Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-12-08

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Time Nick Message
02:19 TimToady joined #parrotsketch
09:27 Tene joined #parrotsketch
17:24 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
17:28 japhb DONE:
17:28 japhb * Hacking docs!  Reviews requested: http://gitorious.org/parrot-plumage/pa​rrot-plumage/trees/master/docs/hacking , start with the contributing.pod doc.
17:28 japhb * More metadata updates from fperrad++
17:28 japhb * Add accessor methods to Plumage::Project
17:28 japhb * Add project-dir command to plumage
17:28 japhb * Move responsibility for determining build sequence to Plumage::Project
17:28 japhb * Move responsibility for mkpath($build_root) to Plumage::Project's fetch action
17:29 japhb * Excise %STAGES and supporting code from plumage.nqp
17:29 japhb * Improve API of perform_actions{,_on_projects}
17:29 japhb * Add stub of update stage to Plumage::Project, reusing (and falling back to) fetch
17:29 japhb * Make harness exit(1) after failing test runs
17:29 japhb * Fix broken test
17:29 japhb * Tell plumage command_ subs what command invoked them;
17:29 japhb * Collapse all plumage project action commands into one sub
17:29 japhb NEXT UP:
17:29 japhb * More new project actions and new plumage commands
17:29 japhb BLOCKERS:
17:29 japhb * NQP-rx repo prep by pmichaud so that I can move Glue and Util into NQP-rx
17:29 japhb EOR
17:31 Tene Minor updates to rakudo, working on exceptions and failures.
17:31 Tene EOR
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17:43 mikehh What I did since my last report:
17:43 NotFound joined #parrotsketch
17:43 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++, with and without --optimize
17:43 mikehh * fixing codetest and manifest_tests failures
17:43 mikehh * implement some patches from bubaflub++ and kurahapo++
17:43 mikehh with some modifications converting tests to pir
17:43 mikehh * fixing some tests
17:43 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
17:43 mikehh * testing and fixing
17:43 mikehh * investigate gc
17:43 mikehh .eor
17:46 bubaflub joined #parrotsketch
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17:53 allison joined #parrotsketch
17:55 NotFound What I did (last two weeks):
17:55 NotFound - parrot
17:55 NotFound * Just some testing.
17:55 NotFound - Winxed
17:55 NotFound * Renamed the parser example to stage 1 compiler.
17:55 NotFound * Modified harness to use it with both stages.
17:55 kj joined #parrotsketch
17:55 NotFound * Improved the stage 1 compiler.
17:55 NotFound * Some fixes in stage 0.
17:55 NotFound What I will do:
17:55 NotFound * More work in Winxed stage 1
17:55 NotFound EOR
17:56 kj report for kjs: * nothing to report due to moving apt., deadlines, another move to another apt. and yet more deadlines. kjs is still lurking, though. EOR
17:57 allison - I've been absorbed by course work again this week. Classes end on Friday for a month, so I'll have more time available.
17:57 allison EOR
17:57 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
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18:03 kj left #parrotsketch
18:04 dukeleto EIRLBUSYNOREPORT
18:05 bubaflub Done
18:05 bubaflub * 10 Perl+PIR tests converted to pure PIR
18:05 bubaflub * Broke make coretest :-(
18:05 bubaflub This week
18:05 bubaflub * Fix coretest!
18:05 bubaflub * More tests converted to PIR
18:05 bubaflub EOR
18:05 bubaflub q1q
18:06 cotto_w0rk #done:
18:06 cotto_w0rk * (re)factored the profiling runcore
18:06 cotto_w0rk * output is configurable and extensible, options atm are pprof and none (binary and possibly callgrind are planned)
18:06 cotto_w0rk * env var PARROT_PROFILING_OUTPUT now determines the output type, PARROT_PROFILING_FILENAME determines the filename
18:06 cotto_w0rk * updated pprof2cg.pl for some minor pprof format changes
18:06 cotto_w0rk * applied some patches from JimmyZ, closed associated tickets
18:06 cotto_w0rk #planned:
18:06 cotto_w0rk * more profiling work, figuring out testing
18:06 cotto_w0rk * take care of more patches/tickets from JimmyZ
18:06 cotto_w0rk * work on whatever the priority this week is
18:06 cotto_w0rk #blocking:
18:06 cotto_w0rk * me
18:06 cotto_w0rk .eor
18:06 cotto_w0rk q1q
18:07 plobsing What I Did:
18:07 plobsing - tried to get libjit_framebuilder working with a more recent parrot
18:07 plobsing - freeze/thaw Eval issues
18:07 plobsing - read up on freeze/thaw
18:07 plobsing - came up with a plan to clean up and fix issues with freeze/thaw Eval (TT #1359)
18:07 plobsing - started implementing TT #1359
18:07 plobsing What I Plan:
18:07 plobsing - finish implementation, submit patches
18:07 plobsing - get libjit_framebuilder working on a recent parrot
18:07 plobsing - steal parts from libjit_framebuilder for other projects (libffi for example)
18:07 plobsing EOR
18:21 Util # Done:
18:21 Util * Read/reading the Git Parable (how a Git-like system could be built from first principles), which is helping with my SVN biases. Highly recommended!
