env var PARROT_PROFILING_OUTPUT now determines the output type, PARROT_PROFILING_FILENAME determines the filename | |
| 18:06 | * updated pprof2cg.pl for some minor pprof format changes | |
| 18:06 | * applied some patches from JimmyZ, closed associated tickets | |
| 18:06 | #planned: | |
| 18:06 | * more profiling work, figuring out testing | |
| 18:06 | * take care of more patches/tickets from JimmyZ | |
| 18:06 | * work on whatever the priority this week is | |
| 18:06 | #blocking: | |
| 18:06 | * me | |
| 18:06 | .eor | |
| 18:06 | q1q | |
| 18:07 | plobsing | What I Did: |
| 18:07 | - tried to get libjit_framebuilder working with a more recent parrot | |
| 18:07 | - freeze/thaw Eval issues | |
| 18:07 | - read up on freeze/thaw | |
| 18:07 | - came up with a plan to clean up and fix issues with freeze/thaw Eval (TT #1359 ) | |
| 18:07 | - started implementing TT #1359 | |
| 18:07 | What I Plan: | |
| 18:07 | - finish implementation, submit patches | |
| 18:07 | - get libjit_framebuilder working on a recent parrot | |
| 18:07 | - steal parts from libjit_framebuilder for other projects (libffi for example) | |
| 18:07 | EOR | |
| 18:21 | Util | # Done: |
| 18:21 | * Read/reading the Git Parable (how a Git-like system could be built from first principles), which is helping with my SVN biases. Highly recommended! | |
| 18:21 | = http://tom.preston-werner.com/[…]-git-parable.html | |
| 18:21 | # Plan for this week: | |
| 18:21 | * Update TT#1217 , TT#1218 ; turn back over to bubaflub++ for re-write | |
| 18:21 | * Write up ideas for new PIR todo() API in TT#1302 . | |
| 18:21 | # Blockers: | |
| 18:21 | * None | |
| 18:21 | .end | |
| 18:25 | barney joined #parrotsketch | |
| 18:27 | chromatic joined #parrotsketch | |
| 18:29 | chromatic | Fixed some bugs. |
| 18:29 | Profiled and optimized. | |
| 18:29 | simcop2387_ joined #parrotsketch | |
| 18:29 | chromatic | Figured out how to make :immediate work with PBC; hopefully this will help NQP-rx and PCT with performance. |
| 18:32 | allison | hi |
| 18:32 | NotFound | hola |
| 18:33 | chromatic | Hello, everyone. |
| 18:33 | Util | hello |
| 18:33 | bubaflub | hello. |
| 18:33 | moritz joined #parrotsketch | |
| 18:33 | cotto_w0rk | hi |
| 18:33 | chromatic | Let's review last week's priorities. |
| 18:33 | mikehh | hello |
| 18:34 | chromatic | Did anyone work on vtable overrides? |
| 18:34 | cotto_w0rk | confusion reigned |
| 18:34 | davidfetter joined #parrotsketch | |
| 18:34 | whiteknight joined #parrotsketch | |
| 18:34 | davidfetter left #parrotsketch | |
| 18:34 | chromatic | How so? |
| 18:34 | cotto_w0rk | I think that the tasks on that page needed to be spelled out more explicitly. |
| 18:35 | istr dukeleto tried and got frustrated | |
| 18:36 | chromatic | A fair point, but I have a concern that we haven't met any of our weekly priorities in quite a while. |
| 18:36 | allison | that could be a sign that we're not setting the right priorities |
| 18:37 | that is, it seems there has been good progress in speeding parrot up | |
| 18:38 | cotto_w0rk | q1q (total 2) |
| 18:38 | chromatic | If we can't identify a priority, describe it in sufficient detail that any of several people could do it, and have one or more of those people do it, we'll block on that priority for the one person who described it. |
| 18:39 | That hurt us on the PCC refactor until we solved it with some applied heroics. | |
| 18:39 | allison | does the vtable override priority need a better description? |
| 18:40 | chromatic | Perhaps; this is the first I heard about anyone poking at it. |
| 18:41 | allison | I missed last week, so fill me in: why was it selected as the priority? |
| 18:41 | chromatic | It was 1) documented 2) achievable in a week 3) a performance improvement 4) a cleanliness improvement |
| 18:43 | allison | good reasons |
