Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-03-02

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Time Nick Message
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18:56 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
18:56 whiteknight * Wrote some blog posts about the state of the exceptions system, after hearing some complaints and reading the docs.
18:56 whiteknight * Fixed Parrot_range_rand to be inclusive of the upper-bound after the issue was identified by Austin
18:56 whiteknight * Fixed some build warnings for Coke, including one which required input from chromatic
18:56 whiteknight * Got commit bit to Kakapo, read over a lot of the code and added a few test cases for super()
18:56 whiteknight * Made a proposal about a new VTABLE that would allow delegation of method lookup to a metaobject, in addition to find_method (which delegates lookup to the invocant). Wrote to the list about it, largely with no direct responses.
18:56 whiteknight * Looked into some issues involving Objects, subclassing, MRO, and vtable overrides, starting to see some common threads in multiple tickets involving these topics.
18:56 whiteknight * Created the new fix_icc_failures branch to fix some of the nagging arithmetic test failures when Parrot builds with ICC. dukeleto and a few other intrepid hackers have downloaded the compiler and may be helping with the work.
18:56 whiteknight * Updated some tickets and answered questions on IRC.
18:56 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
18:56 whiteknight * Would like to put together an experimental branch with the proposed new find_class_method VTABLE to show off it's merit
18:56 whiteknight * Planning for a pure-PIR PIR/PASM compiler library. Highly inspired by NotFound's recent work on winxed. A basic PASM compiler should be relatively simple to do, if performance is not an obstacle.
18:56 whiteknight * More digging into the object metamodel, have some things I want to test out and maybe get fixed.
18:56 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON:
18:56 whiteknight * Would like more feedback on my VTABLE_find_class_method idea.
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20:00 chromatic Fixed a couple of bugs; limited time last week.  That will likely continue this week.
20:01 Coke joined #parrotsketch
20:04 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:04 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:04 mikehh * branch testing
20:04 mikehh * got t/codingstd/perlcritic.t to PASS (with help from kid51++)
20:04 mikehh * codetest now PASSes again
20:04 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:04 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:04 mikehh * looking at cleaning up some tests
20:04 mikehh * documentation
20:04 mikehh .eor
20:05 cotto_work joined #parrotsketch
20:05 NotFound What I did:
20:05 NotFound - parrot
20:05 NotFound * Tested a imcc patch that avoids duplicating STRING constants
20:05 NotFound with the same value/charset/encoding.
20:05 NotFound * New PMC flag manual_attrs
20:05 NotFound - parrot and Winxed:
20:05 NotFound * More work towards HLL written PIR compilers, adding a few methods
20:05 NotFound in the Opcode and OpLib PMC and using in Winxed example 'pirado'.
20:05 NotFound What I will do:
20:05 NotFound * No plan
20:05 NotFound EOR
20:07 Coke branches/rm_cflags/
20:07 Coke - now warnings-clean on GCC.
20:07 Coke - still needs optimize fix (some compilers cannot optimize some files some times). Figure about one more week before this gets done and merged back.
20:07 Coke trunk/
20:07 Coke - move SDL::* into SDL;* and other leftovers in runtime/parrot/library
20:08 Coke - fix TT#1402 - trying to find 'buc' in 'bubuc' would fail, as one of the
20:08 Coke iterators was never reset. mls++ for some speed updates on top of that.
20:08 Coke - fix check for PIR and Perl files when searching t/
20:08 Coke .
20:11 Coke whoops: also: changed http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/4 to show all assigned tickets, not just ones in the state of "assigned". (some folks own new tickets)
20:18 Tene * Worked on exceptions refactor. Making good progress there (for me)
20:18 Tene * Ran into confusing issues with subclasses and attributes. Implemented a workaround for now, but still not sure... Emailed the list, but no responses.
20:18 Tene * Probably going to continue working on exceptions refactor this week.
20:18 Tene * Considering working on rakudo or other HLLs, but I seem to be very busy lately.
20:18 Tene KTHXBAI
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20:20 kurahaupo dukeleto: I was expecting #parrotsketch @ 18h30Z; has it changed?
20:21 cotto_w0rk joined #parrotsketch
20:21 Tene kurahaupo: people pre-post for several reasons.
20:21 Tene then we don't have to go through coordinating and waiting for the reports at the start of the meeting.