18:21 Util = http://tom.preston-werner.com/2​009/05/19/the-git-parable.html
18:21 Util # Plan for this week:
18:21 Util * Update TT#1217 , TT#1218; turn back over to bubaflub++ for re-write
18:21 Util * Write up ideas for new PIR todo() API in TT#1302.
18:21 Util # Blockers:
18:21 Util * None
18:21 Util .end
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18:27 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
18:29 chromatic Fixed some bugs.
18:29 chromatic Profiled and optimized.
18:29 simcop2387_ joined #parrotsketch
18:29 chromatic Figured out how to make :immediate work with PBC; hopefully this will help NQP-rx and PCT with performance.
18:32 allison hi
18:32 NotFound hola
18:33 chromatic Hello, everyone.
18:33 Util hello
18:33 bubaflub hello.
18:33 moritz joined #parrotsketch
18:33 cotto_w0rk hi
18:33 chromatic Let's review last week's priorities.
18:33 mikehh hello
18:34 chromatic Did anyone work on vtable overrides?
18:34 cotto_w0rk confusion reigned
18:34 davidfetter joined #parrotsketch
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18:34 davidfetter left #parrotsketch
18:34 chromatic How so?
18:34 cotto_w0rk I think that the tasks on that page needed to be spelled out more explicitly.
18:35 cotto_w0rk istr dukeleto tried and got frustrated
18:36 chromatic A fair point, but I have a concern that we haven't met any of our weekly priorities in quite a while.
18:36 allison that could be a sign that we're not setting the right priorities
18:37 allison that is, it seems there has been good progress in speeding parrot up
18:38 cotto_w0rk q1q (total 2)
18:38 chromatic If we can't identify a priority, describe it in sufficient detail that any of several people could do it, and have one or more of those people do it, we'll block on that priority for the one person who described it.
18:39 chromatic That hurt us on the PCC refactor until we solved it with some applied heroics.
18:39 allison does the vtable override priority need a better description?
18:40 chromatic Perhaps; this is the first I heard about anyone poking at it.
18:41 allison I missed last week, so fill me in: why was it selected as the priority?
18:41 chromatic It was 1) documented 2) achievable in a week 3) a performance improvement 4) a cleanliness improvement
18:43 allison good reasons
18:44 chromatic Other thoughts?
18:45 allison volunteer time
18:45 allison (it's limited)
18:46 chromatic Thoughts from other people?
18:47 Util Tasks, when made a priority, need a clear "next action" defined; this is a GTD/project management concept.
18:47 Util Taking the time to do this up-front lowers the barrier to starting on the task.
18:48 chromatic Is that what we're missing?
18:48 Util that is just a thought.
18:49 allison breaking tasks down to make them more approachable is good
18:49 chromatic I'm happy to do that, but it seems like there's little buyin from other developers on the priorities.
18:50 allison how about we put this on the agenda for Sunday?
18:50 Util next-action is not even a full breakdown; just "what is the first bite we can tear off".
18:50 allison review if the weekly priorities have helped and if we want to keep them
18:50 chromatic Okay, that's a good agenda item.
18:51 mikehh I thgink it would work better if we had clearly defined tasks - at least for me
18:51 bubaflub and i don't mind having people say "hey, you, do this..."
18:51 bubaflub and if it's clearly defined, all the better
18:51 Util When a priority is set, we get nods, but not a sense of who expects to devote time to it, nor how much time.
18:51 chromatic I will improve the task definitions on that page.
18:52 chromatic Other priorities for this week?
18:52 allison define the roadmap for next year
18:52 allison (that's the priority)
18:53 chromatic Questions.
18:53 chromatic cotto_work?