| 18:44 | chromatic | Other thoughts? |
| 18:45 | allison | volunteer time |
| 18:45 | (it's limited) | |
| 18:46 | chromatic | Thoughts from other people? |
| 18:47 | Util | Tasks, when made a priority, need a clear "next action" defined; this is a GTD/project management concept. |
| 18:47 | Taking the time to do this up-front lowers the barrier to starting on the task. | |
| 18:48 | chromatic | Is that what we're missing? |
| 18:48 | Util | that is just a thought. |
| 18:49 | allison | breaking tasks down to make them more approachable is good |
| 18:49 | chromatic | I'm happy to do that, but it seems like there's little buyin from other developers on the priorities. |
| 18:50 | allison | how about we put this on the agenda for Sunday? |
| 18:50 | Util | next-action is not even a full breakdown; just "what is the first bite we can tear off". |
| 18:50 | allison | review if the weekly priorities have helped and if we want to keep them |
| 18:50 | chromatic | Okay, that's a good agenda item. |
| 18:51 | mikehh | I thgink it would work better if we had clearly defined tasks - at least for me |
| 18:51 | bubaflub | and i don't mind having people say "hey, you, do this..." |
| 18:51 | and if it's clearly defined, all the better | |
| 18:51 | Util | When a priority is set, we get nods, but not a sense of who expects to devote time to it, nor how much time. |
| 18:51 | chromatic | I will improve the task definitions on that page. |
| 18:52 | Other priorities for this week? | |
| 18:52 | allison | define the roadmap for next year |
| 18:52 | (that's the priority) | |
| 18:53 | chromatic | Questions. |
| 18:53 | cotto_work? | |
| 18:53 | cotto_w0rk | What's keeping plobsing from getting a commit bit? |
| 18:54 | chromatic | +1 to giving him a bit |
| 18:54 | +1 to Gerd too, if he doesn't already have one. | |
| 18:54 | allison | do we have CLAs? |
| 18:55 | I see one for Gerd | |
| 18:55 | I don't know plobsing's real name | |
| 18:55 | * particle | received CLAs from whiteknight and cotto yesterday |
| 18:55 | particle | peter lobsinger iirc |
| 18:55 | allison | that sounds familiar... |
| 18:56 | NotFound | +1 |
| 18:56 | chromatic | Any concerns about either? |
| 18:56 | allison | yes, we have a CLA for plobsing too |
| 18:56 | * dukeleto | is back |
| 18:56 | allison | do we have mentors for them? |
| 18:56 | dukeleto | i am willing to mentor |
| 18:57 | chromatic | Okay, who can flip their commit bits? |
| 18:57 | dukeleto | chromatic: you? |
| 18:57 | chromatic: i don't know that i can flip a bit | |
| 18:57 | whiteknight | I'll mentor |
| 18:58 | (with what little time I have) | |
| 18:58 | co-mentor | |
| 18:58 | particle | docs/project/metacommitters_guide.pod |
| 18:58 | Tene | The time I've done the most work for Parrot was when I was listed as "Tene will implement this" on the roadmap, and I was asked about it specifically, by name, at #ps meetings. |
| 18:58 | That's correlation, not causation, but maybe relevant. | |
| 18:59 | allison | that's helpful data |
| 19:00 | chromatic | Other questions? |
| 19:00 | bubaflub | yep. did ya'll receive my CLA? |
| 19:00 | dukeleto | what is this weeks priority? |
| 19:00 | cotto_w0rk | I forgot my other question. |
| 19:01 | dukeleto | Also, do people want me to continue sending benchmarks to parrot-dev? Are they useful? |
| 19:01 | allison | dukeleto: the roadmap for next year, and documentation |
| 19:01 | whiteknight | I find the benchmarks useful |
| 19:01 | chromatic | The priorities are vtable overrides, documentation, and figuring out the roadmap for 2010. |
| 19:01 | I find the benchmarks useful too, but I still would like to see Callgrind numbers more than times. | |
| 19:01 | Util | q1q |
| 19:02 | dukeleto | chromatic: i will get you valgrind output for the array_access.pir slowdown |
| 19:02 | allison | do we have a specific time for Sunday? |