20:22 cotto_w0rk It's a very nice change from how we used to run the meeting.
20:23 bacek Done:
20:23 bacek * More work on boehm_gc_2 branch. Stuck for now due some shenanigans in freeze/thaw.
20:23 bacek * Resurrected ops_pct branch.
20:23 bacek Todo:
20:23 bacek * Finish end-to-end skeleton of ops_pct.
20:23 bacek EOR.
20:23 Util # Done:
20:23 Util * Worked more with Amazon EC2, in preparation for a talk at local LUG.
20:23 Util = EC2 looks like a excellent tool for testing CPAN on Perl5-on-Parrot, when the time comes.
20:23 Util * No Parrot time; no Parrot progress.
20:23 Util # Plan to do:
20:24 Util * Submit talks to YAPC::NA.
20:24 Util # Blockers:
20:24 Util * $WORK
20:24 Util .end
20:24 cotto_work # did:
20:24 cotto_work * removed some unused and barely-used ops2c code
20:24 cotto_work * got back into opsc hacking now that bacek++ has it working again
20:24 cotto_work # will do:
20:24 cotto_work * opsc stuff
20:24 cotto_work #blockers
20:24 cotto_work * self
20:24 cotto_work #eor
20:24 cotto_work * the end
20:26 dukeleto What I did: * Got accepted to give a talk about PL/Parrot with David Fetter at PGCon 2010 (20-21 May 2010 at University of Ottawa) * Fiddled with PL/Parrot * Fiddling with compiling Parrot with clang and icc
20:26 dukeleto What I will do: * Prepare for GSoC stuff. If you are interested in being a mentor for Parrot, please ping me. * Get rid of some warnings on Parrot with clang + icc
20:26 dukeleto Blocking on: * 42
20:26 dukeleto EOF
20:27 dukeleto lets try that again
20:27 dukeleto What I did: * Got accepted to give a talk about PL/Parrot with David Fetter at PGCon 2010 (20-21 May 2010 at University of Ottawa) * Fiddled with PL/Parrot * Fiddling with compiling Parrot with clang and icc
20:27 dukeleto What I will do: * Prepare for GSoC stuff. If you are interested in being a mentor for Parrot, please ping me. * Get rid of some warnings on Parrot with clang + icc
20:27 dukeleto Blocking on: * 42
20:27 dukeleto EOF
20:27 * dukeleto fails
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20:32 bacek o hai
20:32 NotFound Hola
20:32 whiteknight hello
20:32 Util Hello
20:33 mikehh hello
20:33 cotto_mibbit hi
20:33 bubaflub hello
20:33 dukeleto 'ello
20:33 chromatic Hello.
20:33 chromatic Let's review last week's tasks.
20:33 chromatic How goes the PCC refactor?
20:33 whiteknight nil
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20:34 bacek looks like no one touched it
20:34 chromatic Any theories on what's blocking it?
20:35 whiteknight ENOALLISON
20:35 chromatic Is there a volunteer to talk to her and figure out how to coordinate work on it?
20:35 whiteknight I'd be happy to, if it can be done wthout her
20:36 chromatic I think it can, but I don't think anyone knows quite what to do.
20:36 chromatic I've read the wiki page and I didn't know where to start.
20:36 bacek It can be done. But my scars from previous PCC refactoring still fresh.
20:36 whiteknight I have a vague idea, but more input would be nice
20:36 chromatic Okay, Whiteknight gets deputized to break things into tasks and dole them out.
20:37 chromatic Any other volunteers to help with that branch?
20:37 whiteknight done.
20:37 bacek whiteknight, I can give you some input for PCC refactor.
20:37 mikehh testing and that type of stuff
20:37 whiteknight bacek: awesome. in #parrot
20:38 chromatic HLL subclassing and MMD... I fixed one bug and could use help with another.  There's an odd interaction between vtables and MMD for math operations.
20:38 chromatic I've put that aside briefly though because TT #389 really needs fixed.
20:39 chromatic How about other deprecations?
20:39 dukeleto chromatic: if you can send some examples to -dev about the bug with HLL subclassing and MMD, i can attempt to write more tests, if needed
20:39 whiteknight yeah, more info about the bug will put more eyes on it
20:40 chromatic Will do.
20:40 Coke I have some "ops to dynops" in my todo list. will probably not get to them until after rm_cflags branch is done.