18:53 cotto_w0rk What's keeping plobsing from getting a commit bit?
18:54 chromatic +1 to giving him a bit
18:54 chromatic +1 to Gerd too, if he doesn't already have one.
18:54 allison do we have CLAs?
18:55 allison I see one for Gerd
18:55 allison I don't know plobsing's real name
18:55 * particle received CLAs from whiteknight and cotto yesterday
18:55 particle peter lobsinger iirc
18:55 allison that sounds familiar...
18:56 NotFound +1
18:56 chromatic Any concerns about either?
18:56 allison yes, we have a CLA for plobsing too
18:56 * dukeleto is back
18:56 allison do we have mentors for them?
18:56 dukeleto i am willing to mentor
18:57 chromatic Okay, who can flip their commit bits?
18:57 dukeleto chromatic: you?
18:57 dukeleto chromatic: i don't know that i can flip a bit
18:57 whiteknight I'll mentor
18:58 whiteknight (with what little time I have)
18:58 whiteknight co-mentor
18:58 particle docs/project/metacommitters_guide.pod
18:58 Tene The time I've done the most work for Parrot was when I was listed as "Tene will implement this" on the roadmap, and I was asked about it specifically, by name, at #ps meetings.
18:58 Tene That's correlation, not causation, but maybe relevant.
18:59 allison that's helpful data
19:00 chromatic Other questions?
19:00 bubaflub yep.  did ya'll receive my CLA?
19:00 dukeleto what is this weeks priority?
19:00 cotto_w0rk I forgot my other question.
19:01 dukeleto Also, do people want me to continue sending benchmarks to parrot-dev? Are they useful?
19:01 allison dukeleto: the roadmap for next year, and documentation
19:01 whiteknight I find the benchmarks useful
19:01 chromatic The priorities are vtable overrides, documentation, and figuring out the roadmap for 2010.
19:01 chromatic I find the benchmarks useful too, but I still would like to see Callgrind numbers more than times.
19:01 Util q1q
19:02 dukeleto chromatic: i will get you valgrind output for the array_access.pir slowdown
19:02 allison do we have a specific time for Sunday?
19:02 dukeleto what is happening sunday?
19:03 allison maybe a 3 hour block?
19:03 chromatic Three hours sounds useful.
19:04 allison dukeleto: see Will's message to the list about roadmap review workshops
19:05 allison https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ahm1zT​ZwW0VHdFVPSW1BemVEZU82RkFrZDZ5cTdtYXc&hl=en
19:05 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
19:06 allison bubaflub: drop me an email and I'll check on it
19:06 * japhb is bak
19:06 bubaflub allison: thanks.
19:07 dukeleto it would be nice if our meeting was later in the day so that bacek could join in
19:07 dukeleto the sunday meeting, i mean
19:08 allison the same time as parrot sketch would be easy to remember, but is probably too early
19:08 allison how about 2 hours later?
19:08 cotto_w0rk That'll be Monday morning for him, won't it?
19:09 allison that's about as late as I can go for a 3 hour meeting
19:09 allison where is bacek?
19:09 Tene q1q
19:10 cotto_w0rk allison, He's in eastern Australia
19:10 allison so, wouldn't he need earlier in the day?
19:11 allison sounds like we'd better take this to the list
19:11 chromatic Let's do that.
19:11 chromatic Util, you had a question?
19:11 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
19:11 Util Some trig tests on N registers in t/op/inf_nan.t are todo'ed, stating: "cot/coth/acot not implemented for real numbers".
19:12 Util This statement asserts that these trig ops are planned for, just not implemented yet. Is this assertion correct?
19:12 Util (perhaps "implies" is a better word than "asserts" in this audience)
19:13 allison it was correct, but we're now trying to move advanced math ops to dynops
19:13 allison so, if we add them, they should be added as dynops
19:14 Util Does IMCC work with parsing dynops, or must we wait for PIRC?
19:14 chromatic If you load the dynops, it works fine.
19:14 Util KTHX. EOQ
19:14 dukeleto Util: i planned to implement those as dynops and haven't gotten around to it
19:15 bubaflub dukeleto: after a bit of hand holding, i can probably help ya out
19:15 dukeleto bubaflub: sounds good!
19:15 chromatic Tene, question?
19:15 dukeleto q1q
19:16 treed joined #parrotsketch
19:17 Tene chromatic: treed was voicing some significant concerns about his issues as a HLL dev being ignored.
19:18 dukeleto Tene: where were these concerns raised?
