Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2009-12-14

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 allison set 3.3, we can change later (moving forward or back)
00:00 allison portable runtime?
00:00 allison I don't see a specific need for this
00:00 japhb What does that mean?
00:00 particle1 like apache portable runtime, or jre
00:00 * pmichaud goes to read the ticket.
00:00 allison suggest dropping from roadmap
00:00 pmichaud drop
00:00 particle1 only runs, does not compile
00:00 particle1 drop it.
00:00 allison yes, apache portable runtime
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00:01 allison should we close the ticket too?
00:01 pmichaud close ticket +1
00:01 allison will note
00:01 allison refactor config?
00:01 chromatic In the interest of expedience, should we leave everything scheduled for 3.0 and later there until our 2.3 review and review now what's left?
00:01 chromatic We're 30 minutes over time.
00:02 Coke +1
00:02 kid51 I doubt we need to face up to refactor config until we're ready to jettison Perl 5
00:02 Coke we're more trying to map out until 2.3; not "until the end of time."
00:02 allison drop task?
00:02 particle1 we'll need a refactored config for lorito/3.0 i think
00:02 particle1 but that's not roadmap-worthy
00:02 allison yes, but that's part of the general task of lorito
00:02 particle1 aye
00:02 pmichaud many things on the roadmap now are things that we thought (at PDS 2008) that people would ask about, and we wanted to point to a plan to provide them.
00:03 allison we can hold the remaining 3.0 tasks for the 2.3 meeting, but I can say most of them aren't going to stay as 3.0
00:03 particle1 agreed.
00:03 pmichaud but a year on, I suspect they aren't being asked about as much, or we'd have to shrug and say "whenever someone has the tuits for them"
00:03 allison ah, we can do this quickly
00:03 kid51 agreed; we've labelled too many as 2.6
00:03 particle1 experience++
00:03 allison nanoparrot moves to 4.0?
00:04 allison drop the "perl 5 dependency" roadmap item
00:04 chromatic Post-lorito.
00:04 pmichaud a different approach:  are there any tasks remaining that we think are pre-3.0 ?
00:04 pmichaud if not, let's not roadmap them now.
00:04 chromatic Bytecode migration, perhaps.
00:04 chromatic Build/install directory cleanup.
00:04 japhb There are several 1.9 and 2.0 items, some of which are suspicious
00:04 particle1 lorito.
00:04 chromatic PARROT_API/deprecation policy change.
00:04 chromatic HLL interop.
00:04 allison we already did deprecation policy change
00:05 pmichaud HLL interop has a new spec, and an implementation in the NQP HLL compiler object.  in some sense it's "landed" I think (to talk about more at next #ps)
00:05 pmichaud (new draft spec, needs allison review/commentary)
00:05 allison okay, will leave that one
00:05 allison I'm moving the "pie in the sky" 3.0 tasks to 4.0
00:06 japhb +1
00:06 pmichaud I would say "3.9 or later"
00:06 allison but at the 2.3 review we should consider dropping some of them
00:06 Tene pmichaud: where in the nqp tree can I see this?  This is the first I've heard about this, and I'd like to look at it.
00:06 allison bytecode testing framework?
00:06 allison keep or ditch?
00:06 allison or move ahead?
00:06 Coke I don't even know what that is.
00:06 pmichaud is it a pain point?  If not, ditch it.
00:06 allison well, we can't currently test bytecode
00:07 mikehh we already do some testing with testr
00:07 kid51 wishlist
00:07 allison because it's platform-specific
00:07 chromatic Why not?
00:07 allison okay, drop from roadmap
00:07 allison chromatic: we can't store pre-generated bytecode and test it
00:07 allison it's infrastructure
00:07 chromatic Cross platform?
00:08 allison but, we should consider removing those bytecode tests that don't work
00:08 pmichaud (Tene: answered on #parrot)
00:08 chromatic We should change that to cross-platform bytecode format.
00:08 allison bytecode migration tool isn't 1.9
00:08 allison when?
00:08 chromatic I don't know when to schedule that.
00:09 chromatic I can write tasks for a naive bytecode migration tool.  It's not awful, mostly SMOP.
00:09 allison is it important for Rakudo *?
00:09 pmichaud no
00:09 allison then let's push it out
00:09 pmichaud Rakudo tends to think in terms of source.
00:10 allison seems like most HLLs do
00:10 allison the bytecode is more like Python .pyc
00:10 pmichaud maybe it'll be important if we start to distribute .pbcs, but it's certainly not a Rakudo* goal
00:10 allison 2.9?
00:10 allison 3.0?
00:10 chromatic 3.0
00:11 pmichaud I'd wait until people request it :)
00:11 japhb pmichaud, +1
00:11 allison prune C data structures?
00:11 pmichaud but 2.9, 3.0, or even later are fine with me :)
00:11 chromatic Ongoing.
00:11 allison do we need that on the roadmap anymore?
00:11 allison seems more general than roadmap
00:11 chromatic No.
00:11 kid51 No, but we need TTs that can point the way.
00:12 allison ok, will keep the ticket, but drop from roadmap)
00:12 kid51 e.g., prune structures in this particular file
00:12 allison though, specific tickets would be better than general one)
00:12 kid51 ... as a way to possibly integrate new C programmers into project
00:12 allison what is "pge, debug and visibility, tools"?
00:13 pmichaud adding debugging and tracing tools to pge
00:13 pmichaud nqp-rx has this already
00:13 pmichaud so, "done."
00:13 particle1 ayep
00:13 allison and is it relevant any more now that pge is deprecated
00:13 pmichaud (can use improvements, but it exists now)
00:13 allison ok
00:13 allison will mark to close
00:13 kid51 close: +1
00:13 pmichaud I'll take the TT
00:13 allison change build directory to match install directories
00:13 pmichaud (and close and explain)
00:13 chromatic Does that help Rakudo?