20:40 bacek Coke, ship it!
20:40 chromatic Is that deprecation work fairly simple work, Coke?
20:41 dukeleto Coke: i refactored the RNG ops to dynops, so I can help with that if needed
20:41 Coke chromatic: pretty much, yes. anyone can chip in, just note on the ticket which ones you're taking, or ping me.
20:41 chromatic Okay.
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20:41 Coke allison!
20:41 chromatic Let's set priorities for the coming week.  The next release is in two weeks.  Which tasks and branches must we land before then?
20:41 allison Coke!
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20:42 whiteknight I think we can get the ICC branch finished and merged by the release
20:42 whiteknight at least, that's the hope
20:42 Coke I'd realllly like to see rm_cflags done. =-)
20:42 whiteknight ditto
20:43 chromatic I'd like to get TT #389 and the MMD bugs fixed.
20:43 chromatic Any hope of the PCC refactors?
20:43 * Tene here now
20:44 allison chromatic: possiby
20:44 allison I'm on my way home, and could work on it this weekend
20:44 chromatic whiteknight already volunteered to pick your brain and dole out tasks to a few of us.
20:44 allison this round will be smallest possible set of changes that can merge
20:45 allison my brain is already picked and documented on the subject
20:45 Tene Oh, tt389 still isn't done?  I mentally filed that under "fixed and over" somehow.
20:45 Tene I'll add 389 to my tasklist for this week.
20:45 allison so, anyone can jump in, I just figured they weren't motivated
20:45 allison perhaps we can pick a day for co-hacking on it?
20:45 whiteknight I'm plenty motivated. Still feel like the task is daunting
20:45 allison say, saturday?
20:46 whiteknight Saturday is good for me
20:46 Tene chromatic: is there anything about 389 that won't be revealed by 'make test' in the branch, or building rakudo against the branch or whatever?
20:46 chromatic It's not motivation on my part.  I can't figure out what to do from your task list.
20:46 allison whiteknight: don't think of every possible task, just the smallest possible set for progress
20:46 allison chromatic: okay, is it lack of background on the tasks?
20:46 dukeleto allison: i think there is a disconnect on PCC stuff. i think a hackathon to get it done would be really useful
20:47 dukeleto q1q
20:47 whiteknight q1q
20:47 Tene saturday is good for me, I think.
20:47 allison as in, would it help if I sat on IRC so people can ask questions, get specific tasks, and get followup on what's not clear?
20:47 chromatic I don't know if it's a lack of background.  More like a lack of concrete direction to "How do I know if I've finished that one?"
20:47 whiteknight very helpful
20:48 Tene Doed the branch have the order of the ops switched in imcc yet?
20:48 allison sounds like a mini-hackathon is in order
20:49 allison I'll be around wed-friday too for anyone who wants an early start
20:49 chromatic Any objections to making that hackathon our primary weekly objective?
20:49 allison seems reasonable
20:49 whiteknight +1
20:49 mikehh +1
20:49 allison Tene: the branch has no changes yet, probably needs to be scrapped and rebranched
20:49 chromatic That's good, because it's one of two big things that Rakudo * needs for April.
20:50 chromatic Fixing TT #389 is another, because it's an annoyance they have to work around.
20:50 allison (my travel schedule has been bad since PyCon)
20:50 Tene what's the other?
20:50 chromatic The other big thing Rakudo * needs is a better GC.
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20:50 chromatic If we can get to the sweepless GC after the PCC refactors....
20:50 bacek Speaking of which...
20:51 dukeleto +1 to a hackathon weekly objective
20:51 Tene my expectation for the progress of the branch is that we first break everything by reordering the ops, and then we pick up the pieces.
20:51 bacek Sweepless GC will require additional housekeeping for VTABLE_destroy handling.
20:51 chromatic I don't think it will, bacek but we can talk about that later.
20:52 chromatic Objections to TT #389 as the other priority for the week?
20:52 Tene chromatic: none.
20:52 Tene q1q
20:53 chromatic Let's move on to questions.
20:53 chromatic dukeleto?
20:54 dukeleto chromatic: I would like to volunteer to try to organize hackathons more regularly, and at some IRL conferences
20:54 chromatic You just did.
20:54 Coke yah, no one is going to vote against that.