19:18 Tene Where should he voice those concerns to get them noticed as pain for an HLL dev?
19:18 treed On an unrelated IRC channel.
19:18 dukeleto Tene: parrot-dev and parrot-users ?
19:18 Tene dukeleto: That's what this question is about.
19:18 treed I can try to make a list and do something about it.
19:18 treed Post it to both of those?
19:19 dukeleto treed: if you are having issues using Parrot because there are bugs, then it is best to cc parrot-dev and parrot-users
19:19 allison parrot users is for user questions
19:19 treed k
19:19 dukeleto treed: if you find out that the discussion only belongs on one of the lists, then you can specialize
19:19 treed I thought parrot users was for end users though?
19:19 treed Not HLL devs?
19:19 allison developer needs should go to parrot-dev
19:19 dukeleto allison: yes, do HLL devs count as users?
19:19 allison well, HLL devs are users
19:20 dukeleto allison: i consider HLL devs "users"
19:20 Tene treed: the "end users" of parrot are HLL devs.
19:20 treed Users of what?
19:20 treed Tene: I mean end users of parrot-based products.
19:20 allison the way to think about it is parrot-users is for "helpdesk" questions
19:20 allison parrot-dev is for development tasks
19:20 dukeleto allison: i agree. so i guess just send it to parrot-users first
19:21 dukeleto treed: if it ends up being a parrot bug, then cc parrot-dev
19:21 dukeleto allison: does that sounds reasonable?
19:21 allison good start
19:22 allison treed: if it's a list of bugs you need us to bump up in priority, then parrot-dev
19:22 chromatic dukeleto, question?
19:22 treed Okay, I'll see if I can put together a list. I can only thing of two issues right now. (Maybe a third depending on if it's a bug (which I think is likely) or me being a retard (not unpossible))
19:23 dukeleto chromatic: How slow is too slow?
19:23 chromatic In what context?
19:23 dukeleto chromatic: i.e. does Parrot have any benchmark guidelines? Are we going to ship 2.0 if we haven't fixed arrays being twice as slow in trunk as 1.8.0 ?
19:24 dukeleto chromatic: my quesiton is more general though
19:24 chromatic We don't have any benchmark guidelines yet.
19:24 dukeleto chromatic: should/do benchmarks effect our releases or priorites in any formal way? or is it just "oh crap, that is slow, we should look into that"
19:25 dukeleto chromatic: i am thinking of writing some benchmark tests
19:25 allison dukeleto: we don't have a hard target of "no release unless we're X fast"
19:26 dukeleto allison: not so much as "we want to be X fast" as "we used to be X fast and now we are X/2"
19:26 dukeleto allison: just wondering if we need some guidelines
19:26 allison in terms of general goals, they're more relative than absolute. Like, "Pynie is faster than CPython"
19:27 allison being faster on, say, a fibonacci benchmark isn't actually terribly helpful
19:27 dukeleto allison: i guess i am trying to put examples/benchmarks to some quantitive use
19:27 allison you know what would be useful? getting us back into the alioth debian benchmark shootout
19:28 allison I've been meaning to look into what that would take
19:28 dukeleto allison: i am talking about array access being twice as slow. that slows down parsing and *everything*
19:28 mikehh bear in mind what pmichaud said about that
19:28 dukeleto allison: i am not talking about optimizing useless scripts
19:28 chromatic dukeleto, what if we started with some metrics (weekly) and evaluated their utility after a few weeks?
19:28 allison dukeleto: right, but we don't have any way of knowing what to test for speed until we find one of those
19:29 dukeleto chromatic: that would be great. i just want us to be thinking about how we should act on benchmark info
19:29 dukeleto allison: well, i just test everything and only tell parrot-dev the bad news ;)
19:29 allison it's really benchmark regression testing, so we start with problems we see now and add more as we find them
19:30 dukeleto allison: yes, i am talking about regression benchmarks, i guess
19:31 chromatic Other questions?  cotto, did you have another?
19:32 dukeleto allison: i can't seem to find out how to add a language to the debian shootout
19:32 allison dukeleto: we used to be on there, then dropped off
19:35 chromatic Is there anything else?  Shall we move the benchmark discussion to #parrot?
19:39 chromatic Sounds like it (or I've netsplit).  Thanks, everyone.
19:39 moritz left #parrotsketch
19:40 cotto_w0rk cotto_w0rk, nothing more from me
19:40 dukeleto ENODISHES
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