00:14 allison this is a simple task, but a messy one
00:14 pmichaud Rakudo works exclusively from a parrot install now
00:14 kid51 isn't it already a TT?
00:14 japhb not critical in short term, but does need to be done eventually
00:14 kid51 2.9
00:14 japhb s/need/should/
00:14 allison kid51: yes, IIRC, but someone suggested it as a roadmap item
00:14 pmichaud Rakudo doesn't need it any longer, but we do have an ongoing issue that what we install is not tested
00:15 pmichaud i.e., the parrot binary that is tested is not the parrot binary that is installed
00:15 allison mirroring the directory structure might take care of that
00:15 particle1 this can't get lost. it's important to HLLs.
00:15 allison since it would mean the only difference would be the prefix
00:15 pmichaud 2.9 +1
00:15 allison will mark for 2.9
00:15 particle1 i think it's roadmap-worthy.
00:15 * NotFound going to sleep
00:15 particle1 2.9: +1
00:15 allison last one
00:16 allison mark API functions with PARROT_API
00:16 particle1 oh please yes
00:16 pmichaud 2.6
00:16 japhb particle1: so, no opinion then?  ;-)
00:16 pmichaud (it doesn't seem like a huge task to me)
00:16 allison this is mainly just a matter of going through the list of API functions and adding a tag
00:16 allison (manual editing, but not tricky at all)
00:16 particle1 are all api items subject to deprecation?
00:16 kid51 where is that list of API functions found?
00:16 allison particle: yes
00:16 pmichaud I'd say list it as 2.6, and let's find someone to take ownership of the task.
00:17 pmichaud kid51 would be excellent for this, imo
00:17 particle1 i suggest that api items can be unstable/experimental
00:17 allison docs/embed.pod
00:17 particle1 depending on the subsystem
00:17 allison then they should have a separate tag
00:17 allison or an additional tak
00:17 allison tag
00:17 chromatic I understood that PARROT_API would be "Feel free to use; we're careful not to break them" and PARROT_EXPORT is "Use at your own risk."
00:17 pmichaud chromatic +1
00:18 allison PARROT_EXPORT is "Windows requires us to mark this"
00:18 japhb chromatic, +1
00:18 pmichaud I already put together a list of the Parrot functions that Rakudo wants to have as PARROT_API
00:18 particle1 PARROT_API_EXPERIMENTAL
00:18 allison there will be things marked as both PARROT_EXPORT and PARROT_API
00:18 particle1 let's be clear
00:18 pmichaud (sent it to jhorwitz earlier in the year)
00:19 pmichaud I think that PARROT_API means "stable until deprecated", while everything else is "use at your own risk"
00:19 pmichaud not sure we need an "experimental".  Maybe "PARROT_API_PROPOSED"
00:19 allison pmichaud: yes
00:19 allison (on stable until deprecated)
00:20 chromatic PARROT_API can do the same thing as PARROT_EXPORT, with the additional feature that it does something more.
00:20 allison which doesn't mean "set in stone" just "we guarantee to support the interface until we explicitly deprecate it"
00:20 chromatic I don't want to multiply entities here, when we need to do only two things.
00:20 allison PARROT_API doesn't do anything
00:20 allison and lots of things that are marked PARROT_EXPORT aren't PARROT_API
00:20 chromatic It currently doesn't, but it means "You can call this function in libparrot and it'll keep working."
00:21 japhb allison: yes, but is there a PARROT_API that is not PARROT_EXPORT?
00:21 japhb (That is not a bug)?
00:21 allison at some point, we might use PARROT_API as a way of warning extenders and embedders
00:21 allison (or, the lack of it)
00:21 chromatic We're bikeshedding.
00:21 allison yes
00:21 japhb yes
00:21 pmichaud I propose 2.6
00:21 allison when do we need it?
00:21 allison 2.6 is good
00:21 allison marked
00:22 allison and, that's the end of the list
00:22 particle1 PARROT_API implies PARROT_EXPORT.
00:22 pmichaud it's more of a "let's get it started" task than anything that is a huge time sink
00:22 allison particle: not necessarily
00:22 particle1 congrats, everyone!
00:22 japhb Yay!
00:22 allison thanks all!
00:22 allison this has been hugely helpful
00:22 kid51 I recommend: (1) pmichaud to review 2.0 and 2.3 milestones to make sure we've got rakudo * covered
00:22 japhb Yes, definitely went well
00:23 pmichaud kid51: +1, I shall do that before #ps
00:23 kid51 then everyone else take another look at spreadsheet by Tuesday
00:23 kid51 to see if it still looks plausible when we sober up
00:23 pmichaud you all may assume that if you don't hear anything from me, then I didn't see anything left uncovered
00:23 pmichaud (at this point I don't see anything uncovered :-)
00:25 allison let's wrap for the day
00:25 particle1 mailing list writup of session, anyone?
00:25 particle1 or save that for after parrotsketch?
00:26 mikehh yes
00:26 allison also some followup work in updating the roadmap tickets
00:29 pmichaud I'll do a bit on ticket updating also
00:30 chromatic Thanks, everyone.
00:30 pmichaud anyway, time to feed family here
00:30 pmichaud thanks to everyone for very useful session!
00:30 * mikehh sleep
00:30 japhb ditto that
00:30 japhb (the thank you)
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01:56 dukeleto looks like i missed the meeting
02:08 Whiteknight yeah, you have to check scrollback
02:09 Whiteknight it was a very good meeting though
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09:43 bacek o hai
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