20:55 mikehh excellent
20:55 dukeleto chromatic: I am organizing the 24hr Hacker Lounge at Open Source Bridge, and we really should have a Parrot Developer Hackathon there. It is going to be in an awesome space
20:55 bacek What about updating trac homepage to reflect "Weekly status"?
20:55 dukeleto chromatic: and since I just found out I am going to PGCON2010, that is another good place for one
20:55 Coke bacek: having to do timed updates on trac is going to fail.
20:55 Coke (and already has.)
20:56 * dukeleto crowns himself as Czar of Hackathons
20:56 Coke I would rather see folks post stuff on the news feed on www.parrot.org
20:57 dukeleto Is there any interest in having the @parrotvm twitter/identi.ca account updates shown on parrot.org ?
20:59 chromatic +1
20:59 allison dukeleto: as a sidebar?
20:59 bacek +0.05
21:00 allison twitter bits tend to be too meaningless for main features
21:00 dukeleto allison: yes, something unobtrusive
21:00 cotto_work +meh
21:00 allison dukeleto: sure
21:00 dukeleto allison: ok, i will make a TT
21:01 chromatic whiteknight, your question?
21:01 whiteknight Sent an email about this to the list: Would like to add a new vtable "find_class_method" that searches for a method on the Class or other metaobject, unlike find_method which searches for the method on the invocant.
21:01 whiteknight we could improve a lot of encapsulation and add cool new features with this
21:01 whiteknight fix MRO, allow new types of objects in MROs, etc
21:02 chromatic -1 from me, see my message to the list
21:02 whiteknight I'll reply to that on the list
21:04 whiteknight other feedback, here or on list will be appreciated. EOQ
21:04 chromatic Tene, question?
21:04 Tene I haven't seen any response to my mail to the list.  Is the answer just "Yes, subclasses of PMCs don't work right, ignore it and work around it for now."?
21:04 NotFound q1q
21:05 allison Tene: some subclasses of PMCs work, some don't. some subclassing problems can be fixed easily, some require more work
21:06 Tene Okay.
21:07 allison Tene: you may be running into the limitation that PIR subclasses can only access int, num, str, or PMC attributes of C PMCs
21:07 allison would have to look at it further
21:07 * Tene nods.
21:07 allison but in general, we're trying to fix these problems with subclassing as we run into them
21:08 Tene I posted example code to the list, and a description of the problem.  Depending on how I access it, an ATTR set on a subclass instance goes to one of two different places.  Two sets of attrs, looks like.
21:08 allison it may be direct access to attributes somewhere instead of using the ATTR macros
21:09 allison especially, some of the code outside the exception PMC that accesses the exception PMC
21:09 Tene It does use the ATTR macros.
21:09 Tene This is with just getting and setting attributes.  The test case doesn't throw, doesn't use handlers, just instantiates and sets and gets attrs.
21:09 allison ah, more fundamental bug then
21:10 allison will leave it open on my browser and take a look tomorrow
21:10 Tene Exception.pmc has a 1-line get_pmc_keyed that dispatches to get_attr_str.  using getattribute uses one set of attrs, using keyed which calls get_attr uses the other.
21:10 * allison drops out to hop on a plane
21:10 Tene Okay.  I'm done, then.
21:10 Tene Have a fun flight.
21:11 Coke twitter block added to parrot.org
21:11 chromatic NotFound, your question?
21:11 NotFound http://nopaste.snit.ch/19839
21:12 chromatic +1
21:12 cotto_work +1
21:13 NotFound The other day some people said that will be good as an option, but that will be a lot more work.
21:13 chromatic What rationale is there for making it an option?
21:13 NotFound Don't know.
21:13 chromatic I can't imagine a downside.
21:14 chromatic Other comments?
21:14 cotto_w0rk joined #parrotsketch
21:14 NotFound Well, I suppose we can tentatively commit it and revert if some problem appears.
21:14 Coke +1
21:15 NotFound Then I'll open a ticket about it and later commit, EOQ
21:19 chromatic Other questions?
21:20 chromatic Okay, let's call this meeting over.  Thanks everyone.
21:20 bacek No other blocker/wishes from Rakudo*?
21:21 chromatic Those were the big December goals.
21:21 * dukeleto goes back into #parrot
21:21 Coke ~~
21:21 dukeleto left #parrotsketch
21:23 Coke drupal--
21:23 Coke ww
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