| 19:02 | dukeleto | what is happening sunday? |
| 19:03 | allison | maybe a 3 hour block? |
| 19:03 | chromatic | Three hours sounds useful. |
| 19:04 | allison | dukeleto: see Will's message to the list about roadmap review workshops |
| 19:05 | https://spreadsheets.google.co[…]ZDZ5cTdtYXc&hl=en | |
| 19:05 | mikehh joined #parrotsketch | |
| 19:06 | allison | bubaflub: drop me an email and I'll check on it |
| 19:06 | * japhb | is bak |
| 19:06 | bubaflub | allison: thanks. |
| 19:07 | dukeleto | it would be nice if our meeting was later in the day so that bacek could join in |
| 19:07 | the sunday meeting, i mean | |
| 19:08 | allison | the same time as parrot sketch would be easy to remember, but is probably too early |
| 19:08 | how about 2 hours later? | |
| 19:08 | cotto_w0rk | That'll be Monday morning for him, won't it? |
| 19:09 | allison | that's about as late as I can go for a 3 hour meeting |
| 19:09 | where is bacek? | |
| 19:09 | Tene | q1q |
| 19:10 | cotto_w0rk | allison, He's in eastern Australia |
| 19:10 | allison | so, wouldn't he need earlier in the day? |
| 19:11 | sounds like we'd better take this to the list | |
| 19:11 | chromatic | Let's do that. |
| 19:11 | Util, you had a question? | |
| 19:11 | mikehh joined #parrotsketch | |
| 19:11 | Util | Some trig tests on N registers in t/op/inf_nan.t are todo'ed, stating: "cot/coth/acot not implemented for real numbers". |
| 19:12 | This statement asserts that these trig ops are planned for, just not implemented yet. Is this assertion correct? | |
| 19:12 | (perhaps "implies" is a better word than "asserts" in this audience) | |
| 19:13 | allison | it was correct, but we're now trying to move advanced math ops to dynops |
| 19:13 | so, if we add them, they should be added as dynops | |
| 19:14 | Util | Does IMCC work with parsing dynops, or must we wait for PIRC? |
| 19:14 | chromatic | If you load the dynops, it works fine. |
| 19:14 | Util | KTHX. EOQ |
| 19:14 | dukeleto | Util: i planned to implement those as dynops and haven't gotten around to it |
| 19:15 | bubaflub | dukeleto: after a bit of hand holding, i can probably help ya out |
| 19:15 | dukeleto | bubaflub: sounds good! |
| 19:15 | chromatic | Tene, question? |
| 19:15 | dukeleto | q1q |
| 19:16 | treed joined #parrotsketch | |
| 19:17 | Tene | chromatic: treed was voicing some significant concerns about his issues as a HLL dev being ignored. |
| 19:18 | dukeleto | Tene: where were these concerns raised? |
| 19:18 | Tene | Where should he voice those concerns to get them noticed as pain for an HLL dev? |
| 19:18 | treed | On an unrelated IRC channel. |
| 19:18 | dukeleto | Tene: parrot-dev and parrot-users ? |
| 19:18 | Tene | dukeleto: That's what this question is about. |
| 19:18 | treed | I can try to make a list and do something about it. |
| 19:18 | Post it to both of those? | |
| 19:19 | dukeleto | treed: if you are having issues using Parrot because there are bugs, then it is best to cc parrot-dev and parrot-users |
| 19:19 | allison | parrot users is for user questions |
| 19:19 | treed | k |
| 19:19 | dukeleto | treed: if you find out that the discussion only belongs on one of the lists, then you can specialize |
| 19:19 | treed | I thought parrot users was for end users though? |
| 19:19 | Not HLL devs? | |
| 19:19 | allison | developer needs should go to parrot-dev |
| 19:19 | dukeleto | allison: yes, do HLL devs count as users? |
| 19:19 | allison | well, HLL devs are users |
| 19:20 | dukeleto | allison: i consider HLL devs "users" |
| 19:20 | Tene | treed: the "end users" of parrot are HLL devs. |
| 19:20 | treed | Users of what? |
| 19:20 | Tene: I mean end users of parrot-based products. | |
| 19:20 | allison | the way to think about it is parrot-users is for "helpdesk" questions |
| 19:20 | parrot-dev is for development tasks | |
| 19:20 | dukeleto | allison: i agree. so i guess just send it to parrot-users first |
| 19:21 | treed: if it ends up being a parrot bug, then cc parrot-dev | |
| 19:21 | allison: does that sounds reasonable? | |
| 19:21 | allison | good start |
| 19:22 | treed: if it's a list of bugs you need us to bump up in priority, then parrot-dev | |
| 19:22 | chromatic | dukeleto, question? |
| 19:22 | treed | Okay, I'll see if I can put together a list. I can only thing of two issues right now. (Maybe a third depending on if it's a bug (which I think is likely) or me being a retard (not unpossible)) |
| 19:23 | dukeleto | chromatic: How slow is too slow? |
| 19:23 | chromatic | In what context? |
| 19:23 | dukeleto | chromatic: i.e. does Parrot have any benchmark guidelines? Are we going to ship 2.0 if we haven't fixed arrays being twice as slow in trunk as 1.8.0 ? |
| 19:24 | chromatic: my quesiton is more general though | |
| 19:24 | chromatic | We don't have any benchmark guidelines yet. |
| 19:24 | dukeleto | chromatic: should/do benchmarks effect our releases or priorites in any formal way? or is it just "oh crap, that is slow, we should look into that" |
| 19:25 | chromatic: i am thinking of writing some benchmark tests | |
| 19:25 | allison | dukeleto: we don't have a hard target of "no release unless we're X fast" |
| 19:26 | dukeleto | allison: not so much as "we want to be X fast" as "we used to be X fast and now we are X/2" |
| 19:26 | allison: just wondering if we need some guidelines | |
| 19:26 | allison | in terms of general goals, they're more relative than absolute. Like, "Pynie is faster than CPython" |
| 19:27 | being faster on, say, a fibonacci benchmark isn't actually terribly helpful | |
| 19:27 | dukeleto | allison: i guess i am trying to put examples/benchmarks to some quantitive use |
| 19:27 | allison | you know what would be useful? getting us back into the alioth debian benchmark shootout |
| 19:28 | I've been meaning to look into what that would take | |
| 19:28 | dukeleto | allison: i am talking about array access being twice as slow. that slows down parsing and *everything* |
| 19:28 | mikehh | bear in mind what pmichaud said about that |
| 19:28 | dukeleto | allison: i am not talking about optimizing useless scripts |
| 19:28 | chromatic | dukeleto, what if we started with some metrics (weekly) and evaluated their utility after a few weeks? |
| 19:28 | allison | dukeleto: right, but we don't have any way of knowing what to test for speed until we find one of those |
| 19:29 | dukeleto | chromatic: that would be great. i just want us to be thinking about how we should act on benchmark info |
| 19:29 | allison: well, i just test everything and only tell parrot-dev the bad news ;) | |
| 19:29 | allison | it's really benchmark regression testing, so we start with problems we see now and add more as we find them |
| 19:30 | dukeleto | allison: yes, i am talking about regression benchmarks, i guess |
| 19:31 | chromatic | Other questions? cotto, did you have another? |
| 19:32 | dukeleto | allison: i can't seem to find out how to add a language to the debian shootout |
| 19:32 | allison | dukeleto: we used to be on there, then dropped off |
| 19:35 | chromatic | Is there anything else? Shall we move the benchmark discussion to #parrot? |
| 19:39 | Sounds like it (or I've netsplit). Thanks, everyone. | |
| 19:39 | moritz left #parrotsketch | |
| 19:40 | cotto_w0rk | cotto_w0rk, nothing more from me |
| 19:40 | dukeleto | ENODISHES |
| 19:41 | bubaflub left #parrotsketch | |
| 19:43 | NotFound left #parrotsketch | |
| 20:02 | plobsing left #parrotsketch | |
| 20:40 | PacoLinux left #parrotsketch | |
| 21:19 | chromatic left #parrotsketch | |
| 22:51 | Whiteknight joined #parrotsketch | |
| 23:13 | mikehh joined #parrotsketch |
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